| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Les Hellawell" |
| Date: |
31 Jan 2005 10:14:31 AM |
| Object: |
Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
We are told the Bible is inerrant and the true word of god
Exodus 20:5
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them;
for I the Lord thy god am a jealous God..."
A direct admission of imperfection. JEALOUSY one of
humanities greatest weaknesses
Also VANITY
She thinks she is more important than the other gods and
wants the choosen people to worship her. But it is only
because she is vain and jealous of the other gods. She
comes across as a spoiled brat does she not? And
people regard this god as perfect? Huh!
What a botched invention!
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
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| User: "TSlining" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
31 Jan 2005 11:03:35 AM |
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Congratulations. You found a fallacy in the Bible. Keep reading it.
You may find one or two more. Tell your fundamentalist friends.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
31 Jan 2005 11:36:43 AM |
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On 31 Jan 2005 03:03:35 -0800, "TSlining" <tslining@gonzaga.edu> wrote:
Congratulations. You found a fallacy in the Bible. Keep reading it.
You may find one or two more. Tell your fundamentalist friends.
Stick to round ball, ts.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
31 Jan 2005 11:34:55 AM |
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:14:31 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
We are told the Bible is inerrant and the true word of god
Exodus 20:5
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them;
for I the Lord thy god am a jealous God..."
But of course. He tolerates no rivals - golden calves, selfishness, satanism,
drunkenness, envy, sloth, etc - all those human failures that we worship in lieu
of God ALL-mighty himself.
A direct admission of imperfection. JEALOUSY one of
humanities greatest weaknesses
Well, I know who you're not, but I can't remember his name. He had 2 other
points to demonstrate his foolishness.
Also VANITY
She thinks she is more important than the other gods and
wants the choosen people to worship her. But it is only
because she is vain and jealous of the other gods. She
comes across as a spoiled brat does she not? And
people regard this god as perfect? Huh!
Come on, les. This one is pretty weak.
What a botched invention!
Every atheist feels that way.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "Steve" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
31 Jan 2005 10:44:50 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:fi5sv0h0suf4jij3qmn124kpfhmm026oe4@4ax.com...
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:14:31 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
We are told the Bible is inerrant and the true word of god
Exodus 20:5
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them;
for I the Lord thy god am a jealous God..."
But of course. He tolerates no rivals - golden calves, selfishness,
satanism,
drunkenness, envy, sloth, etc - all those human failures that we worship
in lieu
of God ALL-mighty himself.
I notice that you have not actually addressed the point - merely made some
assertions and waved your hands about frantically. If your god can be
jealous - then i guess we could be made in his image - which means he must
have all the other frailties from which we suffer - and you worship this ?
ppfffftt !
Steve
A direct admission of imperfection. JEALOUSY one of
humanities greatest weaknesses
Well, I know who you're not, but I can't remember his name. He had 2
other
points to demonstrate his foolishness.
Also VANITY
She thinks she is more important than the other gods and
wants the choosen people to worship her. But it is only
because she is vain and jealous of the other gods. She
comes across as a spoiled brat does she not? And
people regard this god as perfect? Huh!
Come on, les. This one is pretty weak.
What a botched invention!
Every atheist feels that way.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
31 Jan 2005 11:34:28 PM |
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:44:50 +1100, "Steve" <kmbs57@hotmail.com> wrote:
Exodus 20:5
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them;
for I the Lord thy god am a jealous God..."
But of course. He tolerates no rivals - golden calves, selfishness,
satanism,
drunkenness, envy, sloth, etc - all those human failures that we worship
in lieu
of God ALL-mighty himself.
I notice that you have not actually addressed the point - merely made some
assertions and waved your hands about frantically.
And what do you think Les did? God clearly said up front - He is the Lord God.
Period. There are no others. What there are are other things we worship - like
sex, money, drink, food, etc that come before our good senses of giving before
getting - being second to the needy than before them.
There are 7 "capital sins", or mortal sins. They are pride, gluttony, aviarice,
lust, sloth, envy, and anger. These in and of themselves are not the problem.
The problem is that they become all consuming to the point we can let them take
1st place in our lives to the detriment of our families, our loved ones, our
children, the needy, etc.
If your god can be
jealous - then i guess we could be made in his image - which means he must
have all the other frailties from which we suffer - and you worship this ?
ppfffftt !
ppfffftt all you want. There is only one God who is all loving and who says
there is no other God.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "TSlining" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
01 Feb 2005 10:01:11 AM |
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ppfffftt all you want. There is only one God who is all loving and
who says
there is no other God.
If God were all loving, all forgiving, and omnipotent, judgement would
no longer makes sense. Why wouldn't God choose to forgive even the
most atrocious of sins and allow everyone eternal paradise? Assuming
all three premises to be correct, it is the only logical conclusion.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
01 Feb 2005 11:41:07 AM |
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On 1 Feb 2005 02:01:11 -0800, "TSlining" <tslining@gonzaga.edu> wrote:
ppfffftt all you want. There is only one God who is all loving and
who says
there is no other God.
If God were all loving, all forgiving, and omnipotent, judgement would
no longer makes sense.
Where do you get the idea that God is all forgiving. He clearly said we shall
not put other gods before him.
He loves the sinner, but hates the sin. If you and I put the sin before him,
why would you expect him to overlook it?
