| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
29 Nov 2007 03:44:22 AM |
| Object: |
Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2007_07_15_archive.html#8791230360285898021
The Church in Europe
No, that's not an oxymoron. This article from the July 14, 2007 Wall
Street Journal tells us that after decades of decline, Christianity
seems to be making a modest comeback:
Late last year, a Swedish hotel guest named Stefan Jansson grew
upset when he found a Bible in his room. He fired off an email to the
hotel chain, saying the presence of the Christian scriptures was
"boring and stupefying." This spring, the Scandic chain, Scandinavia's
biggest, ordered the New Testaments removed.
In a country where barely 3% of the population goes to church each
week, the affair seemed just another step in Christian Europe's long
march toward secularism. Then something odd happened: A national furor
erupted. A conservative bishop announced a boycott. A leftist radical
who became a devout Christian and talk-show host denounced the
biblical purge in newspaper columns and on television. A young
evangelical Christian organized an electronic letter-writing campaign,
asking Scandic: Why are you removing Bibles but not pay-porn on your
TVs?
Scandic, which had started keeping its Bibles behind the front
desk, put the New Testament back in guest rooms.
"Sweden is not as secular as we thought," says Christer Sturmark,
head of Sweden's Humanist Association, a noisy assembly of
nonbelievers to which the Bible-protesting hotel guest belongs.
After decades of secularization, religion in Europe has slowed its
slide toward what had seemed inevitable oblivion. There are even
nascent signs of a modest comeback. Most church pews are still empty.
But belief in heaven, hell and concepts such as the soul has risen in
parts of Europe, especially among the young, according to surveys.
Religion, once a dead issue, now figures prominently in public
discourse.
God's tentative return to Europe has scholars and theologians
debating a hot question: Why? Part of the reason, pretty much everyone
agrees, is an influx of devout immigrants. Christian and Muslim
newcomers have revived questions relating to faith that Europe thought
it had banished with the 18th-century Enlightenment. At the same time,
anxiety over immigration, globalization and cutbacks to social-welfare
systems has eroded people's contentment in the here-and-now, prodding
some to seek firmer ground in the spiritual.
The rest of the article suggests that the ending of state
establishments of religion might have something to do with it--which
is consistent with an emerging view among historians of Colonial
America that the dramatic increase in church membership after the
Revolution might have been provoked by the disestablishment of the
Anglican Church.
As it happens, I'm reading a very interesting book at the moment by
Rodney Stark, a sociology professor at the University of Washington:
The Rise of Christianity: How the Obscure, Marginal Jesus Movement
Became the Dominant Religious Force in the Western World in a Few
Centuries (Harper San Francisco, 1997). Stark argues that the
traditional view--that Constantine's making Christianity the official
state religion is what caused the Roman Empire to turn Christian--is
backward. He points to data that suggests that Constantine made
Christianity the state religion because Christians had become a
dominant force within the Roman Empire. Why? Because demographics is
destiny.
Stark uses traditional sociological statistical methods and some very
clever use of both data from the classical period, and such things as
archaeological counts of churches in various Roman cities, to argue
that Christianity grew at a rate comparable to the rise of Mormonism
in modern America (about 43% per decade). I'm not sure what the
reaction of sociologists was to his clever use of data from a period
when demographic data in the modern sense really doesn't exist. Did
they react with disgust? Or were they impressed that he managed to
find anything to work with at all, like Mark Twain's comment about a
dog walking on its hind legs? It didn't do it very well, but that it
did it at all was rather impressive.
Stark argues that there were several reasons for this dramatic
increase, and there's no need to look for any miraculous explanations.
In brief (and not doing justice to how Stark uses the data, as well as
primary and secondary sources):
1. Early Christians, because they utterly rejected infanticide,
abortion, birth control, and non-vaginal intercourse, had
extraordinary birth rates--and eventually outreproduced the pagans.
(The parallels to today, where conservatives are outreproducing
liberals in America, and Muslims are outreproducing non-Muslim Europe--
should be obvious.)
* Roman fathers had the right to leave any deformed or weak male
child--and any female--in the wild to die. Females were effectively
worthless, and as a result, adult males outnumbered adult females by
an extraordinary margin.
* Abortion was widespread in the Roman Empire (often at the
insistence of the husband or father of the pregnant woman), and
frequently led to death or sterility.
