| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jonathon" |
| Date: |
24 Dec 2003 04:37:19 PM |
| Object: |
Proof of God |
"NiJof" <nijof@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031224030546.04203.00001715@mb-m29.aol.com...
I have experienced the following things that prove to me that there is
non-material reality:
"Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said:
"one CAN'T believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice" said the Queen."
It is self-evident that a non-material reality exists. Our imagination
is non-material and has a measurable effect on reality. An idea
can change the world.
Patterns of Unreality
http://www.calresco.org/lucas/pattern.htm
Perhaps the question should be framed more carefully.
Is there an intelligence, a creator, that is beyond our ability to
comprehend or experience?
Is there something more?
We are grossly limited by our biology and physics in understanding
and experiencing all that is possible. In addition, what is impossible
today may be possible tomorrow since each step we take through
state space enlarges our options and creates new possibilities.
We cannot know or imagine all the possibilities so there is, by definition
....something more.
The question then becomes, what is it?
There most certainly is a creative force that we are
unable to completely grasp. We can see that the
complexity and ...randomness... in Nature produces
a whole far greater than the sum of it's parts. Our
intelligence is proof, so is a quick glance out your
window. The impossibility of completely quantifying this
natural force of collective/random creation should be
considered a given ...and evidence of design.
So what is the design? Is it a inherent property
of the universe, or is it the gift of some being?
Or both?
You are looking for God in the wrong way. You seem
to look at the mysterious or unexplainable and
imagine an equally mysterious being is responsible
While others look at the unexplainable and merely
say .."it will be ...someday".
Your way leads to mysterious concepts, their way
leads to a false and arrogant sense of certainty.
These questions can only be answered by looking
closely at what is ...real, what we are and what
produced us. At what ...process...is responsible for
taking the random parts and creating something far
greater than their sum. In order to comprehend the design.
Then one can gauge whether that design is an act
of intelligence or a property.
Or both.
"An Introduction to Complex Systems
Torsten Reil, Department of Zoology, University of Oxford"
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~quee0818/complexity/complexity.html
I have concluded that it is clear that Nature has no
upper limit. Nature conspires to create something
far greater then Her parts, in forms unimaginable
in advance.
Then what would be possible when each of us, each
separate intelligent part, are swept up by natural processes
into one greater collective intelligence?
Wouldn't that global intelligence, that sweeping collective wisdom
be as far above our ...single individual awareness... as we are
above a tree?
Of course it would.
Nature expands into the possible as fast as it can. It finds a way to
reproduce itself into ever greater 'copies'. Of course the universe
will evolve into a living entity that reproduces itself as
naturally as we do.
PRELIMINARY STATEMENT OF A CANDIDATE "LAW"
http://www.santafe.edu/sfi/People/kauffman/Lecture-5.html
Since this universe most certainly can and will evolve the
power of creation, we will be the intelligent and benign
Gods to the universe that We give birth to. They cannot
know us, so we cannot know God. We can only
know that She must exist.
"I Never saw a moor,
I never saw the sea;
Yet know I how the heather looks,
And what a wave must be.
I never spoke with God,
Nor visited in heaven;
Yet certain am I of the spot
As if the chart were given."
There is no logical contradiction in stating knowledge
of the unknowable. Nature is tangible, intelligent, benign
and unknowable. It ..is a logical contradiction to 'believe'
there is ...nothing more. Atheists are those that have
yet to properly observe our ...relationship... to reality.
Of course there is an intelligent and benign God.
God is made in ...our image.
To find Her look ...carefully at Nature, and carefully
at yourself. Then compare the two!
They will compare as each of us do ...to God.
Jonathan
"The Brain is wider than the sky,
For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside.
The brain is deeper than the sea,
For, hold them, blue to blue,
The one the other will absorb,
As sponges, buckets do.
The brain is just the weight of God,
For, lift them, pound for pound,
And they will differ, if they do,
As syllable from sound."
Poems by Emily Dickinson
s
A woman being able to tell me what someone told me inside a closed car
in a language she did not know, what kind of person and in what state I was
communicating with by email and what people several states away were
telling my girlfriend.
My car go into a spin at 75 MPH and come out unharmed.
For a while, being able to give people psychic and astrology readings
they said were precise. Then that ability totally went away.
Talking about the black box, the Rock of Mohammad, as the soul that
exist in the back of the head, the image that came to me in a
meditation, then having my eyes fall on a little black rock in between
the wall and the carpet. Saying to the people I was talking to, "and
here is the black box."
Waking up, feeling the presence of my ex-girlfriend around me. Going
to the computer and seeing an attack she had just posted, after being
away from the Internet for a year.
Dreaming about a kind of person and running into a person who looked
just like that the next day, with that person giving me a smile.
A woman being able to see the spiritual presence of my ex-girlfriends,
including their age and color of their hair and eyes.
Meditating 24 hours in the snow dressed lightly while praying to the
holy spirit and not getting sick. Swimming in ice-cold water while
praying to the holy spirit, then standing naked in the snow for 30
minutes with my arms raised saying "I love the holy spirit", and not
getting sick. Then getting sick after 20 minutes of walking naked in
the snow while not praying to anything a few days later.
