| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" |
| Date: |
21 Jan 2007 07:13:20 AM |
| Object: |
Proof of LORD Almighty GOD: HIS creation of the universe. |
brother Melchizedek wrote:
"Father Haskell" wrote:
WhewAustralopithicus wrote:
"Father Haskell" wrote:
brother Melchizedek wrote:
"St. Jackanapes" wrote:
<snip>
Whack-A-Fundy
Squash a Liver!
50 Yard Bible Toss!
Oh goodie, a picnic. I'll bring the potato salad.
Melchy says he'll bring the goat.
FA talking to him/her self, huh ... :-)
Divine Design
"Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring
you closer to God."
-James Tour, Nanoscientist
The astronomical evidence for God must be strong when atheistic physicists admit that "the universe exploded out of nothingness,"
and agnostic astronomers claim that "supernatural forces" were so at work in the beginning that scientists are led back to "a band
of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries" (see chapter 3). But the scientific evidence for God does not end with the
Cosmological Argument. For many, the precision with which the universe exploded into being provides even more persuasive evidence
for the existence of God.
This evidence, technically known as the Teleological Argument, derives its name from the Greek word telos, which means "design." The
Teleological Argument goes like this:
1. Every design had a designer.
2. The universe has highly complex design.
3. Therefore, the universe had a Designer.
Isaac Newton (1642-1727) implicitly confirmed the validity of the Teleological Argument when he marveled at the design of our solar
system. He wrote, "This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an
intelligent and powerful Being."?1? Yet it was William Paley (1743-1805) who made the argument famous by his commonsense assertion
that every watch requires a watchmaker. Imagine you're walking along in the woods and you find a diamond-studded Rolex on the
ground. What do you conclude is the cause of that watch: The wind and the rain? Erosion? Some combination of natural forces? Of
course not! There's absolutely no question in your mind that some intelligent being made that watch, and that some unfortunate
individual must have accidentally dropped it there.
Scientists are now finding that the universe in which we live is like that diamond-studded Rolex, except the universe is even more
precisely designed than the watch. In fact, the universe is specifically tweaked to enable life on earth-a planet with scores of
improbable and interdependent life-supporting conditions that make it a tiny oasis in a vast and hostile universe.
These highly precise and interdependent environmental conditions (which are called "anthropic constants") make up what is known as
the "Anthropic Principle." "Anthropic" comes from a Greek word that means "human" or "man." The Anthropic Principle is just a fancy
title for the mounting evidence that has many scientists believing that the universe is extremely fine-tuned (designed) to support
human life here on earth.
In this vast and hostile universe, we earthlings are much like astronauts who can survive only in the small confines of their
spaceship. Like a spaceship, our earth supports life as it hurls through lifeless space. But also like a spaceship, a slight change
or malfunction in any one of a number of factors-in either the universe or the earth itself-could fatally alter the narrowly defined
environmental conditions we need to survive.
Apollo 13, one of the most challenging and famed missions in the history of NASA, will help drive this point home. We're going spend
the next few pages aboard Apollo 13. And as we do, we'll point out some of the anthropic constants that make our lives possible.
1 Isaac Newton, "General Scholium," in Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy (1687) in Great Books of the Western World,
Robert M. Hutchins, ed. (Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica, n.d.), 369.
Geisler, N. L., & Turek, F. (2004). I don't have enough faith to be an atheist (95). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for HIS compelling
you to post this.
Laus Deo ! ! !
Let us continue to prayer for our dear friends and neighbors who have
been convicted by the Holy Spirit:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts
For they are in danger of unwisely choosing to blaspheme the Holy
Spirit thereby becoming demons:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/6f0944c007976167?
May GOD continue to heal our hearts with HIS living water so that we
can love our neighbors a little more and LORD Jesus Christ a whole lot
more, dear brother Melchizedek whom I love unconditionally.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love
.
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| User: "stumper" |
|
| Title: Re: paradigm shift required |
26 Mar 2007 10:13:49 PM |
|
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Unsaved White Trash wrote:
"stumper" <stumper@newvessel.com> wrote in message
news:89-dneJZVIJu6ZXbnZ2dnUVZ_tOmnZ2d@ptd.net...
Unsaved White Trash wrote:
"stumper" <stumper@newvessel.com> wrote in message
news:tPCdne1D1rSb2ZXbnZ2dnUVZ_uLinZ2d@ptd.net...
Father Haskell wrote:
On Mar 26, 3:15 pm, stumper <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
Unsaved White Trash wrote:
"stumper" <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand.
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
My working hypothesis for this week is this:
God is our world government in exile.
If you wanna know whether it even exists,
you can use the same scientific method
you would use to establish that your government exists.
--
~Stumper
Copy and paste from previous post noted.
I'm an American, but it's not MY government and I have no reason to
prove
that to anyone if they're too ill informed to know that most
Americans lives
are in extreme danger because of what this administration and it's
cronies
have done to our stability and safety world wide.
The last thing on anyone's mind with a rational cell in it is whether
or not
there's a god, it's just too obvious that there is not and never was.
Try asking questions of a more relevant and realistic nature.
So you hate your government
and want to ignore God.
Can you afford to do so?
God is not dead.
God as the would government in exile is
working hard to take over the world.
Can you afford to ignore it?
Are you sleeping well? Do you need a better mattress
or something? Maybe a script for Ambien?
Don't worry too much about Fundamentalists.
And don't you worry too much about your brain cancer
Are you fond of cursing people?
Do you believe in Satan or something?
You are not a baby anymore.
Stop the baby talk.
God is the Christian world government in exile.
God is still probably more powerful than your government.