* Roman birth control, while not spectacularly effective, did
exist.
* The selfishness of pagan society, as well as the widespread use
of anal and oral sex--and of male prostitutes--meant that much of the
reproductive potential of Roman society was not being used to produce
children.
All of these factors meant that Christians were reproducing like
rabbits, while the pagan part of the Empire was actually declining in
population at the time that Christianity appeared.
2. While it may shock a lot of feminists, Christianity attracted women
in very large numbers because of the dramatically higher status that
they held relative to both the pagan Romans, and the Jews. One little
horrifying example of the difference--and how it played a part in
probably increasing Christian birth rates, and the willingness of
Christian women to get pregnant: marriages between adult Roman men and
little girls (under the age of puberty) were not simply contracted,
but consummated--with often significant physical damage to the girls.
By comparison, Christians delayed marriage until about 18. Considering
that puberty probably came later in classical times than today
(because of nutritional deficiencies), this meant that Christian women
were less likely to be damaged by sexual intercourse, and less likely
to be traumatized by it as well.
3. Because Christianity gave women a higher status, it attracted them
in large numbers--and it would appear that a fair number of pagan
Romans became Christians because of their wives.
I haven't finished reading the book, and there's quite a bit there
that I haven't summarized. I wouldn't exactly call it a popular read,
but for a book with tables of Pearson Products, it's not bad.
Let me emphasize that while I am an historian, I really can't tell you
how reliable Stark's history or sociological analysis is. I don't see
anything obviously wrong, but this is way outside my period. As my
Ancient Middle East professor once put it, "Everything after the fall
of Rome to me is current events."
UPDATE: A reader points me to this article about how Roman use of a
relatively rare plant as an abortifacient (a drug that induces
abortion) eventually drove the plant into extinction! And just because
it's "natural" doesn't make it safe. When I lived in the Bay Area,
Marin County's hopelessly New Age crowd was using a variety of similar
drugs as "natural" ways to induce abortions--with occasional deaths
and often quite severe health consequences.
Labels: abortion, religion
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
29 Nov 2007 04:51:09 PM |
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On Nov 29, 4:44 am, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@hotpop.com>
wrote:
snip
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=jansson+sweeden+bibles+hotels&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn
No hits.
Let's try Yahoo.
http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search;_ylt=A0WTTkrpQE9HZtwAAgKy87UF;_ylu=X3oDMTBhNjRqazhxBHNlYwNzZWFyY2g-?fr=sfp&ei=UTF-8&p=jansson+sweden+bibles+hotels
No hits.
Let's try Reuters.
http://search.us.reuters.com/rsearch/rcomSearch.do?blob=jansson%20sweden%20bibles%20hotels&WTmodLoc=ussrch-top-quote
No hits.
Maybe I'm spelling Sweden wrong.
http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Frontpage.aspx?id=1898
Hmm. Maybe not.
Let's try the AP.
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=APAB&p_theme=apab&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&s_dispstring=jansson%20sweden%20bible%20hotels&p_field_advanced-0=&p_text_advanced-0=("jansson%20sweden%20bible%20hotels")&xcal_numdocs=20&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
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| User: "tim \not at home" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 04:51:59 PM |
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<panamfloyd@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:966e4072-4c76-47a1-bc4c-8b3ee714da0b@e1g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 29, 4:44 am, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@hotpop.com>
wrote:
useweights=no
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
I suggest that the most trustable account (in English) is here:
http://www.thelocal.se/7186/20070503/
HTH
tim
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| User: "Curly Surmudgeon" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 05:19:54 PM |
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On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:51:59 +0100, tim (not at home) wrote:
<panamfloyd@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:966e4072-4c76-47a1-bc4c-8b3ee714da0b@e1g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 29, 4:44 am, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@hotpop.com>
wrote:
useweights=no
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
I suggest that the most trustable account (in English) is here:
http://www.thelocal.se/7186/20070503/
HTH
tim
People who expect truth from the church or its believers are uniformly
ignorant and trusting. Experience will pop that bubble, hopefully before
they come to harm.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://thegreen.stanleylieber.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Bert Hyman" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
29 Nov 2007 06:41:08 PM |
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In news:966e4072-4c76-47a1-bc4c-8b3ee714da0b@e1g2000hsh.googlegroups.com
panamfloyd@hotmail.com wrote:
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
In Europe, God Is (Not) Dead
Christian groups are growing, faith is more public.