Hearing my beloved's voice and God's voice instructing me on the number of
pushups to do. Realizing later the numerological wisdom of these
numbers.
Feeling situation in different countries and then reading news stories
confirming my intuitions.
Having my brain make clicking sounds that other people could hear
while doing spiritual activity.
Seeing the presence of someone I was in psychic contact with near a
show of fireworks and having her confirm later that she had seen the
fireworks in spirit while being a thousand miles away.
Feeling the presence of that same person in distress and later hearing
on the phone that she was in fact in distress.
I experienced I Ching repeatedly give me correct answers and carry me
through dangerous situations.
I did an invocation of Agni, and the next day a person watching the
news told me that there were fires around the world.
I have seen a woman praying to Jesus that she should find something
and being able to find it immediately when everyone else did not know
how to find it.
I see master numbers all the time. In order to record that this is not
simply the case of chance occurences, I wrote down all the times I
looked at a clock and what I got. The number of master numbers was
statistically above chance, even though during that time I looked at
the clock far more often than I do usually because I was conscious of
keeping time.
I saw before me many beautiful women in a vision and voice told me to
pick what kind of woman I want, and I finally decided "The one who
produces the best art." I ran into the woman who produced the most
magnificent art I've ever seen, and we mutually fell in love.
Such things could not have evolved if matter was the only part of the universe.
Therefore there is God.
.
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| User: "John Baker" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
24 Dec 2003 05:15:10 PM |
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"Jonathon" <three@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1vSdnZlN79PjiHeiRVn-uA@giganews.com...
<yawn>
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
24 Dec 2003 05:18:36 PM |
|
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"Jonathon" <three@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1vSdnZlN79PjiHeiRVn-uA@giganews.com...
"NiJof" <nijof@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031224030546.04203.00001715@mb-m29.aol.com...
I have experienced the following things that prove to me that there is
non-material reality:
"Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said:
"one CAN'T believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice" said the Queen."
It is self-evident that a non-material reality exists. Our imagination
is non-material and has a measurable effect on reality.
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material. Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical matrix is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that constitute
ideas.
An idea
can change the world.
That is true.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
24 Dec 2003 06:38:38 PM |
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"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
"Jonathon" <three@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1vSdnZlN79PjiHeiRVn-uA@giganews.com...
"NiJof" <nijof@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031224030546.04203.00001715@mb-m29.aol.com...
I have experienced the following things that prove to me that there is
non-material reality:
"Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said:
"one CAN'T believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice" said the Queen."
It is self-evident that a non-material reality exists. Our imagination
is non-material and has a measurable effect on reality.
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material. Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical matrix
is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.) We all have heard of the saying
that one has reached "the light at the end of the tunnel."
Well, NDE's are where that idea came from.
An idea
can change the world.
That is true.
And it is immaterial.
Merry Christmas,
Mark
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
24 Dec 2003 09:53:28 PM |
|
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"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bsdbin$jfj@library2.airnews.net...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
"Jonathon" <three@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1vSdnZlN79PjiHeiRVn-uA@giganews.com...
"NiJof" <nijof@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031224030546.04203.00001715@mb-m29.aol.com...
I have experienced the following things that prove to me that there
is
non-material reality:
"Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said:
"one CAN'T believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice" said the Queen."
It is self-evident that a non-material reality exists. Our imagination
is non-material and has a measurable effect on reality.
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical
matrix
is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
No, we have stories from people describing oxygen deprivation of the brain.
Fighter pilots under high G's experience the same thing.
We all have heard of the saying
that one has reached "the light at the end of the tunnel."
Yes. Human brains are pretty much all wired the same general way, it's not
surprising that similar stories are told when brains are deprived of oxygen.
Well, NDE's are where that idea came from.
Perhaps, but so what? Oxygen deprivation does not make ideas immaterial.
An idea
can change the world.
That is true.
And it is immaterial.
Neither the idea nor the world are immaterial.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 12:16:38 AM |
|
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"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:HuSdndV9H-XLwneiRVn-ug@io.com...
"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bsdbin$jfj@library2.airnews.net...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
"Jonathon" <three@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1vSdnZlN79PjiHeiRVn-uA@giganews.com...
"NiJof" <nijof@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031224030546.04203.00001715@mb-m29.aol.com...
I have experienced the following things that prove to me that
there
is
non-material reality:
"Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said:
"one CAN'T believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice" said the Queen."
It is self-evident that a non-material reality exists. Our
imagination
is non-material and has a measurable effect on reality.
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical
matrix
is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people
surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
No, we have stories from people describing oxygen deprivation of the
brain.
Fighter pilots under high G's experience the same thing.
If a fighter pilot had time to travel down a tunnel to a light, and see his
body beneath him, his plane would crash.
We all have heard of the saying
that one has reached "the light at the end of the tunnel."
