| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" |
| Date: |
21 Jan 2007 07:13:20 AM |
| Object: |
Proof of LORD Almighty GOD: HIS creation of the universe. |
brother Melchizedek wrote:
"Father Haskell" wrote:
WhewAustralopithicus wrote:
"Father Haskell" wrote:
brother Melchizedek wrote:
"St. Jackanapes" wrote:
<snip>
Whack-A-Fundy
Squash a Liver!
50 Yard Bible Toss!
Oh goodie, a picnic. I'll bring the potato salad.
Melchy says he'll bring the goat.
FA talking to him/her self, huh ... :-)
Divine Design
"Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring
you closer to God."
-James Tour, Nanoscientist
The astronomical evidence for God must be strong when atheistic physicists admit that "the universe exploded out of nothingness,"
and agnostic astronomers claim that "supernatural forces" were so at work in the beginning that scientists are led back to "a band
of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries" (see chapter 3). But the scientific evidence for God does not end with the
Cosmological Argument. For many, the precision with which the universe exploded into being provides even more persuasive evidence
for the existence of God.
This evidence, technically known as the Teleological Argument, derives its name from the Greek word telos, which means "design." The
Teleological Argument goes like this:
1. Every design had a designer.
2. The universe has highly complex design.
3. Therefore, the universe had a Designer.
Isaac Newton (1642-1727) implicitly confirmed the validity of the Teleological Argument when he marveled at the design of our solar
system. He wrote, "This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an
intelligent and powerful Being."?1? Yet it was William Paley (1743-1805) who made the argument famous by his commonsense assertion
that every watch requires a watchmaker. Imagine you're walking along in the woods and you find a diamond-studded Rolex on the
ground. What do you conclude is the cause of that watch: The wind and the rain? Erosion? Some combination of natural forces? Of
course not! There's absolutely no question in your mind that some intelligent being made that watch, and that some unfortunate
individual must have accidentally dropped it there.
Scientists are now finding that the universe in which we live is like that diamond-studded Rolex, except the universe is even more
precisely designed than the watch. In fact, the universe is specifically tweaked to enable life on earth-a planet with scores of
improbable and interdependent life-supporting conditions that make it a tiny oasis in a vast and hostile universe.
These highly precise and interdependent environmental conditions (which are called "anthropic constants") make up what is known as
the "Anthropic Principle." "Anthropic" comes from a Greek word that means "human" or "man." The Anthropic Principle is just a fancy
title for the mounting evidence that has many scientists believing that the universe is extremely fine-tuned (designed) to support
human life here on earth.
In this vast and hostile universe, we earthlings are much like astronauts who can survive only in the small confines of their
spaceship. Like a spaceship, our earth supports life as it hurls through lifeless space. But also like a spaceship, a slight change
or malfunction in any one of a number of factors-in either the universe or the earth itself-could fatally alter the narrowly defined
environmental conditions we need to survive.
Apollo 13, one of the most challenging and famed missions in the history of NASA, will help drive this point home. We're going spend
the next few pages aboard Apollo 13. And as we do, we'll point out some of the anthropic constants that make our lives possible.
1 Isaac Newton, "General Scholium," in Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy (1687) in Great Books of the Western World,
Robert M. Hutchins, ed. (Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica, n.d.), 369.
Geisler, N. L., & Turek, F. (2004). I don't have enough faith to be an atheist (95). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for HIS compelling
you to post this.
Laus Deo ! ! !
Let us continue to prayer for our dear friends and neighbors who have
been convicted by the Holy Spirit:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts
For they are in danger of unwisely choosing to blaspheme the Holy
Spirit thereby becoming demons:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/6f0944c007976167?
May GOD continue to heal our hearts with HIS living water so that we
can love our neighbors a little more and LORD Jesus Christ a whole lot
more, dear brother Melchizedek whom I love unconditionally.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love
.
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| User: "James" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
16 Mar 2007 11:40:43 AM |
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"Pastor Kutchie" <user13@heathens.org.uk>
Re: God rests on a logical fallacy.
Melchizedek wrote:
No defense is given concerning the existence of God.
No defence is possible, since there is no evidence of your god or any
other gods, and neither is it even possible to offer evidence, since,
by definition there can be no valid evidence. That means that your
entire belief system rests on a logical fallacy of argument from
special pleading.