Is supply-side economics the explanation?
By ANDREW HIGGINS
July 14, 2007
Stockholm
Late last year, a Swedish hotel guest named Stefan Jansson grew
upset when he found a Bible in his room.
Looks like your search skills need some tuning.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
29 Nov 2007 10:48:58 PM |
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Bert Hyman <> wrote in message
news:Xns99F7BE26B3FA0VeebleFetzer@216.250.184.7...
In news:966e4072-4c76-47a1-bc4c-8b3ee714da0b@e1g2000hsh.googlegroups.com
panamfloyd@hotmail.com wrote:
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
In Europe, God Is (Not) Dead
Christian groups are growing, faith is more public.
Is supply-side economics the explanation?
By ANDREW HIGGINS
July 14, 2007
Stockholm
Late last year, a Swedish hotel guest named Stefan Jansson grew
upset when he found a Bible in his room.
Looks like your search skills need some tuning.
Well, I went looking, and all I can find is four links to...... this single
source, the WSJ article. Which is a bit odd, as one would expect to find one
or two local language sources, Sweden does have online versions of it's
quite active newspaper sector. But none at all?
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN
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| User: "Craig Welch" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
29 Nov 2007 11:20:50 PM |
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"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> said:
Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99F7BE26B3FA0VeebleFetzer@216.250.184.7...
In news:966e4072-4c76-47a1-bc4c-8b3ee714da0b@e1g2000hsh.googlegroups.com
panamfloyd@hotmail.com wrote:
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
In Europe, God Is (Not) Dead
Christian groups are growing, faith is more public.
Is supply-side economics the explanation?
By ANDREW HIGGINS
July 14, 2007
Stockholm
Late last year, a Swedish hotel guest named Stefan Jansson grew
upset when he found a Bible in his room.
Looks like your search skills need some tuning.
Well, I went looking, and all I can find is four links to...... this single
source, the WSJ article. Which is a bit odd, as one would expect to find one
or two local language sources, Sweden does have online versions of it's
quite active newspaper sector. But none at all?
I really do wonder whether some of the contributors to this thread
should be allowed Internet access without their parents'
supervision.
http://tinyurl.com/2bhepg
--
Craig http://www.wazu.jp/
1,239 Unicode fonts for 82 written language groups:
Price your own web plan: http://www.wazu.jp/hosting/
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 10:03:43 AM |
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Craig Welch <craig@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
news:j97vk3dfvmesi260u3jisrhsrmkug8hbkl@4ax.com...
"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> said:
Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99F7BE26B3FA0VeebleFetzer@216.250.184.7...
In
news:966e4072-4c76-47a1-bc4c-8b3ee714da0b@e1g2000hsh.googlegroups.com
panamfloyd@hotmail.com wrote:
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
In Europe, God Is (Not) Dead
Christian groups are growing, faith is more public.
Is supply-side economics the explanation?
By ANDREW HIGGINS
July 14, 2007
Stockholm
Late last year, a Swedish hotel guest named Stefan Jansson grew
upset when he found a Bible in his room.
Looks like your search skills need some tuning.
Well, I went looking, and all I can find is four links to...... this
single
source, the WSJ article. Which is a bit odd, as one would expect to find
one
or two local language sources, Sweden does have online versions of it's
quite active newspaper sector. But none at all?
I really do wonder whether some of the contributors to this thread
should be allowed Internet access without their parents'
supervision.
http://tinyurl.com/2bhepg
Thank-you for the link. As for your additional commentary, when a search
using the key-words 'Stefan Jansson Sweden Hotels Bibles' fails to turn up
any more than the links I mentioned, I would suggest that perhaps it is the
search engines at fault. Still, if it helps your self-esteem to feel smug
and clever, who cares anyway?
--
Craig http://www.wazu.jp/
1,239 Unicode fonts for 82 written language groups:
Price your own web plan: http://www.wazu.jp/hosting/
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| User: "Bert Hyman" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 10:08:03 AM |
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briquenoir@freeuk.c0m (brique) wrote in
news:1196438667.1472.0@proxy00.news.clara.net:
As for your additional commentary, when a search
using the key-words 'Stefan Jansson Sweden Hotels Bibles' fails to
turn up any more than the links I mentioned, I would suggest that
perhaps it is the search engines at fault.