Why wouldn't God choose to forgive even the
most atrocious of sins and allow everyone eternal paradise?
I don't know. I can ask him if you want.
Assuming
all three premises to be correct, it is the only logical conclusion.
All 3 are not correct.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
01 Feb 2005 12:02:50 PM |
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duke wrote:
On 1 Feb 2005 02:01:11 -0800, "TSlining" <tslining@gonzaga.edu>
wrote:
ppfffftt all you want. There is only one God who is all loving
and
who says
there is no other God.
If God were all loving, all forgiving, and omnipotent, judgement
would
no longer makes sense.
Where do you get the idea that God is all forgiving. He clearly said
we shall
not put other gods before him.
He loves the sinner, but hates the sin. If you and I put the sin
before him,
why would you expect him to overlook it?
Why wouldn't God choose to forgive even the
most atrocious of sins and allow everyone eternal paradise?
I don't know. I can ask him if you want.
Assuming
all three premises to be correct, it is the only logical conclusion.
All 3 are not correct.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
Duke.
You must see that some beliefs held by Christians such as yourself are
not explainable to others with any rational. You must have personally
attained this knowledge. If that is the case how do you determine who
is delusional and who is not? If your knowledge was personally acquired
and cannot be explained how can we value it? How could you look to
another man and call him insane or a cult member when he may have
attained his knowledge in the same manner as you?
I am not addressing the validity of a god existing or your mental
health.
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
01 Feb 2005 06:52:17 PM |
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On 1 Feb 2005 04:02:50 -0800, "FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com>
wrote:
duke wrote:
On 1 Feb 2005 02:01:11 -0800, "TSlining" <tslining@gonzaga.edu>
wrote:
ppfffftt all you want. There is only one God who is all loving
and
who says
there is no other God.
If God were all loving, all forgiving, and omnipotent, judgement
would
no longer makes sense.
Where do you get the idea that God is all forgiving. He clearly said
we shall
not put other gods before him.
He loves the sinner, but hates the sin. If you and I put the sin
before him,
why would you expect him to overlook it?
Why wouldn't God choose to forgive even the
most atrocious of sins and allow everyone eternal paradise?
I don't know. I can ask him if you want.
Assuming
all three premises to be correct, it is the only logical conclusion.
All 3 are not correct.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
Duke.
You must see that some beliefs held by Christians such as yourself are
not explainable to others with any rational. You must have personally
attained this knowledge. If that is the case how do you determine who
is delusional and who is not? If your knowledge was personally acquired
and cannot be explained how can we value it? How could you look to
another man and call him insane or a cult member when he may have
attained his knowledge in the same manner as you?
I am not addressing the validity of a god existing or your mental
health.
We were not discussing what Duke believes, that is a given, we
were discussing "The word of god" as claimed in a supposedy
inerrant Bible. In it god says he is jealous which makes him vain.
This god is therefore not perfect as claimed. Duke has spend the
entire thread dodging this.
Nobody is questioning Dukes belief or the belief of theists but
we do question what they claim as true regarding things supernatural
otherwise it may be just pure invention or self-delusion They claim a
god exists. I would like to see evidence of that should they wish me
to accept what they claim as true as Duke clearly does.
To date he has given me absolutely no reason whatsover to accept
that this god of his exists except he points to nature which is no
answer at all as he also needs to demonstrate the necessary link
between the god and nature as well. Mere belief is not good enough
as belief is irrational because believing something does not make
it so (or not so) no matter how hard you try. I want real actual
tangible knowledge.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
01 Feb 2005 11:01:13 PM |
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Les Hellawell wrote:
On 1 Feb 2005 04:02:50 -0800, "FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com>
wrote:
duke wrote:
On 1 Feb 2005 02:01:11 -0800, "TSlining" <tslining@gonzaga.edu>
wrote:
ppfffftt all you want. There is only one God who is all loving
and
who says
there is no other God.
If God were all loving, all forgiving, and omnipotent, judgement
would
no longer makes sense.
Where do you get the idea that God is all forgiving. He clearly
said
we shall
not put other gods before him.
He loves the sinner, but hates the sin. If you and I put the sin
before him,
why would you expect him to overlook it?
Why wouldn't God choose to forgive even the
most atrocious of sins and allow everyone eternal paradise?
I don't know. I can ask him if you want.
Assuming
all three premises to be correct, it is the only logical
conclusion.
All 3 are not correct.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
Duke.
You must see that some beliefs held by Christians such as yourself
are
not explainable to others with any rational. You must have
personally
attained this knowledge. If that is the case how do you determine
who
is delusional and who is not? If your knowledge was personally
acquired
and cannot be explained how can we value it? How could you look to
another man and call him insane or a cult member when he may have
attained his knowledge in the same manner as you?
I am not addressing the validity of a god existing or your mental
health.
We were not discussing what Duke believes, that is a given, we
were discussing "The word of god" as claimed in a supposedy
inerrant Bible.
Duke seems really defensive for someone who does not believe it.
In it god says he is jealous which makes him vain.
This god is therefore not perfect as claimed. Duke has spend the
entire thread dodging this.
