Religions > Atheism > Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Henry Cotter" |
| Date: |
17 Dec 2003 02:11:14 AM |
| Object: |
Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
The existence of God is a subject that has occupied schools of
philosophy and theology for thousands of years. Most of the time,
these debates have revolved around all kinds of assumptions and
definitions. Philosophers will spend a lifetime arguing about the
meaning of a word and never really get there. One is reminded of the
college student who was asked how his philosophy class was going. He
replied that they had not done much because when the teacher tried to
call roll, the kids kept arguing about whether they existed or not.
Most of us who live and work in the real world do not concern
ourselves with such activities. We realize that such discussions may
have value and interest in the academic world, but the stress and
pressure of day-to-day life forces us to deal with a very pragmatic
way of making decisions. If I ask you to prove to me that you have
$2.00, you would show it to me. Even in more abstract things we use
common sense and practical reasoning. If I ask you whether a certain
person is honest or not, you do not flood the air with dissertations
on the relative nature of honesty; you would give me evidence one way
or the other. The techniques of much of the philosophical arguments
that go on would eliminate most of engineering and technology if they
were applied in those fields.
The purpose of this brief study is to offer a logical, practical,
pragmatic proof of the existence of God from a purely scientific
perspective. To do this, we are assuming that we exist, that there is
reality, and that the matter of which we are made is real. If you do
not believe that you exist, you have bigger problems than this study
will entail and you will have to look elsewhere.
THE BEGINNING
If we do exist, there are only two possible explanations as to how our
existence came to be. Either we had a beginning or we did not have a
beginning. The Bible says, "In the beginning God created the heaven
and the earth" (Genesis 1 :1). The atheist has always maintained that
there was no beginning. The idea is that matter has always existed in
the form of either matter or energy; and all that has happened is that
matter has been changed from form to
form, but it has always been. The Humanist Manifesto says, "Matter is
self-existing and not created," and that is a concise statement of the
atheist's belief.
The way we decide whether the atheist is correct or not is to see what
science has discovered about this question. The picture below on the
left represents our part of the cosmos. Each of the disk shaped
objects is a galaxy like our Milky Way. All of these galaxies are
moving relative to each other. Their movement has a very distinct
pattern which causes the distance between the galaxies to get greater
with every passing day. If we had three galaxies located at positions
A, B. and C in the second diagram below, and if they are located as
shown, tomorrow they will be further apart. The triangle they form
will be bigger. The day after tomorrow the triangle will be bigger
yet. We live in an expanding universe that gets bigger and bigger and
bigger with every passing day.
Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located
at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together.
The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all
the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what
scientists call a singularity!
A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos. The
picture to the right is a picture of the sun. Like all stars, the sun
generates its energy by a nuclear process known as thermonuclear
fusion. Every second that passes, the sun compresses 564 million tons
of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of
matter released as energy. In spite of that tremendous consumption of
fuel, the sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had the day it
came into existence. This incredible furnace is not a process confined
to the sun. Every star in the sky generates its energy in the same
way. Throughout the cosmos there are 25 quintillion stars, each
converting hydrogen into helium, thereby reducing the total amount of
hydrogen in the cosmos. Just think about it! If everywhere in the
cosmos hydrogen is being consumed and if the process has been going on
forever, how much hydrogen should be left?
Suppose I attempt to drive my automobile without putting any more gas
(fuel) into it. As I drive and drive, what is eventually going to
happen? I am going to run out of gas I If the cosmos has been here
forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago! The fact is,
however, that the sun still has 98% of its original hydrogen. The fact
is that hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe!
Everywhere we look in space we can see the hydrogen 21 cm line in the
spectrum_a piece of light only given off by hydrogen. This could not
be unless we had a beginning!
A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the
second law of thermodynamics. In any closed system, things tend to
become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years
without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it
would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second
law of thermodynamics. In space, things also get old. Astronomers
refer to the aging process as heat death. If the cosmos is "everything
that ever was or is or ever will be," as Dr. Carl Sagan is so fond of
saying, nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair
it. Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again
forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it
expanded and rebounded.
The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is
scientifically wrong. The biblical assertion that there was a
beginning is scientifically correct.