You cannot afford to ignore God.
And you better stop listening to Satan.
ooooooooooooooooooooo dat's willy scawwy
Do you believe in Satan?
What would be the working sociological hypothesis of Satan?
--
~Stumper
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| User: "St. Jackanapes" |
|
| Title: Re: paradigm shift required |
30 Mar 2007 07:19:00 PM |
|
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In alt.flame.jesus.christ, stumper said...
Unsaved White Trash wrote:
"stumper" <stumper@newvessel.com> wrote in message
news:tPCdne1D1rSb2ZXbnZ2dnUVZ_uLinZ2d@ptd.net...
Father Haskell wrote:
On Mar 26, 3:15 pm, stumper <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
Unsaved White Trash wrote:
"stumper" <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand.
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
My working hypothesis for this week is this:
God is our world government in exile.
If you wanna know whether it even exists,
you can use the same scientific method
you would use to establish that your government exists.
--
~Stumper
Copy and paste from previous post noted.
I'm an American, but it's not MY government and I have no reason to
prove
that to anyone if they're too ill informed to know that most Americans
lives
are in extreme danger because of what this administration and it's
cronies
have done to our stability and safety world wide.
The last thing on anyone's mind with a rational cell in it is whether
or not
there's a god, it's just too obvious that there is not and never was.
Try asking questions of a more relevant and realistic nature.
So you hate your government
and want to ignore God.
Can you afford to do so?
God is not dead.
God as the would government in exile is
working hard to take over the world.
Can you afford to ignore it?
Are you sleeping well? Do you need a better mattress
or something? Maybe a script for Ambien?
Don't worry too much about Fundamentalists.
And don't you worry too much about your brain cancer
Are you fond of cursing people?
She's posting from a flame group, Peabody. Wake the ***** up.
--
St. Jackanapes of Usenet ~ Bearer of The One True Liver ~
Ordained Minister & Holy Saint of The Universal Life Church
John "Melchizedek & Free Gift" Loiodice: SPNAKED! Wed, 28 Mar 2007
-----------------------------------------------------------------
WEBSITE:http://www.jackanapes.ws FORUM:http://www.voy.com/20630/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
.
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| User: "Father Haskell" |
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| Title: Re: paradigm shift required |
30 Mar 2007 09:06:43 PM |
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On Mar 26, 9:36 pm, stumper <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
Unsaved White Trash wrote:
"stumper" <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote in message
news:tPCdne1D1rSb2ZXbnZ2dnUVZ_uLinZ2d@ptd.net...
Father Haskell wrote:
On Mar 26, 3:15 pm, stumper <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
Unsaved White Trash wrote:
"stumper" <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand.
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
My working hypothesis for this week is this:
God is our world government in exile.
If you wanna know whether it even exists,
you can use the same scientific method
you would use to establish that your government exists.
--
~Stumper
Copy and paste from previous post noted.
I'm an American, but it's not MY government and I have no reason to
prove
that to anyone if they're too ill informed to know that most Americans
lives
are in extreme danger because of what this administration and it's
cronies
have done to our stability and safety world wide.
The last thing on anyone's mind with a rational cell in it is whether
or not
there's a god, it's just too obvious that there is not and never was.
Try asking questions of a more relevant and realistic nature.
So you hate your government
and want to ignore God.
Can you afford to do so?
God is not dead.
God as the would government in exile is
working hard to take over the world.
Can you afford to ignore it?
Are you sleeping well? Do you need a better mattress
or something? Maybe a script for Ambien?
Don't worry too much about Fundamentalists.
And don't you worry too much about your brain cancer
Are you fond of cursing people?
Are you fond of being abused?
.
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| User: "Father Haskell" |
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| Title: Re: paradigm shift required |
26 Mar 2007 05:23:22 PM |
|
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On Mar 26, 6:07 pm, stumper <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
Father Haskell wrote:
On Mar 26, 3:15 pm, stumper <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
Unsaved White Trash wrote:
"stumper" <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand.
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
My working hypothesis for this week is this:
God is our world government in exile.
If you wanna know whether it even exists,
you can use the same scientific method
you would use to establish that your government exists.
--
~Stumper
Copy and paste from previous post noted.
I'm an American, but it's not MY government and I have no reason to prove
that to anyone if they're too ill informed to know that most Americans lives
are in extreme danger because of what this administration and it's cronies
have done to our stability and safety world wide.
The last thing on anyone's mind with a rational cell in it is whether or not
there's a god, it's just too obvious that there is not and never was.
Try asking questions of a more relevant and realistic nature.
So you hate your government
and want to ignore God.
Can you afford to do so?
God is not dead.
God as the would government in exile is
working hard to take over the world.
Can you afford to ignore it?
Are you sleeping well? Do you need a better mattress
or something? Maybe a script for Ambien?
Don't worry too much about Fundamentalists.
God's gonna kill them all with a shower of flaming hailstones?
Oh, goodie!
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: paradigm shift required |
27 Mar 2007 11:43:24 AM |
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"Father Haskell" <fatherhaskell@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174947802.833205.56070@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 26, 6:07 pm, stumper <stum...@newvessel.com> wrote:
snip
Don't worry too much about Fundamentalists.
God's gonna kill them all with a shower of flaming hailstones?
Oh, goodie!
I'll bring the popcorn! :)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.
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| User: "Father Haskell" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
21 Mar 2007 11:33:37 AM |
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On Mar 21, 10:09 am, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174410597.375364.197300@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 20, 7:23 am, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
Dear Mr. Haskell,
Please reread Genesis 1:1. Sounds exactly like the big bang to me.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth.
