| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Divin Marquis" |
| Date: |
29 Apr 2005 11:50:21 AM |
| Object: |
Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food should
be eaten.
Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's unleavened.
What gives?
2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
mentions the fact that chicken à la crème is offlimit, yet chicken don't
make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
animal in HER mother's milk.
The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually veal
or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings à la crème, or
were there flying cows during Abraham's times?
I'm asking this because my roommates are Jewish, and quite clueless about
their faith. They could ask their rabbi, I guess, but they don't ever
go to a place of worship; they just make the huge sacrifice of not
eating pork. I'm trying to help here.
Thanks in advance.
.
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| User: "Patricia Heil" |
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| Title: Re: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
29 Apr 2005 06:35:02 PM |
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"Divin Marquis" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.29.16.50.14.891012@127.0.0.1...
1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food should
be eaten.
Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's unleavened.
What gives?
2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
mentions the fact that chicken à la crème is offlimit, yet chicken don't
make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
animal in HER mother's milk.
The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually veal
or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings à la crème, or
were there flying cows during Abraham's times?
I'm asking this because my roommates are Jewish, and quite clueless about
their faith. They could ask their rabbi, I guess, but they don't ever
go to a place of worship; they just make the huge sacrifice of not
eating pork. I'm trying to help here.
Thanks in advance.
Read the FAQ
http://shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
30 Apr 2005 04:02:47 AM |
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Le Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:35:02 +0000, Patricia Heil a écrit :
Read the FAQ
http://shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/
Someone else already posted a FAQ and it didn't answer my questions. Does
yours? Why can't you just copy & paste the relevant part instead of the
URL?
.
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| User: "øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" |
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| Title: Re: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
02 May 2005 09:50:24 AM |
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Why can't you just do the research yourself????????
Everything I posted answered your questions!
I can't help it you are too lazy to read what I posted, or unable to see
the answers for yourself...
"Divin Marquis" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.30.09.02.47.409676@127.0.0.1...
: Le Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:35:02 +0000, Patricia Heil a écrit :
:
: > Read the FAQ
: > http://shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/
:
: Someone else already posted a FAQ and it didn't answer my questions.
Does
: yours? Why can't you just copy & paste the relevant part instead of
the
: URL?
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
02 May 2005 11:04:36 PM |
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"øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:R2rde.151232$vL3.72605@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Why can't you just do the research yourself????????
Everything I posted answered your questions!
I can't help it you are too lazy to read what I posted, or unable to see
the answers for yourself...
No one should waste all sorts of bandwidth when a URL is sufficient.
Susan
"Divin Marquis" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.30.09.02.47.409676@127.0.0.1...
: Le Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:35:02 +0000, Patricia Heil a écrit :
:
: > Read the FAQ
: > http://shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/
:
: Someone else already posted a FAQ and it didn't answer my questions.
Does
: yours? Why can't you just copy & paste the relevant part instead of
the
: URL?
.
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
12 May 2005 08:32:50 AM |
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Le Mon, 02 May 2005 17:50:24 +0300, øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton a
écrit :
Why can't you just do the research yourself????????
Everything I posted answered your questions!
No it did not.
I can't help it you are too lazy to read what I posted, or unable to see
the answers for yourself...
That's what most gullibles, err sorry, believers say about their sacred
books, and usually they don't even know squat.
Anyway, I didn't find the answer to my questions in your link.
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| User: "James Ascher" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
29 Apr 2005 08:47:06 PM |
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Divin Marquis wrote:
1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food should
be eaten.
Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's unleavened.
What gives?
2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
mentions the fact that chicken à la crème is offlimit, yet chicken don't
make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
animal in HER mother's milk.
The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually veal
or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings à la crème, or
were there flying cows during Abraham's times?
I'm asking this because my roommates are Jewish, and quite clueless about
their faith. They could ask their rabbi, I guess, but they don't ever
go to a place of worship; they just make the huge sacrifice of not
eating pork. I'm trying to help here.
Thanks in advance.
Get new roommates so you don't have to deal with arcane dietary concerns!
James
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
30 Apr 2005 04:03:38 AM |
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Le Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:47:06 +0000, James Ascher a écrit :
Get new roommates so you don't have to deal with arcane dietary concerns!
It's no big concern for me. I'm just being facetious with them.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
02 May 2005 08:12:27 AM |
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Divin Marquis wrote:
1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food should
be eaten.
Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's unleavened.
What gives?