THE CAUSE
If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another
logical question_was the creation caused or was it not caused? The
Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause_a creation_but
it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. The atheist tells us
that "matter is self-existing and not created." If matter had a
beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that
something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From
empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence,
matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by
some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical
problem.
In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws
dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong,
invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of
angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics.
All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be
wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set
not work!! Your television set may not work, but that is not the
reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard
known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to
do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position.
The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's
assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also
incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was
caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.
THE DESIGN
If we know that the creation had a beginning and we know that the
beginning was caused, there is one last question for us to
answer--what was the cause? The Bible tells us that God was the cause.
We are further told that the God who did the causing did so with
planning and reason and logic. Romans 1:20 tells us that we can know
God is
"through the things he has made." The atheist, on the other hand, will
try to convince us that we are the product of chance. Julian Huxley
once said:
We are as much a product of blind forces as is the falling of a stone
to earth or the ebb and flow of the tides. We have just happened, and
man was made flesh by a long series of singularly beneficial
accidents.
The subject of design has been one that has been explored in many
different ways. For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is
enough to rule out chance. Modern-day scientists like Paul Davies and
Frederick Hoyle and others are raising elaborate objections to the use
of chance in explaining natural phenomena. A principle of modern
science has emerged in the 1980s called "the anthropic principle." The
basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a
valid mechanism to explain the atom or life. If chance is not valid,
we are constrained to reject Huxley's claim and to realize that we are
the product of an intelligent God.
THE NEXT STEP
We have seen a practical proof of God's existence in this brief study.
A flood of questions arise at this point. Which God are we talking
about? Where did God come from? Why did God create us? How did God
create us?
All of these and many more are answered in the same way_by looking at
the evidence in a practical, common sense way. If you are interested
in pursuing these things in more detail, we invite you to contact us.
We have books, audio tapes, video tapes, correspondence courses, and
booklets available and all can be obtained on loan without cost. Just
request our catalog from:
DOES GOD EXIST?
718 E. Donmoyer Ave.
South Bend IN 46614-1999
REFERENCES:
Hoyle, Frederick, The Intelligent Universe, Holt, Rinehart & Winston,
1983.
Humanist Manifesto I and 11, Prometheus Books, 700 East Amherst St.,
Buffalo, NY 14215, 1985.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to Does God Exist?
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| User: "Sorcier" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
19 Dec 2003 12:09:52 PM |
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Justisaur wrote:
Sorcier wrote:
Denis Loubet wrote:
So, point at the god so we all can see that it's there. Should be simple.
Unless it doesn't exist.
Point at the President.
I think that's more proof of conspiracy than of god...
<g>
Nah, I mean no one has ever proved to me that we actually
have a President either.
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| User: "Virtualoso" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 04:31:59 PM |
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In article <hoWdndcuv_MKgn-iRVn-tA@io.com>, Denis Loubet
<dloubet@io.com> wrote:
"Henry Cotter" <henry_cotter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com...
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
The existence of God is a subject that has occupied schools of
philosophy and theology for thousands of years. Most of the time,
these debates have revolved around all kinds of assumptions and
definitions. Philosophers will spend a lifetime arguing about the
meaning of a word and never really get there. One is reminded of the
college student who was asked how his philosophy class was going. He
replied that they had not done much because when the teacher tried to
call roll, the kids kept arguing about whether they existed or not.
Most of us who live and work in the real world do not concern
ourselves with such activities. We realize that such discussions may
have value and interest in the academic world, but the stress and
pressure of day-to-day life forces us to deal with a very pragmatic
way of making decisions. If I ask you to prove to me that you have
$2.00, you would show it to me.
So rather than simply showing us this god, you provide a dissertation, a
thing you criticize from other people.
So, point at the god so we all can see that it's there. Should be simple.
Unless it doesn't exist.
Please show us your "self" so that it can be shown something else.
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| User: "Soylent Green is Clayton....BITE ME!!" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
17 Dec 2003 04:05:46 AM |
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"Henry Cotter" <henry_cotter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com...
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
<snip standard lies and ***** Cotter has re-posted for years>
Fuckwit Henry is back.
