PROPER CITE, ANYBODY?



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: ""
Date: 03 Jan 2004 12:59:35 PM
Object: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY?
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams,
letter to Thomas Jefferson

AND
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams
.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 01:34:31 AM
wrote:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams,
letter to Thomas Jefferson

AND

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams

Here's a date which might help (no idea if it is valid):
http://www.onenationundergod.net/_Articles/00000257.htm

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! -John Adams (letter to Thomas Jefferson, Sept. 3, 1816)

At least one other site had the same date.
Another source (has many other quotes with somewhat decent citations):
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

Those books may have more complete citations.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
User: "Carol Lee Smith"

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 02:01:45 AM
On Sun, 4 Jan 2004, Bob LeChevalier wrote:

buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams,
letter to Thomas Jefferson

[here Haught includes "(Seldes)" but there is no such author listed in
the Bibliography (1996 publication)]

Another source (has many other quotes with somewhat decent citations):
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

Those books may have more complete citations.

.
User: ""

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 05:45:00 AM
Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

:|On Sun, 4 Jan 2004, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
:|
:|>

wrote:
:|> > "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
:|> >the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
:|> >Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams,
:|> >letter to Thomas Jefferson
:|
:|[here Haught includes "(Seldes)" but there is no such author listed in
:|the Bibliography (1996 publication)]
:|
:|> Another source (has many other quotes with somewhat decent citations):
:|> http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm
:|> >I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
:|> >-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
:|> Those books may have more complete citations.

Thanks. Mike wanted to use the quote in his brief which is due the 23rd of
this month, however he asked for a three week extension.
The only problem I have with such books, Great Quotations and other such
books is I don't trust them I don't trust them because few of them ever
give complete cites and I have found invalid quotes in a couple of them.
John Adams is useless, John Adams to Thomas Jefferson is useless, John
Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson is useless, unless John Adams wrote
very few letters to Thomas Jefferson which isn't the case.
.
User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 02:13:09 PM
wrote:

:|> Another source (has many other quotes with somewhat decent citations):
:|> http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm
:|> >I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
:|> >-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
:|> Those books may have more complete citations.


Thanks. Mike wanted to use the quote in his brief which is due the 23rd of
this month, however he asked for a three week extension.

The only problem I have with such books, Great Quotations and other such
books is I don't trust them I don't trust them because few of them ever
give complete cites and I have found invalid quotes in a couple of them.
John Adams is useless, John Adams to Thomas Jefferson is useless, John
Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson is useless, unless John Adams wrote
very few letters to Thomas Jefferson which isn't the case.

I figured that with the date you could/woukd try the LOC and other
sites with collections of the Founders correspondence. In any event,
you should be able to produce a complete citation to the manuscript in
the LOC


http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mtj1&fileName=mtj1page049.db&recNum=424&itemLink=/ammem/mtjhtml/mtjser1.html&linkText=7&tempFile=./temp/~ammem_mpYR&filecode=manz,eaa,aap,aaeo,rbaapcbib,aasm,ftvbib,aaodyssey,hh,gottscho,mharendt,bbpix,bbcards,magbell,berl,lbcoll,rbpebib,calbkbib,tccc,lhbcbbib,cdn,cic,cwband,cwnyhs,gmd,mtaft,cwar,cola,consrvbib,bdsbib,coolbib,coplandbib,curt,dag,musdibib,fsaall,mfd,papr,aep,finemtj&next_filecode=mtj&prev_filecode=mtj&UA=mdb=manz,eaa,aap,aaeo,rbaapcbib,aasm,ftvbib,aaodyssey,hh,gottscho,mharendt,bbpix,bbcards,magbell,berl,lbcoll,rbpebib,calbkbib,tccc,lhbcbbib,cdn,cic,cwband,cwnyhs,gmd,mtaft,cwar,cola,consrvbib,bdsbib,coolbib,coplandbib,curt,dag,musdibib,fsaall,mfd,papr,aep,fine,fmuever,dcm,cmns,flwpabib,afcreed,cowellbib,toddbib,lomaxbib,ngp,afcwwgbib,haybib,raelbib,gottlieb,mtj,alad,wpa,mal,scsm,mcc,mymhiwebib,mmorse,aipn,ncpm,ncpsbib,afcwip,fawbib,omhbib,pan,afcpearl,vv,wpapos,psbib,pin,presp,lhbprbib,qlt,ncr,relpet,mussm,dukesm,mesnbib,lls
tbib,denn,amss,uncall,fpnas,svybib,runyon,wtc,lhbtnbib,detr,hlaw,lhbumbib,upboverbib,varstg,horyd,mgw,hawp,nawbib,suffrg,awh,awhbib,nfor,sgp,wright&itemnum=7&ndocs=164