Yes. Human brains are pretty much all wired the same general way, it's not
surprising that similar stories are told when brains are deprived of
oxygen.
You think a three dimensional, uniform reality is the way a mind is wired?
It is no dream. The people experiencing these things insist that they were
fully awake and that it really happened.
Well, NDE's are where that idea came from.
Perhaps, but so what? Oxygen deprivation does not make ideas immaterial.
An idea
can change the world.
That is true.
And it is immaterial.
Neither the idea nor the world are immaterial.
Then how does the idea move from person to person, and maybe even to the
whole world, if it is material?
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 02:31:08 AM |
|
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"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bsdv94$rh4@library1.airnews.net...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:HuSdndV9H-XLwneiRVn-ug@io.com...
"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bsdbin$jfj@library2.airnews.net...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
"Jonathon" <three@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1vSdnZlN79PjiHeiRVn-uA@giganews.com...
"NiJof" <nijof@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031224030546.04203.00001715@mb-m29.aol.com...
I have experienced the following things that prove to me that
there
is
non-material reality:
"Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said:
"one CAN'T believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice" said the Queen."
It is self-evident that a non-material reality exists. Our
imagination
is non-material and has a measurable effect on reality.
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical
matrix
is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that
constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people
surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
No, we have stories from people describing oxygen deprivation of the
brain.
Fighter pilots under high G's experience the same thing.
If a fighter pilot had time to travel down a tunnel to a light, and see
his
body beneath him, his plane would crash.
I'm sure some have, but others have not. The effect can safely be generated
pretty much at will in a centrifuge.
The test subjects describe the same thing, a tunnel of light and a feeling
of well being. Some even describe figures.
We all have heard of the saying
that one has reached "the light at the end of the tunnel."
Yes. Human brains are pretty much all wired the same general way, it's
not
surprising that similar stories are told when brains are deprived of
oxygen.
You think a three dimensional, uniform reality is the way a mind is wired?
The brain evolved in a three dimensional uniform reality, so yes, I would
expect it to be wired that way.
It is no dream. The people experiencing these things insist that they
were
fully awake and that it really happened.
I'm sure they think that. So what?
Well, NDE's are where that idea came from.
Perhaps, but so what? Oxygen deprivation does not make ideas immaterial.
An idea
can change the world.
That is true.
And it is immaterial.
Neither the idea nor the world are immaterial.
Then how does the idea move from person to person, and maybe even to the
whole world, if it is material?
An idea moves from person to person by purely mechanical means. Sound is a
purely mechanical and materialistic process carried out by compression waves
in a physical medium: air for example. Writing is impressed upon a physical
matrix called paper, or displayed by excited electrons on your screen.
Neither speech nor writing is immaterial.
Did you think ideas just magically moved around?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 03:22:14 AM |
|
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"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:VpqdnSMV09v2PXei4p2dnA@io.com...
"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bsdv94$rh4@library1.airnews.net...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:HuSdndV9H-XLwneiRVn-ug@io.com...
"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bsdbin$jfj@library2.airnews.net...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
"Jonathon" <three@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1vSdnZlN79PjiHeiRVn-uA@giganews.com...
"NiJof" <nijof@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031224030546.04203.00001715@mb-m29.aol.com...
I have experienced the following things that prove to me that
there
is
non-material reality:
"Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said:
"one CAN'T believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice" said the Queen."
It is self-evident that a non-material reality exists. Our
imagination
is non-material and has a measurable effect on reality.
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical
matrix
is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that
constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people
surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
No, we have stories from people describing oxygen deprivation of the
brain.
Fighter pilots under high G's experience the same thing.
If a fighter pilot had time to travel down a tunnel to a light, and see
his
body beneath him, his plane would crash.
I'm sure some have, but others have not. The effect can safely be
generated
pretty much at will in a centrifuge.
Sure, with the tunnel, the light at the end of the tunnel, with seeing the
body below, and all in vivid detail. A centrifuge cannot create such detail
in what one experiences.
The test subjects describe the same thing, a tunnel of light and a feeling
of well being. Some even describe figures.
They were probably people trying to disprove NDEs, like you, by imagining
that they were seeing these things.
We all have heard of the saying
that one has reached "the light at the end of the tunnel."
Yes. Human brains are pretty much all wired the same general way, it's
not
surprising that similar stories are told when brains are deprived of
oxygen.
You think a three dimensional, uniform reality is the way a mind is
wired?
The brain evolved in a three dimensional uniform reality, so yes, I would
expect it to be wired that way.
But the brain cannot create a three dimensional reality like the one you see
before you right now. Except in ghosly apparitions. Not what NDE people
see.
They see perfectly ordered three dimensional reality, and testify to it.
It is no dream. The people experiencing these things insist that they
were
fully awake and that it really happened.
I'm sure they think that. So what?
They know the difference between a dream like world and reality.
You do have a point though. The "other side" (being dead) is almost a dream
by itself. No matter how real it is.
Well, NDE's are where that idea came from.
Perhaps, but so what? Oxygen deprivation does not make ideas
immaterial.