Looks like he skipped a few steps.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
We're talking about the big bang. What is skipped here?
Carbon? Iron? Silicon? Oxygen?
Our sun and planets were made from heavy elements fused in
the cores of earlier stars. The only material created by the big
bang was hydrogen.
.
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| User: "Velvet Elvis" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
21 Mar 2007 12:09:26 PM |
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On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:14 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote:
Other posters have claimed there was some cause other than God for the big
bang. So far, I haven't seen any references, just a "belief" that science
will someday come up with an explanation to eliminate the need for God's
involvement.
And you consistently stick your head in the sand when asked to explain who
created your god.
.
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| User: "rjbjr" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
22 Mar 2007 09:09:00 AM |
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"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetElvis@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:0jp203h69p0jf23f3utk08qnihrcpobn6d@4ax.com...
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:14 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote:
Other posters have claimed there was some cause other than God for the
big
bang. So far, I haven't seen any references, just a "belief" that
science
will someday come up with an explanation to eliminate the need for God's
involvement.
And you consistently stick your head in the sand when asked to explain who
created your god.
Dear VE,
I've ignored your question because I can't answer it.
There is nothing in the Bible I am aware of that gives a clue as to who
created God.
I can't even give a hypothesis.
There is much I can't comprehend. I can't even picture a four-dimensional
figure, much less one of 11 or more dimensions. I can't comprehend
something without time, ie., "before" the big bang.
I do wonder about it, but recognize I am intellectually confined.
I can picture universes being created. I can do it. You can do it.
Computer scientists are doing it every day. We can build universes in a
computer. We can create space and time and a system that evolves a form of
intelligence in virtual spaces inside our computers. We have just started
creating these kinds of universes. But we've only been at it for a few
years. I try to imagine a computer system sophisticated enough that the
virtual creatures start to ask the same kinds of questions about how their
"universe" began as we are discussing here about our "real" universe.
Is it possible that these virtual creatures could ever figure out who
created them? Could they, from their perspective, ever envision the/our
physical world with silicon chips and electronics? Could they ever figure
out how their programmer was created? I doubt that would be possible for
them to do before their "creator" deletes their program or their operating
system crashes.
I realize this is a very crude analogy to our situation. But, again, my
mind is extremely limited. But, the analogy in some sense makes me realize
that there very well could be a superior intelligence capable of creating
space and matter - our universe.
Food for thought?
Sincerely,
RJBJR
.
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| User: "thomas p." |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
26 Mar 2007 01:42:37 AM |
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On 22 Mar., 16:09, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetEl...@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:0jp203h69p0jf23f3utk08qnihrcpobn6d@4ax.com...
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:14 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
snip
I realize this is a very crude analogy to our situation. But, again, my
mind is extremely limited. But, the analogy in some sense makes me realize
that there very well could be a superior intelligence capable of creating
space and matter - our universe.
Food for thought?
As soon as you find evidence let us know.
.
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| User: "stumper" |
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| Title: You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand |
26 Mar 2007 10:25:32 AM |
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thomas p. wrote:
On 22 Mar., 16:09, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetEl...@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:0jp203h69p0jf23f3utk08qnihrcpobn6d@4ax.com...
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:14 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
snip
I realize this is a very crude analogy to our situation. But, again, my
mind is extremely limited. But, the analogy in some sense makes me realize
that there very well could be a superior intelligence capable of creating
space and matter - our universe.
Food for thought?
As soon as you find evidence let us know.
You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand.
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
My working hypothesis for this week is this:
God is our world government in exile.
If you wanna know whether it even exists,
you can use the same scientific method
you would use to establish that your government exists.
--
~Stumper
.
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| User: "Pastor Fwap" |
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| Title: Re: You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand |
27 Mar 2007 12:58:10 PM |
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On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:25:32 -0400, stumper
<stumper@newvessel.com> wrote:
thomas p. wrote:
On 22 Mar., 16:09, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetEl...@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:0jp203h69p0jf23f3utk08qnihrcpobn6d@4ax.com...
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:14 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
snip
I realize this is a very crude analogy to our situation. But, again, my
mind is extremely limited. But, the analogy in some sense makes me realize
that there very well could be a superior intelligence capable of creating
space and matter - our universe.
Food for thought?
As soon as you find evidence let us know.
You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand.
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAhAHAaHAHAHAhAHAHAAHaahahaaaa.Heh.
Do another one.
....
.
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| User: "Marcus" |
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| Title: Re: You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand |
27 Mar 2007 08:05:35 PM |
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"Pastor Fwap" <bergjylt@gmail.com> wrote in message news:momi03hlhc9fu0mr56ar97q2kbh0rv1d9k@4ax.com...
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:25:32 -0400, stumper
<stumper@newvessel.com> wrote:
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAhAHAaHAHAHAhAHAHAAHaahahaaaa.Heh.
Do another one.
Is that supposed to be the sound of a goat getting butt f**ked?, or U gitting .... ......?
-----------------
www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed*
Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road
-----------------
.
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| User: "Pastor Fwap" |
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| Title: Re: You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand |
29 Mar 2007 03:15:00 AM |
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On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:05:35 -0500, "Marcus" <lj@ckanap.com>
wrote:
"Pastor Fwap" <bergjylt@gmail.com> wrote in message news:momi03hlhc9fu0mr56ar97q2kbh0rv1d9k@4ax.com...
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:25:32 -0400, stumper
<stumper@newvessel.com> wrote:
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAhAHAaHAHAHAhAHAHAAHaahahaaaa.Heh.
Do another one.
Is that supposed to be the sound of a goat getting butt f**ked?, or U gitting .... ......?
