Richo wrote:

There are two powerful forces that 99% of the time trump rational
thought.
One is *early* conditioning - tell a child something often and in
multiple ways and full of emotional potency before they are 6 or 7
tears old and it will in general "stick".
What we learn at our Momma's breast is what we keep till the grave -
the message gets modified built on and usually reinforced.

The second powerful force that generally trumps rational thought is
emotional attachment.
Underneath our advanced clever ape brain with its big cerebrum - deep
down in the basement is the amygdala - our reptile brain This is where
our drives come from - our desire for food and sex our fear and
aggression. This is the powerhouse of reinforcement and revulsion.
We are social animals - when we do things that bond us to the group our
amygdala rewards us with positive reinforcement.
Whatch the audience in a church when the preaching is hot and the
"spirit" is high.
The music the chanting the group feeling... Halleluya!

Religion is built on rewarding belief and punishing doubt and dissent.
So is the cultish behaviour in Jihadis and Hitler youth and Red Guards.
Its humans following their human nature.

You *can* escape from this stuff - but its not easy and its not
possible for everyone.

And generally rational argument is the pathetic pop-gun up against the
cruise missile of emotional need.
Atheism will lose most of the time - it would be irrational to expect
anything else.

Mark.

Well, to fill in some background about myself - I was raised as an
agnostic/atheist, so I wasn't a subject of early religious
conditioning. I converted during a crucial period of my life when I
was under a lot of stress and had a lot of problems. Basically, I was
an emotional wreck, so when counseling didn't do the trick, and no one
else seemed to be there, I was open to Christian invitation.(Quote from
Stephen Colbert in Strangers with Candy: "I'll go anywhere you want
and do anything you say. Just _love_ me!). These were nice people, I
met them through a friend, and they became my friends. (I suppose I
wouldn't say they're not my friends now, I just don't talk to or have
anything to do with them anymore, although some must regard me with
disgust or resentment).

Looking back at it now, I don't know if it was good for me or not - I
did need the emotional support of friends who really cared, but the
extra stuff, i.e., the religious stuff I don't know about. They were
trying to get me to depend on a relationship with God for emotional
strength.

My theory of what happened next is inevitably strange and perhaps hard
to understand. They were praying for God to reveal himself to me, and
then I had a reality altering (psychedelic) experience. All natural by
the way, no drugs or anything, which lent credence to what they were
preaching. As I was sitting in my friends' living room, they were
praying out loud to God, and I was listening and watching the coffee
table and the turned off tv. And then something wonderful happened.
The room around me seemed to become alive as I stared deeply. I felt
the presence of a mind, felt that it saw me, and I realized that it
loved me. And then it was over. I asked them what that was, and they
said it was God. I thought it could be aliens communicating with me,
it was so strange and new, supernatural. But they seemed to know what
was going on, so I accepted what they said.

At that point I was in, and I gobbled it all up - I got a Bible(and
more later), and books about Christianity, and Christian music; I spent
so many nights up late reading and praying, meditating on God,
listening to mp3's and cd's of Christian music. Fellowship with
sincere people who genuinely cared about you; supernatural highs, I was
hooked on all of it.

Well, I had emotional supports but I still was not fully ok. I was
dealing with personal problems that just wouldn't go away; but I guess
my greatest "sin" was disobedience - specifically, doing things for
myself and not for God or others when I felt the compulsion. This was
my downfall. I had no foundation of good works which I could base my
faith on. And without it, I was really unstable. Many times I was
afraid of God's wrath (a fear which is very real for the believer) - an
experience just as intense as His love. I felt guilt, despair, and
later on near the end of my career, externalized hatred and
condemnation. God, the entity on which everything worth anything to me
depended, hated my guts and wanted me to work as hard as possible to
purify my repugnant self, or else die. I saw signs, felt people's
feelings and thoughts. That was the turning point, I think. Why
should I put up with this psycho crap? I didn't sign up for this!

Richo wrote:

There are two powerful forces that 99% of the time trump rational
thought.
One is *early* conditioning - tell a child something often and in
multiple ways and full of emotional potency before they are 6 or 7
tears old and it will in general "stick".
What we learn at our Momma's breast is what we keep till the grave -
the message gets modified built on and usually reinforced.