<clunk> <gurgle>
Hello,
there is no evidence of your god
Just like when you walk into an art store and see those paintings, but
do not see their creators, just because you don't see their creators
you don't conclude that there were none, do you?
As you have probably heard a zillion times (but for some reason don't
accept the logic), we can see God's handiwork all around us. We can
see the things He accomplished long ago. We can see His 'footprints'
all over the place, so to speak, by His highly designed creations.
Hopefully someday you will come to recognize this.
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
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| User: "Unsaved White Trash" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
16 Mar 2007 11:56:41 AM |
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"James" <bireda@allvantage.com> wrote in message
news:kehlv2le9bsnqkbs1su4u8gtkvagnf6cq3@4ax.com...
"Pastor Kutchie" <user13@heathens.org.uk>
Re: God rests on a logical fallacy.
Melchizedek wrote:
No defense is given concerning the existence of God.
No defence is possible, since there is no evidence of your god or any
other gods, and neither is it even possible to offer evidence, since,
by definition there can be no valid evidence. That means that your
entire belief system rests on a logical fallacy of argument from
special pleading.
<clunk> <gurgle>
Hello,
there is no evidence of your god
Just like when you walk into an art store and see those paintings, but
do not see their creators, just because you don't see their creators
you don't conclude that there were none, do you?
So what you are saying is that your god made those paintings?
We can analyse the properties of a painting to show that all aspects were
manmade.
Therefore, it can be scientifically proven that paintings are created by
people.
You can study and disect a grasshopper until the end of time and you will
never find any tangible evidence that it was created by anything other than
reproduction, and observable process.
Can you show observable evidence that can be tested to show that the origins
of the grasshopper came from the wave of a magic wand? I think not.
As you have probably heard a zillion times (but for some reason don't
accept the logic), we can see God's handiwork all around us. We can
see the things He accomplished long ago. We can see His 'footprints'
all over the place, so to speak, by His highly designed creations.
Hopefully someday you will come to recognize this.
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
.
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| User: "Jeckyl" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
16 Mar 2007 07:35:23 PM |
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"James" <bireda@allvantage.com> wrote in message
news:kehlv2le9bsnqkbs1su4u8gtkvagnf6cq3@4ax.com...
"Pastor Kutchie" <user13@heathens.org.uk>
Re: God rests on a logical fallacy.
Just like when you walk into an art store and see those paintings, but
do not see their creators, just because you don't see their creators
you don't conclude that there were none, do you?
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created by the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what theist claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it, as the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
As you have probably heard a zillion times (but for some reason don't
accept the logic), we can see God's handiwork all around us. We can
see the things He accomplished long ago. We can see His 'footprints'
all over the place, so to speak, by His highly designed creations.
Hopefully someday you will come to recognize this.
It is in no way proof. often awe-inspiring and beautiful, but not proof.
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| User: "rjbjr" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
17 Mar 2007 07:19:48 AM |
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"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created by the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it, as the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the universe created
itself without a creator?
Thanks a bunch,
RJBJR
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
17 Mar 2007 09:00:55 PM |
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"rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it, as the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the universe
created
itself without a creator?
The universe was not created, i.e. it was not popped into existence from one
moment to the next.
It was formed. It developed to this point over a very long period of time -
sort of like evolution.
This is provable by observing the movement of the stars.
One thing about the Christian god is that its a very un-natural god.
Other gods are better.
Thanks a bunch,
RJBJR
--
Andrew W.
Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth.
How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to
life from one convenient book.
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.fipdata.org/index.html
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
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| User: "Jeckyl" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
17 Mar 2007 11:32:01 PM |
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"rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it, as the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word 'created' because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the beginning of
time.
.
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| User: "rjbjr" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
18 Mar 2007 12:38:55 PM |
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"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it, as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word 'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you are
saying.
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15 billion of
our years ago. That's when time and the space as we know it started to
exist. So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree. I'm
assuming you agree also. My question is "what caused this big bang to
happen?" I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you had
some reference I could go to that explains how this big bang, the start of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of intelligence
being behind that event.
Thank you for your patience with me.
RJBJR
.