If that link is too long, it is
Thomas Jefferson Papers Series 1. General Correspondence. 1651-1827
John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, September 3, 1816
Image 425 of 1306
and
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mtjhtml/mtjhome.html
is the home page for the collection.
The quote is at the end of the 3 page letter (images 423-5)
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.




User: "386sx"

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 05:34:42 AM
buckeye-ELO writes:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams,
letter to Thomas Jefferson

AND

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams

It's actually dated Sept. 3 1816, not Sept. 13 1816 as was incorrectly
posted earlier by the good senator.
The whole letter (plus a lot more) is here,
http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff15.txt
and photos of the actual letter itself from the Library Of Congress are
here,
http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/049/0400/0423.jpg
http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/049/0400/0424.jpg
http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/049/0400/0425.jpg
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! With the
rational respect which is due to it, knavish priests have added
prostitutions of it, that fill, or might fill, the blackest and bloodiest
pages of human history."
Looks like more than a few folks have been quoting this slightly out of
context. (Gee, what a big surprise.)
--
Meme-complex \Meem kompleks\, n. The freedom to worship god his way.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 07:51:19 AM
386sx <386sx@email.com> wrote:

:|buckeye-ELO writes:
:|
:|> "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
:|> the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
:|> Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams,
:|> letter to Thomas Jefferson
:|>
:|> AND
:|>
:|> "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
:|> the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
:|> Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams
:|
:|It's actually dated Sept. 3 1816, not Sept. 13 1816 as was incorrectly
:|posted earlier by the good senator.

What senator?
Senator Hillary, never heard of such a person and I seriously doubt that
any real senator, state of federal would be reading usenet newsgroups :O)

:|
:|The whole letter (plus a lot more) is here,
:|
:|http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff15.txt
:|
:|and photos of the actual letter itself from the Library Of Congress are
:|here,
:|
:|http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/049/0400/0423.jpg
:|http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/049/0400/0424.jpg
:|http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/049/0400/0425.jpg
:|
:|"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
:|the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-the Cross.
:|Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! With the
:|rational respect which is due to it, knavish priests have added
:|prostitutions of it, that fill, or might fill, the blackest and bloodiest
:|pages of human history."
:|
:|Looks like more than a few folks have been quoting this slightly out of
:|context. (Gee, what a big surprise.)

I will have to add this quote to our growing collection at
Study Guide to Quotes:
Quotes in General
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7a.htm
Problematical Separationist Quotes
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7b.htm
Problematical Religious Right Quotes And Arguments
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7c.htm
**********************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
**************************************************
.


User: "Senator Hillary 386sx"

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 03:54:40 AM
nospam.net writes:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams,
letter to Thomas Jefferson

AND

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams

http://www.usna.edu/History/honors/2003/SchwartzThesis.doc
{37} John Adams, Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 13 September 1816, in Lester
J. Cappon, ed., The Adams-Jefferson Letters (Chapel Hill: University of
North Caroline Press, 1959), vol. 2, 487-488. Adams is writing a letter
responding to Jefferson’s question "What are the uses of grief?" Adams
asks, "What have been the Abuses of grief?" Adams then goes down a list of
historical examples in which a death of a great person has been used to some
type of wrongful end. His last example is that of the crucifixion of Jesus
Christ, which he considers to be history’s most abusive example.
--
Meme-complex \Meem kompleks\, n. The freedom to worship god his own way.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 05:31:59 AM
Senator Hillary 386sx <386sx@email.com> wrote:

