Religions > Atheism > Prophecy Is Not Predestination: Prophetic Outcomes May Be Changed
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Aaron Kim" |
| Date: |
26 Nov 2007 12:20:31 AM |
| Object: |
Prophecy Is Not Predestination: Prophetic Outcomes May Be Changed |
Prophecy Is Not Predestination: Prophetic Outcomes May Be Changed
excerpt from "Thus Saith the Lord" by Duane Crowther
Several misunderstandings have been observed which should be commented upon
in this setting.
One such misunderstanding is the erroneous belief that prophecy is a type of
predestination, which
inalterably fixes the course of future events.
Prophecy is not predestination. It does not govern what will come to pass.
The scriptures teach
that when conditions pertinent to the prophesied situation change, the
outcome of prophecy may also
change. Revealed prophecy pre-states the manner God will later manifest His
will. If God chooses to
alter His intentions, He may reveal new prophecy to His spokesmen indicating
different outcomes to
earth events. An understanding of this principle is basic to man's
understanding of many of the
manifestations of God.
Many examples of this principle from the scriptures can be cited. One
instance is the extension of life
granted to Hezekiah, a righteous king of Judah. At one time during his
reign, the king became ill. The
word of the Lord concerning his fate was revealed through the prophet
Isaiah:
In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son
of Amoz came unto
him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order: for
thou shalt die, and not
live. 33
But Hezekiah was a righteous man who knew how to prevail with God. He
pleaded with the Lord for the
privilege of a longer sojourn upon the earth:
Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the Lord,
And said, Remember now 0 Lord, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee
in truth and
with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And
Hezekiah wept sore."34
God heard Hezekiah's prayer and had compassion upon him. He changed his
decision that Hezekiah was
to die at that time, but He didn't just extend he king's life without
revealing His new decision through
His prophet:
Then came the word of the Lord to Isaiah, saying,
Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I
have heard thy
prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen
years.
And I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of
Assyria: and I will defend this
city.
And this shall be a sign unto thee from the Lord, that the Lord will do this
that he hath spoken;
Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in
the sun dial of Ahaz,
ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it
was gone down."35
Another example of new, altered prophecy being revealed is the account of
Ahab, a wicked king of
Israel. Ahab caused Naboth to be slain in order to obtain a vineyard which
Naboth owned. Because of
the king's wickedness, the Lord sent Elijah to make this prophecy to Ahab:
Thus saith the Lord, Has thou killed, and also taken possession? And thou
shalt speak unto him,
saying, Thus saith the Lord, In the place where dogs licked the blood of
Naboth shall dogs lick thy
blood, even thine.
And Ahab said to Elijah, Hast thou found me, 0 mine enemy? And he answered,
I have found
thee: because thou hast sold thyself to work evil in the sight of the Lord.
Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, .. .
.... for the provocation wherewith thou hast provoked me to anger, and made
Israel to sin. 36
Yet the scripture records the repentance of Ahab, which altered the
condition upon which the prophecy
was based. Because of Ahab's penitence, the will of the Lord changed. A new
prophecy was revealed
through Elijah, in which God's retribution was postponed:
And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes,
and put
sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.
And the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,
Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? Because he humbleth himself
before
me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I
bring the evil upon his
house."37
Another example of new prophecy being revealed because of changing
conditions is found early in the
history of the nation of Judah, when Rehoboam and his people were under
attack by Shishak, king of
Egypt. A prophetic warning was spoken against the princes of Judah by the
prophet Shemaiah, who
warned, "Thus saith the Lord, Ye have forsaken me, and therefore have I also
left you in the
hand of Shishak. "38 But then the condition changed. "The princes of Israel
and the king humbled
themselves; and they said, The Lord is righteous."39 With their repentance,
the Lord chose to lighten
His judgment upon them. A new prophecy was revealed through His prophet:
When the Lord saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the Lord came to
Shemaiah,
'saying, They have humbled themselves; therefore I will not destroy them,
but I will grant them
some deliverance; and my wrath shall not be poured out upon Jerusalem by the
hand of Shishak.
Nevertheless they shall be his servants; that they may know my service, and
the service of the
kingdoms of the countries.40
In yet another situation which exemplifies this principle of altered
prophecy, a conditional
warning was spoken by a man of God to King Amaziah during his rule in
Jerusalem. The king was told
that he would die in a contemplated battle against the Edomites if he used
the 100,000 mercenaries he
had hired from Israel:
There came a man of God to him, saying, 0 king, let not the army of Israel
go with thee; for the
Lord is not with Israel, to wit, with all the children of Ephraim.
