Religions > Atheism > Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it?
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Son of man" |
| Date: |
11 Aug 2004 03:02:22 PM |
| Object: |
Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
1Kings:18:37: Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou
art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38: Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and
the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in
the trench.
39: And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said,
The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.
40: And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of
them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook
Kishon, and slew them there.
2Kings:1:10: And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a
man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy
fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his
fifty.
Do you find this proof sufficient, or lacking?
But before you answer, also take a look at these verses of the New Testament
:
Revelation:13:12: And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before
him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first
beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven
on the earth in the sight of men!
And the spirit that Jesus warned his dsciples of :
Luke:9:53: And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he
would go to Jerusalem.
54: And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt
thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even
as Elias did?
55: But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of
spirit ye are of.
--
"The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent." Brad Rogers
http://bellsouthpwp.net/c/h/Christ-Son-of-Buddha/TheWordOfGod_1.htm
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| User: "Budikka" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
14 Aug 2004 09:44:34 PM |
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"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote
news:<5XuSc.1363$8I2.667@bignews6.bellsouth.net>
Do you find this proof sufficient, or lacking?
Where is the evidence that any of this story in 1 Kings 18 actually
happened? Where is *your* proof that even if it did happen, the fire
on the altar wasn't an accident caused by lightning, or a deliberately
perpetrated deception?
[Gratuitous and gullible proselytizing deleted]
Now let's debate this god of yours and his purported existence. Is
that the best evidence you have? Why would you believe the gullible
words of ancient scribes, none of whose names we know with any degree
of certitude if at all? Why would you imagine that someone's poor
understanding of science and nature qualifies them as an expert on the
divine?
Why would you gullibly believe superstitious nonsense to begin with?
If the Bible had never existed and someone wrote it today, exactly as
we have it, no one would believe it or follow it. It would be laughed
out of town. So why is it that if we remove those exact same words
2,000 - 4,000 years into the past, it somehow gains credibility and
becomes the word of some god?
It isn't the word of any god and enver has been. It was written by
ignorant and primitive humans. Get that part right and the rest
should naturally follow.
Budikka
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
20 Aug 2004 09:02:13 PM |
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Budikka wrote:
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote
news:<5XuSc.1363$8I2.667@bignews6.bellsouth.net>
Do you find this proof sufficient, or lacking?
Where is the evidence that any of this story in 1 Kings 18 actually
happened? Where is *your* proof that even if it did happen, the fire
on the altar wasn't an accident caused by lightning, or a deliberately
perpetrated deception?
Probably the latter. The same thing goes on even today, tune in to any
Benny Hinn Show.
The Benny Hinnn slogan "It pays to be religious"
[Gratuitous and gullible proselytizing deleted]
Now let's debate this god of yours and his purported existence. Is
that the best evidence you have? Why would you believe the gullible
words of ancient scribes, none of whose names we know with any degree
of certitude if at all? Why would you imagine that someone's poor
understanding of science and nature qualifies them as an expert on the
divine?
Maybe because his dad, grandad and great grandad told him so?!
Why would you gullibly believe superstitious nonsense to begin with?
If the Bible had never existed and someone wrote it today, exactly as
we have it, no one would believe it or follow it. It would be laughed
out of town. So why is it that if we remove those exact same words
2,000 - 4,000 years into the past, it somehow gains credibility and
becomes the word of some god?
The bible is the crutch of Christianity and JC who is supposed to be one
of the players in the same book. Imagine this belief wthout the bible
and JC, it would fail within months, yet it survivies on the presence of
a doubtful old book written by primitives.
It isn't the word of any god and enver has been. It was written by
ignorant and primitive humans. Get that part right and the rest
should naturally follow.
Budikka
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| User: "Hagar" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
11 Aug 2004 04:30:25 PM |
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"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:5XuSc.1363$8I2.667@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
1Kings:18:37: Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that
thou
art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38: Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and
the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was
in
the trench.
39: And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they
said,
The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.
40: And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of
them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the
brook
Kishon, and slew them there.
2Kings:1:10: And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be
a
man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy
fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his
fifty.
Do you find this proof sufficient, or lacking?
But before you answer, also take a look at these verses of the New
Testament
:
Revelation:13:12: And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast
before
him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the
first
beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from
heaven
on the earth in the sight of men!
And the spirit that Jesus warned his dsciples of :
Luke:9:53: And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he
would go to Jerusalem.