An idea
can change the world.
That is true.
And it is immaterial.
Neither the idea nor the world are immaterial.
Then how does the idea move from person to person, and maybe even to the
whole world, if it is material?
An idea moves from person to person by purely mechanical means. Sound is a
purely mechanical and materialistic process carried out by compression
waves
in a physical medium: air for example. Writing is impressed upon a
physical
matrix called paper, or displayed by excited electrons on your screen.
Neither speech nor writing is immaterial.
Did you think ideas just magically moved around?
You seem to think ideas are mere brain circuitry.
I think ideas are spirit.
I think they would have to be spirit to be able to move so pliably from one
person to another.
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 12:36:32 PM |
|
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"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bsea54$v33@library1.airnews.net...
I'm sure some have, but others have not. The effect can safely be
generated
pretty much at will in a centrifuge.
Sure, with the tunnel, the light at the end of the tunnel, with seeing the
body below, and all in vivid detail. A centrifuge cannot create such
detail
in what one experiences.
The ones that experience it say it does, you deny it. Where is your
evidence?
The test subjects describe the same thing, a tunnel of light and a
feeling
of well being. Some even describe figures.
They were probably people trying to disprove NDEs, like you, by imagining
that they were seeing these things.
Ah, it's a conspiracy.
But the brain cannot create a three dimensional reality like the one you
see
before you right now. Except in ghosly apparitions. Not what NDE people
see.
They see perfectly ordered three dimensional reality, and testify to it.
You haven't had a lot of dreams have you?
I'd also like to know where the 3D reality of yours is formed if not in the
brain.
It is no dream. The people experiencing these things insist that they
were
fully awake and that it really happened.
So do the alien abductees. When waking I frequently hear sounds coming from
the other room that are not there. > > I'm sure they think that. So what?
They know the difference between a dream like world and reality.
<snip>
You seem to think ideas are mere brain circuitry.
I think ideas are spirit.
I think they would have to be spirit to be able to move so pliably from
one
person to another.
So the dog who gets the idea to go out side to ***** now has a spirit?
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
26 Dec 2003 12:17:29 AM |
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 03:22:14 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:VpqdnSMV09v2PXei4p2dnA@io.com...
I'm sure some have, but others have not. The effect can safely be generated
pretty much at will in a centrifuge.
Sure, with the tunnel, the light at the end of the tunnel, with seeing the
body below, and all in vivid detail. A centrifuge cannot create such detail
in what one experiences.
Cannot? It has been, so "cannot" sounds like a recalcitrant child.
The test subjects describe the same thing, a tunnel of light and a feeling
of well being. Some even describe figures.
They were probably people trying to disprove NDEs
No, they were pilots not thinking of NDEs at all.
Your "cannot"s and "probably"s are pretty ludicrous when seen against
reality.
The brain evolved in a three dimensional uniform reality, so yes, I would
expect it to be wired that way.
But the brain cannot create a three dimensional reality like the one you see
before you right now. Except in ghosly apparitions. Not what NDE people
see.
But it can, and does, regularly, create the illusion of a three
dimensional reality.
They see perfectly ordered three dimensional reality, and testify to it.
So do those experiencing hallucinations, high-G forces and dreams.
It is no dream. The people experiencing these things insist that they were
fully awake and that it really happened.
I'm sure they think that. So what?
They know the difference between a dream like world and reality.
So do those experiencing hallucinations, high-G forces and dreams.
Even though they're wrong.
You do have a point though. The "other side" (being dead) is almost a dream
by itself. No matter how real it is.
Being dead and being near dead aren't the same thing.
You seem to think ideas are mere brain circuitry.
Ideas are chemical reactions IN the brain.
I think ideas are spirit.
Think what you like - it doesn't change reality. We can SEE the
chemical changes taking place due to thinking.
I think they would have to be spirit to be able to move so pliably from one
person to another.
Ideas are immaterial so they don't "move".
--
"If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his father, mother, wife, brothers, and sisters and even himself, he cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:26
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Johnny Bravo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 04:54:50 AM |
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 03:22:14 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote:
I'm sure some have, but others have not. The effect can safely be
generated
pretty much at will in a centrifuge.
Sure, with the tunnel, the light at the end of the tunnel, with seeing the
body below, and all in vivid detail. A centrifuge cannot create such detail
in what one experiences.
From a study of 50 near death experiences by Kevin Williams.
69% experienced overwhelming love
65% experienced mental telepathy
62% experienced a life review
56% experienced a tremendous ecstasy
56% saw God
46% were given unlimited knowledge
46% experienced different afterlife levels
46% were told it was not their time to die
44% were shown some aspect of the future
42% went through a tunnel
37% met Jesus Christ
31% received and remembered forgotten knowledge
27% experienced fear
21% described it as a "homecoming"
21% were told of their past lives
19% experienced some form of hell
17% saw a "City of light"
13% saw a "Temple of Knowledge"
10% saw spirits dwelling among living people
Got any other made up statistics about NDE's you'd like to share?