Nobody is questioning Dukes belief or the belief of theists but
we do question what they claim as true regarding things supernatural
That was a pretty daming editorial. It seems to question Duke's beliefs
quite well.
otherwise it may be just pure invention or self-delusion They claim a
god exists. I would like to see evidence of that should they wish me
to accept what they claim as true as Duke clearly does.
To date he has given me absolutely no reason whatsover to accept
that this god of his exists except he points to nature which is no
answer at all as he also needs to demonstrate the necessary link
between the god and nature as well. Mere belief is not good enough
as belief is irrational because believing something does not make
it so (or not so) no matter how hard you try. I want real actual
tangible knowledge.
Me too! Maybe we will get to peer into Duke's thoughts if he answers my
question.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
02 Feb 2005 12:00:15 AM |
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On 1 Feb 2005 04:02:50 -0800, "FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote:
Duke.
You must see that some beliefs held by Christians such as yourself are
not explainable to others with any rational.
Of course, but hey are cutting their own throats. All I can do is help them to
see the error of their ways.
You must have personally
attained this knowledge. If that is the case how do you determine who
is delusional and who is not?
Of course. Not an atheist anywhere's can substantiate the nonexistence of God.
If your knowledge was personally acquired
and cannot be explained how can we value it?
You must find it for yourself. You must turn to it yourself. It's your choice,
not mine.
How could you look to
another man and call him insane or a cult member when he may have
attained his knowledge in the same manner as you?
I've never called an atheist insane or a cult member.
I am not addressing the validity of a god existing or your mental
health.
I'm not worried about you. I'm worried what God sees.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
02 Feb 2005 01:01:06 AM |
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duke wrote:
On 1 Feb 2005 04:02:50 -0800, "FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Duke.
You must see that some beliefs held by Christians such as yourself
are
not explainable to others with any rational.
Of course, but hey are cutting their own throats. All I can do is
help them to
see the error of their ways.
You must have personally
attained this knowledge. If that is the case how do you determine
who
is delusional and who is not?
Of course. Not an atheist anywhere's can substantiate the
nonexistence of God.
If your knowledge was personally acquired
and cannot be explained how can we value it?
You must find it for yourself. You must turn to it yourself. It's
your choice,
not mine.
How could you look to
another man and call him insane or a cult member when he may have
attained his knowledge in the same manner as you?
I've never called an atheist insane or a cult member.
I'm not talking about Atheists. Would you call anybody insane or a cult
member? Your knowledge of God is all personal. Just like all of the
Jews and Muslims. You are outnumbered as a Christian by all of these
other religious folk. The are just as insistent as you with their
beliefs. All of this evidence is contrary to your personal knowledge of
God. What was so significant about your getting that knowledge that
makes you put so much confidence in it?
I am not addressing the validity of a god existing or your mental
health.
I'm not worried about you. I'm worried what God sees.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
03 Feb 2005 05:44:24 AM |
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FreeThink wrote:
duke wrote:
On 1 Feb 2005 04:02:50 -0800, "FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Duke.
You must see that some beliefs held by Christians such as yourself
are
not explainable to others with any rational.
Of course, but hey are cutting their own throats. All I can do is
help them to
see the error of their ways.
You must have personally
attained this knowledge. If that is the case how do you determine
who
is delusional and who is not?
Of course. Not an atheist anywhere's can substantiate the
nonexistence of God.
If your knowledge was personally acquired
and cannot be explained how can we value it?
You must find it for yourself. You must turn to it yourself. It's
your choice,
not mine.
How could you look to
another man and call him insane or a cult member when he may have
attained his knowledge in the same manner as you?
I've never called an atheist insane or a cult member.
I'm not talking about Atheists. Would you call anybody insane or a
cult
member? Your knowledge of God is all personal. Just like all of the
Jews and Muslims. You are outnumbered as a Christian by all of these
other religious folk. The are just as insistent as you with their
beliefs. All of this evidence is contrary to your personal knowledge
of
God. What was so significant about your getting that knowledge that
makes you put so much confidence in it?
I am not addressing the validity of a god existing or your mental
health.
I'm not worried about you. I'm worried what God sees.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
Come on Duke. I'm being respectful towards you and I want to have a
real exchange. Where are you? I want to hear of your experiences
related to your getting faith. Isn't this what you want?
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
03 Feb 2005 11:42:52 AM |
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On 1 Feb 2005 17:01:06 -0800, "FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote:
You are outnumbered as a Christian by all of these
other religious folk. The are just as insistent as you with their
beliefs.
Yet it's all about the same almighty God.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
01 Feb 2005 10:28:51 AM |
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:34:28 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:44:50 +1100, "Steve" <kmbs57@hotmail.com> wrote:
Exodus 20:5
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them;
for I the Lord thy god am a jealous God..."
But of course. He tolerates no rivals - golden calves, selfishness,
satanism,
drunkenness, envy, sloth, etc - all those human failures that we worship
in lieu
of God ALL-mighty himself.
I notice that you have not actually addressed the point - merely made some
assertions and waved your hands about frantically.
And what do you think Les did? God clearly said up front - He is the Lord God.
Period. There are no others. What there are are other things we worship - like
sex, money, drink, food, etc that come before our good senses of giving before
getting - being second to the needy than before them.
There are 7 "capital sins", or mortal sins. They are pride, gluttony, aviarice,
lust, sloth, envy, and anger. These in and of themselves are not the problem.