The second powerful force that generally trumps rational thought is
emotional attachment.
Underneath our advanced clever ape brain with its big cerebrum - deep
down in the basement is the amygdala - our reptile brain This is where
our drives come from - our desire for food and sex our fear and
aggression. This is the powerhouse of reinforcement and revulsion.
We are social animals - when we do things that bond us to the group our
amygdala rewards us with positive reinforcement.
Whatch the audience in a church when the preaching is hot and the
"spirit" is high.
The music the chanting the group feeling... Halleluya!

Religion is built on rewarding belief and punishing doubt and dissent.
So is the cultish behaviour in Jihadis and Hitler youth and Red Guards.
Its humans following their human nature.

You *can* escape from this stuff - but its not easy and its not
possible for everyone.

And generally rational argument is the pathetic pop-gun up against the
cruise missile of emotional need.
Atheism will lose most of the time - it would be irrational to expect
anything else.

Mark.

Well, to fill in some background about myself - I was raised as an
agnostic/atheist, so I wasn't a subject of early religious
conditioning. I converted during a crucial period of my life when I
was under a lot of stress and had a lot of problems. Basically, I was
an emotional wreck, so when counseling didn't do the trick, and no one
else seemed to be there, I was open to Christian invitation.(Quote from
Stephen Colbert in Strangers with Candy: "I'll go anywhere you want
and do anything you say. Just _love_ me!). These were nice people, I
met them through a friend, and they became my friends. (I suppose I
wouldn't say they're not my friends now, I just don't talk to or have
anything to do with them anymore, although some must regard me with
disgust or resentment).

Looking back at it now, I don't know if it was good for me or not - I
did need the emotional support of friends who really cared, but the
extra stuff, i.e., the religious stuff I don't know about. They were
trying to get me to depend on a relationship with God for emotional
strength.

My theory of what happened next is inevitably strange and perhaps hard
to understand. They were praying for God to reveal himself to me, and
then I had a reality altering (psychedelic) experience. All natural by
the way, no drugs or anything, which lent credence to what they were
preaching. As I was sitting in my friends' living room, they were
praying out loud to God, and I was listening and watching the coffee
table and the turned off tv. And then something wonderful happened.
The room around me seemed to become alive as I stared deeply. I felt
the presence of a mind, felt that it saw me, and I realized that it
loved me. And then it was over. I asked them what that was, and they
said it was God. I thought it could be aliens communicating with me,
it was so strange and new, supernatural. But they seemed to know what
was going on, so I accepted what they said.

At that point I was in, and I gobbled it all up - I got a Bible(and
more later), and books about Christianity, and Christian music; I spent
so many nights up late reading and praying, meditating on God,
listening to mp3's and cd's of Christian music. Fellowship with
sincere people who genuinely cared about you; supernatural highs, I was
hooked on all of it.

Well, I had emotional supports but I still was not fully ok. I was
dealing with personal problems that just wouldn't go away; but I guess
my greatest "sin" was disobedience - specifically, doing things for
myself and not for God or others when I felt the compulsion. This was
my downfall. I had no foundation of good works which I could base my
faith on. And without it, I was really unstable. Many times I was
afraid of God's wrath (a fear which is very real for the believer) - an
experience just as intense as His love. I felt guilt, despair, and
later on near the end of my career, externalized hatred and
condemnation. God, the entity on which everything worth anything to me
depended, hated my guts and wanted me to work as hard as possible to
purify my repugnant self, or else die. I saw signs, felt people's
feelings and thoughts. That was the turning point, I think. Why
should I put up with this psycho crap? I didn't sign up for this!

Richo wrote:

There are two powerful forces that 99% of the time trump rational
thought.
One is *early* conditioning - tell a child something often and in
multiple ways and full of emotional potency before they are 6 or 7
tears old and it will in general "stick".
What we learn at our Momma's breast is what we keep till the grave -
the message gets modified built on and usually reinforced.