When are you going to learn, moron, that it doesn't matter how many times
you repeat the same lie, it's still a lie.
<re-plonk>
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| User: "Malachias Invictus" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 10:25:43 AM |
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"Henry Cotter" <henry_cotter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com...
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
Cotter, you jizzrag. Try coming up with something original.
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.
from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
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| User: "Henry Cotter" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 05:43:03 PM |
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"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<vu3l4fekldgcf9@corp.supernews.com>...
"Henry Cotter" <henry_cotter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com...
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
Cotter, you jizzrag. Try coming up with something original.
I'll do so when atheists can come up with an original argument of their own.
--
Henry Cotter
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| User: "Mike P" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
19 Dec 2003 06:42:54 AM |
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Did you know that only you can prevent kill files. Don't cross post that's
all you have to do. Thank you.
Mike
"Henry Cotter" <henry_cotter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f6d7e77.0312181543.681d0535@posting.google.com...
"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<vu3l4fekldgcf9@corp.supernews.com>...
"Henry Cotter" <henry_cotter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com...
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
Cotter, you jizzrag. Try coming up with something original.
I'll do so when atheists can come up with an original argument of their
own.
--
Henry Cotter
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| User: "Sorcier" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 01:13:03 PM |
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Henry Cotter wrote:
"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<vu3l4fekldgcf9@corp.supernews.com>...
"Henry Cotter" <henry_cotter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com...
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
Cotter, you jizzrag. Try coming up with something original.
I'll do so when atheists can come up with an original argument of their own.
We might settle for something accurate...
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 06:20:48 PM |
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On 18 Dec 2003 15:43:03 -0800, (Henry Cotter)
wrote:
"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<vu3l4fekldgcf9@corp.supernews.com>...
"Henry Cotter" < > wrote in message
news:9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com...
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
Cotter, you jizzrag. Try coming up with something original.
I'll do so when atheists can come up with an original argument of their own.
We've got nothing to argue, idiot. YOU bring up the subject of your
deity ad nauseum. So YOU heve to either put up or shut up.
Unfortunately you do neither.
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| User: "James Quick" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 04:09:22 PM |
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In article <vu3l4fekldgcf9@corp.supernews.com>,
"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
Cotter, you jizzrag.
That was fuckin' hee-lare-eee-us.
--
James Quick [][][]
I find this embrace of cognitive dissonance somewhat perplexing.
It makes me want to kick you in the nuts.
- MSB to Cope, on rgfd
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| User: "Andy" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
17 Dec 2003 04:12:40 AM |
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"Henry Cotter" <henry_cotter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com...
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
[snip bollocks]
If we must have had a beginning and therefore must have been created, then
what created us must have had a beginning and must have been created and
that in turn must have had a beginning... So in effect you have an infinite
chain with no beginning which refutes the assumption that the universe can't
be eternal. God or no, something really has always existed.
Of course 'always' is subject to the laws that govern time and may not
really mean always...
Andy
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| User: "Whiskey Breath" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
17 Dec 2003 08:43:25 AM |
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"Henry Cotter" <henry_cotter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com...
The real question, dingleberry, is do _you_ exist, or are you simply
another bot?
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| User: "CQMMAN" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
17 Dec 2003 03:44:37 AM |
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"Henry Cotter" <henry_cotter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com...
You have no idea about what you are talking about, or about the mind on
atheist. I am an atheist but don't believe that the universe has always
existed. Very few atheists will argue that the big-bang didn't happen. That
tends to be more of a christians remit.
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| User: "Malachias Invictus" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 10:32:34 AM |
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"CQMMAN" <cqmman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:brp87m$5q1ml$1@ID-215193.news.uni-berlin.de...
You have no idea about what you are talking about, or about the mind on
atheist.
There is only one mind on alt.atheist? Weird.
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.
from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 11:56:36 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:32:34 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
"CQMMAN" <cqmman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:brp87m$5q1ml$1@ID-215193.news.uni-berlin.de...
You have no idea about what you are talking about, or about the mind on
atheist.
There is only one mind on alt.atheist? Weird.
Not weird, just a lie.