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| User: "Jeckyl" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
18 Mar 2007 05:50:58 PM |
|
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"rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:DtWdnTXVO_-49mDYnZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it, as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word 'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you are
saying.
That's good
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15 billion
of
our years ago.
That's the generally accepted theory
That's when time and the space as we know it started to
exist.
Yes
So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree.
No . the bible says it was only a few thousand years ago.
But if you are saying that there was a 'beginning', then yes.
"what caused this big bang to happen?"
I do not know. Perhaps there are some genuine scientific 'answers'
proposed, I'm simply not familiar with them.
I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you had
some reference I could go to
Such a reference may exist .. I just don't know of it .. sorry.
that explains how this big bang, the start of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of intelligence
being behind that event.
I simply do not know .. I'm not sure a scientific explanation of that
exists.
However, inventing a creator that exists outside of the universe and outside
of time, that has no creator of its own and is somehow able to affect the
matter and engry of our universe and bring it into existence is not an
answer .. its is just raises even more questions. it is not really
necessary for us to have to invent a being to provide an answer .. that
would then negate our need to find the true answer. Relgious beliefs have
long been the bane of the pursuit of truth and knowledge.
Thank you for your patience with me.
You're welcome.
.
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| User: "rjbjr" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
19 Mar 2007 09:28:00 AM |
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"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vrgimk90lsbec@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what
theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it,
as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the universe
created
itself without a creator?
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the
beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you are
saying.
That's good
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15
billion
of
our years ago.
That's the generally accepted theory
That's when time and the space as we know it started to
exist.
Yes
So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree.
No . the bible says it was only a few thousand years ago.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I don't agree. The Bible also says the universe was created about 15
billion years ago. The "days" of Genesis must be from the perspective of an
observer present at the moment matter was formed. If you interpret Genesis
from that perspective, the 6 days of creation matches the billions of years
we observe from our perspective after the earth was formed and man examines
the physical record.
But if you are saying that there was a 'beginning', then yes.
"what caused this big bang to happen?"
I do not know. Perhaps there are some genuine scientific 'answers'
proposed, I'm simply not familiar with them.
I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you had
some reference I could go to
Such a reference may exist .. I just don't know of it .. sorry.
that explains how this big bang, the start of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
I simply do not know .. I'm not sure a scientific explanation of that
exists.
However, inventing a creator that exists outside of the universe and
outside
of time, that has no creator of its own and is somehow able to affect the
matter and engry of our universe and bring it into existence is not an
answer .. its is just raises even more questions. it is not really
necessary for us to have to invent a being to provide an answer .. that
would then negate our need to find the true answer. Relgious beliefs have
long been the bane of the pursuit of truth and knowledge.
Thank you for your patience with me.
You're welcome.
Mr. Jeckyl,
Perhaps someone else can enlighten us on "the truth" of how this
creation/big bang occurred. I thought from your original statement you had
a reference. Until you do, I'll remain impressed that the Bible, written
thousands of years ago, matches what science current knows about the
creation of our universe.
Sincerely,
RJBJR
.
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| User: "Jeckyl" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
19 Mar 2007 09:29:52 AM |
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"rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LKqdnZZtyrZ4EmPYnZ2dnUVZ_oSnnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vrgimk90lsbec@corp.supernews.com...
So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree.
No . the bible says it was only a few thousand years ago.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I don't agree. The Bible also says the universe was created about 15
billion years ago.
It says nothing other than days
The "days" of Genesis must be from the perspective of an
observer present at the moment matter was formed. If you interpret
Genesis
from that perspective, the 6 days of creation matches the billions of
years
we observe from our perspective after the earth was formed and man
examines
the physical record.
It is not what is written .. its your interpretation based on what you know
to be fact in order to make what is written appear correct. 20/20 hindsight
is an effective way of distorting what is wrong so it look like it is right.
Mr. Jeckyl,
Perhaps someone else can enlighten us on "the truth" of how this
creation/big bang occurred. I thought from your original statement you
had
a reference.
I'd have to go hunting for the theories of the cause of the bang itself.
But that the bang happened is well accepted and well documented. It would
take very little to find information if you are truly unaware of it (I don't
hink you are) .. start in wikipedia.