The problem is that they become all consuming to the point we can let them take
1st place in our lives to the detriment of our families, our loved ones, our
children, the needy, etc.
If your god can be
jealous - then i guess we could be made in his image - which means he must
have all the other frailties from which we suffer - and you worship this ?
ppfffftt !
ppfffftt all you want. There is only one God who is all loving and who says
there is no other God.
You will almost certainly go to hell now for calling your god a liar.
She said
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (KJ)
Why say "no other gods" rather than "I am the only god"?
You also disobey him when you permit graven images in your churches.
Statues of Mary - they are even worshipped , Graven images of Christ
on the Chross, graven images of 'Saints', graven images of plant life,
cribs. All strictly prohibited as supposedly the direct word of god.
Strewth you will have a lot to answer for mately on that legendary
moment after. Fortunatel that wont happen as you will be dead.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
01 Feb 2005 11:47:18 AM |
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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 10:28:51 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
ppfffftt all you want. There is only one God who is all loving and who says
there is no other God.
You will almost certainly go to hell now for calling your god a liar.
She said
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (KJ)
Notice the small "g". Notice also that it doesn't say "gods that move".
Check your 7 mortal sins. None move.
Why say "no other gods" rather than "I am the only god"?
He said "I am the Lord your God". You shall have no other (g)ods before me.
The Hebrews called the golden calf their god. No moooooing.
You also disobey him when you permit graven images in your churches.
Nope, not a chance.
Statues of Mary - they are even worshipped
Not a fart's chance in a hurricane are they worshipped.
, Graven images of Christ
on the Chross, graven images of 'Saints', graven images of plant life,
cribs. All strictly prohibited as supposedly the direct word of god.
Not so much as one single figurine is worshipped.
Strewth you will have a lot to answer for mately on that legendary
moment after. Fortunatel that wont happen as you will be dead.
You'll come to understand one day.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "sanguinevikings" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
02 Feb 2005 10:19:12 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 10:28:51 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Check your 7 mortal sins. None move.
You'll come to understand one day.
And the first mortal sin is?
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
03 Feb 2005 02:25:35 AM |
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On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:19:12 +0000, sanguinevikings <spam@spam.not>
said in alt.atheism:
duke wrote:
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 10:28:51 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Check your 7 mortal sins. None move.
You'll come to understand one day.
And the first mortal sin is?
Being Christian.
--
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
03 Feb 2005 11:43:30 AM |
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On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:19:12 +0000, sanguinevikings <spam@spam.not> wrote:
Check your 7 mortal sins. None move.
You'll come to understand one day.
And the first mortal sin is?
Saying "no" to God.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
31 Jan 2005 12:06:20 PM |
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 05:34:55 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:14:31 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
We are told the Bible is inerrant and the true word of god
Exodus 20:5
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them;
for I the Lord thy god am a jealous God..."
But of course. He tolerates no rivals - golden calves, selfishness, satanism,
drunkenness, envy, sloth, etc - all those human failures that we worship in lieu
of God ALL-mighty himself.
A direct admission of imperfection. JEALOUSY one of
humanities greatest weaknesses
Well, I know who you're not, but I can't remember his name. He had 2 other
points to demonstrate his foolishness.
Also VANITY
She thinks she is more important than the other gods and
wants the choosen people to worship her. But it is only
because she is vain and jealous of the other gods. She
comes across as a spoiled brat does she not? And
people regard this god as perfect? Huh!
Come on, les. This one is pretty weak.
What a botched invention!
Every atheist feels that way.
It is patently obvious Duke. Jealousy, flawed invention, vanity
an unstable Earth humans with poor eyesight and so on.
In reality Intelligent design seems like a very poor explanation for
the way things are. Either that or the designer herself is flawed. We
certainly invented god in our own image, incuding all our human
weaknesses. It also reflects the kind of mindset that existed
in the middle East Arab world where revenge and feud was the
norm for settling injustice to ones family and tribe. This god
concept no longer fits in with modern free democratic nations
where notions of tribes has gone and justice and law comes
from a collective will.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
31 Jan 2005 11:26:56 PM |
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:06:20 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
She thinks she is more important than the other gods and
wants the choosen people to worship her. But it is only
because she is vain and jealous of the other gods. She
comes across as a spoiled brat does she not? And
people regard this god as perfect? Huh!
Come on, les. This one is pretty weak.
What a botched invention!
Every atheist feels that way.
It is patently obvious Duke. Jealousy, flawed invention, vanity
an unstable Earth humans with poor eyesight and so on.
Sorry, that was mankind's decision when we disobeyed God's instructions. We got
kicked out of the garden to play god on our own. Look at the mess we made.
In reality Intelligent design seems like a very poor explanation for
the way things are. Either that or the designer herself is flawed.
Actually, the human body is the blue print for all things both mechanical and
electrical.
That's what we mean by "design in mind", or intelligent design.
Of course, mikey goes ballistic over this, but he'll learn one day.
We
certainly invented god in our own image, incuding all our human
weaknesses. It also reflects the kind of mindset that existed
in the middle East Arab world where revenge and feud was the
norm for settling injustice to ones family and tribe. This god
concept no longer fits in with modern free democratic nations
where notions of tribes has gone and justice and law comes
from a collective will.