Simply remove the name of the single person mentioned in the WSJ
article and you'll get about 82,000 hits this morning.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
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| User: "=?Windows-1252?Q?Markku_Gr=F6nroos?=" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 10:20:07 AM |
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"Bert Hyman" <bert@iphouse.com> kirjoitti
viestiss:Xns99F8671A5B2C3VeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
briquenoir@freeuk.c0m (brique) wrote in
news:1196438667.1472.0@proxy00.news.clara.net:
As for your additional commentary, when a search
Perhaps you homosexual get lost from scn
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 10:15:17 PM |
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Bert Hyman <> wrote in message
news:Xns99F8671A5B2C3VeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
briquenoir@freeuk.c0m (brique) wrote in
news:1196438667.1472.0@proxy00.news.clara.net:
As for your additional commentary, when a search
using the key-words 'Stefan Jansson Sweden Hotels Bibles' fails to
turn up any more than the links I mentioned, I would suggest that
perhaps it is the search engines at fault.
Simply remove the name of the single person mentioned in the WSJ
article and you'll get about 82,000 hits this morning.
Then next time I will search three days later.......... and get probably
80,000 hits all about searching for the search,,,,,,,,
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 09:51:14 AM |
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On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:20:50 +0000, Craig Welch wrote:
"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> said:
Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99F7BE26B3FA0VeebleFetzer@216.250.184.7...
In
news:966e4072-4c76-47a1-bc4c-8b3ee714da0b@e1g2000hsh.googlegroups.com
panamfloyd@hotmail.com wrote:
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
In Europe, God Is (Not) Dead
Christian groups are growing, faith is more public. Is
supply-side economics the explanation? By ANDREW HIGGINS
July 14, 2007
Stockholm
Late last year, a Swedish hotel guest named Stefan Jansson
grew upset when he found a Bible in his room.
Looks like your search skills need some tuning.
Well, I went looking, and all I can find is four links to...... this
single source, the WSJ article. Which is a bit odd, as one would expect
to find one or two local language sources, Sweden does have online
versions of it's quite active newspaper sector. But none at all?
I really do wonder whether some of the contributors to this thread
should be allowed Internet access without their parents' supervision.
http://tinyurl.com/2bhepg
Funny, that article says essentially nothing is going on either way.
"Scandic's decision has not generated any debate on the general idea of
placing copies of The Bible in hotel rooms."
So where's all this "public outrage" and stuff?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Warned you we tried! Listen you did not! Now screwed
we will all be!"
http://www.sequentialpictures.com/moviestarwarsepisode3.html
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| User: "Bert Hyman" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 09:59:00 AM |
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gmail@com.mkbilbo (Mark K. Bilbo) wrote in
news:mL-dnfcPJJPvrM3anZ2dnUVZ_sLinZ2d@giganews.com:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:20:50 +0000, Craig Welch wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/2bhepg
Funny, that article says essentially nothing is going on either
way.
"Scandic's decision has not generated any debate on the general
idea of placing copies of The Bible in hotel rooms."
In Finland.
So where's all this "public outrage" and stuff?
In Sweden. Last summer.
http://www.forward.com/articles/11240/
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/259266.htm
http://scandichotelbibles.blogspot.com/2007/04/must-remove-all-bibles-from-all-scandic.html
.... etc.
In California. Last spring.
http://www.hotelchatter.com/tag/Hotel%20Religion
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
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| User: "unglued" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
02 Dec 2007 12:20:32 PM |
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On 30 Nov, 16:59, Bert Hyman <> wrote:
gm...@com.mkbilbo (Mark K. Bilbo) wrote innews:mL-dnfcPJJPvrM3anZ2dnUVZ_sLinZ2d@giganews.com:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:20:50 +0000, Craig Welch wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/2bhepg
Funny, that article says essentially nothing is going on either
way.
"Scandic's decision has not generated any debate on the general
idea of placing copies of The Bible in hotel rooms."
In Finland.
So where's all this "public outrage" and stuff?