--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
26 Dec 2003 12:10:26 AM |
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:16:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:HuSdndV9H-XLwneiRVn-ug@io.com...
Fighter pilots under high G's experience the same thing.
If a fighter pilot had time to travel down a tunnel to a light, and see his
body beneath him, his plane would crash.
The bottom of the loop gives you a long time to be out.
You think a three dimensional, uniform reality is the way a mind is wired?
It is no dream. The people experiencing these things insist that they were
fully awake and that it really happened.
People experiencing acid trips insist that they were real too.
--
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my
contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him, the
spinal cord would fully suffice."
- Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Johnny Bravo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 01:14:17 AM |
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:16:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote:
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people
surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
No, we have stories from people describing oxygen deprivation of the
brain.
Fighter pilots under high G's experience the same thing.
If a fighter pilot had time to travel down a tunnel to a light, and see his
body beneath him, his plane would crash.
The tunnel effect is a well documented side effect of high G forces
which deprive the brain of oxygen. Been there, done that; in a T-38
trainer, didn't get a t-shirt but did get some really cool visual
effects for high positive and low negative Gs.
I know you are completely clueless about this but you can turn the
plane in a horizontal circle and experience this, no contact with the
ground required.
--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
24 Dec 2003 09:51:08 PM |
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And so upon Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0600 didst Mark Earnest speak
thusly:
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.) We all have heard of the saying
that one has reached "the light at the end of the tunnel."
Well, NDE's are where that idea came from.
No, actually, known chemical reactions in the brain are where that came
from.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
24 Dec 2003 09:37:42 PM |
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material. Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical matrix is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
Then you haven't seen evidence that NDEs are nothing more than
cerebral oxygen deprivation.
We all have heard of the saying
that one has reached "the light at the end of the tunnel."
Not everyone who almost dies (or dies and comes back to life)
experiences that.
Well, NDE's are where that idea came from.
Sorry, no. The phrase is older than documented NDEs.
--
"Every sensible man, every honest man, must hold the christian sect in horror. 'But what
shall we substitute in its place?' you say. What? A ferocious animal has sucked the
blood of my relatives. I tell you to rid yourselves of this beast and you ask me what
you shall put in its place?" - Voltaire
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 12:09:04 AM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:o8jkuv08n7m1m8v6r2eiouslvoub7ooujd@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical
matrix is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
NDE is, as stated in the parenthesis a NEAR death experience.
The only "documentation" is something told afterwards and perhaps written
down. It has all the validity of me telling you about the dream I had last
night.
There are two types of "death" recognized in the medical world. Clinical and
biological.
When the heart stops you are clinically dead and with luck may be revived if
at least CPR is started with in about 3- 6 minutes (assuming a body at or
near room temperature) After 6 - 8 minutes with no circulation to the brain
you are biologically dead and you will not recover.
Cold will stretch this a bit but it's very hard to get a pulse or find a
heart beat in a very cold person.
Cold water immersion syndrome is the other situation where a person may
survive but that is very rare.
.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 12:35:24 AM |
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"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote in message
news:4avGb.237773$Ec1.8359388@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:o8jkuv08n7m1m8v6r2eiouslvoub7ooujd@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical
matrix is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that
constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people
surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
NDE is, as stated in the parenthesis a NEAR death experience.
The only "documentation" is something told afterwards and perhaps written
down. It has all the validity of me telling you about the dream I had
last
night.
The experiences are too uniform for them to be mere dreams.
And if you examined the experience, the person will insist it was no dream,
but that it was really happening.
There are two types of "death" recognized in the medical world. Clinical
and
biological.
When the heart stops you are clinically dead and with luck may be revived
if
at least CPR is started with in about 3- 6 minutes (assuming a body at or
near room temperature) After 6 - 8 minutes with no circulation to the
brain
you are biologically dead and you will not recover.
Cold will stretch this a bit but it's very hard to get a pulse or find a
heart beat in a very cold person.
Cold water immersion syndrome is the other situation where a person may
survive but that is very rare.
Death is death. There is no different kinds of it. Either you are on the
"other side" or you are not.
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 02:35:49 AM |
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"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bse0c9$v4l@library1.airnews.net...
"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote in message
news:4avGb.237773$Ec1.8359388@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:o8jkuv08n7m1m8v6r2eiouslvoub7ooujd@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical
matrix is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that
constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people
surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
NDE is, as stated in the parenthesis a NEAR death experience.
The only "documentation" is something told afterwards and perhaps
written
down. It has all the validity of me telling you about the dream I had
last
night.
The experiences are too uniform for them to be mere dreams.
They're not dreams, they're the brain starting to shut down from oxygen
deprivation. That's a purely mechanical process of the human brain that
seems to be shared by everyone.
And if you examined the experience, the person will insist it was no
dream,
but that it was really happening.
Hallucinations are like that.
There are two types of "death" recognized in the medical world. Clinical
and
biological.