The second powerful force that generally trumps rational thought is
emotional attachment.
Underneath our advanced clever ape brain with its big cerebrum - deep
down in the basement is the amygdala - our reptile brain This is where
our drives come from - our desire for food and sex our fear and
aggression. This is the powerhouse of reinforcement and revulsion.
We are social animals - when we do things that bond us to the group our
amygdala rewards us with positive reinforcement.
Whatch the audience in a church when the preaching is hot and the
"spirit" is high.
The music the chanting the group feeling... Halleluya!

Religion is built on rewarding belief and punishing doubt and dissent.
So is the cultish behaviour in Jihadis and Hitler youth and Red Guards.
Its humans following their human nature.

You *can* escape from this stuff - but its not easy and its not
possible for everyone.

And generally rational argument is the pathetic pop-gun up against the
cruise missile of emotional need.
Atheism will lose most of the time - it would be irrational to expect
anything else.

Mark.

Well, to fill in some background about myself - I was raised as an
agnostic/atheist, so I wasn't a subject of early religious
conditioning. I converted during a crucial period of my life when I
was under a lot of stress and had a lot of problems. Basically, I was
an emotional wreck, so when counseling didn't do the trick, and no one
else seemed to be there, I was open to Christian invitation.(Quote from
Stephen Colbert in Strangers with Candy: "I'll go anywhere you want
and do anything you say. Just _love_ me!). These were nice people, I
met them through a friend, and they became my friends. (I suppose I
wouldn't say they're not my friends now, I just don't talk to or have
anything to do with them anymore, although some must regard me with
disgust or resentment).

Looking back at it now, I don't know if it was good for me or not - I
did need the emotional support of friends who really cared, but the
extra stuff, i.e., the religious stuff I don't know about. They were
trying to get me to depend on a relationship with God for emotional
strength.

My theory of what happened next is inevitably strange and perhaps hard
to understand. They were praying for God to reveal himself to me, and
then I had a reality altering (psychedelic) experience. All natural by
the way, no drugs or anything, which lent credence to what they were
preaching. As I was sitting in my friends' living room, they were
praying out loud to God, and I was listening and watching the coffee
table and the turned off tv. And then something wonderful happened.
The room around me seemed to become alive as I stared deeply. I felt
the presence of a mind, felt that it saw me, and I realized that it
loved me. And then it was over. I asked them what that was, and they
said it was God. I thought it could be aliens communicating with me,
it was so strange and new, supernatural. But they seemed to know what
was going on, so I accepted what they said.

At that point I was in, and I gobbled it all up - I got a Bible(and
more later), and books about Christianity, and Christian music; I spent
so many nights up late reading and praying, meditating on God,
listening to mp3's and cd's of Christian music. Fellowship with
sincere people who genuinely cared about you; supernatural highs, I was
hooked on all of it.

Well, I had emotional supports but I still was not fully ok. I was
dealing with personal problems that just wouldn't go away; but I guess
my greatest "sin" was disobedience - specifically, doing things for
myself and not for God or others when I felt the compulsion. This was
my downfall. I had no foundation of good works which I could base my
faith on. And without it, I was really unstable. Many times I was
afraid of God's wrath (a fear which is very real for the believer) - an
experience just as intense as His love. I felt guilt, despair, and
later on near the end of my career, externalized hatred and
condemnation. God, the entity on which everything worth anything to me
depended, hated my guts and wanted me to work as hard as possible to
purify my repugnant self, or else die. I saw signs, felt people's
feelings and thoughts. That was the turning point, I think. Why
should I put up with this psycho crap? I didn't sign up for this!

<wishsong@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153752814.356250.127340@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

Greywolf wrote:

Think about it theists. Think long and hard about it. Not *one* single
human
being has ever proven 'God' exists. Did I say not a *single* one? How
about
not even *close*? Yet there you theists go; constantly dribbling
something
about 'God' this and 'God' that. 'God' doesn't like this, but he
certainly
loves that. What in the hell is wrong with you theists? Where do you
'see'
this 'God' of yours? Why can't you grab us atheists by the arm and say,
'Lookee over here, *this* is proof that 'God' exists.