God came before all that. I explained why above.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
01 Feb 2005 10:20:24 AM |
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|
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:26:56 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:06:20 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
She thinks she is more important than the other gods and
wants the choosen people to worship her. But it is only
because she is vain and jealous of the other gods. She
comes across as a spoiled brat does she not? And
people regard this god as perfect? Huh!
Come on, les. This one is pretty weak.
What a botched invention!
Every atheist feels that way.
It is patently obvious Duke. Jealousy, flawed invention, vanity
an unstable Earth humans with poor eyesight and so on.
Sorry, that was mankind's decision when we disobeyed God's instructions. We got
kicked out of the garden to play god on our own. Look at the mess we made.
The earth, as is and mankind as is, was supposedly created BEFORE Adam
was supposedly excluded from the garden of Eden except they were
created not knowing good or evil. So, when this god concept told Adam
not to eath the fruit of knowledge of good and evil they did not
understand it was wrong to eat the fruit. They only realised it was
wrong AFTER they ate it. In other words Howard gave them either a
bogus test or was being evil himself. So there you are YET ANOTHER
imperfection of this god of yours.
JEALOUSY
VANITY
DEVIOUS LIAR
That's three now for certain out of the very first book of the Bible
and straight out of the gods mouth. If you believe the Bible is the
inerrant word of god then you must accept this as true. You have
an imperfect and flawed god which is no better than you.
It would seem that Exodus is the origin of the phrase "Do as I
say, not what I do" and is one of the fundamental tenets of
Christianity.
Thank you for reminding me of that one Duke.
Over
In reality Intelligent design seems like a very poor explanation for
the way things are. Either that or the designer herself is flawed.
Actually, the human body is the blue print for all things both mechanical and
electrical.
An interesting non-sequitor.
So, from which part of the body is the wheel derived? I think I asked
you before but you declined to answer
That's what we mean by "design in mind", or intelligent design.
Of course, mikey goes ballistic over this, but he'll learn one day.
We
certainly invented god in our own image, incuding all our human
weaknesses. It also reflects the kind of mindset that existed
in the middle East Arab world where revenge and feud was the
norm for settling injustice to ones family and tribe. This god
concept no longer fits in with modern free democratic nations
where notions of tribes has gone and justice and law comes
from a collective will.
God came before all that. I explained why above.
Nah, we invented god in our own image, imperfections an all.
I wonder if this god now has crippling arthritis?
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
If choosen can we decline the offer?
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
|
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| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
01 Feb 2005 11:36:55 AM |
|
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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 10:20:24 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Sorry, that was mankind's decision when we disobeyed God's instructions. We got
kicked out of the garden to play god on our own. Look at the mess we made.
The earth, as is and mankind as is, was supposedly created BEFORE Adam
was supposedly excluded from the garden of Eden except they were
created not knowing good or evil.
Ok, let's see - this is all literally true, rather than spiritual, to you,
right?
So, when this god concept told Adam
not to eath the fruit of knowledge of good and evil they did not
understand it was wrong to eat the fruit.
How so? He clearly said "do not". However, when tempted, Eve chose sin over
obedience to God - viola, original sin. It's the same for you and me. Choosing
"me" before God. Choosing our sin nature before God.
They only realised it was
wrong AFTER they ate it. In other words Howard gave them either a
bogus test or was being evil himself. So there you are YET ANOTHER
imperfection of this god of yours.
Not at all. The sin nature is a human failure nature. God calls us to see it,
overcome it. Eve failed. Our sin nature is put first before God. .
JEALOUSY
VANITY
DEVIOUS LIAR
I understand.
That's three now for certain out of the very first book of the Bible
and straight out of the gods mouth. If you believe the Bible is the
inerrant word of god then you must accept this as true. You have
an imperfect and flawed god which is no better than you.
No, you are I are not better than God.
It would seem that Exodus is the origin of the phrase "Do as I
say, not what I do" and is one of the fundamental tenets of
Christianity.
God loves us so much that he wanted us created in his own image. Now that
doesn't (necessarily) mean 5 finger hands and 2 eyes. But also a free will.
Man's sin nature overcame our free will to say no to God rather than yes.
Thank you for reminding me of that one Duke.
Now put it to intelligent use.
Actually, the human body is the blue print for all things both mechanical and
electrical.
An interesting non-sequitor.
The heart as pump, the stomach as energy converter, the brain as computer, the
kidney as waste treatment, and on and on and on.
So, from which part of the body is the wheel derived? I think I asked
you before but you declined to answer
Doing a sommersault (sp) I would imagine. A shoulder joint, a neck swivel.
It's things going round and round lubricated by those things between the ball
and socket in our joints. You know the rest.
Nah, we invented god in our own image, imperfections an all.
I wonder if this god now has crippling arthritis?
We had it made in the garden to which we hope to return, at least some of us.
It's man's failure at being a god.
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
If choosen can we decline the offer?
You don't get chosen if you decline the offer. Sin - work to overcome it.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
|
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
01 Feb 2005 06:33:15 PM |
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|
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 05:36:55 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 10:20:24 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Sorry, that was mankind's decision when we disobeyed God's instructions. We got
kicked out of the garden to play god on our own. Look at the mess we made.