When the heart stops you are clinically dead and with luck may be
revived
if
at least CPR is started with in about 3- 6 minutes (assuming a body at
or
near room temperature) After 6 - 8 minutes with no circulation to the
brain
you are biologically dead and you will not recover.
Cold will stretch this a bit but it's very hard to get a pulse or find a
heart beat in a very cold person.
Cold water immersion syndrome is the other situation where a person may
survive but that is very rare.
Death is death. There is no different kinds of it. Either you are on the
"other side" or you are not.
That's what he's calling biological death. The kind you don't come back
from. The kind you don't get NDE stories from.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 03:12:52 AM |
|
|
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:hKGdnRr8faQePHei4p2dnA@io.com...
"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bse0c9$v4l@library1.airnews.net...
"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote in message
news:4avGb.237773$Ec1.8359388@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:o8jkuv08n7m1m8v6r2eiouslvoub7ooujd@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar
physical
matrix is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that
constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people
surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
NDE is, as stated in the parenthesis a NEAR death experience.
The only "documentation" is something told afterwards and perhaps
written
down. It has all the validity of me telling you about the dream I had
last
night.
The experiences are too uniform for them to be mere dreams.
They're not dreams, they're the brain starting to shut down from oxygen
deprivation. That's a purely mechanical process of the human brain that
seems to be shared by everyone.
If an NDE was just a human brain shutting down, the experiences described
would not be so uniform. Why do most NDE experiencers describe hovering
over their body, seeing people they know and don't know in the room, seeing
a being of light, seeing a tunnel, and knowing that if they go too far they
cannot come back?
If almost all saw these same things, it cannot just be the brain shutting
down.
And if you examined the experience, the person will insist it was no
dream,
but that it was really happening.
Hallucinations are like that.
No, hallucinations are ghostlike.
There are two types of "death" recognized in the medical world.
Clinical
and
biological.
When the heart stops you are clinically dead and with luck may be
revived
if
at least CPR is started with in about 3- 6 minutes (assuming a body at
or
near room temperature) After 6 - 8 minutes with no circulation to the
brain
you are biologically dead and you will not recover.
Cold will stretch this a bit but it's very hard to get a pulse or find
a
heart beat in a very cold person.
Cold water immersion syndrome is the other situation where a person
may
survive but that is very rare.
Death is death. There is no different kinds of it. Either you are on
the
"other side" or you are not.
That's what he's calling biological death. The kind you don't come back
from. The kind you don't get NDE stories from.
You are just attempting to define NDEs as not being real deaths.
Nice try.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 08:15:32 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 03:12:52 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
If an NDE was just a human brain shutting down, the experiences described
would not be so uniform.
Since it's been determined that they are, your assertion to the
contrary isn't really worth much.
Why do most NDE experiencers describe hovering
over their body, seeing people they know and don't know in the room, seeing
a being of light, seeing a tunnel, and knowing that if they go too far they
cannot come back?
Because that's how the brain works.
If almost all saw these same things, it cannot just be the brain shutting
down.
If almost everyone sees these things there's probably a common cause.
The brain shutting down *is* a common cause.
There's nothing in the actual evidence to say that it can't be the
brain shutting down, that's merely your wish, due to your need for
there to be something after death. (Without which you wouldn't need
to be a theist.)
And if you examined the experience, the person will insist it was no dream,
but that it was really happening.
Hallucinations are like that.
No, hallucinations are ghostlike.
No, hallucinations appear to be real. You seem to be making things up
at a furious pace.
You are just attempting to define NDEs as not being real deaths.
The term *NEAR* death defines it as such. They're not the experiences
of those who have died, they're the experiences of those who have
*nearly* died. The experiences of those who have actually died are
different - no light, no tunnel, no Jesus.
--
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus
was not born of a virgin."
Cardinal Bellarmine,[1615, during the trial of Galileo]
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Johnny Bravo" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 10:17:21 PM |
|
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 21:15:32 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
If almost everyone sees these things there's probably a common cause.
58% of NDE's don't involve a tunnel. his "universal experience" is a
bunch of *****.
--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
.
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| User: "LP" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 06:20:10 AM |
|
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 03:12:52 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:hKGdnRr8faQePHei4p2dnA@io.com...
"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bse0c9$v4l@library1.airnews.net...
"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote in message
news:4avGb.237773$Ec1.8359388@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:o8jkuv08n7m1m8v6r2eiouslvoub7ooujd@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar
physical
matrix is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that
constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people
surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
NDE is, as stated in the parenthesis a NEAR death experience.
The only "documentation" is something told afterwards and perhaps
written
down. It has all the validity of me telling you about the dream I had
last
night.
The experiences are too uniform for them to be mere dreams.
They're not dreams, they're the brain starting to shut down from oxygen
deprivation. That's a purely mechanical process of the human brain that
seems to be shared by everyone.
If an NDE was just a human brain shutting down, the experiences described
would not be so uniform. Why do most NDE experiencers describe hovering
over their body, seeing people they know and don't know in the room, seeing
a being of light, seeing a tunnel, and knowing that if they go too far they
cannot come back?