All I know is that that is the best scientific explanation of the formation
of the universe that we have. And a scientific explanation is better than
requiring the existence of an inderterminate external being that raises more
unknown and contradications than we have without it.
Until you do, I'll remain impressed that the Bible, written
thousands of years ago, matches what science current knows about the
creation of our universe.
It matches incredibly little .. certainly no more than one would expect from
any other creation myth.
.
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| User: "rjbjr" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
20 Mar 2007 06:21:48 AM |
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"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vt7j7bhms0p77@corp.supernews.com...
So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree.
No . the bible says it was only a few thousand years ago.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I don't agree. The Bible also says the universe was created about 15
billion years ago.
It says nothing other than days
Mr. Jeckyl,
Yes, but the question is whose days?
The "days" of Genesis must be from the perspective of an
observer present at the moment matter was formed. If you interpret
Genesis
from that perspective, the 6 days of creation matches the billions of
years
we observe from our perspective after the earth was formed and man
examines
the physical record.
It is not what is written .. its your interpretation based on what you
know
to be fact in order to make what is written appear correct. 20/20
hindsight
is an effective way of distorting what is wrong so it look like it is
right.
Mr. Jeckyl,
You can believe it's hindsight. Our interpretation is hindsight.
But the Bible was correct all along. That's the amazing thing.
Mr. Jeckyl,
Perhaps someone else can enlighten us on "the truth" of how this
creation/big bang occurred. I thought from your original statement you
had
a reference.
I'd have to go hunting for the theories of the cause of the bang itself.
But that the bang happened is well accepted and well documented. It would
take very little to find information if you are truly unaware of it (I
don't
hink you are) .. start in wikipedia.
All I know is that that is the best scientific explanation of the
formation
of the universe that we have. And a scientific explanation is better than
requiring the existence of an inderterminate external being that raises
more
unknown and contradications than we have without it.
Mr. Jeckyl,
No I don't know of any scientific explanation for the cause of the big bang.
I am vaguely aware that there are some really weird postulations for the
cause of the big bang, but none of these are generally acceptable. All I
know is that astonomers have observed that there was a big bang - a point
where time and space popped into existence. Cause unknown.
Until you do, I'll remain impressed that the Bible, written
thousands of years ago, matches what science current knows about the
creation of our universe.
It matches incredibly little .. certainly no more than one would expect
from
any other creation myth.
As far as I know, no other creation "myth" matches today's science like the
Bible does. If you have another example, I'd be interested in that.
.
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| User: "Jeckyl" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
20 Mar 2007 05:40:09 AM |
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"rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Sd6dne2CivNfKGLYnZ2dnUVZ_qGjnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vt7j7bhms0p77@corp.supernews.com...
It is not what is written .. its your interpretation based on what you
know
to be fact in order to make what is written appear correct. 20/20
hindsight
is an effective way of distorting what is wrong so it look like it is
right.
Mr. Jeckyl,
You can believe it's hindsight. Our interpretation is hindsight.
Yes .. andin hindsight we can construct our interpretation to appear
'correct' (although there is very littel correct in the genesis stor(ies) of
creation
But the Bible was correct all along. That's the amazing thing.
No .. itwasre-intpreertted to be less incorrect.
It matches incredibly little .. certainly no more than one would expect
from any other creation myth.
As far as I know, no other creation "myth" matches today's science like
the
Bible does. If you have another example, I'd be interested in that.
That sounds like I've got some homework to do :)
.
|
|
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|
| User: "justiz" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
19 Mar 2007 09:23:23 AM |
|
|
On Mar 19, 4:28 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vrgimk90lsbec@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what
theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it,
as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the universe
created
itself without a creator?
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the
beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you are
saying.
That's good
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15
billion
of
our years ago.
That's the generally accepted theory
That's when time and the space as we know it started to
exist.
Yes
So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree.
No . the bible says it was only a few thousand years ago.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I don't agree. The Bible also says the universe was created about 15
billion years ago. The "days" of Genesis must be from the perspective of an
observer present at the moment matter was formed. If you interpret Genesis
from that perspective, the 6 days of creation matches the billions of years
we observe from our perspective after the earth was formed and man examines
the physical record.
But if you are saying that there was a 'beginning', then yes.
"what caused this big bang to happen?"