Orthodox rules for "kosher for Passover" require very, very little time
between harvest and cooking. The idea is to prevent, as much as possible, the
"infection" of the grain with wild yeast and the fermentation of the grain
itself. For this reason, grain is specially grown and harvested for Passover
and is usually reserved for the bread.
Another reason is that the Orthodox rules on leaven allow the Passover flour
to be mixed only with water and salt. You will *never* see things like egg
matzoh in a very orthodox home during Passover! Pasta, being made with eggs,
is inherently not kosher for Passover under these rules.
Mind you, less strict schools of Judaism could allow for kosher for Passover
pasta, but such a product would never have the circled K symbol, which marks
it as kosher under the rules of the Union of Orthodox Rabbis.
2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
mentions the fact that chicken à la crème is offlimit, yet chicken don't
make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
animal in HER mother's milk.
The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually veal
or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings à la crème, or
were there flying cows during Abraham's times?
In one of the versions of the Ten Commandments is the rule: you shall not boil
a kid in its mother's milk. From that, a dietary law has been derived that
strictly prohibits the combining of any milk and any meat. Fowl -- chicken,
duck, turkey, etc -- is considered meat even though it is not a mammal. This
most likely came out of the Middle Ages, when church rules held that flesh
(cow, pig, goat, rats, etc.) and fowl were forbidden on "meatless" fast days.
So under kashrut, it is allowable to have fish with cream sauce, because fish
is not considered meat, but turkey a la king or chicken wings a la creme
violate the Orthodox dietary rules.
Again, different schools of Judaism vary. I know Conservative Jews who still
observe the separation of meat and milk, but who define meat in this case as
the flesh of mammals.
I'm asking this because my roommates are Jewish, and quite clueless about
their faith. They could ask their rabbi, I guess, but they don't ever
go to a place of worship; they just make the huge sacrifice of not
eating pork. I'm trying to help here.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe
in one fewer god than you do. When you understand
why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you
will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Stephen F. Roberts
.
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| User: "cindys" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
02 May 2005 10:42:42 AM |
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"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:4276273B.22A2D8B1@serv.net...
Divin Marquis wrote:
snip
Mind you, less strict schools of Judaism could allow for kosher for
Passover
pasta, but such a product would never have the circled K symbol, which
marks
it as kosher under the rules of the Union of Orthodox Rabbis.
--------
Actually, yes there is KLP pasta with either a circle-K or a circle-U. It is
made by Manischewitz (maybe using potato starch).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
02 May 2005 10:50:56 AM |
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cindys wrote:
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:4276273B.22A2D8B1@serv.net...
Divin Marquis wrote:
snip
Mind you, less strict schools of Judaism could allow for kosher for
Passover
pasta, but such a product would never have the circled K symbol,
which
marks
it as kosher under the rules of the Union of Orthodox Rabbis.
--------
Actually, yes there is KLP pasta with either a circle-K or a
circle-U. It is
made by Manischewitz (maybe using potato starch).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Hey, Cindy. Do you and Susan take turns vacationing or something?
;-)
Welcome back, good to see ya again.
bd4u
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
02 May 2005 11:14:57 PM |
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<gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1115049056.643688.275620@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
cindys wrote:
Actually, yes there is KLP pasta with either a circle-K or a
circle-U. It is
made by Manischewitz (maybe using potato starch).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Hey, Cindy. Do you and Susan take turns vacationing or something?
Huh? We both don't post on High Holy Days (including Shabbos).
Susan
;-)
Welcome back, good to see ya again.
bd4u
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
03 May 2005 12:13:32 PM |
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Susan Cohen wrote:
<gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1115049056.643688.275620@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
cindys wrote:
Actually, yes there is KLP pasta with either a circle-K or a
circle-U. It is
made by Manischewitz (maybe using potato starch).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Hey, Cindy. Do you and Susan take turns vacationing or something?
Huh? We both don't post on High Holy Days (including Shabbos).
I just haven't seen Cindy on in quite awhile. That's all
I was really suggesting by it. But then SCJ is a big conference
maybe I just missed it, or she isn't writing as much as she
used to in it.
(I'd also like to see more threads like this one on the subject
of Kosher to begin with)
Susan
Cheers to ya both..
Bruce
;-)
Welcome back, good to see ya again.
bd4u
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
02 May 2005 10:30:51 PM |
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"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:4276273B.22A2D8B1@serv.net...
Another reason is that the Orthodox rules on leaven allow the Passover
flour
to be mixed only with water and salt. You will *never* see things like egg
matzoh in a very orthodox home during Passover!