Henry Cotter likes to quote various beliefs and pretend that all
atheists hold them. We have often told him that many of us do not
believe these things - but he does not care.
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| User: "Malachias Invictus" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 06:22:58 PM |
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"Martin Thomas" <mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote in message
news:3bq3uvsk1kgojs2a75v0tuikd1bch29tr2@4ax.com...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:32:34 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
"CQMMAN" <cqmman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:brp87m$5q1ml$1@ID-215193.news.uni-berlin.de...
You have no idea about what you are talking about, or about the mind on
atheist.
There is only one mind on alt.atheist? Weird.
Not weird, just a lie.
Henry Cotter likes to quote various beliefs and pretend that all
atheists hold them. We have often told him that many of us do not
believe these things - but he does not care.
Well, that is because Cotter is an annoying fuckwit troll.
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.
from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
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| User: "Virtualoso" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 12:44:36 PM |
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In article <3bq3uvsk1kgojs2a75v0tuikd1bch29tr2@4ax.com>, Martin Thomas
<mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:32:34 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
"CQMMAN" <cqmman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:brp87m$5q1ml$1@ID-215193.news.uni-berlin.de...
You have no idea about what you are talking about, or about the mind on
atheist.
There is only one mind on alt.atheist? Weird.
Not weird, just a lie.
Henry Cotter likes to quote various beliefs and pretend that all
atheists hold them. We have often told him that many of us do not
believe these things - but he does not care.
Maybe what's missing is just how posting only verbatim quoted text from
someone else signifies all this other detail about what HC is
pretending about it.
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| User: "Jeremy Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
17 Dec 2003 09:12:44 AM |
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(henry_cotter@hotmail.com (Henry Cotter)):
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
Wow, this nut is still around, too?
--
Jeremy Martin
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| User: "Phylter" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
17 Dec 2003 05:50:37 AM |
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(Henry Cotter) astounded us with:
news:9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com:
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
LOL! What does a "practical man" need with a deity?
Oh, I forgot......
--
Phylter
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
http://www.rudraigh.com/afjc/regulars.html
Change "freeway" to "hotmail" to respond
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
17 Dec 2003 12:12:27 PM |
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Henry Cotter writes:
Henry> If we do exist, there are only two possible explanations as to how our
Henry> existence came to be. Either we had a beginning or we did not have a
Henry> beginning. The Bible says, "In the beginning God created the heaven
Henry> and the earth" (Genesis 1 :1). The atheist has always maintained that
Henry> there was no beginning. The idea is that matter has always existed in
Henry> the form of either matter or energy; and all that has happened is that
Henry> matter has been changed from form to
Wrong from the beginning. We do not know.
Simple enough.
Henry> Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located
Henry> at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together.
Henry> The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all
Henry> the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what
Henry> scientists call a singularity!
Do you think the big bang theory is a proof of a god or gods?
That is a very odd belief.
Henry> A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos. The
Henry> picture to the right is a picture of the sun. Like all stars, the sun
Henry> generates its energy by a nuclear process known as thermonuclear
Henry> fusion. Every second that passes, the sun compresses 564 million tons
Henry> of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of
Henry> matter released as energy. In spite of that tremendous consumption of
Henry> fuel, the sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had the day it
Henry> came into existence. This incredible furnace is not a process confined
Henry> to the sun. Every star in the sky generates its energy in the same
Henry> way. Throughout the cosmos there are 25 quintillion stars, each
Henry> converting hydrogen into helium, thereby reducing the total amount of
Henry> hydrogen in the cosmos. Just think about it! If everywhere in the
Henry> cosmos hydrogen is being consumed and if the process has been going on
Henry> forever, how much hydrogen should be left?
So is your whole "proof" based on the apparent finite life
of the observed universe?
That would be very odd.
Henry> Suppose I attempt to drive my automobile without putting any more gas
Henry> (fuel) into it. As I drive and drive, what is eventually going to
Henry> happen? I am going to run out of gas I If the cosmos has been here
Henry> forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago! The fact is,
Henry> however, that the sun still has 98% of its original hydrogen. The fact
Henry> is that hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe!
Henry> Everywhere we look in space we can see the hydrogen 21 cm line in the
Henry> spectrum_a piece of light only given off by hydrogen. This could not
Henry> be unless we had a beginning!