But if thou wilt go, do it, be strong for the battle: God shall make thee
fall before the enemy:
for God hath power to help, and to cast down."41
Amaziah took heed to the prophecy and sent the mercenaries away.
Consequently, in the battle his life
was spared and he was able to conquer the Edomites (the children of Seir).42
Another example of a prophetic outcome being altered is found in the account
of the prophet Jonah, who cried a warning of impending destruction against
the people of the Assyrian city of Nineveh:
The word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto
Nineveh, that great
city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord.
Now Nineveh was
an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried and
said, Yet forty days,
and Nineveh shall be overthrown."43
But the people of Nineveh repented in sackcloth and ashes,44 "and God saw
their works, that they
turned from their evil way;" and God repented of the evil that he had said
that he would do
unto them; and he did it not."45 Because of all the tribulation Jonah had
suffered before delivering
his warning message, "it displeased Jonah exceedingly" that God changed His
will, yet the prophet had no choice but to accept the new revelation that
came to him .46
Twice God revealed to the prophet Amos judgments He had determined to bring
against Israel, yet
the pleadings of that prophet were sufficient to alter the conditions and
prevent the curse from coming
upon his people. Instead of the judgment, God revealed His promise not to
send it:
Thus saith the Lord God she wed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers
in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was
the latter growth after the king's mowings.
And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of
the land, then I said, 0 Lord God, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall
Jacob arise? for he is small.
The Lord repented for this: It shall not be, saith the Lord.
Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord God called to
contend by fire,
and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part.
Then said I, 0 Lord God, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise?
for he is small.
The Lord repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord God."47
Similar examples are found in latter-day scripture. For instance, the Lord
revealed His will that the
saints should gather to Zion, the New Jerusalem, in numerous revelations
through His prophets.48 Yet
the saints were not willing to support the gathering process fully. Less
than half the number specified
by the Lord, for example, were willing to participate in Zion's Camp."49
Some members of the Church,
within Zion's Camp and elsewhere, fell into transgression; others refused to
contribute their funds for
the upbuilding of Zion. The conditions changed. The Lord, altering His will
because of the attitudes of
the Church members, revealed a new policy through the prophet Joseph Smith:
Verily I say unto you who have assembled yourselves together that you may
learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people
Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people,
speaking concerning the
church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I
required at their hands, but
are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as
becometh saints, to the poor and
afflicted among them;
And are not united according to the union required by the law of the
celestial kingdom;
And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the
celestial kingdom;
otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must
needs be, by the
things which they suffer.
I speak not concerning those who are appointed to lead my people, who are
the first elders of my
church, for they are not all under this condemnation;
But I speak concerning my churches abroad-there are many who will say: Where
is their God?
Behold, he will deliver them in time of trouble, otherwise we will not go up
unto Zion, and will keep our
moneys.
Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is
expedient in me that mine elders
should wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion-"
And still the saints wait, for the Lord desires that the Church as a people
"may be prepared, and that
my people may be taught more perfectly, and have experience, and know more
perfectly concerning
their duty, and the things which I require at their hands."51
When the Lord reveals through His prophets that which will come to pass, it
is not absolute, it is not
unalterable, it does not govern the future. If conditions change, God, in
His justice and mercy, will
alter the events He brings to pass. Man, in his wickedness, may forfeit
promised blessings, but it is man
upon whom the responsibility must rest. As the Master revealed,
Who am I, saith the Lord, that have promised and have not fulfilled? I
command and men obey
not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing.
Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his
promises are not fulfilled.
But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above. 52
His is the pledge that "I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say: but
when ye do not what
I say, ye have no promise."53
Thus a pattern is established. A prophecy may be given which foretells
future events. It may reach
far into the future and deal with events completely foreign to the era in
which it was spoken, yet it will
describe or imply a condition and foresee the results of that condition.
However, if when the time of
fulfillment draws near, those involved alter the condition through
wickedness, repentance, or other
pertinent action, God may exercise His power and change the outcome. If the
outcome is to be different
from that foretold by His prophets, He will reveal new prophecy to his
servants which will set forth the
altered course of events.