The earth, as is and mankind as is, was supposedly created BEFORE Adam
was supposedly excluded from the garden of Eden except they were
created not knowing good or evil.
Ok, let's see - this is all literally true, rather than spiritual, to you,
right?
If the Bible is inerrent and the word of god as claimed.
So, when this god concept told Adam
not to eath the fruit of knowledge of good and evil they did not
understand it was wrong to eat the fruit.
How so? He clearly said "do not". However, when tempted, Eve chose sin over
obedience to God - viola, original sin. It's the same for you and me. Choosing
"me" before God. Choosing our sin nature before God.
but they did not know it was a sin to disobey god did they? They had
not yet eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good or evil. They
cannot possibly have known they had committed an evil (sinful) act
could they? They were totally innocent.
They only realised it was
wrong AFTER they ate it. In other words Howard gave them either a
bogus test or was being evil himself. So there you are YET ANOTHER
imperfection of this god of yours.
Not at all. The sin nature is a human failure nature. God calls us to see it,
overcome it. Eve failed. Our sin nature is put first before God. .
but they were created without sin, innocent and ignorant of knowledge
of good an even. They did not know what was good, they did not know
what was evil. They cannot possibly know that the seperpent was evil.
JEALOUSY
VANITY
DEVIOUS LIAR
I understand.
That's three now for certain out of the very first book of the Bible
and straight out of the gods mouth. If you believe the Bible is the
inerrant word of god then you must accept this as true. You have
an imperfect and flawed god which is no better than you.
No, you are I are not better than God.
I am better than things that do not exist, but only for a brief moment
in time. The extreme limit of what I could possibly hope for is
another 50 years, though I suspect another 20 is the more likely
when I will be as your concept of a god. Null and void for ever.
It would seem that Exodus is the origin of the phrase "Do as I
say, not what I do" and is one of the fundamental tenets of
Christianity.
God loves us so much that he wanted us created in his own image. Now that
doesn't (necessarily) mean 5 finger hands and 2 eyes. But also a free will.
Man's sin nature overcame our free will to say no to God rather than yes.
If we were created in gods image then he is not invisible,
undetectable and is of finite size. A being that has an image is
viewable. Where is she? Nor for that matter do we have a planet
sized brain (or bigger which a creator of the universe and all life
within it would need)
Thank you for reminding me of that one Duke.
Now put it to intelligent use.
I have done. I treat the Bible stories in the same way I treat the
stories in the Brothers Grimm ot The Lord of The Rings except
they are no as well written or as interesting.
Actually, the human body is the blue print for all things both mechanical and
electrical.
An interesting non-sequitor.
The heart as pump, the stomach as energy converter, the brain as computer, the
kidney as waste treatment, and on and on and on.
Still a non sequitor.
So, from which part of the body is the wheel derived? I think I asked
you before but you declined to answer
Doing a sommersault (sp) I would imagine. A shoulder joint, a neck swivel.
It's things going round and round lubricated by those things between the ball
and socket in our joints. You know the rest.
Now you are being plain silly.
Nah, we invented god in our own image, imperfections an all.
I wonder if this god now has crippling arthritis?
We had it made in the garden to which we hope to return, at least some of us.
It's man's failure at being a god.
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
If choosen can we decline the offer?
You don't get chosen if you decline the offer. Sin - work to overcome it.
Nor received any offers from a god yet. If it really does come the
moment after I die then of course I will accept but I really do doubt
it and I do not indulge myself in wishful thinking
duke
*****
Matthew 22
CONTRADICTION WARNING
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
If god is all loving and all forgiving then all who accept the
invitation and confess (whatever is required) will be choosen surely?
Who could possibly refuse such an offer? No thanks I prefer
to burn in hell. I don't think so.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
|
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| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
01 Feb 2005 11:56:34 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 18:33:15 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
The earth, as is and mankind as is, was supposedly created BEFORE Adam
was supposedly excluded from the garden of Eden except they were
created not knowing good or evil.
Ok, let's see - this is all literally true, rather than spiritual, to you,
right?
If the Bible is inerrent and the word of god as claimed.
Who told you everything in the bible is inerrant?
The word of God is, but not all words in the bible are the words of God.
How so? He clearly said "do not". However, when tempted, Eve chose sin over
obedience to God - viola, original sin. It's the same for you and me. Choosing
"me" before God. Choosing our sin nature before God.
but they did not know it was a sin to disobey god did they?
How do you know? He said "do not". What do you suppose they didn't understand?
They had
not yet eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good or evil. They
cannot possibly have known they had committed an evil (sinful) act
could they? They were totally innocent.
No, God told them "do not".
Not at all. The sin nature is a human failure nature. God calls us to see it,
overcome it. Eve failed. Our sin nature is put first before God. .
but they were created without sin, innocent and ignorant of knowledge
of good an even.
True, but they also knew God said "do not".
They did not know what was good, they did not know
what was evil. They cannot possibly know that the seperpent was evil.
Then why did they disobey God, who told then "do not"?
No, you are I are not better than God.
I am better than things that do not exist, but only for a brief moment
in time. The extreme limit of what I could possibly hope for is
another 50 years, though I suspect another 20 is the more likely
when I will be as your concept of a god. Null and void for ever.
Hey, it's your funeral. It's no skin off my nose.