54: And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt
thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even
as Elias did?
55: But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of
spirit ye are of.
Well that clears things up for me !!
Because the National Enquirer tells me so.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
11 Aug 2004 05:01:55 PM |
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"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:5XuSc.1363$8I2.667@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
1Kings:18:37: Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that
thou
art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38: Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and
the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was
in
the trench.
39: And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they
said,
The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.
40: And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of
them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the
brook
Kishon, and slew them there.
2Kings:1:10: And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be
a
man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy
fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his
fifty.
Do you find this proof sufficient, or lacking?
What "proof"?
Obviously you don't even know the meaning of the word!
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| User: "Adam Helberg" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 12:32:31 AM |
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"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:5XuSc.1363$8I2.667@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
OK. If you can split the sea I'll believe you're God.
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| User: "Son of man" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 09:16:29 PM |
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"Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:PhDSc.18297$9Y6.1665@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:5XuSc.1363$8I2.667@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
OK. If you can split the sea I'll believe you're God.
Why? If I can split the sea, what makes you think I can do anything at all?
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| User: "Adam Helberg" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 09:38:50 PM |
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"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:FvVSc.4126$Yh.656@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:PhDSc.18297$9Y6.1665@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:5XuSc.1363$8I2.667@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
OK. If you can split the sea I'll believe you're God.
Why? If I can split the sea, what makes you think I can do anything at all?
If you can split the sea I know you can at least split the sea.
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| User: "nobody" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 03:38:10 AM |
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"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Do you find this proof sufficient, or lacking?
If God really wanted me to believe, he would know what to do, no?
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 09:27:20 AM |
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:38:10 +0000 in episode
<b8bmh0l6ssibplkvo64pfnlbn0q076cbg8@4ax.com> we saw our hero nobody
<nobody@here.com>:
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Do you find this proof sufficient, or lacking?
If God really wanted me to believe, he would know what to do, no?
They always miss the fact that an omniscient god already knows what would
convince each and every human being that exists (or has existed or will
exist).
So if it *wanted to, it knows how...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 11:19:31 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:KfqdnfKOGMbX44bcRVn-hA@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:38:10 +0000 in episode
<b8bmh0l6ssibplkvo64pfnlbn0q076cbg8@4ax.com> we saw our hero nobody
<nobody@here.com>:
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Do you find this proof sufficient, or lacking?
If God really wanted me to believe, he would know what to do, no?
They always miss the fact that an omniscient god already knows what would
convince each and every human being that exists (or has existed or will
exist).
So if it *wanted to, it knows how...
While not wanting to preach, let me point out that knowing how to do
something and wanting it to happen doesn't mean that any being wants to
*force* it to happen.
If you were in love with someone, and wanted them to love you back, how much
would their love be worth if you could wave your magic wand & fabricate it?
Susan
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| User: "David K. Lewis" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 11:29:10 AM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> writes:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
They always miss the fact that an omniscient god already knows what would
convince each and every human being that exists (or has existed or will
exist).
So if it *wanted to, it knows how...
While not wanting to preach, let me point out that knowing how to do
something and wanting it to happen doesn't mean that any being wants
to *force* it to happen.
I think you've missed his point Susan.
If you were in love with someone, and wanted them to love you
back, how much would their love be worth if you could wave
your magic wand & fabricate it?
Your analogy dosn't match his point. Let me modify it,
if you were in love with someone who wasn't sure you really
loved them or not and you knew of a way to prove to them
that you really loved them, you should (assuming its
a sane method :).
That in no way forces the other person to love you back,
just removes the doubt so that they can make an informed
decision. God proving he existed to everyone, wouldn't
force them to worship him, or force them to fall in line
with their plans. Staying hidden seems silly if
he/she/it/they desire something from us want to help
us...
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 12:02:20 PM |
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"David K. Lewis" <dkl24@cas.org> wrote in message
news:cfg5sm$8r$1@srv38.cas.org...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> writes:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
They always miss the fact that an omniscient god already knows what
would
convince each and every human being that exists (or has existed or
will
exist).
So if it *wanted to, it knows how...
While not wanting to preach, let me point out that knowing how to do
something and wanting it to happen doesn't mean that any being wants
to *force* it to happen.
I think you've missed his point Susan.
Possibly.