Except for those with young children, people who are ill enough to warrant
it, and those with bad teeth.
Susan
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| User: "øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
03 May 2005 05:06:35 AM |
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Can you just imagine a Pesach without eggs?!!!
Here is a nightmare, that I know of: Several Jews who have celiac
disease, and are vegans!!!
"Susan Cohen" <flavia18@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:LfCde.5346$db7.649@trnddc01...
:
: "Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
: news:4276273B.22A2D8B1@serv.net...
: >
: > Another reason is that the Orthodox rules on leaven allow the
Passover
: > flour
: > to be mixed only with water and salt. You will *never* see things
like egg
: > matzoh in a very orthodox home during Passover!
:
: Except for those with young children, people who are ill enough to
warrant
: it, and those with bad teeth.
:
: Susan
:
:
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
03 May 2005 12:04:35 PM |
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"øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:DWHde.152807$vK6.119886@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Can you just imagine a Pesach without eggs?!!!
Here is a nightmare, that I know of: Several Jews who have celiac
disease, and are vegans!!!
They have my complete & utter sympathy.
Susan
"Susan Cohen" <flavia18@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:LfCde.5346$db7.649@trnddc01...
:
: "Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
: news:4276273B.22A2D8B1@serv.net...
: >
: > Another reason is that the Orthodox rules on leaven allow the
Passover
: > flour
: > to be mixed only with water and salt. You will *never* see things
like egg
: > matzoh in a very orthodox home during Passover!
:
: Except for those with young children, people who are ill enough to
warrant
: it, and those with bad teeth.
:
: Susan
:
:
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
03 May 2005 08:44:58 AM |
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"øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" wrote:
Can you just imagine a Pesach without eggs?!!!
Here is a nightmare, that I know of: Several Jews who have celiac
disease, and are vegans!!!
Did I say eggs? No. I said egg matzoh. Please make an effort to read
before responding.
"Susan Cohen" <flavia18@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:LfCde.5346$db7.649@trnddc01...
:
: "Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
: news:4276273B.22A2D8B1@serv.net...
: >
: > Another reason is that the Orthodox rules on leaven allow the
Passover
: > flour
: > to be mixed only with water and salt. You will *never* see things
like egg
: > matzoh in a very orthodox home during Passover!
:
: Except for those with young children, people who are ill enough to
warrant
: it, and those with bad teeth.
:
: Susan
:
:
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe
in one fewer god than you do. When you understand
why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you
will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Stephen F. Roberts
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
03 May 2005 12:05:02 PM |
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"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:42778059.85D291FA@serv.net...
"øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" wrote:
Can you just imagine a Pesach without eggs?!!!
Here is a nightmare, that I know of: Several Jews who have celiac
disease, and are vegans!!!
Did I say eggs? No. I said egg matzoh. Please make an effort to read
before responding.
How do you know it wasn't just a digression?
Susan
"Susan Cohen" <flavia18@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:LfCde.5346$db7.649@trnddc01...
:
: "Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
: news:4276273B.22A2D8B1@serv.net...
: >
: > Another reason is that the Orthodox rules on leaven allow the
Passover
: > flour
: > to be mixed only with water and salt. You will *never* see things
like egg
: > matzoh in a very orthodox home during Passover!
:
: Except for those with young children, people who are ill enough to
warrant
: it, and those with bad teeth.
:
: Susan
:
:
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe
in one fewer god than you do. When you understand
why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you
will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Stephen F. Roberts
.
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
05 May 2005 09:34:03 AM |
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Le Tue, 03 May 2005 13:06:35 +0300, øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton a
écrit :
Can you just imagine a Pesach without eggs?!!!
Here is a nightmare, that I know of: Several Jews who have celiac disease,
and are vegans!!!
Can't they eat fruits? Fresh vegetables?
.
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| User: "øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
02 May 2005 09:48:53 AM |
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I am afraid what you have written is full of mistakes, myths, and
misconceptions about Judaism, Kashrut, and Passover.
The Orthodox Union uses the letter "O" with the letter "U" inside of it,
not the circle "k" symbol.
There is nothing wrong with using eggs during Passover at all. There can
be pasta that is kosher for Passover, made from special ingredients, not
from flour, and if you are sephardic rice is kosher for Passover, along
with legumes.
There is not any "Orthodox" rules for Passover. There are Kashrut laws,
and you either follow them or you don't. The same law for Passover
applies to all Jew, no matter their affiliation.