I do not know. Perhaps there are some genuine scientific 'answers'
proposed, I'm simply not familiar with them.
I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you had
some reference I could go to
Such a reference may exist .. I just don't know of it .. sorry.
that explains how this big bang, the start of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
I simply do not know .. I'm not sure a scientific explanation of that
exists.
However, inventing a creator that exists outside of the universe and
outside
of time, that has no creator of its own and is somehow able to affect the
matter and engry of our universe and bring it into existence is not an
answer .. its is just raises even more questions. it is not really
necessary for us to have to invent a being to provide an answer .. that
would then negate our need to find the true answer. Relgious beliefs have
long been the bane of the pursuit of truth and knowledge.
Thank you for your patience with me.
You're welcome.
Mr. Jeckyl,
Perhaps someone else can enlighten us on "the truth" of how this
creation/big bang occurred. I thought from your original statement you had
a reference. Until you do, I'll remain impressed that the Bible, written
thousands of years ago, matches what science current knows about the
creation of our universe.
Sincerely,
RJBJR
That begs the q. when relating to those less educated than our
goodselves (bronze age shepherds etc.) why was it not just reported it
in terms they understood? Why not just say a long time ago, why say
six days? If it was metaphorical, why the need for metaphors? It is
just another twisting and contorting of the bible's "truth" to make it
fit facts.
Jesus was rich - you lose the bible says he was poor.
Jesus was poor - you lose the bible says he was rich.
Metaphorically speaking of course.
.
|
|
|
| User: "rjbjr" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
20 Mar 2007 06:01:35 AM |
|
|
"justiz" <izstanbul@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174314203.106598.42630@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 19, 4:28 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
[snip]
That's when time and the space as we know it started to
exist.
Yes
So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree.
No . the bible says it was only a few thousand years ago.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I don't agree. The Bible also says the universe was created about 15
billion years ago. The "days" of Genesis must be from the perspective
of an
observer present at the moment matter was formed. If you interpret
Genesis
from that perspective, the 6 days of creation matches the billions of
years
we observe from our perspective after the earth was formed and man
examines
the physical record.
But if you are saying that there was a 'beginning', then yes.
"what caused this big bang to happen?"
I do not know. Perhaps there are some genuine scientific 'answers'
proposed, I'm simply not familiar with them.
I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you had
some reference I could go to
Such a reference may exist .. I just don't know of it .. sorry.
that explains how this big bang, the start of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
I simply do not know .. I'm not sure a scientific explanation of that
exists.
However, inventing a creator that exists outside of the universe and
outside
of time, that has no creator of its own and is somehow able to affect
the
matter and engry of our universe and bring it into existence is not an
answer .. its is just raises even more questions. it is not really
necessary for us to have to invent a being to provide an answer ..
that
would then negate our need to find the true answer. Relgious beliefs
have
long been the bane of the pursuit of truth and knowledge.
Thank you for your patience with me.
You're welcome.
Mr. Jeckyl,
Perhaps someone else can enlighten us on "the truth" of how this
creation/big bang occurred. I thought from your original statement you
had
a reference. Until you do, I'll remain impressed that the Bible, written
thousands of years ago, matches what science current knows about the
creation of our universe.
Sincerely,
RJBJR
That begs the q. when relating to those less educated than our
goodselves (bronze age shepherds etc.) why was it not just reported it
in terms they understood? Why not just say a long time ago, why say
six days? If it was metaphorical, why the need for metaphors? It is
just another twisting and contorting of the bible's "truth" to make it
fit facts.
Jesus was rich - you lose the bible says he was poor.
Jesus was poor - you lose the bible says he was rich.
Metaphorically speaking of course.
Mr. Justiz,
"why say six days?". I assume the Bible said six days because that was how
long it took. Genesis divides the creation into six stages. There were no
"earth days" on day 1 since earth did not exist at that point. So the first
day has to refer to some time frame other than our own. It only makes sense
to describe the creation events using that time frame through the entire
chapter until the appearance of man.
For ancient people, the Bible warns that time is not a fixed quantity. Man
would be wise to avoid misinterpreting what a "day" is. To ancient people,
the idea that man's day equals 1000 years is the answer to your question.