If you were in love with someone, and wanted them to love you
back, how much would their love be worth if you could wave
your magic wand & fabricate it?
Your analogy dosn't match his point. Let me modify it,
if you were in love with someone who wasn't sure you really
loved them or not and you knew of a way to prove to them
that you really loved them, you should (assuming its
a sane method :).
But this assumes that the person you are trying to convince is open to being
convinced.
That in no way forces the other person to love you back,
just removes the doubt so that they can make an informed
decision. God proving he existed to everyone, wouldn't
force them to worship him, or force them to fall in line
with their plans. Staying hidden seems silly if
he/she/it/they desire something from us want to help
us...
I think we're all still talking about free will.
Susan
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
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| User: "Son of man" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 09:20:27 PM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:woNSc.11013$EQ5.411@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"David K. Lewis" <dkl24@cas.org> wrote in message
news:cfg5sm$8r$1@srv38.cas.org...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> writes:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
They always miss the fact that an omniscient god already knows what
would
convince each and every human being that exists (or has existed or
will
exist).
So if it *wanted to, it knows how...
While not wanting to preach, let me point out that knowing how to do
something and wanting it to happen doesn't mean that any being wants
to *force* it to happen.
I think you've missed his point Susan.
Possibly.
If you were in love with someone, and wanted them to love you
back, how much would their love be worth if you could wave
your magic wand & fabricate it?
Your analogy dosn't match his point. Let me modify it,
if you were in love with someone who wasn't sure you really
loved them or not and you knew of a way to prove to them
that you really loved them, you should (assuming its
a sane method :).
But this assumes that the person you are trying to convince is open to
being
convinced.
That in no way forces the other person to love you back,
just removes the doubt so that they can make an informed
decision. God proving he existed to everyone, wouldn't
force them to worship him, or force them to fall in line
with their plans. Staying hidden seems silly if
he/she/it/they desire something from us want to help
us...
I think we're all still talking about free will.
YOU DARE SPEAK ABOUT FREE WILL? WHEN YOUR GOD IS A KNOWN BUTCHER AND
MURDERER OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO WORSHIP HIM?!!
Numbers:25:3: And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the
LORD was kindled against Israel.
4: And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang
them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD
may be turned away from Israel.
5: And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that
were joined unto Baal-peor.
6: And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his
brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all
the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door
of the tabernacle of the congregation.
7: And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw
it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
8: And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of
them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the
plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
9: And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
10: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
11: Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned
my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake
among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
Susan
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 12:06:27 PM |
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:02:20 +0000 in episode
<woNSc.11013$EQ5.411@nwrddc03.gnilink.net> we saw our hero "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@verizon.net>:
"David K. Lewis" <dkl24@cas.org> wrote in message
news:cfg5sm$8r$1@srv38.cas.org...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> writes:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
They always miss the fact that an omniscient god already knows what
would
convince each and every human being that exists (or has existed or
will
exist).
So if it *wanted to, it knows how...
While not wanting to preach, let me point out that knowing how to do
something and wanting it to happen doesn't mean that any being wants
to *force* it to happen.
I think you've missed his point Susan.
Possibly.
If you were in love with someone, and wanted them to love you back,
how much would their love be worth if you could wave your magic wand &
fabricate it?
Your analogy dosn't match his point. Let me modify it, if you were in
love with someone who wasn't sure you really loved them or not and you
knew of a way to prove to them that you really loved them, you should
(assuming its a sane method :).
But this assumes that the person you are trying to convince is open to
being convinced.
That doesn't usually stop people from trying to demonstrate that they
actually do love the person.
Besides, in the case we're discussing, we're talking about an omniscient
being that knows--absolutely and in every case--what *would convince a
person.
That in no way forces the other person to love you back, just removes
the doubt so that they can make an informed decision. God proving he
existed to everyone, wouldn't force them to worship him, or force them
to fall in line with their plans. Staying hidden seems silly if
he/she/it/they desire something from us want to help us...
I think we're all still talking about free will.
But wouldn't that mean if you show love to your children, you remove their
"free will?"
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 03:05:47 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:FP-dnYPhQP0PPobcRVn-tw@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:02:20 +0000 in episode
But this assumes that the person you are trying to convince is open to
being convinced.
That doesn't usually stop people from trying to demonstrate that they
actually do love the person.
Besides, in the case we're discussing, we're talking about an omniscient
being that knows--absolutely and in every case--what *would convince a
person.