Why, yes. I'm surprised you recognized it. So, what satanic
coven do you go to, then?
....
.
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| User: "St. Jackanapes" |
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| Title: Re: You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand |
30 Mar 2007 12:50:30 AM |
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In alt.flame.jesus.christ, Pastor Fwap said...
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:05:35 -0500, "Marcus" <lj@ckanap.com>
wrote:
"Pastor Fwap" <bergjylt@gmail.com> wrote in message news:momi03hlhc9fu0mr56ar97q2kbh0rv1d9k@4ax.com...
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:25:32 -0400, stumper
<stumper@newvessel.com> wrote:
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAhAHAaHAHAHAhAHAHAAHaahahaaaa.Heh.
Do another one.
Is that supposed to be the sound of a goat getting butt f**ked?, or U gitting .... ......?
Why, yes. I'm surprised you recognized it. So, what satanic
coven do you go to, then?
Wow, it's true! You really can lure a Satanist out from undercover with
that noise. Cool!
--
St. Jackanapes of Usenet ~ Bearer of The One True Liver ~
Ordained Minister & Holy Saint of The Universal Life Church
John "Melchizedek & Free Gift" Loiodice: SPNAKED! Wed, 28 Mar 2007
-----------------------------------------------------------------
WEBSITE:http://www.jackanapes.ws FORUM:http://www.voy.com/20630/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm one tough gazookas that hates all palookas
~ that ain't on the up and square.
I biffs 'em and buffs 'em and always out-roughs 'em
~ and none of 'em gets nowhere.
So keep good behavior, it's your one lifesaver,
~ with Popeye the Sailor Man." - Popeye - God of the 7 Seas
.
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| User: "stumper" |
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| Title: Re: You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand |
27 Mar 2007 02:09:27 PM |
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Pastor Fwap wrote:
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:25:32 -0400, stumper
<stumper@newvessel.com> wrote:
thomas p. wrote:
On 22 Mar., 16:09, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetEl...@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:0jp203h69p0jf23f3utk08qnihrcpobn6d@4ax.com...
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:14 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
snip
I realize this is a very crude analogy to our situation. But, again, my
mind is extremely limited. But, the analogy in some sense makes me realize
that there very well could be a superior intelligence capable of creating
space and matter - our universe.
Food for thought?
As soon as you find evidence let us know.
You need to do a paradigm shift first to understand.
God is better handled by social science
than by natural science.
BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAhAHAaHAHAHAhAHAHAAHaahahaaaa.Heh.
Do another one.
....
Do you preach intolerance, pastor?
--
~Stumper
.
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| User: "Velvet Elvis" |
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| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
22 Mar 2007 09:43:27 AM |
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On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:09:00 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote:
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetElvis@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:0jp203h69p0jf23f3utk08qnihrcpobn6d@4ax.com...
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:14 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote:
Other posters have claimed there was some cause other than God for the
big
bang. So far, I haven't seen any references, just a "belief" that
science
will someday come up with an explanation to eliminate the need for God's
involvement.
And you consistently stick your head in the sand when asked to explain who
created your god.
Dear VE,
I've ignored your question because I can't answer it.
There is nothing in the Bible I am aware of that gives a clue as to who
created God.
I can't even give a hypothesis.
There is much I can't comprehend. I can't even picture a four-dimensional
figure, much less one of 11 or more dimensions. I can't comprehend
something without time, ie., "before" the big bang.
I do wonder about it, but recognize I am intellectually confined.
I can picture universes being created. I can do it. You can do it.
Computer scientists are doing it every day. We can build universes in a
computer. We can create space and time and a system that evolves a form of
intelligence in virtual spaces inside our computers. We have just started
creating these kinds of universes. But we've only been at it for a few
years. I try to imagine a computer system sophisticated enough that the
virtual creatures start to ask the same kinds of questions about how their
"universe" began as we are discussing here about our "real" universe.
Is it possible that these virtual creatures could ever figure out who
created them? Could they, from their perspective, ever envision the/our
physical world with silicon chips and electronics? Could they ever figure
out how their programmer was created? I doubt that would be possible for
them to do before their "creator" deletes their program or their operating
system crashes.
I realize this is a very crude analogy to our situation. But, again, my
mind is extremely limited. But, the analogy in some sense makes me realize
that there very well could be a superior intelligence capable of creating
space and matter - our universe.
Food for thought?
You seem to make light of the fact that science has _YET_ to have all the
answers on how the universe came to be, and seem comfortable in your bronze
age tome for matters of scientific fact.
Essentially, you're claiming acceptance of the "goddidit" theory, but
don't seem fazed by the fact that this god has always been, and had no creator
itself.
FWIW, referring to the bible for scientific content is folly, as the bible's
"science" has been systematically taken to task by science for hundreds of
years, beginning with the debunking of geocentricity, and the generally
accepted Theory of Evolution.
--
-----------------------------------------------------
At one point in time, many of us actually had Jesus as
our personal lord and saviour.
Unfortunately, we later had to dismiss him for
incompetence, gross negligence, misconduct and
consistent failure to show up for work.
.
|
|
|
| User: "rjbjr" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
23 Mar 2007 08:32:28 AM |
|
|
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetElvis@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:s24503du0u0d5kocp9ncpk23a4bu763lmn@4ax.com...
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:09:00 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote:
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetElvis@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:0jp203h69p0jf23f3utk08qnihrcpobn6d@4ax.com...
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:14 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net>
wrote:
Other posters have claimed there was some cause other than God for the
big
bang. So far, I haven't seen any references, just a "belief" that
science
will someday come up with an explanation to eliminate the need for
God's
involvement.