If almost all saw these same things, it cannot just be the brain shutting
down.
Just because the hallucinations of a oxygen starved brain are similar,
does not in any way come close to being evidence of life after death.
Two points that deflate your wishfully derived conclusions are:
1)
Certain kinds of epileptic seizures have hallucinations associated
with them that have striking similarities from one person to the next.
In other words, similar types of brain trauma are likely to cause
similar types of hallucinations.
2)
It is NOT true that all NDE experiences have a uniformly consistent
hallucinations. In fact, there is evidence that the hallucinations
will often have attributes that coincide with their culture and their
pre-existing beliefs about death. In other words, the hallucinations
will be adapted to what the person expects they should see.
You can squeeze and twist the hallucinations of an oxygen starved
brain all you want. You ain't going to get any evidence of life after
death, it just ain't there. What you will get, if you are honest, is
an understanding of just how powerful the desire to believe in life
after death is. So powerful it can inhibit your ability to think
rationally about the subject.
Here are two books by an author who used to believe as you do. After
researching the subject she found that there was no evidence that the
experiences were anything more than hallucinations.
Dying to Live: Near-Death Experiences
by Susan Blackmore
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879758708
Beyond the Body: An Investigation of Out-Of-The-Body Experiences
by Susan J. Blackmore
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0897333446
.
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| User: "Johnny Bravo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 04:48:56 AM |
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 03:12:52 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote:
They're not dreams, they're the brain starting to shut down from oxygen
deprivation. That's a purely mechanical process of the human brain that
seems to be shared by everyone.
If an NDE was just a human brain shutting down, the experiences described
would not be so uniform.
Why? Oxygen deprivation is a physical event, describe the physical
differences between human brains that would prevent a uniform
response?
That's what he's calling biological death. The kind you don't come back
from. The kind you don't get NDE stories from.
You are just attempting to define NDEs as not being real deaths.
Nice try.
They aren't, if they can tell you what happened as their brains shut
down they weren't actually dead.
--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 08:08:25 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:35:24 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
The experiences are too uniform for them to be mere dreams.
Christians experience a Christian heaven. Moslems experience a Moslem
heaven. Etc. The only thing "uniform" about the experiences is that
the person having the experience experiences something consistent with
his or her beliefs.
And if you examined the experience, the person will insist it was no dream,
but that it was really happening.
Many people have dreams that seem to be real.
There are two types of "death" recognized in the medical world. Clinical and
biological.
When the heart stops you are clinically dead and with luck may be revived if
at least CPR is started with in about 3- 6 minutes (assuming a body at or
near room temperature) After 6 - 8 minutes with no circulation to the brain
you are biologically dead and you will not recover.
Cold will stretch this a bit but it's very hard to get a pulse or find a
heart beat in a very cold person.
Cold water immersion syndrome is the other situation where a person may
survive but that is very rare.
Death is death. There is no different kinds of it.
Don't let the fact that you're wrong dissuade you.
Either you are on the "other side" or you are not.
There is no other side. Ask anyone who's been dead. (Not near dead,
but dead.)
--
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but
not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."
-A. Einstein (1929 -- Einstein Archive 33-272)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 08:33:27 PM |
|
|
<snip >
There are two types of "death" recognized in the medical world.
Clinical and
biological.
When the heart stops you are clinically dead and with luck may be
revived if
at least CPR is started with in about 3- 6 minutes (assuming a body at
or
near room temperature) After 6 - 8 minutes with no circulation to the
brain
you are biologically dead and you will not recover.
Cold will stretch this a bit but it's very hard to get a pulse or find
a
heart beat in a very cold person.
Cold water immersion syndrome is the other situation where a person may
survive but that is very rare.
Death is death. There is no different kinds of it.
Then take up your argument with the medical world.
NDE's are a function of clinical death and NOBODY recovers from biological
death.
.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 12:11:52 AM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:o8jkuv08n7m1m8v6r2eiouslvoub7ooujd@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical
matrix is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
Then you haven't seen evidence that NDEs are nothing more than
cerebral oxygen deprivation.
The experiences are too uniform and vivid for it to be a squelching of
mental circuits. Almost all remember a tunnel, a being of light, and were
well aware of a point of no return if they were to go to far.
Almost all see their body below them, on the operating table or wherever
they were before they temporarily died.
These documented experience are too vivid and detailed and conforming to one
another to be the result of any "head trip."
We all have heard of the saying
that one has reached "the light at the end of the tunnel."
Not everyone who almost dies (or dies and comes back to life)
experiences that.
Most do.
Well, NDE's are where that idea came from.
Sorry, no. The phrase is older than documented NDEs.
If NDE's are real, then they surely have been happening since mankind has
been around. One of my favorite books was about a long NDE of a woman
that temporarily died in the covered wagon days.
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 12:29:20 PM |
|
|
"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bsdv05$hnc@library1.airnews.net...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:o8jkuv08n7m1m8v6r2eiouslvoub7ooujd@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
The experiences are too uniform and vivid for it to be a squelching of
mental circuits. Almost all remember a tunnel, a being of light, and were
well aware of a point of no return if they were to go to far.