So, for the ancient, the Bible does say that Genenis 1 occurred "a long time
ago". I understand Biblical scholars understood this metaphor hundreds,
perhaps thousands of years ago. So, the story of Genesis is appropriate for
an ancient.
But, the remarkable thing is that the Genesis story is also correct for us,
thousands of years later when we now have confirmed this relativity of time
and the big bang. Had the story been written as you suggest, such knowledge
in the Bible would not have been evident.
I assume that's why it is written as it was written.
Sincerely,
RJBJR
.
|
|
|
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|
| User: "Jack Baun" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
19 Mar 2007 03:47:19 PM |
|
|
Hi Christians and all, The big bang is close ssssssssssssssssssssss poof
You know how God does things without getting His hands dirty ? He uses
His Mouth.
and He don't have to brush His teeth either. He just said. "Jupiter be"
and it was.. Can't
you imagine all the planning that went into that before He spoke those
words though ? He
may have taken millions of years to plan a Dinosaur . I know it took only 6
days to do it but
He must have been planning it forever.. I don't see how man could ever have
dominion over
the dinosaur so what I was thinking was,God may have just put the bones
there to catch the
professors off guard...wouldn't that be a trip ?For a long while men
listened to God so they
didn't need wepons to fight with. But when the ground became hard he needed
something to
work it with like a plow.Eventually He needed a man to be sacrificed for all
the sinners of the
world so He said the word and the word became flesh and He called Him
Emmanuel. As God He
couldn't die but as a man now, (His Son) could finish the plan of
redemption..Of manlind.
When He spoke His word was with Him and it was God . There never was another
and never will
be another Only one God and His Son Jesus Christ.
"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vrgimk90lsbec@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:DtWdnTXVO_-49mDYnZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it, as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word 'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you are
saying.
That's good
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15 billion
of
our years ago.
That's the generally accepted theory
That's when time and the space as we know it started to
exist.
Yes
So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree.
No . the bible says it was only a few thousand years ago.
But if you are saying that there was a 'beginning', then yes.
"what caused this big bang to happen?"
I do not know. Perhaps there are some genuine scientific 'answers'
proposed, I'm simply not familiar with them.
I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you had
some reference I could go to
Such a reference may exist .. I just don't know of it .. sorry.
that explains how this big bang, the start of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of intelligence
being behind that event.
I simply do not know .. I'm not sure a scientific explanation of that
exists.
However, inventing a creator that exists outside of the universe and
outside of time, that has no creator of its own and is somehow able to
affect the matter and engry of our universe and bring it into existence is
not an answer .. its is just raises even more questions. it is not really
necessary for us to have to invent a being to provide an answer .. that
would then negate our need to find the true answer. Relgious beliefs have
long been the bane of the pursuit of truth and knowledge.
Thank you for your patience with me.
You're welcome.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Father Haskell" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
19 Mar 2007 11:07:45 AM |
|
|
On Mar 18, 1:38 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it, as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word 'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you are
saying.
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15 billion of
our years ago. That's when time and the space as we know it started to
exist. So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree. I'm
assuming you agree also. My question is "what caused this big bang to
happen?" I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you had
some reference I could go to that explains how this big bang, the start of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of intelligence
being behind that event.
There is no big bang in the bible.
.
|
|
|
| User: "rjbjr" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
20 Mar 2007 06:23:52 AM |
|
|
"Father Haskell" <fatherhaskell@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174320464.938932.270250@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 1:38 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what
theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it,
as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word 'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the
beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you are
saying.
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15
billion of
our years ago. That's when time and the space as we know it started to
exist. So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree.
I'm
assuming you agree also. My question is "what caused this big bang to
happen?" I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you had
some reference I could go to that explains how this big bang, the start
of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
There is no big bang in the bible.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
Please reread Genesis 1:1. Sounds exactly like the big bang to me.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Father Haskell" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
20 Mar 2007 12:09:57 PM |
|
|
On Mar 20, 7:23 am, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174320464.938932.270250@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 1:38 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what
theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating it,
as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word 'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the
beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you are
saying.
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15
billion of
our years ago. That's when time and the space as we know it started to
exist. So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree.
I'm
assuming you agree also. My question is "what caused this big bang to
happen?" I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you had
some reference I could go to that explains how this big bang, the start
of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
There is no big bang in the bible.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
Please reread Genesis 1:1. Sounds exactly like the big bang to me.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth.