Two further comments should be made in connection with this principle.
First, there may be some
instances where God has revealed to his prophets a change in His
previously-prophesied program, yet
the change has not been recorded or a knowledge of it made available to
mankind. Such a situation,
obviously, can be a cause for confusion and doubt. In instances of this
kind, the saints are left with
incomplete evidence, and it becomes impossible to fully understand the
situation at hand unless further
revelation is made known to them. However, it is fortunate that there have
been few times in either
scriptural history or the history of the Church where such a problem has
occurred.
Second, it should also be noted that scriptural evidence of prophecies being
altered is very limited.
The evidence indicates that prophetic alteration has taken place
occasionally, but the weight of evidence
clearly shows that such happenings are comparatively rare. There are but few
times when the future
course previously outlined by prophecy has been changed. Such instances are
not indications of
indecision on the part of God. Instead, they usually are examples of God's
mercy and love, in situations
where wicked men have repented or righteous men have sought special favors
from Him.
Footnotes:
32. For those who might desire further examples, a detailed analysis of the
prophecies recorded in the
Old Testament beginning with the examples, a detailed analysis of the
prophecies recorded in the Old
Testaqment beginning with the ear of the divided kingdoms is found in the
author's book, Prophets and
Prophecies of the Old Testament (Bountiful, Utah: Horizon Publishers &
Distributors). Chapter VI , "The
Early Prophets and THeir Messages,"examines the messages of numerous
prophets over a 200-year
span. In it is repeatedly documented a series of insights concerning the
nature of prophecy which is
later summarized as follows:
A. God reveals the future to His prophets.
B. Prophecy is specific and accurate
C. Prophecy is literally fulfilled.
D. God warns His prophets of approaching challenges and dangers.
E. God directs people, through His prophets, as to how they should conduct
their lives.
F. God rules the destiny of nations.
G. God will not allow men to disturb His plans.
H. When situations change, the outcome of prophecy may change.
I. When God changes a prophetic outcome, He reveals the change to His
prophet.
J. Man can avert or soften a prophecy of the Lord's punishment against him
by truly repenting and
manifesting humility.
K. A prophet can forsee events hundreds of years into the future, and in
differing national situations.
L. God often shows the truthfulness of a prophecy by giving a sign which
receives immediate fulfillment.
M. A prophet can call upon the powers of God to smite and curse his enemies.
N. A prophet can call
upon the powers of God to heal and remove curses. O. God demands that His
prophets be treated with
reverence and respect. P. God can use a man as a prophet even though the man
is not free from sin. Q.
God demands strict obedience from His prophets.
R. Man should test the prophets and their prophecies by the spirit of
discernment.
S. Revelation serves for commendation as well as reproof.
T. Man's life is not predestined. Man himself determines his fate by
establishing in the present a causeand-
effect relationship with the future. Prophecy merely pre-states what the
ultimate effect of present
actions will be. U. God often uses many prophets at the same time.
V. A calling as a prophet did not necessarily require that the person with
this calling stand at the head
of the Church.
W.God gives His prophets control over nature to further His work.
X.God protects his prophets and supplies their needs.
Y.Prophets have the power to perform miracles.
Z.Some miracles are performed by the powers already vested in the prophet.
For other Miracles he must call upon God. AA. Miracles are often used to
establish the divinity of
Jehovah and the authority of His prophets. BB. On special occasions God
gives His servants strength
beyond the normal limits of endurance. CC. Many miracles are designed for
the convenience of God's
servants. DD. Some servants of God are transferred from this earth to
another. They become translated
beings. EE. Prophets have the power to discern the thoughts and deeds of
others. FF. At times people
perform specific actions to intentionally fulfill prophecies. GG. The Bible
does not record the fulfillment
of some prophecies. This does not, however, make them untrue. HH. At times
prophets must suffer
martyrdom for their testimony. II. Women can also speak the Lord's will, as
prophetesses.
33. Is. 38:1. The full account is also given in II Ki. 20:1-11.
34. Is. 38:2-3.
35. Is. 38:4-8. Note that a sign was given with the prophecy. This is a
common occurrence. While men
are expressly cautioned not to seek after signs (see, for example, D&C 46:9;
63:7-12; Mt. 12:38-39,
etc.), signs are often given by the Lord in connection with prophecies.