Henry> A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the
Henry> second law of thermodynamics. In any closed system, things tend to
Henry> become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years
Henry> without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it
Henry> would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second
Henry> law of thermodynamics. In space, things also get old. Astronomers
Henry> refer to the aging process as heat death. If the cosmos is "everything
Henry> that ever was or is or ever will be," as Dr. Carl Sagan is so fond of
Henry> saying, nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair
Henry> it. Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again
Henry> forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it
Henry> expanded and rebounded.
Yep, more finite life stuff.
Henry> The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is
Henry> scientifically wrong. The biblical assertion that there was a
Henry> beginning is scientifically correct.
I suggest you study up on logic.
[snip of more nonsense]
Henry> We have seen a practical proof of God's existence in this brief study.
No, you might imagine there is a proof there. But there
is nothing of the sort. Just some confused babbling.
--
Andrew Hall
(Now reading Usenet in talk.politics.misc...)
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| User: "redc1c4" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
17 Dec 2003 02:28:04 AM |
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Henry Cotter wrote:
(snipage occurs, fore and aft)
A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos. The
picture to the right is a picture of the sun. Like all stars, the sun
generates its energy by a nuclear process known as thermonuclear
fusion. Every second that passes, the sun compresses 564 million tons
of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of
matter released as energy. In spite of that tremendous consumption of
fuel, the sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had the day it
came into existence. This incredible furnace is not a process confined
to the sun. Every star in the sky generates its energy in the same
way. Throughout the cosmos there are 25 quintillion stars, each
converting hydrogen into helium, thereby reducing the total amount of
hydrogen in the cosmos. Just think about it! If everywhere in the
cosmos hydrogen is being consumed and if the process has been going on
forever, how much hydrogen should be left?
Suppose I attempt to drive my automobile without putting any more gas
(fuel) into it. As I drive and drive, what is eventually going to
happen? I am going to run out of gas I If the cosmos has been here
forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago! The fact is,
however, that the sun still has 98% of its original hydrogen. The fact
is that hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe!
Everywhere we look in space we can see the hydrogen 21 cm line in the
spectrum_a piece of light only given off by hydrogen. This could not
be unless we had a beginning!
if this is true, why is that my bottles of Zinfandel and IPA empty?
redc1c4,
besides which, Zapper pointed out that stupidity is the most common
element in the universe; a point you prove all too well. %-)
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."
Army Officer's Guide
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
17 Dec 2003 06:37:59 AM |
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In alt.atheism on 17 Dec 2003 00:11:14 -0800,
(Henry Cotter) let us all know that:
....he spammed this piece of ***** 4 times and it contained
refuted to death arguments.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Henry Cotter" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 05:46:00 PM |
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Don Kresch <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message news:<uoj0uvscbdm8ummo6h4o930jkue74otsur@4ax.com>...
In alt.atheism on 17 Dec 2003 00:11:14 -0800,
(Henry Cotter) let us all know that:
....he spammed this piece of ***** 4 times and it contained
refuted to death arguments.
Prove it.
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 08:22:37 PM |
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On 18 Dec 2003 15:46:00 -0800, (Henry
Cotter) wrote to:
alt.atheism
alt.recovery.aa
talk.politics.misc
I snipped the second and third of these.
Don Kresch <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message news:<uoj0uvscbdm8ummo6h4o930jkue74otsur@4ax.com>...
In alt.atheism on 17 Dec 2003 00:11:14 -0800,
(Henry Cotter) let us all know that:
....he spammed this piece of ***** 4 times and it contained
refuted to death arguments.
Prove it.
Firstly, Congratulations on finally screwing up the courage to
join in the discussion! Many of us had assumed that you would
hold yourself aloof for ever.
You ask Don Kresh to prove what he says. However, many people
have already posted refutations to your arguments. If you do not
accept what they say, you might like to answer them directly.
If they are still listening, that is. Some people, noting your
long standing refusal to join in the discussion your posts
triggered, will have kill filed you.