God loves us so much that he wanted us created in his own image. Now that
doesn't (necessarily) mean 5 finger hands and 2 eyes. But also a free will.
Man's sin nature overcame our free will to say no to God rather than yes.
If we were created in gods image then he is not invisible,
undetectable and is of finite size.
Could be. Nobody knows.
A being that has an image is
viewable.
Yet image is not necessarily viewable. Image also includes qualities of love,
sorry, pain, hurt, etc. Like I told you yesterday, it has nothing to do,
necessarily, with physical parameters.
Where is she? Nor for that matter do we have a planet
sized brain (or bigger which a creator of the universe and all life
within it would need)
God is everywhere's, all at one time.
Thank you for reminding me of that one Duke.
Now put it to intelligent use.
I have done. I treat the Bible stories in the same way I treat the
stories in the Brothers Grimm ot The Lord of The Rings except
they are no as well written or as interesting.
Lord of the Rings doesn't control your final eternal destination. God does.
Actually, the human body is the blue print for all things both mechanical and
electrical.
An interesting non-sequitor.
The heart as pump, the stomach as energy converter, the brain as computer, the
kidney as waste treatment, and on and on and on.
Still a non sequitor.
In other words, you don't understand.
So, from which part of the body is the wheel derived? I think I asked
you before but you declined to answer
Doing a sommersault (sp) I would imagine. A shoulder joint, a neck swivel.
It's things going round and round lubricated by those things between the ball
and socket in our joints. You know the rest.
Now you are being plain silly.
Why, don't you understand rotation, and lubrication?
You don't get chosen if you decline the offer. Sin - work to overcome it.
Nor received any offers from a god yet. If it really does come the
moment after I die then of course I will accept but I really do doubt
it and I do not indulge myself in wishful thinking
Sure you have - every moment of every day. You just keep ignoring God.
CONTRADICTION WARNING
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
If god is all loving and all forgiving then all who accept the
invitation and confess (whatever is required) will be choosen surely?
Of course, but you admit you reject the invitation.
Who could possibly refuse such an offer? No thanks I prefer
to burn in hell. I don't think so.
Hey, it's your choice.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
|
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
02 Feb 2005 03:35:11 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:56:34 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 18:33:15 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
The earth, as is and mankind as is, was supposedly created BEFORE Adam
was supposedly excluded from the garden of Eden except they were
created not knowing good or evil.
Ok, let's see - this is all literally true, rather than spiritual, to you,
right?
If the Bible is inerrent and the word of god as claimed.
Who told you everything in the bible is inerrant?
Several people on this newsgroup have been quite insistent
The word of God is, but not all words in the bible are the words of God.
According to the Bible god not only said he was jealous but carved it
in stone so you would be in no doubt whatsover.
Of the whole thing to be is a made up story, but then I have no reason
think there is a god. It's up to you whether you take it as the word
of god or not and accept this god is not perfect but has human
weaknessess. I think it is evidence that we created this concept of a
god in our own image.
How so? He clearly said "do not". However, when tempted, Eve chose sin over
obedience to God - viola, original sin. It's the same for you and me. Choosing
"me" before God. Choosing our sin nature before God.
but they did not know it was a sin to disobey god did they?
How do you know? He said "do not". What do you suppose they didn't understand?
What I said above and below . Your eyes seem incapable of reading the
words. Maybe there is some kind of automatic blind spot that fails to
see uncomfortable truths. Maybe you are blind in one eye like Nelson
who said he could not see any orders when he looked through his blind
eye.
They had
not yet eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good or evil. They
cannot possibly have known they had committed an evil (sinful) act
could they? They were totally innocent.
No, God told them "do not".
Yes but they did not understand it, gow could they?
Not at all. The sin nature is a human failure nature. God calls us to see it,
overcome it. Eve failed. Our sin nature is put first before God. .
but they were created without sin, innocent and ignorant of knowledge
of good an even.
True, but they also knew God said "do not".
but they did not understand what it meant did they?
They did not know what was good, they did not know
what was evil. They cannot possibly know that the seperpent was evil.
Then why did they disobey God, who told then "do not"?
because they did not understand it was evil or wrong to disobey.
It is like saying to a three month old baby I will hit you if you cry.
The baby cannot possibly understand or stop itself from crying.
Gods punishment to the five minute (or thereabouts) Adam and
Eve was totally out of proportion to their crime of not understanding.
No, you are I are not better than God.
I am better than things that do not exist, but only for a brief moment
in time. The extreme limit of what I could possibly hope for is
another 50 years, though I suspect another 20 is the more likely
when I will be as your concept of a god. Null and void for ever.
Hey, it's your funeral. It's no skin off my nose.
Fine, so stop wittering on about it.
God loves us so much that he wanted us created in his own image. Now that
doesn't (necessarily) mean 5 finger hands and 2 eyes. But also a free will.
Man's sin nature overcame our free will to say no to God rather than yes.
If we were created in gods image then he is not invisible,
undetectable and is of finite size.
Could be. Nobody knows.
At long last you begin to understand!
A being that has an image is
viewable.
Yet image is not necessarily viewable. Image also includes qualities of love,
sorry, pain, hurt, etc. Like I told you yesterday, it has nothing to do,
necessarily, with physical parameters.
Possibly, but as you say nobody knows.