In Sweden. Last summer.
http://www.forward.com/articles/11240/http://atheism.about.com/b/a/259266.htmhttp://scandichotelbibles.blogspot.com/2007/04/must-remove-all-bibles...
... etc.
"Public outrage" conveys the impression of spontaneous and vociferous
discontent among the general population.
What actually occured was a religious fundamentalist group with
money,threatening to organise a boycott of the hotel chain unless the
bibles were put back again. The hotel chain, with nothing to win and
and possibly some money to lose, chose, in the normal Swedish non-
confrontational manner, to put the bibles back. End of story.
It doesn't really signify anything and passed under the public news
radar without a trace.
In California. Last spring.
http://www.hotelchatter.com/tag/Hotel%20Religion
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
29 Nov 2007 09:01:10 PM |
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On Nov 29, 7:41 pm, Bert Hyman <b...@iphouse.com> wrote:
Innews:966e4072-4c76-47a1-bc4c-8b3ee714da0b@e1g2000hsh.googlegroups.com
panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
In Europe, God Is (Not) Dead
Christian groups are growing, faith is more public.
Is supply-side economics the explanation?
By ANDREW HIGGINS
July 14, 2007
Stockholm
Late last year, a Swedish hotel guest named Stefan Jansson grew
upset when he found a Bible in his room.
Looks like your search skills need some tuning.
Please see my reply to "Brian", same thread.
-PF
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| User: "D K Palm" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
08 Dec 2007 07:23:59 AM |
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On 29 Nov, 23:51, wrote:
On Nov 29, 4:44 am, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@hotpop.com>
wrote:
snip
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=jansson+sweeden+bibles+hotels&um=...
No hits.
Let's try Yahoo.
http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search;_ylt=A0WTTkrpQE9HZtwAAgKy87U...
No hits.
Let's try Reuters.
http://search.us.reuters.com/rsearch/rcomSearch.do?blob=jansson%20swe...
No hits.
Maybe I'm spelling Sweden wrong.
http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Frontpage.aspx?id=1898
Hmm. Maybe not.
Let's try the AP.
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=APAB&p_theme=a...("jansson%20sweden%20bible%20hotels")&xcal_numdocs=20&p_perpage=10&p_sort=Y-MD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
I actually found an article in Swedish about it.
It was the Swedish Church that protested, and that is hardly an public
outcry, more of a pressure from an rather economically strong interest
group.
If a Bishop get miffed, who cares?
Seems like most of the Swedish bloggs on the subject think that the
bible on the room are rather intolerant.
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| User: "marika" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
08 Dec 2007 07:50:07 AM |
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"D K Palm" <dan_palm@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fb692718-1267-4b44-aa9c-86829f778706@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
I actually found an article in Swedish about it.
Mama opened the ukrainian newspaper today, and then asked me the inevitable.
I don't
know the right words.
It was the Swedish Church that protested, and that is hardly an public
outcry, more of a pressure from an rather economically strong interest
group.
If a Bishop get miffed, who cares?
I thought I might tell you a small story.
if a bishop gets miffed they are just like any other politician or business
man. they can influence many things
Seems like most of the Swedish bloggs on the subject think that the
bible on the room are rather intolerant.
How mom's cope with this I don't know.
mk5000
"John, you are having a bad day, aren't you? You really need your team and
Lorne to turn up, don't you?
And, thing is, you day ain't going to get any better once Rodney finds out
what your downfall was.
She just let him go? Well, that was lame. How truly anti-climatical. I'm
really so disappointed with that. Nothing she had done before hand suggested
that she'd let him go, so why did she?
So, she'll be coming back then. I'd love to see Rodney bring her down a peg
or two. Or Teyla to show her how to really kick *****. It won't happen, but I
can dream. "--http://ionaonie.livejournal.com/113858.html
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| User: "Brian" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
29 Nov 2007 06:33:19 PM |
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On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:51:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Nov 29, 4:44 am, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@hotpop.com>
wrote:
snip
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=jansson+sweeden+bibles+hotels&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn
No hits.
Let's try Yahoo.
http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search;_ylt=A0WTTkrpQE9HZtwAAgKy87UF;_ylu=X3oDMTBhNjRqazhxBHNlYwNzZWFyY2g-?fr=sfp&ei=UTF-8&p=jansson+sweden+bibles+hotels
No hits.