-
Martin Thomas
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
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| User: "Henry Cotter" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
19 Dec 2003 12:29:49 AM |
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Martin Thomas <mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote in message news:<vdn4uvk3ou62bk1isvnkr0sjpj81eisto9@4ax.com>...
On 18 Dec 2003 15:46:00 -0800, (Henry
Cotter) wrote to:
alt.atheism
alt.recovery.aa
talk.politics.misc
I snipped the second and third of these.
Don Kresch <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message news:<uoj0uvscbdm8ummo6h4o930jkue74otsur@4ax.com>...
In alt.atheism on 17 Dec 2003 00:11:14 -0800,
(Henry Cotter) let us all know that:
....he spammed this piece of ***** 4 times and it contained
refuted to death arguments.
Prove it.
Firstly, Congratulations on finally screwing up the courage to
join in the discussion! Many of us had assumed that you would
hold yourself aloof for ever.
Does that thought give you an erection?
You ask Don Kresh to prove what he says. However, many people
have already posted refutations to your arguments. If you do not
accept what they say, you might like to answer them directly.
What refutations? They been nothing but ad homs, little man.
If they are still listening, that is. Some people, noting your
long standing refusal to join in the discussion your posts
triggered, will have kill filed you.
So?
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
19 Dec 2003 05:36:43 AM |
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On 18 Dec 2003 22:29:49 -0800, (Henry
Cotter) wrote:
Martin Thomas <mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote in message news:<vdn4uvk3ou62bk1isvnkr0sjpj81eisto9@4ax.com>...
On 18 Dec 2003 15:46:00 -0800, (Henry
Cotter) wrote to:
alt.atheism
alt.recovery.aa
talk.politics.misc
I snipped the second and third of these.
Don Kresch <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message news:<uoj0uvscbdm8ummo6h4o930jkue74otsur@4ax.com>...
In alt.atheism on 17 Dec 2003 00:11:14 -0800,
(Henry Cotter) let us all know that:
....he spammed this piece of ***** 4 times and it contained
refuted to death arguments.
Prove it.
Firstly, Congratulations on finally screwing up the courage to
join in the discussion! Many of us had assumed that you would
hold yourself aloof for ever.
Does that thought give you an erection?
If you have a therapist, he is probably delighted that you are
spewing out this rubbish, rather than bottling it up. But don't
be to upset if a lot of people stop talking to you till you grow
up.
And you don't HAVE to grow up, of course.
You ask Don Kresh to prove what he says. However, many people
have already posted refutations to your arguments. If you do not
accept what they say, you might like to answer them directly.
What refutations? They been nothing but ad homs, little man.
In among the insults, there have been several careful, thoughtful
posts. It does not matter if you simply ignore them and only
respond to the insults. Not if you want to remain thick, that is.
If they are still listening, that is. Some people, noting your
long standing refusal to join in the discussion your posts
triggered, will have kill filed you.
So?
You will never know what you are missing.
I bet that a lot of decent theists ignore you as well.
-
Martin Thomas
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
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| User: "James Quick" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
17 Dec 2003 06:17:31 AM |
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In article <9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com>,
(Henry Cotter) wrote:
<some crossposted trolling crap>
Please keep this discussion out of rgfd.
--
James Quick [][][]
I find this embrace of cognitive dissonance somewhat perplexing.
It makes me want to kick you in the nuts.
- MSB to Cope, on rgfd
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| User: "Steve Makohin" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
17 Dec 2003 03:20:09 PM |
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In article <9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com>,
(Henry Cotter) wrote:
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD
The existence of God is a subject that has occupied schools of
philosophy and theology for thousands of years...
[snip useless stuff]
You are 100% correct! But it has never occupied a place in science,
and that's where the "practical man's" head is at, so to speak. If you
want to discuss peoples' faith, then talk to theologians. If you want
to bicker about peoples' perceptions and values pertaining to the
existence of a deity, or whether it's "right" to believe in the
unproven, then talk to philosophers. But if you want to discover the
facts, the _reality_ as to what exists and what likely doesn't, use
science as your most effective tool for getting to the truth!
When it comes to "proof of God", Science will simply look you in the
eye and say "you assert that a God exists; well, put your religion and
your philosophy aside, and lay your scientific proof out on the table
for it to be reviewed, scrutinized, and independently validated." You
have not done that.