And you consistently stick your head in the sand when asked to explain
who
created your god.
Dear VE,
I've ignored your question because I can't answer it.
There is nothing in the Bible I am aware of that gives a clue as to who
created God.
I can't even give a hypothesis.
There is much I can't comprehend. I can't even picture a
four-dimensional
figure, much less one of 11 or more dimensions. I can't comprehend
something without time, ie., "before" the big bang.
I do wonder about it, but recognize I am intellectually confined.
I can picture universes being created. I can do it. You can do it.
Computer scientists are doing it every day. We can build universes in a
computer. We can create space and time and a system that evolves a form
of
intelligence in virtual spaces inside our computers. We have just
started
creating these kinds of universes. But we've only been at it for a few
years. I try to imagine a computer system sophisticated enough that the
virtual creatures start to ask the same kinds of questions about how
their
"universe" began as we are discussing here about our "real" universe.
Is it possible that these virtual creatures could ever figure out who
created them? Could they, from their perspective, ever envision the/our
physical world with silicon chips and electronics? Could they ever
figure
out how their programmer was created? I doubt that would be possible for
them to do before their "creator" deletes their program or their
operating
system crashes.
I realize this is a very crude analogy to our situation. But, again, my
mind is extremely limited. But, the analogy in some sense makes me
realize
that there very well could be a superior intelligence capable of creating
space and matter - our universe.
Food for thought?
You seem to make light of the fact that science has _YET_ to have all the
answers on how the universe came to be, and seem comfortable in your
bronze
age tome for matters of scientific fact.
Essentially, you're claiming acceptance of the "goddidit" theory, but
don't seem fazed by the fact that this god has always been, and had no
creator
itself.
FWIW, referring to the bible for scientific content is folly, as the
bible's
"science" has been systematically taken to task by science for hundreds of
years, beginning with the debunking of geocentricity, and the generally
accepted Theory of Evolution.
Mr. Velvet,
You seem stuck on visualizing the creation of a God who existed before time
as we know it.
As I explained above, I'm not quite that smart - or arrogant.
As for your comment about the Bible being taken to task by science on issues
after the creation of time and space, are you really sure about that?
Could you give me a reference from the Bible where it describes an
earth-centric universe?
Could you give me a reference where it says evolution doesn't occur?
I guess I missed those verses.
Thanks for your help.
RJBJR
.
|
|
|
| User: "Velvet Elvis" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
23 Mar 2007 08:14:56 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:32:28 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote:
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetElvis@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:s24503du0u0d5kocp9ncpk23a4bu763lmn@4ax.com...
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:09:00 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote:
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetElvis@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:0jp203h69p0jf23f3utk08qnihrcpobn6d@4ax.com...
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:14 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net>
wrote:
Other posters have claimed there was some cause other than God for the
big
bang. So far, I haven't seen any references, just a "belief" that
science
will someday come up with an explanation to eliminate the need for
God's
involvement.
And you consistently stick your head in the sand when asked to explain
who
created your god.
Dear VE,
I've ignored your question because I can't answer it.
There is nothing in the Bible I am aware of that gives a clue as to who
created God.
I can't even give a hypothesis.
There is much I can't comprehend. I can't even picture a
four-dimensional
figure, much less one of 11 or more dimensions. I can't comprehend
something without time, ie., "before" the big bang.
I do wonder about it, but recognize I am intellectually confined.
I can picture universes being created. I can do it. You can do it.
Computer scientists are doing it every day. We can build universes in a
computer. We can create space and time and a system that evolves a form
of
intelligence in virtual spaces inside our computers. We have just
started
creating these kinds of universes. But we've only been at it for a few
years. I try to imagine a computer system sophisticated enough that the
virtual creatures start to ask the same kinds of questions about how
their
"universe" began as we are discussing here about our "real" universe.
Is it possible that these virtual creatures could ever figure out who
created them? Could they, from their perspective, ever envision the/our
physical world with silicon chips and electronics? Could they ever
figure
out how their programmer was created? I doubt that would be possible for
them to do before their "creator" deletes their program or their
operating
system crashes.
I realize this is a very crude analogy to our situation. But, again, my
mind is extremely limited. But, the analogy in some sense makes me
realize
that there very well could be a superior intelligence capable of creating
space and matter - our universe.
Food for thought?
You seem to make light of the fact that science has _YET_ to have all the
answers on how the universe came to be, and seem comfortable in your
bronze
age tome for matters of scientific fact.
Essentially, you're claiming acceptance of the "goddidit" theory, but
don't seem fazed by the fact that this god has always been, and had no
creator
itself.
FWIW, referring to the bible for scientific content is folly, as the
bible's
"science" has been systematically taken to task by science for hundreds of
years, beginning with the debunking of geocentricity, and the generally
accepted Theory of Evolution.
Mr. Velvet,
You seem stuck on visualizing the creation of a God who existed before time
as we know it.
As I explained above, I'm not quite that smart - or arrogant.
As for your comment about the Bible being taken to task by science on issues
after the creation of time and space, are you really sure about that?
Could you give me a reference from the Bible where it describes an
earth-centric universe?
Google "bible geocentrism". There's hundreds of references. Here are just
two:
http://www.geocentricbible.com/
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/latest_2003/geocentrism.html
Could you give me a reference where it says evolution doesn't occur?
You're looking for a bible verse that claims evolution doesn't exist? Surely
you aren't that dense, are you? How about you show how the bible explicitly
claims evolution _does_ occur.
Ask any fundamentalist christian, almost all of whom are creationists. If
you believe the bible is the inerrant word of god, you will support
creationism or intelligent design.