Looks like he skipped a few steps.
.
|
|
|
| User: "rjbjr" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
21 Mar 2007 09:09:14 AM |
|
|
"Father Haskell" <fatherhaskell@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174410597.375364.197300@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 20, 7:23 am, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174320464.938932.270250@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 1:38 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been
created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile
for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what
theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating
it,
as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting
can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the
universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word
'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a
fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the
beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you
are
saying.
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15
billion of
our years ago. That's when time and the space as we know it started
to
exist. So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible
agree.
I'm
assuming you agree also. My question is "what caused this big bang
to
happen?" I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you
had
some reference I could go to that explains how this big bang, the
start
of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
There is no big bang in the bible.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
Please reread Genesis 1:1. Sounds exactly like the big bang to me.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth.
Looks like he skipped a few steps.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
We're talking about the big bang. What is skipped here? Both the big bang
and Genesis tell us there was a beginning to time. Space was also created
as was the matter that later formed the earth. Please remember, science
denied these 10 simple words for thousands of years before science confirmed
most of this part of the creation in the mid 20th century. The only
question remaining is whether this big bang was done by God or by some other
means.
Other posters have claimed there was some cause other than God for the big
bang. So far, I haven't seen any references, just a "belief" that science
will someday come up with an explanation to eliminate the need for God's
involvement.
Sincerely,
RJBJR
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
21 Mar 2007 11:25:31 AM |
|
|
"rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote in message
snip
Dear Mr. Haskell,
We're talking about the big bang. What is skipped here? Both the big
bang
and Genesis tell us there was a beginning to time.
Genesis is a fairy tale.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "thomas p." |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
26 Mar 2007 01:33:49 AM |
|
|
On 21 Mar., 16:09, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174410597.375364.197300@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 20, 7:23 am, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174320464.938932.270250@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 1:38 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been
created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile
for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what
theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating
it,
as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting
can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the
universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word
'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a
fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the
beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you
are
saying.
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15
billion of
our years ago. That's when time and the space as we know it started
to
exist. So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible
agree.
I'm
assuming you agree also. My question is "what caused this big bang
to
happen?" I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you
had
some reference I could go to that explains how this big bang, the
start
of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
There is no big bang in the bible.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
Please reread Genesis 1:1. Sounds exactly like the big bang to me.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth.
Looks like he skipped a few steps.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
We're talking about the big bang. What is skipped here? Both the big bang
and Genesis tell us there was a beginning to time. Space was also created
as was the matter that later formed the earth. Please remember, science
denied these 10 simple words for thousands of years before science confirmed
most of this part of the creation in the mid 20th century. The only
question remaining is whether this big bang was done by God or by some other
means.
First you would have to demonstrate some god existed.
Other posters have claimed there was some cause other than God for the big
bang. So far, I haven't seen any references, just a "belief" that science
will someday come up with an explanation to eliminate the need for God's
involvement.
There is no need to eliminate the involvement of leprechauns, and, for
exactly the same reason, there is no need to eliminate the involvement
of your particular fantasy.
.
|
|
|
| User: "stumper" |
|
| Title: paradigm shift required |
26 Mar 2007 10:24:44 AM |
|
|
thomas p. wrote:
On 21 Mar., 16:09, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174410597.375364.197300@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 20, 7:23 am, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174320464.938932.270250@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 1:38 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been
created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile
for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what
theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating
it,
as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting
can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the
universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word
'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a
fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the
beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you
are
saying.
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15
billion of
our years ago. That's when time and the space as we know it started
to
exist. So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible
agree.
I'm
assuming you agree also. My question is "what caused this big bang
to
happen?" I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you
had
some reference I could go to that explains how this big bang, the
start
of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
There is no big bang in the bible.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
Please reread Genesis 1:1. Sounds exactly like the big bang to me.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth.
Looks like he skipped a few steps.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
We're talking about the big bang. What is skipped here? Both the big bang
and Genesis tell us there was a beginning to time. Space was also created
as was the matter that later formed the earth. Please remember, science
denied these 10 simple words for thousands of years before science confirmed
most of this part of the creation in the mid 20th century. The only
question remaining is whether this big bang was done by God or by some other
means.