You have a definite point.
(Of course, you are also talking to a theist whose beliefs are directed at a
G-d who is not too concerned that everyone worship in the same way, or even
believe He exists. It's a Jewish thing....)
That in no way forces the other person to love you back, just removes
the doubt so that they can make an informed decision. God proving he
existed to everyone, wouldn't force them to worship him, or force them
to fall in line with their plans. Staying hidden seems silly if
he/she/it/they desire something from us want to help us...
I think we're all still talking about free will.
But wouldn't that mean if you show love to your children, you remove their
"free will?"
No, it means hoping that my children understand that what I am soing is
showing love.
Susan
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| User: "Son of man" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 09:21:05 PM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:v4QSc.31355$114.22856@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:FP-dnYPhQP0PPobcRVn-tw@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:02:20 +0000 in episode
But this assumes that the person you are trying to convince is open
to
being convinced.
That doesn't usually stop people from trying to demonstrate that they
actually do love the person.
Besides, in the case we're discussing, we're talking about an omniscient
being that knows--absolutely and in every case--what *would convince a
person.
You have a definite point.
(Of course, you are also talking to a theist whose beliefs are directed at
a
G-d who is not too concerned that everyone worship in the same way, or
even
believe He exists. It's a Jewish thing....)
That in no way forces the other person to love you back, just removes
the doubt so that they can make an informed decision. God proving he
existed to everyone, wouldn't force them to worship him, or force them
to fall in line with their plans. Staying hidden seems silly if
he/she/it/they desire something from us want to help us...
I think we're all still talking about free will.
But wouldn't that mean if you show love to your children, you remove
their
"free will?"
No, it means hoping that my children understand that what I am soing is
showing love.
By killing them?!!
Numbers:25:3: And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the
LORD was kindled against Israel.
4: And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang
them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD
may be turned away from Israel.
5: And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that
were joined unto Baal-peor.
6: And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his
brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all
the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door
of the tabernacle of the congregation.
7: And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw
it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
8: And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of
them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the
plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
9: And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
10: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
11: Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned
my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake
among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
Susan
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 10:04:02 PM |
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:21:05 -0400 in episode
<ZzVSc.4166$Yh.263@bignews3.bellsouth.net> we saw our hero "Son of man"
<thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>:
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:v4QSc.31355$114.22856@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:FP-dnYPhQP0PPobcRVn-tw@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:02:20 +0000 in episode
But this assumes that the person you are trying to convince is open
to
being convinced.
That doesn't usually stop people from trying to demonstrate that they
actually do love the person.
Besides, in the case we're discussing, we're talking about an
omniscient being that knows--absolutely and in every case--what *would
convince a person.
You have a definite point.
(Of course, you are also talking to a theist whose beliefs are directed
at a
G-d who is not too concerned that everyone worship in the same way, or
even
believe He exists. It's a Jewish thing....)
That in no way forces the other person to love you back, just
removes the doubt so that they can make an informed decision. God
proving he existed to everyone, wouldn't force them to worship him,
or force them to fall in line with their plans. Staying hidden
seems silly if he/she/it/they desire something from us want to help
us...
I think we're all still talking about free will.
But wouldn't that mean if you show love to your children, you remove
their
"free will?"
No, it means hoping that my children understand that what I am soing is
showing love.
By killing them?!!
<snip>
Oh don't be an *****.
<plonk>
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 10:27:06 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:DLednUDpsO4CsoHcRVn-tA@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:21:05 -0400 in episode
<ZzVSc.4166$Yh.263@bignews3.bellsouth.net> we saw our hero "Son of man"
<thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>:
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:v4QSc.31355$114.22856@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:FP-dnYPhQP0PPobcRVn-tw@megapath.net...
But wouldn't that mean if you show love to your children, you remove
their
"free will?"
No, it means hoping that my children understand that what I am doing is
showing love.
By killing them?!!
<snip>
Oh don't be an *****.
Sorry.
You're asking too much of him.
<plonk>
I knew you were smart.
Susan
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 10:46:39 PM |
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On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 03:27:06 +0000 in episode
<eyWSc.15092$EQ5.8452@nwrddc03.gnilink.net> we saw our hero "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@verizon.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:DLednUDpsO4CsoHcRVn-tA@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:21:05 -0400 in episode
<ZzVSc.4166$Yh.263@bignews3.bellsouth.net> we saw our hero "Son of man"
<thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>:
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:v4QSc.31355$114.22856@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:FP-dnYPhQP0PPobcRVn-tw@megapath.net...