:|nospam.net writes:
:|
:|> "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
:|> the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
:|> Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams,
:|> letter to Thomas Jefferson
:|>
:|> AND
:|>
:|> "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
:|> the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
:|> Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams
:|
:|http://www.usna.edu/History/honors/2003/SchwartzThesis.doc
:|
:|{37} John Adams, Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 13 September 1816, in Lester
:|J. Cappon, ed., The Adams-Jefferson Letters (Chapel Hill: University of
:|North Caroline Press, 1959), vol. 2, 487-488. Adams is writing a letter
:|responding to Jefferson’s question "What are the uses of grief?" Adams
:|asks, "What have been the Abuses of grief?" Adams then goes down a list of
:|historical examples in which a death of a great person has been used to some
:|type of wrongful end. His last example is that of the crucifixion of Jesus
:|Christ, which he considers to be history’s most abusive example.

Thank you, The only error is it is September 90, 1816 instead of September
13, 1816.
I have the book but the index didn't list any of the words in the quote. I
also have the religious statements made by Jefferson which included the
correspondence back and forth between Jefferson and Adams on a CD but a
word search of the CD didn't turn up this quote. Gonna have to go back and
see if someone left the quote out when they made the CD or not.
Again, thanks
.
User: "386sx"

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 05:43:09 AM
writes:

Thank you, The only error is it is September 90, 1816

September 3, 1816.

instead of September 13, 1816.

I have the book but the index didn't list any of the words in the quote. I
also have the religious statements made by Jefferson which included the
correspondence back and forth between Jefferson and Adams on a CD but a
word search of the CD didn't turn up this quote. Gonna have to go back and
see if someone left the quote out when they made the CD or not.

See Message-ID: <m2smiwlzfxXx386xX.fsf@jms.localhost.localnet>

Again, thanks

A pleasure!
--
Meme-complex \Meem kompleks\, n. The freedom to worship god his way.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 07:39:43 AM
386sx <386sx@email.com> wrote:

:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net writes:
:|
:|> Thank you, The only error is it is September 90, 1816
:|
:|September 3, 1816.

Yes 3rd not the 90th (grin)

:|
:|> instead of September 13, 1816.
:|>
:|> I have the book but the index didn't list any of the words in the quote. I
:|> also have the religious statements made by Jefferson which included the
:|> correspondence back and forth between Jefferson and Adams on a CD but a
:|> word search of the CD didn't turn up this quote. Gonna have to go back and
:|> see if someone left the quote out when they made the CD or not.
:|
:|See Message-ID: <m2smiwlzfxXx386xX.fsf@jms.localhost.localnet>
:|
:|> Again, thanks
:|
:|A pleasure!

.


User: "Carol Lee Smith"

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 04:17:06 PM
On Sun, 4 Jan 2004
wrote:

Thank you, The only error is it is September 90, 1816 instead of September
13, 1816.

Dating systems were different back then.
;-)
.
User: ""

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 05 Jan 2004 04:26:56 AM
Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

:|On Sun, 4 Jan 2004

wrote:
:|
:|> Thank you, The only error is it is September 90, 1816 instead of September
:|> 13, 1816.
:|
:|Dating systems were different back then.
:|
:|;-)

Bah humbug, it was in code, sheesh I gotta tell ya everthing LOL
.



User: "Bob LeChevalier"

Title: Re: PROPER CITE, ANYBODY? 04 Jan 2004 02:14:36 PM
Senator Hillary 386sx <386sx@email.com> wrote:

nospam.net writes:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams,
letter to Thomas Jefferson

AND

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams


http://www.usna.edu/History/honors/2003/SchwartzThesis.doc

{37} John Adams, Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 13 September 1816, in Lester
J. Cappon, ed., The Adams-Jefferson Letters (Chapel Hill: University of
North Caroline Press, 1959), vol. 2, 487-488.

September 3 is the date on the manuscript letter.

Adams is writing a letter
responding to Jefferson’s question "What are the uses of grief?" Adams
asks, "What have been the Abuses of grief?" Adams then goes down a list of
historical examples in which a death of a great person has been used to some
type of wrongful end. His last example is that of the crucifixion of Jesus
Christ, which he considers to be history’s most abusive example.

Agreed.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.



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