Where is she? Nor for that matter do we have a planet
sized brain (or bigger which a creator of the universe and all life
within it would need)
God is everywhere's, all at one time.
Possibly, but as you say nobody knows.
It is more likely that there is no god at all.
Thank you for reminding me of that one Duke.
Now put it to intelligent use.
I have done. I treat the Bible stories in the same way I treat the
stories in the Brothers Grimm ot The Lord of The Rings except
they are no as well written or as interesting.
Lord of the Rings doesn't control your final eternal destination. God does.
Neither does any other mythology of which the Bible is one.
Actually, the human body is the blue print for all things both mechanical and
electrical.
An interesting non-sequitor.
The heart as pump, the stomach as energy converter, the brain as computer, the
kidney as waste treatment, and on and on and on.
Still a non sequitor.
In other words, you don't understand.
I understand it is a non-sequitor as regards this thread which is
about the Bible telling us that god told us he was jealous and
therefore flawed.
So, from which part of the body is the wheel derived? I think I asked
you before but you declined to answer
Doing a sommersault (sp) I would imagine. A shoulder joint, a neck swivel.
It's things going round and round lubricated by those things between the ball
and socket in our joints. You know the rest.
Now you are being plain silly.
Why, don't you understand rotation, and lubrication?
You torque too much.
You don't get chosen if you decline the offer. Sin - work to overcome it.
Nor received any offers from a god yet. If it really does come the
moment after I die then of course I will accept but I really do doubt
it and I do not indulge myself in wishful thinking
Sure you have - every moment of every day. You just keep ignoring God.
What god, I know of no god only that some claim there is one but they
never demonstrate how they know. Simply suggesting we look around
as they do not show how this is evidence of a god.
CONTRADICTION WARNING
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
If god is all loving and all forgiving then all who accept the
invitation and confess (whatever is required) will be choosen surely?
Of course, but you admit you reject the invitation.
I have not been invited. How many times do I have to tell you?
Who could possibly refuse such an offer? No thanks I prefer
to burn in hell. I don't think so.
Hey, it's your choice.
Not been given one, there is no choice to give.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Proof the god concept is NOT PERFECT |
03 Feb 2005 11:41:44 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:35:11 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Who told you everything in the bible is inerrant?
Several people on this newsgroup have been quite insistent
They're the atheists.
The word of God is, but not all words in the bible are the words of God.
According to the Bible god not only said he was jealous but carved it
in stone so you would be in no doubt whatsover.
Of the whole thing to be is a made up story, but then I have no reason
think there is a god. It's up to you whether you take it as the word
of god or not and accept this god is not perfect but has human
weaknessess. I think it is evidence that we created this concept of a
god in our own image.
That's your decision. You're welcome to it. Just don't think you ca convince a
Christian that you know what you're talking about.
How so? He clearly said "do not". However, when tempted, Eve chose sin over
obedience to God - viola, original sin. It's the same for you and me. Choosing
"me" before God. Choosing our sin nature before God.
but they did not know it was a sin to disobey god did they?
How do you know? He said "do not". What do you suppose they didn't understand?
What I said above and below . Your eyes seem incapable of reading the
words. Maybe there is some kind of automatic blind spot that fails to
see uncomfortable truths. Maybe you are blind in one eye like Nelson
who said he could not see any orders when he looked through his blind
eye.
I repeat. He said "do not". What about that do you think they didn't
understand?
No, God told them "do not".
Yes but they did not understand it, gow could they?
What do you suppose about "do not" that they didn't understand?
but they did not understand what it meant did they?
Of course they did. They repeated it to the devil.
They did not know what was good, they did not know
what was evil. They cannot possibly know that the seperpent was evil.
Then why did they disobey God, who told then "do not"?
because they did not understand it was evil or wrong to disobey.
What does evil or wrong have to do with it. God said "do not". They disobeyed.
If we were created in gods image then he is not invisible,
undetectable and is of finite size.
Could be. Nobody knows.
At long last you begin to understand!
Nope, we didn't create ourselves in his image. He created us in his image.
A being that has an image is
viewable.
Yet image is not necessarily viewable. Image also includes qualities of love,
sorry, pain, hurt, etc. Like I told you yesterday, it has nothing to do,
necessarily, with physical parameters.
Possibly, but as you say nobody knows.
At long last you begin to understand.
I understand it is a non-sequitor as regards this thread which is
about the Bible telling us that god told us he was jealous and
therefore flawed.
He didn't say he was jealous, he said he was a jealous God.
Why, don't you understand rotation, and lubrication?
You torque too much.
God's invention.
Sure you have - every moment of every day. You just keep ignoring God.
What god, I know of no god only that some claim there is one but they
never demonstrate how they know. Simply suggesting we look around
as they do not show how this is evidence of a god.
Every thing you see is either from God or an accident.
CONTRADICTION WARNING
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
If god is all loving and all forgiving then all who accept the
invitation and confess (whatever is required) will be choosen surely?
Of course, but you admit you reject the invitation.
I have not been invited. How many times do I have to tell you?
Yes you reject the invitation.
Who could possibly refuse such an offer? No thanks I prefer
to burn in hell. I don't think so.
Hey, it's your choice.
Not been given one, there is no choice to give.
You are invited.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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