But wouldn't that mean if you show love to your children, you remove
their
"free will?"
No, it means hoping that my children understand that what I am doing
is showing love.
By killing them?!!
<snip>
Oh don't be an *****.
Sorry.
You're asking too much of him.
<plonk>
I knew you were smart.
I was just surprised to find him running loose. I musta left the door to
the killfile open...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
13 Aug 2004 11:59:33 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:h9mdnTlo5dgApIHcRVn-gQ@megapath.net...
I was just surprised to find him running loose. I musta left the door to
the killfile open...
Trolls have a habit of modifying their nym or e-mails to avoid killfiles.
Susan
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
13 Aug 2004 09:53:12 PM |
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On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:59:33 +0000 in episode
<Vr6Tc.282$io1.40@nwrddc02.gnilink.net> we saw our hero "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@verizon.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:h9mdnTlo5dgApIHcRVn-gQ@megapath.net...
I was just surprised to find him running loose. I musta left the door to
the killfile open...
Trolls have a habit of modifying their nym or e-mails to avoid killfiles.
And talk about an annoying habit...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Son of man" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
13 Aug 2004 04:50:17 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:DLednUDpsO4CsoHcRVn-tA@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:21:05 -0400 in episode
<ZzVSc.4166$Yh.263@bignews3.bellsouth.net> we saw our hero "Son of man"
<thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>:
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:v4QSc.31355$114.22856@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:FP-dnYPhQP0PPobcRVn-tw@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:02:20 +0000 in episode
But this assumes that the person you are trying to convince is open
to
being convinced.
That doesn't usually stop people from trying to demonstrate that they
actually do love the person.
Besides, in the case we're discussing, we're talking about an
omniscient being that knows--absolutely and in every case--what *would
convince a person.
You have a definite point.
(Of course, you are also talking to a theist whose beliefs are directed
at a
G-d who is not too concerned that everyone worship in the same way, or
even
believe He exists. It's a Jewish thing....)
That in no way forces the other person to love you back, just
removes the doubt so that they can make an informed decision. God
proving he existed to everyone, wouldn't force them to worship him,
or force them to fall in line with their plans. Staying hidden
seems silly if he/she/it/they desire something from us want to help
us...
I think we're all still talking about free will.
But wouldn't that mean if you show love to your children, you remove
their
"free will?"
No, it means hoping that my children understand that what I am soing is
showing love.
By killing them?!!
<snip>
Oh don't be an *****.
Tell that to the God of Israel :
Numbers:11:31: And there went forth a wind from the LORD, and brought quails
from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day's journey on
this side, and as it were a day's journey on the other side, round about the
camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth.
32: And the people stood up all that day, and all that night, and all the
next day, and they gathered the quails: he that gathered least gathered ten
homers: and they spread them all abroad for themselves round about the camp.
33: And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the
wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the
people with a very great plague.
34: And he called the name of that place Kibroth-hattaavah: because there
they buried the people that hungered for meat.
<plonk>
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 08:03:53 PM |
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:05:47 +0000 in episode
<v4QSc.31355$114.22856@nwrddc02.gnilink.net> we saw our hero "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@verizon.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:FP-dnYPhQP0PPobcRVn-tw@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:02:20 +0000 in episode
But this assumes that the person you are trying to convince is open
to
being convinced.
That doesn't usually stop people from trying to demonstrate that they
actually do love the person.
Besides, in the case we're discussing, we're talking about an omniscient
being that knows--absolutely and in every case--what *would convince a
person.
You have a definite point.
(Of course, you are also talking to a theist whose beliefs are directed at
a G-d who is not too concerned that everyone worship in the same way, or
even believe He exists. It's a Jewish thing....)
That in no way forces the other person to love you back, just removes
the doubt so that they can make an informed decision. God proving he
existed to everyone, wouldn't force them to worship him, or force
them to fall in line with their plans. Staying hidden seems silly if
he/she/it/they desire something from us want to help us...
I think we're all still talking about free will.
But wouldn't that mean if you show love to your children, you remove
their "free will?"
No, it means hoping that my children understand that what I am soing is
showing love.