Let's try Reuters.
http://search.us.reuters.com/rsearch/rcomSearch.do?blob=jansson%20sweden%20bibles%20hotels&WTmodLoc=ussrch-top-quote
No hits.
Maybe I'm spelling Sweden wrong.
http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Frontpage.aspx?id=1898
Hmm. Maybe not.
Let's try the AP.
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=APAB&p_theme=apab&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&s_dispstring=jansson%20sweden%20bible%20hotels&p_field_advanced-0=&p_text_advanced-0=("jansson%20sweden%20bible%20hotels")&xcal_numdocs=20&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
Or you could just have clicked on the link provided which led here.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
Perhaps your denial is just another atheist lie.
I'm curious about your reply.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
29 Nov 2007 09:00:34 PM |
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On Nov 29, 7:33 pm, Brian <drmorrisnos...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:51:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Nov 29, 4:44 am, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@hotpop.com>
wrote:
snip
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=jansson+sweeden+bibles+hotels&um=...
No hits.
Let's try Yahoo.
http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search;_ylt=A0WTTkrpQE9HZtwAAgKy87U...
No hits.
Let's try Reuters.
http://search.us.reuters.com/rsearch/rcomSearch.do?blob=jansson%20swe...
No hits.
Maybe I'm spelling Sweden wrong.
http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Frontpage.aspx?id=1898
Hmm. Maybe not.
Let's try the AP.
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=APAB&p_theme=a...("jansson%20sweden%20bible%20hotels")&xcal_numdocs=20&p_perpage=10&p_sort=Y-MD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
Or you could just have clicked on the link provided which led here.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
Perhaps your denial is just another atheist lie.
I'm curious about your reply.
The Wall Street Journal was bought by Rupert Murdoch.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/31/AR2007073100896.html
The man who made his fortune by turning real newspapers into tabloids
and *invented* the opinion-driven "news" report.
http://www.outfoxed.org/
Trust him if you wish....
-PF
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| User: "Craig Welch" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
29 Nov 2007 09:59:19 PM |
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said:
On Nov 29, 7:33 pm, Brian <drmorrisnos...@comcast.net> wrote:
Or you could just have clicked on the link provided which led here.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
Perhaps your denial is just another atheist lie.
I'm curious about your reply.
The Wall Street Journal was bought by Rupert Murdoch.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/31/AR2007073100896.html
The man who made his fortune by turning real newspapers into tabloids
and *invented* the opinion-driven "news" report.
Same reporters.
Same editors.
Are you saying that because of a recent change of ownership, the
paper has less credibility?
Are you saying that because of a recent change of ownership, a given
article is a lie?
--
Craig http://www.wazu.jp/
1,239 Unicode fonts for 82 written language groups:
Price your own web plan: http://www.wazu.jp/hosting/
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 12:38:48 PM |
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On Nov 29, 10:59 pm, Craig Welch <cr...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
panamfl...@hotmail.com said:
On Nov 29, 7:33 pm, Brian <drmorrisnos...@comcast.net> wrote:
Or you could just have clicked on the link provided which led here.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
Perhaps your denial is just another atheist lie.
I'm curious about your reply.
The Wall Street Journal was bought by Rupert Murdoch.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/31/AR200...
The man who made his fortune by turning real newspapers into tabloids
and *invented* the opinion-driven "news" report.
Same reporters.
Same editors.
Same agenda: keeping their jobs.
I've witnessed firsthand what happens when a large media company
changes ownership. There are people here doing things they never
thought they'd do. Doing things they never wanted to do...because they
have morgages and car loan payments and children to feed. That's what
makes the change so insidious. All these good people, doing bad things
to each other while the buisiness school morons laugh.
Are you saying that because of a recent change of ownership, the
paper has less credibility?
Yes. Witness what has happened to CNN. Or UPI. Or the Washington
Times.
Are you saying that because of a recent change of ownership, a given
article is a lie?
Murdoch has made his fortune screwing stupid people out of their money
by appealing to their base instincts. The man has turned some of
England's major newspapers into shrieking harpies, complete with
"celebrity news" and topless girls on page three. He does not care
about accuracy, he has no sense of civic responsibility, and he does
not care that his "news" organization increases levels of ignorance
and causes civic debate to run caustic.