I guess I missed those verses.
I'll bet you missed all the racist, misogynist, and murderous statements too.
Thanks for your help.
RJBJR
.
|
|
|
| User: "rjbjr" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
24 Mar 2007 08:59:49 AM |
|
|
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetElvis@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:glj703h8btqjvas3splt2qpj34fdf0l6qq@4ax.com...
On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:32:28 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote:
Could you give me a reference from the Bible where it describes an
earth-centric universe?
Google "bible geocentrism". There's hundreds of references. Here are
just
two:
http://www.geocentricbible.com/
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/latest_2003/geocentrism.html
Dear Velvet,
Checked these out. Pretty weak. I don't think the Bible saying the sun
rises and the sun sets shows the Bible supports an earth-centric universe.
Could you give me a reference where it says evolution doesn't occur?
You're looking for a bible verse that claims evolution doesn't exist?
Surely
you aren't that dense, are you? How about you show how the bible
explicitly
claims evolution _does_ occur.
Dear Velvet,
I'll do that. Read Genesis 1:11,12. "And God said, Let the earth bring
forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after
his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12And the
earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the
tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw
that it was good."
The key phrase here: "let the earth bring forth grass,..."
Also, read Genesis 1:24. "24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the
living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the
earth after his kind: and it was so."
The key phrase here: "let the earth bring forth the living creature...."
My discussion with you ends here.
I don't continue discussions with posters who have the need to use insults.
Ask any fundamentalist christian, almost all of whom are creationists.
If
you believe the bible is the inerrant word of god, you will support
creationism or intelligent design.
I guess I missed those verses.
I'll bet you missed all the racist, misogynist, and murderous statements
too.
Thanks for your help.
RJBJR
.
|
|
|
| User: "thomas p." |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
26 Mar 2007 02:05:50 AM |
|
|
On 24 Mar., 15:59, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetEl...@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:glj703h8btqjvas3splt2qpj34fdf0l6qq@4ax.com...
On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:32:28 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
Could you give me a reference from the Bible where it describes an
earth-centric universe?
Google "bible geocentrism". There's hundreds of references. Here are
just
two:
http://www.geocentricbible.com/
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/latest_2003/geocentrism.html
Dear Velvet,
Checked these out. Pretty weak. I don't think the Bible saying the sun
rises and the sun sets shows the Bible supports an earth-centric universe.
Of course you don't. It is, however, what the book says. You "know"
it can't be wrong, so you decide it means something else. In short
you start with your conclusion and interpret everything you read to
fit that conclusion.
Could you give me a reference where it says evolution doesn't occur?
You're looking for a bible verse that claims evolution doesn't exist?
Surely
you aren't that dense, are you? How about you show how the bible
explicitly
claims evolution _does_ occur.
Dear Velvet,
I'll do that. Read Genesis 1:11,12. "And God said, Let the earth bring
forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after
his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12And the
earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the
tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw
that it was good."
The key phrase here: "let the earth bring forth grass,..."
The key phrase is "6 days". Beyond the need of believers to have the
Bible be correct, there is no reason to read that as meaning anything
else but 6, 24 hour days. There is also the sequence of creation, the
Earth coming into existence before the stars for example.
snip
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Father Haskell" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
26 Mar 2007 05:30:09 PM |
|
|
On Mar 24, 9:59 am, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
The key phrase here: "let the earth bring forth the living creature...."
Except life most likely started in water.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Velvet Elvis" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
24 Mar 2007 09:13:58 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:59:49 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote:
"Velvet Elvis" <VelvetElvis@BennyHinn.com> wrote in message
news:glj703h8btqjvas3splt2qpj34fdf0l6qq@4ax.com...
On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:32:28 -0500, "rjbjr" <rjburnsjr@comcast.net> wrote:
Could you give me a reference from the Bible where it describes an
earth-centric universe?
Google "bible geocentrism". There's hundreds of references. Here are
just
two:
http://www.geocentricbible.com/
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/latest_2003/geocentrism.html
Dear Velvet,
Checked these out. Pretty weak. I don't think the Bible saying the sun
rises and the sun sets shows the Bible supports an earth-centric universe.
I expected nothing less from you.
Could you give me a reference where it says evolution doesn't occur?
You're looking for a bible verse that claims evolution doesn't exist?
Surely
you aren't that dense, are you? How about you show how the bible
explicitly
claims evolution _does_ occur.
Dear Velvet,
I'll do that. Read Genesis 1:11,12. "And God said, Let the earth bring
forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after
his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12And the
earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the
tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw
that it was good."
The key phrase here: "let the earth bring forth grass,..."
Also, read Genesis 1:24. "24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the
living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the
earth after his kind: and it was so."
The key phrase here: "let the earth bring forth the living creature...."
That's the bible's take on evolution? Are you really, really that stupid?
My discussion with you ends here.
I don't continue discussions with posters who have the need to use insults.
Not as frustrating as people who can't think for themselves.
Ask any fundamentalist christian, almost all of whom are creationists.
If
you believe the bible is the inerrant word of god, you will support
creationism or intelligent design.
I guess I missed those verses.
I'll bet you missed all the racist, misogynist, and murderous statements
too.
<cue crickets....>
--
------------------------------------
There's a sucker reborn every minute
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Unsaved White Trash" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
20 Mar 2007 02:12:37 PM |
|
|
"Father Haskell" <fatherhaskell@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174410597.375364.197300@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 20, 7:23 am, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174320464.938932.270250@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 1:38 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been
created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile
for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what
theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating
it,
as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting
can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the
universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word
'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a
fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the
beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you
are
saying.