And I would assume that if you had knowledge of *exactly how to persuade
them that you love them, you'd use that knowledge.
Maybe they'd "reject" that but then that could probably be called "free
will." I'm just not convinced that *knowing that something exists violates
"free will." Actually I'd hazard it's the reverse since you have to know
the choices in order to make a choice...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Son of man" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 09:19:02 PM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:nMMSc.10751$EQ5.2373@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:KfqdnfKOGMbX44bcRVn-hA@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:38:10 +0000 in episode
<b8bmh0l6ssibplkvo64pfnlbn0q076cbg8@4ax.com> we saw our hero nobody
<nobody@here.com>:
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Do you find this proof sufficient, or lacking?
If God really wanted me to believe, he would know what to do, no?
They always miss the fact that an omniscient god already knows what would
convince each and every human being that exists (or has existed or will
exist).
So if it *wanted to, it knows how...
While not wanting to preach, let me point out that knowing how to do
something and wanting it to happen doesn't mean that any being wants to
*force* it to happen.
If you were in love with someone, and wanted them to love you back, how
much
would their love be worth if you could wave your magic wand & fabricate
it?
And how much do you think the people of Isreal really "loved" Yahweh after
he forced them to worship him against their will?
Numbers:25:3: And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the
LORD was kindled against Israel.
4: And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang
them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD
may be turned away from Israel.
5: And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that
were joined unto Baal-peor.
6: And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his
brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all
the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door
of the tabernacle of the congregation.
7: And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw
it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
8: And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of
them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the
plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
9: And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
10: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
11: Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned
my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake
among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
Susan
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| User: "Russell Turpin" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
13 Aug 2004 09:17:26 AM |
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Mark K. Bilbo:
They always miss the fact that an omniscient
god already knows what would convince each and
every human being that exists (or has existed or
will exist).
Susan Cohen:
While not wanting to preach, let me point out
that knowing how to do something and wanting it
to happen doesn't mean that any being wants to
*force* it to happen. If you were in love with
someone, and wanted them to love you back, how
much would their love be worth if you could wave
your magic wand & fabricate it?
That's an entirely different question, Susan. The
issue wasn't "how do I get someone to love me
back?" It was "how do I get someone to know I
exist?" For people, that's pretty easy, because
people are the kinds of things that impinge on the
sensible world. If I want someone to know I am, I
go up and introduce myself. Problem solved. The
question is why your god doesn't do the same, but
keeps himself so well hidden.
The answer cannot have anything to do with free
will. Free will has much less to do with knowledge
than most people think. Obviously, of course, you
can choose to ask certain questions, or investigate
the areas related to them. But free will is NOT
involved in the knowledge you then reach from this.
If it is, what you reach is not knowledge, but just
belief. One way to know that what you believe is
NOT knowledge is that you have CHOSEN to believe it.
You don't choose to believe that a rock is there
when you kick it, or that 2 + 2 is 4. You're
*compelled* to believe those from the results of
your investigation. If you have to CHOOSE to believe,
it isn't knowledge. The reason should be obvious. If
you can choose to believe A, then you are also free
to choose to believe ~A, and since your choice
doesn't make anything so (assuming A is not somehow
referential of your choice), you clearly con't have
any knowledge on the matter.
Nor would knowledge that some god exists deny man
free will in his response to that god. Even if every
human being were 100% certain that your god was, man
would still be free in his response your god.
Knowledge can be compelled, but not love, obedience,
etc. There are relevant stories in the Old Testament
to this very point, where various characters who,
according to the story, knew for certain that your
god exists, because this was in the day when he would
reveal himself, nonetheless disobeyed him. It is very
strange for someone who believes in the OT, even if
not literally but just to the extent that these
stories are illustrative of how knowledge and
response to god works, to make the argument that god
cannot reveal himself without denying man's freewill.
In more than one place, the Old Testament claims that
its god did reveal himself, without compelling man to
obey or love or otherwise respond in a certain
fashion. (Now yeah, since your god is omnipotent, he
could compell these latter things if he chose. The
point is that that isn't required just by revealing
himself, and thus compelling knowledge of his
existence.)
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
13 Aug 2004 12:00:58 PM |
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"Russell Turpin" <russell_turpin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8a12e538.0408130617.4a7d0ff5@posting.google.com...
That's an entirely different question, Susan.
Yes, I understand that now.