First you would have to demonstrate some god existed.
Other posters have claimed there was some cause other than God for the big
bang. So far, I haven't seen any references, just a "belief" that science
will someday come up with an explanation to eliminate the need for God's
involvement.
There is no need to eliminate the involvement of leprechauns, and, for
exactly the same reason, there is no need to eliminate the involvement
of your particular fantasy.
You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand.
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
My working hypothesis for this week is this:
God is our world government in exile.
If you wanna know whether it even exists,
you can use the same scientific method
you would use to establish that your government exists.
--
~Stumper
.
|
|
|
| User: "Unsaved White Trash" |
|
| Title: Re: paradigm shift required |
26 Mar 2007 12:34:04 PM |
|
|
"stumper" <stumper@newvessel.com> wrote in message
news:FvydnUrJfcoweJrbnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@ptd.net...
thomas p. wrote:
On 21 Mar., 16:09, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174410597.375364.197300@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 20, 7:23 am, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174320464.938932.270250@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 1:38 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been
created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile
for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what
theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating
it,
as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting
can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the
universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word
'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a
fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the
beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you
are
saying.
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15
billion of
our years ago. That's when time and the space as we know it started
to
exist. So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible
agree.
I'm
assuming you agree also. My question is "what caused this big bang
to
happen?" I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you
had
some reference I could go to that explains how this big bang, the
start
of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
There is no big bang in the bible.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
Please reread Genesis 1:1. Sounds exactly like the big bang to me.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth.
Looks like he skipped a few steps.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
We're talking about the big bang. What is skipped here? Both the big
bang
and Genesis tell us there was a beginning to time. Space was also
created
as was the matter that later formed the earth. Please remember, science
denied these 10 simple words for thousands of years before science
confirmed
most of this part of the creation in the mid 20th century. The only
question remaining is whether this big bang was done by God or by some
other
means.
First you would have to demonstrate some god existed.
Other posters have claimed there was some cause other than God for the
big
bang. So far, I haven't seen any references, just a "belief" that
science
will someday come up with an explanation to eliminate the need for God's
involvement.
There is no need to eliminate the involvement of leprechauns, and, for
exactly the same reason, there is no need to eliminate the involvement
of your particular fantasy.
You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand.
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
My working hypothesis for this week is this:
God is our world government in exile.
If you wanna know whether it even exists,
you can use the same scientific method
you would use to establish that your government exists.
--
~Stumper
Copy and paste from previous post noted.
I'm an American, but it's not MY government and I have no reason to prove
that to anyone if they're too ill informed to know that most Americans lives
are in extreme danger because of what this administration and it's cronies
have done to our stability and safety world wide.
The last thing on anyone's mind with a rational cell in it is whether or not
there's a god, it's just too obvious that there is not and never was.
Try asking questions of a more relevant and realistic nature.
.
|
|
|
| User: "stumper" |
|
| Title: Re: paradigm shift required |
26 Mar 2007 02:15:36 PM |
|
|
Unsaved White Trash wrote:
"stumper" <stumper@newvessel.com> wrote:
You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand.
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
My working hypothesis for this week is this:
God is our world government in exile.
If you wanna know whether it even exists,
you can use the same scientific method
you would use to establish that your government exists.
--
~Stumper
Copy and paste from previous post noted.
I'm an American, but it's not MY government and I have no reason to prove
that to anyone if they're too ill informed to know that most Americans lives
are in extreme danger because of what this administration and it's cronies
have done to our stability and safety world wide.
The last thing on anyone's mind with a rational cell in it is whether or not
there's a god, it's just too obvious that there is not and never was.
Try asking questions of a more relevant and realistic nature.
So you hate your government
and want to ignore God.
Can you afford to do so?
God is not dead.
God as the would government in exile is
working hard to take over the world.
Can you afford to ignore it?
--
~Stumper
.
|
|
|
| User: "Father Haskell" |
|
| Title: Re: paradigm shift required |
26 Mar 2007 04:46:52 PM |
|
|
On Mar 26, 3:15 pm, stumper <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
Unsaved White Trash wrote:
"stumper" <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand.
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
My working hypothesis for this week is this:
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