He just wants the money, and he will say or do anything in his papers
to get it. He knows American audiences LUV JEZUZ!, so it's time to
throw `em a bone.
Better change that subscription to The Economist if you plan on
getting out of the markets before the crash...
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 09:37:16 AM |
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On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:00:34 -0800, panamfloyd wrote:
On Nov 29, 7:33 pm, Brian <drmorrisnos...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:51:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Nov 29, 4:44 am, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@hotpop.com>
wrote:
snip
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=jansson+sweeden+bibles
+hotels&um=...
No hits.
Let's try Yahoo.
http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/
search;_ylt=A0WTTkrpQE9HZtwAAgKy87U...
No hits.
Let's try Reuters.
http://search.us.reuters.com/rsearch/rcomSearch.do?blob=jansson%
20swe...
No hits.
Maybe I'm spelling Sweden wrong.
http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Frontpage.aspx?id=1898
Hmm. Maybe not.
Let's try the AP.
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?
p_product=APAB&p_theme=a...("jansson%20sweden%20bible%20hotels")
&xcal_numdocs=20&p_perpage=10&p_sort=Y-MD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
Or you could just have clicked on the link provided which led here.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
Perhaps your denial is just another atheist lie.
I'm curious about your reply.
The Wall Street Journal was bought by Rupert Murdoch.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/31/
AR2007073100896.html
The man who made his fortune by turning real newspapers into tabloids
and *invented* the opinion-driven "news" report.
http://www.outfoxed.org/
Trust him if you wish....
Trust? Nah. But if you like a lotta soft porn, you just can't beat
Murdoch's Fox News Porn:
http://foxnewsporn.com/
Best bit, YouTube rates clips of Fox News as "18+ only":
http://foxattacks.com/blog/18907-youtube-you-must-be-at-least-18-to-view-
fox-news
And Digg bans Fox News clips:
http://foxattacks.com/blog/18900-fox-news-porn-is-too-hot-for-digg
Keep in mind, these are just compilations of actual, broadcast material
from Fox News...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
“To die for an idea; it is unquestionably noble.
But how much nobler it would be if men died for
ideas that were true!”
- H. L. Mencken
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 09:28:30 AM |
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On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:33:19 -0500, Brian wrote:
On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:51:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Nov 29, 4:44 am, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@hotpop.com>
wrote:
snip
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=jansson+sweeden+bibles
+hotels&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn
No hits.
Let's try Yahoo.
http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/
search;_ylt=A0WTTkrpQE9HZtwAAgKy87UF;_ylu=X3oDMTBhNjRqazhxBHNlYwNzZWFyY2g-?
fr=sfp&ei=UTF-8&p=jansson+sweden+bibles+hotels
No hits.
Let's try Reuters.
http://search.us.reuters.com/rsearch/rcomSearch.do?blob=jansson%20sweden
%20bibles%20hotels&WTmodLoc=ussrch-top-quote
No hits.
Maybe I'm spelling Sweden wrong.
http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Frontpage.aspx?id=1898
Hmm. Maybe not.
Let's try the AP.
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?
p_product=APAB&p_theme=apab&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&s_dispstring=jansson
%20sweden%20bible%20hotels&p_field_advanced-0=&p_text_advanced-0=("jansson
%20sweden%20bible%20hotels")
&xcal_numdocs=20&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no
No hits.
It would seem that this is simply another Christian lie.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
Or you could just have clicked on the link provided which led here.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118434936941966055.html
Perhaps your denial is just another atheist lie.
I'm curious about your reply.
Doofus, he's saying the guy who wrote the WSJ article is lying.
Get it?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
“The religious man, starting out with an outfit of
irrational postulates and untenable hopes, tries to
fit them into the facts of a harshly material world.
In the process he must do violence to both.”
- H. L. Mencken
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| User: "Brian" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 07:38:01 PM |
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On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:28:30 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
Doofus, he's saying the guy who wrote the WSJ article is lying.
Get it?
I get that you're so stupid that you can't even follow posts. I wrote
the reference to the WSJ first and then the paranoid reply came later.
Is that a simple enough explanation for you?
.