You are still mired in religion and philosophy, and you have presented
no scientific proof of God's existence. The same as those who came
before you. There are good reasons why Science has not concluded that
a God exists: because it has not been proven to be so, and because
there is nothing meaningful to suggest that that may be the case.
[...]
Back to Does God Exist?
There is no real debate here. Atheists simply fold their arms on their
chest and say "you claim there is a god, then prove it!" And by
"prove," they mean using the most advanced methods of science, and not
philosophy, religion, or simply arguments of logic. They mean *real*
proof.
Theists, on the other hand, remain frustrated because their faith is
unshaken, yet they have no means by which to convince the
"unbelievers" of what they "know" to be true.
After spending much time carefully crafting your written work, you
have not managed to move atheists or theists one picometer from the
position I describe above.
(PS: I have not posted my reply to rec.games.frp.dnd,
us.military.army, alt.recovery.aa, talk.politics.misc because this
material does not pertain to them.)
-Steve Makohin | Reply to
| (hotmail acct is spam catcher)
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 02:31:06 PM |
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In our last episode,
<9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com>,
the lovely and talented Henry Cotter
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located
at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together.
The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all
the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what
scientists call a singularity!
So what?
A second proof
You cannot have a second proof until you make a first.
A third scientific proof
You have not provided either a second proof or a second proof.
The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is
scientifically wrong.
No, it isn't. Matter/energy is eternal. It has always existed.
You have done nothing to disprove that.
The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's
assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also
incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was
caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.
You are a lying *****.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- http://www.io.com/~eighner/
Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek,
but a means by which we arrive at that goal.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 03:50:15 PM |
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Lars Eighner writes:
Lars> In our last episode,
9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com>,
Lars> the lovely and talented Henry Cotter
Lars> broadcast on alt.atheism:
Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located
at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together.
The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all
the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what
scientists call a singularity!
Lars> So what?
A second proof
Lars> You cannot have a second proof until you make a first.
A third scientific proof
Lars> You have not provided either a second proof or a second proof.
The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is
scientifically wrong.
Lars> No, it isn't. Matter/energy is eternal. It has always existed.
I was with you until here, but now you are showing faith.
We do not know what came before the big bang. We have ideas,
but no accepted theory, certainly no experimental data.
Lars> You have done nothing to disprove that.
Now I am back with you.
The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's
assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also
incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was
caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.
Lars> You are a lying *****.
Perhaps, perhaps just sadly deluded and stupid.
--
Andrew Hall
(Now reading Usenet in talk.politics.misc...)
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: Proof of God's Existence for the Atheist Fundies out there |
18 Dec 2003 04:08:55 PM |
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In our last episode,
<kpgad5phk2w.fsf@panix3.panix.com>,
the lovely and talented <ahall@no-spam-panix.com>
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Lars Eighner writes:
Lars> In our last episode,
9f6d7e77.0312170011.4da81f88@posting.google.com>,
Lars> the lovely and talented Henry Cotter
Lars> broadcast on alt.atheism:
Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located
at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together.
The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all
the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what
scientists call a singularity!
Lars> So what?
A second proof
Lars> You cannot have a second proof until you make a first.
A third scientific proof
Lars> You have not provided either a second proof or a second proof.
The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is
scientifically wrong.
Lars> No, it isn't. Matter/energy is eternal. It has always existed.
I was with you until here, but now you are showing faith.
We do not know what came before the big bang.
There is not such time as "before the big bang." Just like
the north pole is as far north as you can go, the big bang
is as "before" as you can go. Saying you don't know what
came before the big bang is about the same as saying you
don't know what is north of north. It is nonsense.
We have ideas,
but no accepted theory, certainly no experimental data.
Lars> You have done nothing to disprove that.
Now I am back with you.
The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's
assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also
incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was
caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.
Lars> You are a lying *****.
Perhaps, perhaps just sadly deluded and stupid.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- http://www.io.com/~eighner/
We used to wonder where war lived, what it was that made it so vile.
And now we realize that we know where it lives, that it is inside ourselves.
- Albert Camus
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