I hope no one thought I was trying to duck the issue.
Susan
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 12:01:00 PM |
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:19:31 +0000 in episode
<nMMSc.10751$EQ5.2373@nwrddc03.gnilink.net> we saw our hero "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@verizon.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:KfqdnfKOGMbX44bcRVn-hA@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:38:10 +0000 in episode
<b8bmh0l6ssibplkvo64pfnlbn0q076cbg8@4ax.com> we saw our hero nobody
<nobody@here.com>:
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Do you find this proof sufficient, or lacking?
If God really wanted me to believe, he would know what to do, no?
They always miss the fact that an omniscient god already knows what
would convince each and every human being that exists (or has existed or
will exist).
So if it *wanted to, it knows how...
While not wanting to preach, let me point out that knowing how to do
something and wanting it to happen doesn't mean that any being wants to
*force* it to happen.
If you were in love with someone, and wanted them to love you back, how
much would their love be worth if you could wave your magic wand &
fabricate it?
Just for the purpose of discussion...
We humans also spend a great deal of time and effort demonstrating love.
Courtship is one long demonstration. <g>
If you want someone to know you love them and you know how to show that,
do you sit back, do nothing, and expect them to "realize" they're loved?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 03:04:01 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:hpOdnXfpAdbWP4bcRVn-uA@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:19:31 +0000 in episode
<nMMSc.10751$EQ5.2373@nwrddc03.gnilink.net> we saw our hero "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@verizon.net>:
While not wanting to preach, let me point out that knowing how to do
something and wanting it to happen doesn't mean that any being wants to
*force* it to happen.
If you were in love with someone, and wanted them to love you back, how
much would their love be worth if you could wave your magic wand &
fabricate it?
Just for the purpose of discussion...
We humans also spend a great deal of time and effort demonstrating love.
Courtship is one long demonstration. <g>
If you want someone to know you love them and you know how to show that,
do you sit back, do nothing, and expect them to "realize" they're loved?
Unfortunately this is where theology must butt in.
As a theist, I believe there are constant examples of G-d's courtship - the
earth itself, my husband and children (& I have reasons for thinking they
are specifically G-d given - I just don't want to stretch the tolerance (or
nausea point) of a.a.).
This is what I meant by "being convinced" and "free will."
Susan
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 08:01:09 PM |
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:04:01 +0000 in episode
<R2QSc.31352$114.10751@nwrddc02.gnilink.net> we saw our hero "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@verizon.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:hpOdnXfpAdbWP4bcRVn-uA@megapath.net...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:19:31 +0000 in episode
<nMMSc.10751$EQ5.2373@nwrddc03.gnilink.net> we saw our hero "Susan
Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>:
While not wanting to preach, let me point out that knowing how to do
something and wanting it to happen doesn't mean that any being wants
to *force* it to happen.
If you were in love with someone, and wanted them to love you back,
how much would their love be worth if you could wave your magic wand &
fabricate it?
Just for the purpose of discussion...
We humans also spend a great deal of time and effort demonstrating love.
Courtship is one long demonstration. <g>
If you want someone to know you love them and you know how to show that,
do you sit back, do nothing, and expect them to "realize" they're loved?
Unfortunately this is where theology must butt in. As a theist, I believe
there are constant examples of G-d's courtship - the earth itself, my
husband and children (& I have reasons for thinking they are specifically
G-d given - I just don't want to stretch the tolerance (or nausea point)
of a.a.).
This is what I meant by "being convinced" and "free will."
I can see your point (obviously don't agree but you knew that <g>). On the
*other hand, I'd still tend to quibble that being convinced isn't
something that would override "free will" (whatever that is and oh can
*that debate go on forever).
In fact, I would question whether being allowed to not *know violates free
will. You can't make a choice if you don't know the choices...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God in the Old Testament -- would you believe it? |
12 Aug 2004 10:26:08 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:nM-dnTQoc-JOj4HcRVn-sg@megapath.net...
I can see your point (obviously don't agree but you knew that <g>).
Of course! Please, feel free to disagree! :-)
On the
*other hand, I'd still tend to quibble that being convinced isn't
something that would override "free will" (whatever that is and oh can
*that debate go on forever).
I can see that, too.
In fact, I would question whether being allowed to not *know violates free
will. You can't make a choice if you don't know the choices...
Would you laugh if I say, "I think I'm getting a headache"?
Susan
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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