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15
billion of
our years ago. That's when time and the space as we know it started
to
exist. So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree.
I'm
assuming you agree also. My question is "what caused this big bang
to
happen?" I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you
had
some reference I could go to that explains how this big bang, the
start
of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
There is no big bang in the bible.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
Please reread Genesis 1:1. Sounds exactly like the big bang to me.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth.
Looks like he skipped a few steps.
This way when a christer dies they are just put outside their door in a
hammock above the earth (ground).
Just think, when you go outside, the soles of your feet are on earth and the
rest of you is in heaven.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Father Haskell" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
20 Mar 2007 02:58:12 PM |
|
|
On Mar 20, 3:12 pm, "Unsaved White Trash" <whewnotsa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174410597.375364.197300@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 20, 7:23 am, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174320464.938932.270250@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 1:38 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been
created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is reposibile
for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for what
theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God creating
it,
as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a painting
can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the
universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word
'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a
fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the
beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what you
are
saying.
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15
billion of
our years ago. That's when time and the space as we know it started
to
exist. So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible agree.
I'm
assuming you agree also. My question is "what caused this big bang
to
happen?" I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought you
had
some reference I could go to that explains how this big bang, the
start
of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
There is no big bang in the bible.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
Please reread Genesis 1:1. Sounds exactly like the big bang to me.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth.
Looks like he skipped a few steps.
This way when a christer dies they are just put outside their door in a
hammock above the earth (ground).
Just think, when you go outside, the soles of your feet are on earth and the
rest of you is in heaven.
What if you're down in the cellar, mixing up ***** in your meth
kitchen?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Unsaved White Trash" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
20 Mar 2007 04:29:18 PM |
|
|
"Father Haskell" <fatherhaskell@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174420691.992922.200660@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 20, 3:12 pm, "Unsaved White Trash" <whewnotsa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174410597.375364.197300@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 20, 7:23 am, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Father Haskell" <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174320464.938932.270250@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 1:38 pm, "rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vpg663o4fujff@corp.supernews.com...
"rjbjr" <rjburn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R8WdnYI0ou57QWbYnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:12vmduhqbhvm7b9@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
If you looked at the painting and said "that must have been
created
by
the
flying purple people eater, because i believe he is
reposibile
for
all
paintings" .. then you'd have a more preceise analogy for
what
theist
claim.
The existence of the universe is not evidence for God
creating
it,
as
the
universe can exist without God creating it. Just as a
painting
can
be
painted without the purple people eater doing it.
Very interesting Jeckyl: Could you educate me a little
further?
I don't know .. it depends on your willingness t obe educated
Can you please provide me a reference that explains how the
universe
created
itself without a creator?
You are playing with words. You deliberately use the word
'created'
because
that implies a 'creator'. You're trying to lure me into a
fallacious
argument.
Answer: the universe was not created, it has existed since the
beginning
of
time.
Mr. Jeckyl,
I'm very willing to be educated. I'm trying to understand what
you
are
saying.
As I understand it, there was a "big bang" that occurred about 15
billion of
our years ago. That's when time and the space as we know it
started
to
exist. So far, on this issue, both this science and the Bible
agree.
I'm
assuming you agree also. My question is "what caused this big
bang
to
happen?" I'm not trying to play with the words here. I thought
you
had
some reference I could go to that explains how this big bang, the
start
of
our time and space, could have happened without some form of
intelligence
being behind that event.
There is no big bang in the bible.
Dear Mr. Haskell,
Please reread Genesis 1:1. Sounds exactly like the big bang to me.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth.
Looks like he skipped a few steps.
This way when a christer dies they are just put outside their door in a
hammock above the earth (ground).
Just think, when you go outside, the soles of your feet are on earth and
the
rest of you is in heaven.
What if you're down in the cellar, mixing up ***** in your meth
kitchen?
I guess according to Gen. the only thing created was earth and heaven, so I
guess the basement is just earth. I supposed it could be sporadically
heaven on earth LOL before it becomes your own personal version of hell?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Free Gift" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
20 Mar 2007 06:43:11 PM |
|
|
"Unsaved White Trash" <whewnotsaved@gmail.com> wrote in message news:46005241$0$18907$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
What if you're down in the cellar, mixing up ***** in your meth
kitchen?
I guess according to Gen. the only thing created was earth and heaven, so I guess the basement is just earth. I supposed it could
be sporadically heaven on earth LOL before it becomes your own personal version of hell?
Hell
Hell is one of those subjects that makes people uncomfortable. We hear
stories of hell being a place of fire, demons, and endless torment.
Throughout history many authors have written about it, Dante's Inferno
for example. Western culture is very familiar with the concept. Even
Hollywood has made it the subject of many movies. Whatever the
context, whatever the belief, hell is definitely taught in the Bible. But even
the doctrine of hell is not without its controversy. Some say it is only the
grave with no consciousness. Others say it is a place of correction and
punishment that is not eternal. Others say it is an endless agonizing
punishment in fire. Whichever it is, hell is the total absence of the favor of
God.
The words associated with Hell
Gehenna
In the OT, the word for hell is 'ge-hinnom' meaning "Valley of Hinnom."
It was a place to the southwest of Jerusalem. This place was once "called
'Topheth' and derived from an Aramaic word meaning 'fireplace.' It was
here that some pagan kings practiced human sacrifice by fire (2 Chron.
28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 32:25)(1). This is probably why in the NT the
word came to be associated with destruction by fire. The word 'gehenna'
is found in the NT 12 times and every instance is spoken of by Jesus. In
the NT, "gehenna" is used of a condition and never of a place.