Almost all see their body below them, on the operating table or wherever
they were before they temporarily died.
These documented experience are too vivid and detailed and conforming to
one
another to be the result of any "head trip."
If you are serious in your belief you should actually find some real
references, not those of the believers.
There is a common thread in the stories that get put on the web and in the
check-out line at your market.
However about half of these people tell tales of horrible experiences.
Nobody mentions that.
No one who has experienced one of these OBE's has ever produced any
information that could not be explained from having seen or heard the event
during or before the incident, and that includes the tennis shoe. (A serious
researcher, not someone just repeating what they heard would know about that
one.)
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 11:42:34 AM |
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In alt.atheism on Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:11:52 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> let us all know that:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:o8jkuv08n7m1m8v6r2eiouslvoub7ooujd@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical
matrix is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
Then you haven't seen evidence that NDEs are nothing more than
cerebral oxygen deprivation.
The experiences are too uniform and vivid for it to be a squelching of
mental circuits.
Sorry, that's wrong. Just about everyone who experiences G-LOC
(G-Force induced Loss Of Consciousness) has the same experience. And
it's quite nearly identical to an NDE.
Almost all remember a tunnel, a being of light, and were
well aware of a point of no return if they were to go to far.
Almost all see their body below them, on the operating table or wherever
they were before they temporarily died.
Yet none of them have been able to read the signs placed on the
ceiling.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Dale Houstman" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 07:18:40 AM |
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Mark Earnest wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:o8jkuv08n7m1m8v6r2eiouslvoub7ooujd@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:TJSdnc8JTPF0g3eiRVn-hQ@io.com...
Well, technically, no. Our imaginations are NOT non-material.
Imagination
cannot exist in the absence of matter. A brain or similar physical
matrix is
necessary to support the patterns of matter and energy that constitute
ideas.
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
Then you haven't seen evidence that NDEs are nothing more than
cerebral oxygen deprivation.
The experiences are too uniform and vivid for it to be a squelching of
mental circuits.
You don't know much about hallucinations - or psychosis for that matter
- or you would know that such neurological "spasms" can be as - and more
- vivid than physical reality. The uniformity (which - when more detail
is called upon - vanishes) is easily explained by socialization and
archetypes.
Almost all remember a tunnel, a being of light, and were
well aware of a point of no return if they were to go to far.
Almost all see their body below them, on the operating table or wherever
they were before they temporarily died.
These documented experience are too vivid and detailed and conforming to one
another to be the result of any "head trip."
Cultural "cross-pollution" explains the similarites. In fact, when
persons who experienced NDE, and were NOT socialized into Christian
imagery, were asked of their "visions" different results did occur.
We all have heard of the saying
that one has reached "the light at the end of the tunnel."
Precisely the point - most Christians have heard of that, so it helps to
explain the "uniformity."
dmh
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 08:24:58 PM |
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:11:52 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> posted to alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:o8jkuv08n7m1m8v6r2eiouslvoub7ooujd@Pern.rk...
Then you haven't seen evidence that NDEs are nothing more than
cerebral oxygen deprivation.
The experiences are too uniform and vivid for it to be a squelching of
mental circuits.
See my other post and LP's post. Random firings of synapses are
interpreted to be familiar things. That's what dreams are. (This is
known, so arguing against it will only make you look childish.) It's
also known (not guessed or surmised) that, during shutdown, the brain
experiences the same random synaptic firings that occur during dreams.
Almost all remember a tunnel, a being of light, and were
well aware of a point of no return if they were to go to far.
That's Christians. Moslems, Jews and others have other experiences.
Almost all Christians have the same "experience". Almost all Moslems
have the same "experience", but an experience different from the one
Christians have. Etc. This would point to the "experience" being an
interpretation of random synaptic firing, not an actual experience -
unless there are multiple heavens and all religions are correct.
We all have heard of the saying
that one has reached "the light at the end of the tunnel."
Not everyone who almost dies (or dies and comes back to life)
experiences that.
Most do.
If it were an actual experience, all would. That not all do says that
it can't be an actual experience, and that "evidence", while
circumstantial, is MUCH stronger than anything you've presented..
--
"I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the structure of the world
insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."
- Letter to S. Flesch, April 16, 1954; Einstein Archive 30-1154
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Johnny Bravo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God |
25 Dec 2003 01:01:49 AM |
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:11:52 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote:
Then you have not seen the doctor documented evidence of people surviving
death in NDE's (near death experiences.)
Then you haven't seen evidence that NDEs are nothing more than
cerebral oxygen deprivation.
The experiences are too uniform and vivid for it to be a squelching of
mental circuits. Almost all remember a tunnel, a being of light, and were
well aware of a point of no return if they were to go to far.
You might say the same thing about experiencing pain when people are
burned; the experiences are too vivid and uniform for it to be just
pain receptors, thus it must be God! Give us a break.
--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
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