I used to be a born-again Christian(the real kind) but now consider
myself an atheist or just someone who avoids religion as much as
possible. You might ask why I am responding to this post, then...
Well, I guess I'm bored and want to escape the unpleasantness which
surrounds me at the moment. Anyway,

Nobody has ever given a literal, non-metaphorical definition of God
that is reducible to sense perception. Perhaps due to the nature of
the concept, no one can. E.g., he is infinite and therefore
indefinite; he is immaterial and spiritual, beyond this world. There
is the possibility of an ostentive definition that points to a
subjective experience a person may have, like "God is the entity I just
experienced when some Christians were praying for me."

There are some problems with this though. There is an inference
involved between the subjective experience itself and the conclusion
that it was caused by the Biblical God of Christianity, which may or
may not be valid. Also, the experience itself is hard to communicate
or understand in a literal or objective sense; "the world opened up to
me," "I felt truly alive," "I saw a mind, and it saw me, and I felt
loved." A looser, less definite kind of thinking is required, one that
often violates the law of identity and relies on the principle that if
two subjects share a predicate in common, they are interchangeable(Von
Domarus' principle) or the same instance.

You say he's a 'loving' God but many of you call yourselves 'God
fearing'.
When a devastating flood, mudslide, earthquake, tsunami, avalanche,
hurricane, tornado or any other calamitous natural disaster hits, it is
often called an 'act of God'. Where's Mr. Love God then? Taking a whizz?
Asleep on the job? Missing in action? Doin' the 'Wild Thing' with Mrs.
'God'. What?

According to his portrayal in the Bible, God is a (relatively)
benevolent tyrant. He is not omni-benevolent, given his particular
kind of justice(God's hatred of many things and God's favor for
particular people). But he is all-powerful and could do anything he
wants to, yet adheres to a policy that will produce the largest number
of enlightened voluntary followers as possible. In addition, God likes
to foster interdependence among people. The positive side of this
would be enriched community life, esp. in the face of common hardship;
the downside would be that if one or some individuals are out of sync,
or sin or something, the entire community would have to deal with the
consequences. Hence supposedley God initiated disasters such as the
Flood, which fundamentalists then blame on certain groups of people.

Isn't there *any* part of your theist brain that says something isn't
right
here? Isn't there a part of you that says, 'If there was a 'God', he'd
surely reveal himself to everyone.' Why play 'Hide n' Seek? What would be
the point of *that*? Hmmmm?

I agree with you on this, but taking the Christian perspective I'd have
to say that
Hide and Seek is more fun. That is, if Christian Spirit is a
commodity, then making it rarer and harder to achieve increases its
value, esp. to those who do find it. Unfair, or unfortunate as it may
be.

Ask yourselves, 'How can I be sure there's a 'God'? What is it in me that
says that there can be no question as to 'him' *not* existing? What makes
my
belief in 'God' so absolutely irrefutably true. When you've arrived at an
*honest* answer, how about sharing it? The truth now. No I've got 'faith'
bologna. No Aunt Mildred got the hiccups and 'God' cured her stuff. Real,
down to earth answers a skeptic can take a hard, close look at.

I don't think Christians can satisfactorily answer the questions you're
presenting. As a former believer, I guess all I can say is that once
you've had certain intense, special, reality-altering private
experiences, and you accept them as evidence of God, there is no
question of doubt or belief anymore.

--n4melessone

Dang, if this isn't the best response I've 'heard' in some time when it
comes to trying to understand the 'fundamentalist' mind-set. (I *do* realize
that you are speaking as a 'former' believer.) This is terrific stuff. I am
going to print out your reply, go over it at my leisure, digest it, and see
where the old noodle takes me with it. Thanks for your thoughts. Hope
'things' get better for you. Boredom. That's one thing I've never suffered
from, really. At least I can't think of the last time I was 'bored'. I'm
going to enter into the mind of a (former) Christian fundamentalist and get
a good look-see. Cool.

Greywolf

"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:XF4xg.25426$iP1.3912@bignews2.bellsouth.net...

You make some very good points.

There is NO 'proof' that any gods exist. There is a wealth of objective
verifable evidence that NO gods exist except in the minds of man.

Religious/god beliefs are man's psychological mental opiate to help him
deal with the fear of the finality of death.

Yep. And if that was all there was to it, there wouldn't be a *major*
problem. But when these mindless people become 'used' by the clergy,
politicians, and corporate America, it most certainly becomes one.

Greywolf