Hades
This word only occurs in the NT, ten times, and corresponds to the OT
word "sheol." Jesus uses the word four times: (Matthew 11:23);
(Matthew 16:18); (Luke 10:15); (Luke 16:23). The other six occur in
Acts 2:27,31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13,14.
It was probably the "subterranean abode of all the dead until the
judgment. It was divided into two departments, paradise or Abraham's
bosom for the good, and Gehenna or hell for the bad."(2) In particular, in
the account of Lazarus and the Rich man of (Luke 16:19-31), it is the
place of the conscious dead who are wicked.
Sheol
"The Hebrew word Sheol is probably derived from a root "to make
hollow," and was seen as the common receptacle of the dead and in the
great many places the word appears in the OT, it is referring to the
grave.(3) It is a place and is mentioned in Gen. 37:35; Num. 16:30,33;
Psalm 16:10, etc. Sheol has many meanings in scripture: the grave, the
underworld, the state of the dead. It was supposed to be below the
surface of the earth (Ezek. 31:15,17; Psalm 86:13).
Is Hell Eternal Conscious Torment?
There are some Christian groups and many cults that deny the idea that
hell, in the general sense, means eternal, conscious punishment. Some
maintain that God's eternal punishment is annihilation, or non-existence.
Others say it is temporal and that eventually all will be saved out of hell.
Perhaps the most common objection is that a loving God would never
punish people in eternal torment. We agree that God is love (1 John 4:8),
but He is also just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and eternal (Psalm 90:2;
1 Tim. 1:17 ). God punishes the evil doer (Isaiah 11:13) and this
punishment will be eternal. But the question remains. Is this eternal
punishment conscious or not?
There are verses that can be interpreted to support the idea that the dead
are not conscious after death: (Ecc. 9:5 - the dead know nothing(4) and
Psalm 146:4 - their thoughts perish, are good examples.) Other verses
compare the dead to sleep: Acts 13:36; 1 Cor. 15:1-6; 1 Thess. 4:13,
etc. But these latter verses are merely comparing the similarity between
the appearance of the dead and the appearance of someone sleeping.
The Dead are Conscious After Death
The wicked descend alive into Sheol
Num. 16:30, "But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the
ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and
they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men
have spurned the Lord . . . 33So they and all that belonged to them went
down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished
from the midst of the assembly."
Cast to outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth
Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer
darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Those cast into the fire suffer consciously
Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they
will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who
commit lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that
place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." See also Matt.
13:50.
Cast into a tormenting fire
Rev. 14:9-10, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying
with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and
receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10he also will drink of
the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of
His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the
presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." See also,
Rev. 21:8.
Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment
Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will
thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the
barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go
into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29,30.
Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut
it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or
lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire.
9"And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from
you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes,
to be cast into the fiery hell."
Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from
Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the
devil and his angels.
Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the
righteous into eternal life."
The word 'eternal' in both places is "aionios" which means 1)without
beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2)
without beginning; 3)without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word
'punishment' is the word kolasis and it means "to punish, with the
implication of resulting severe suffering - 'to punish, punishment.'"(5)
Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since
they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after
strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment
of eternal fire."
Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of
life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man
In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically,
Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course,
rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to
Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts
up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks
for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the
rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his
brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that
will not be done either.
Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no
other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It
really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death
will say it is still a parable. The question then is, if it is? What is it
teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false,
then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth.
If it is a parable what does the consciousness after death symbolize?
Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of
course they are.
Conclusion
Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is
eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than
heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all,
if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd
get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is
strong.
Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it
from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish,
than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30"And if your right hand
makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you
that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go
into hell," (Matt. 5:29-30).
_________________
1. Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco:
Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.) 1985.
2. Unger, Merrill F., Unger's Bible Dictionary, (Chicago: Moody Press,
1966, p. 437.
3. Vine, W. E., Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament
Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981.
4. Ecclesiastes is a book that is addressed as things appear "under the sun"
(Ecc. 1:3,9,14, etc.). In fact, the phrase "under the sun" occurs 29 times in
Ecclesiastes, a book written from the human perspective and boldly states
that all is vanity.
5. Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the
New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible
Societies) 1988, 1989.
-- Sig
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| User: "Unsaved White Trash" |
|
| Title: Re: God rests on a logical fallacy. |
20 Mar 2007 06:04:50 PM |
|
|
"Free Gift" <fg@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:1174430697_815@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
"Unsaved White Trash" <whewnotsaved@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:46005241$0$18907$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
What if you're down in the cellar, mixing up ***** in your meth
kitchen?
I guess according to Gen. the only thing created was earth and heaven, so
I guess the basement is just earth. I supposed it could be sporadically
heaven on earth LOL before it becomes your own personal version of hell?
You missed the point Melty.
Hell is not a subject that makes ME uncomfortable.
The only kind of hell I believe in is when you go through some really hard
times... right here on earth.
Those hellish times pass, it's not a physical place, it's a state of being.
Or an expression? "Hell, no way I'm washing all those dishes".
You could get a little more flexible with your mindset.
Hell
Hell is one of those subjects that makes people uncomfortable. We hear
stories of hell being a place of fire, demons, and endless torment.
Throughout history many authors have written about it, Dante's Inferno
for example. Western culture is very familiar with the concept. Even
Hollywood has made it the subject of many movies. Whatever the
context, whatever the belief, hell is definitely taught in the Bible.
But even
the doctrine of hell is not without its controversy. Some say it is
only the
grave with no consciousness. Others say it is a place of correction
and
punishment that is not eternal. Others say it is an endless agonizing
punishment in fire. Whiche | | | | | |