L, connection-with-Prophecies. (See Is. 38.7_8;--Jud. 6:17-21,-36-40., 1
Sam. 2:34;14:10; 1 Ki. 13:3-
5; Is. 37:30; 7:11-16; 19:19-20; 55:13; Jer. 44:29; Lk. 2:12, etc.)
36. I Ki. 21:9-22.
37. I Ki. 21:27-29. For the fulfillment of the prophecy on Ahab's wicked
son,
Joram, see II Ki. 9:22-10:11. -
38. II Chron. 12:5_ ._
39. II Chron. 12:6.
40. II Chron. 12:7-8. Verses 9-12 tell the fulfillment of the latter
prophecy.
41. II Chron. 25:7-8.
42. See II Chron. 25:9-12.
43. Jon. 3:1-4.
44. Jon. 3:5-9.
45. Jon. 3:10. In the Inspired Version, this verse reads, "And God saw their
works that they-turned
from their evil way and repented; and.God turned away-the evil that he had
said he would bring upon
them."
46. See Jon 4-11.
47. Amos 7:1-6. See also Ex. 32:9-14; Gen. 18:20-33.
48. See, for example. D&C 45:64-66; 57:1-9; 66:11; etc.
49. The call was for 500 men; they eventually marched with 205. See D&C
103:30-36; HC 2:87-88;
also D&C 105:16-17.
50. D&C 105:1-9. 51. D&C 105:10.
52. D&CS8:3.143.
53. D&C 82:10. See also D&C 132:5; 130:20-21; 82:3.
--
Rescuing liberal pagans from the reprobate mind. Romans 1:29.
www.artbulla.com
Our Blog: http://www.artbulla.com/zion/blog/rjc.html
Listen to Zion Redemption Radio hosted by Art Bulla and Aaron Kim on Sunday
from 3 to 4 (pst) (normal time). Just go to
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/hostpage.aspx?host_id=3513 All are invited to
call in live at (718) 664-9754, email at art@artbulla.com, or by MSM
artbulla@hotmail.com. This show is dedicated to the redemption of Zion,
revelations of Jesus Christ, authority, Priesthood, Kingdom of God, doctrine
discussed pertaining to the salvation of Ephraim and Manasseh. During non
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26 Even so, come unto me and learn of my ways, and I will give unto you,
even as many as shall come, that peace which surpasseth understanding, and
if ye shall inquire of me concerning these things, will I the Lord manifest
by the influence and power of the Holy Ghost that these things are verily
true and are of me, saith the Lord.
Revelations of Jesus Christ sec. 6:26
The Kingdom of God or Nothing
Aaron Kim
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| User: "Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian" |
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| Title: Re: Prophecy Is Not Predestination: Prophetic Outcomes May Be Changed |
26 Nov 2007 11:18:44 AM |
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Also known as "Oops, my supreme sadist just fucked up royally. Again."
Thanks for the admission.
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Prophecy Is Not Predestination: Prophetic Outcomes May BeChanged |
26 Nov 2007 10:31:55 AM |
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On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:20:31 -0800, Aaron Kim wrote:
Prophecy Is Not Predestination: Prophetic Outcomes May Be Changed
Yuh huh. That's called, "the prophecy was wrong".
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Behold the foul stench of Skeletor's breakfast burrito!"
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Prophecy Is Not Predestination: Prophetic Outcomes May Be Changed |
26 Nov 2007 11:00:17 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:5NWdnXYmAMpmadfanZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@giganews.com...
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:20:31 -0800, Aaron Kim wrote:
Prophecy Is Not Predestination: Prophetic Outcomes May Be Changed
Yuh huh. That's called, "the prophecy was wrong".
Yup. "God makes a boo-boo." is another accurate description.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http//www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Prophecy Is Not Predestination: Prophetic Outcomes May Be Changed |
26 Nov 2007 05:24:38 PM |
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:00:17 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:5NWdnXYmAMpmadfanZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@giganews.com...
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:20:31 -0800, Aaron Kim wrote:
Prophecy Is Not Predestination: Prophetic Outcomes May Be Changed
Yuh huh. That's called, "the prophecy was wrong".
Yup. "God makes a boo-boo." is another accurate description.
"Prophet is a dangerous raving nutter" is an even more accurate
description.
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