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| User: "Stein R" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 05:27:15 PM |
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Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trumpet@hotpop.com> wrote in
news:7a7fd141-4f40-43ff-a763-8dc90ff89aed@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2007_07_15_archive.html#
87912303602
85898021
The Church in Europe
No, that's not an oxymoron. This article from the July 14, 2007 Wall
Street Journal tells us that after decades of decline, Christianity
seems to be making a modest comeback:
Late last year, a Swedish hotel guest named Stefan Jansson grew
upset when he found a Bible in his room. He fired off an email to the
hotel chain, saying the presence of the Christian scriptures was
"boring and stupefying." This spring, the Scandic chain, Scandinavia's
biggest, ordered the New Testaments removed.
In a country where barely 3% of the population goes to church each
week, the affair seemed just another step in Christian Europe's long
march toward secularism. Then something odd happened: A national furor
erupted. A conservative bishop announced a boycott. A leftist radical
who became a devout Christian and talk-show host denounced the
biblical purge in newspaper columns and on television. A young
evangelical Christian organized an electronic letter-writing campaign,
asking Scandic: Why are you removing Bibles but not pay-porn on your
TVs?
Scandic, which had started keeping its Bibles behind the front
desk, put the New Testament back in guest rooms.
"Sweden is not as secular as we thought," says Christer Sturmark,
head of Sweden's Humanist Association, a noisy assembly of
nonbelievers to which the Bible-protesting hotel guest belongs.
Or rather - Scandic hotels decided that very few atheists and agnostics
are rather unlikely to care very much either way about whether there is
a bible in a drawer in their hotel room or not. An organized boycot by
non-religious people was unlikely.
On the other hand, the hotel might lose a _little_ money from a
possible boycot by maybe a two or three thousand christians (about the
number who protested by clicking on the web pages of a christian
organization to send form letters of protest to the hotel, out of the
about 240 000 people in Sweden who regularily attend christian church
services).
So they decided that loss-benefit wise, it just wasn't worth it for
them. No benefit vs a tiny loss is still not worth it.
Hardly a massive groundswell of protest, when 3% of the population
attends church, and about 0.03% of the population protested the removal
of bibles - ie 1 in 100 out of the people who regularily attends church.
Seems like the 99 out of 100 other christian believers didn't think it
was a big issue worth making a fuss about.
Grin,
Stein
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| User: "mrtravel" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
30 Nov 2007 01:22:54 AM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2007_07_15_archive.html#8791230360285898021
The Church in Europe
No, that's not an oxymoron. This article from the July 14, 2007 Wall
Street Journal tells us that after decades of decline, Christianity
seems to be making a modest comeback:
Late last year, a Swedish hotel guest named Stefan Jansson grew
upset when he found a Bible in his room. He fired off an email to the
hotel chain, saying the presence of the Christian scriptures was
"boring and stupefying." This spring, the Scandic chain, Scandinavia's
biggest, ordered the New Testaments removed.
In a country where barely 3% of the population goes to church each
week, the affair seemed just another step in Christian Europe's long
march toward secularism. Then something odd happened: A national furor
erupted. A conservative bishop announced a boycott. A leftist radical
who became a devout Christian and talk-show host denounced the
biblical purge in newspaper columns and on television. A young
evangelical Christian organized an electronic letter-writing campaign,
asking Scandic: Why are you removing Bibles but not pay-porn on your
TVs?
Uh, pay-porn makes them money, bibles don't.
I don't get the big idea. As noted in your post, only 3 percent of the
population goes to church weekly. I can't imagine more than 3 percent
caring about bibles being in a hotel room. If you want a bible to read,
carry it with you.
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| User: "D K Palm" |
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| Title: Re: Public Outrage Forces Swedish Hotels To Put Bibles Back |
08 Dec 2007 07:13:45 AM |
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That must have been a darn quiet public outcry, probably centred
around J=F6nk=F6ping (the "holiest" city in Sweden). Not even the tabloid
have mentioned it and they have a public outcry at least three times
in a week.
I think there are still an religious organisation donating the bible
to some hotels, but I really don't think people would care or not.
Now when the church got separated from the state the member ship is
rapidly dwindling and I believe that the Swedish Church have lost
about 30% of it's member in 5 years. Sade in a way because soon only
the fruit cake Christians in all those Jehovah's and Pentecostal sects
will be left.
Hopefully we Swedes will get a new nicer religion to rally around,
like Buddhism or the Universal Unionism.
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