"Gregory Gadow" <> wrote in message
news:4276273B.22A2D8B1@serv.net...
: Divin Marquis wrote:
:
: > 1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food
should
: > be eaten.
: >
: > Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's
unleavened.
: > What gives?
:
: Orthodox rules for "kosher for Passover" require very, very little
time
: between harvest and cooking. The idea is to prevent, as much as
possible, the
: "infection" of the grain with wild yeast and the fermentation of the
grain
: itself. For this reason, grain is specially grown and harvested for
Passover
: and is usually reserved for the bread.
:
: Another reason is that the Orthodox rules on leaven allow the Passover
flour
: to be mixed only with water and salt. You will *never* see things like
egg
: matzoh in a very orthodox home during Passover! Pasta, being made with
eggs,
: is inherently not kosher for Passover under these rules.
:
: Mind you, less strict schools of Judaism could allow for kosher for
Passover
: pasta, but such a product would never have the circled K symbol, which
marks
: it as kosher under the rules of the Union of Orthodox Rabbis.
:
: > 2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
: > mentions the fact that chicken à la crème is offlimit, yet chicken
don't
: > make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
: > refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
: > animal in HER mother's milk.
: >
: > The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
: > mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually
veal
: > or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings à la
crème, or
: > were there flying cows during Abraham's times?
:
: In one of the versions of the Ten Commandments is the rule: you shall
not boil
: a kid in its mother's milk. From that, a dietary law has been derived
that
: strictly prohibits the combining of any milk and any meat. Fowl --
chicken,
: duck, turkey, etc -- is considered meat even though it is not a
mammal. This
: most likely came out of the Middle Ages, when church rules held that
flesh
: (cow, pig, goat, rats, etc.) and fowl were forbidden on "meatless"
fast days.
: So under kashrut, it is allowable to have fish with cream sauce,
because fish
: is not considered meat, but turkey a la king or chicken wings a la
creme
: violate the Orthodox dietary rules.
:
: Again, different schools of Judaism vary. I know Conservative Jews who
still
: observe the separation of meat and milk, but who define meat in this
case as
: the flesh of mammals.
:
: > I'm asking this because my roommates are Jewish, and quite clueless
about
: > their faith. They could ask their rabbi, I guess, but they don't
ever
: > go to a place of worship; they just make the huge sacrifice of not
: > eating pork. I'm trying to help here.
:
: --
: Gregory Gadow
:
: http://www.serv.net/~techbear
:
: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe
: in one fewer god than you do. When you understand
: why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you
: will understand why I dismiss yours."
: -Stephen F. Roberts
:
:
.
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| User: "Binyamin Dissen" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
02 May 2005 08:58:59 AM |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 06:12:27 -0700 Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net> wrote:
:>Divin Marquis wrote:
:>> 1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food should
:>> be eaten.
:>> Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's unleavened.
:>> What gives?
:>Orthodox rules for "kosher for Passover" require very, very little time
:>between harvest and cooking.
Quite false. The grain has just started growing at about that time.
Last years crop is used.
:> The idea is to prevent, as much as possible, the
:>"infection" of the grain with wild yeast and the fermentation of the grain
:>itself. For this reason, grain is specially grown and harvested for Passover
:>and is usually reserved for the bread.
Yes, grain used for Shmura Matza is specially harvested.
:>Another reason is that the Orthodox rules on leaven allow the Passover flour
:>to be mixed only with water and salt. You will *never* see things like egg
:>matzoh in a very orthodox home during Passover! Pasta, being made with eggs,
:>is inherently not kosher for Passover under these rules.
Actually, much more complicated.
Chametz is typically described as leavening, but it has certain properties
that do not match that description.
1. Flour with pure oil or wine (without added water) can never become Chametz,
according to all opinions. If a single drop of water is added to the mixture
it can become Chametz.
2. There are opinions that flour combined with any pure fruit juice cannot
become Chametz.
3. The flour becomes Chametz immediately when combined with hot water.
Etc.
There are those that use egg matza and they have what to stand on.
Pasta can be made out of non-grain flour or out of Matza meal (one the
flour/water mixture is baked into Matza it can be ground up and mixed with
whatever and will not become Chametz).
:>Mind you, less strict schools of Judaism could allow for kosher for Passover
:>pasta, but such a product would never have the circled K symbol, which marks
:>it as kosher under the rules of the Union of Orthodox Rabbis.
As above.
:>> 2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
:>> mentions the fact that chicken à la crème is offlimit, yet chicken don't
:>> make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
:>> refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
:>> animal in HER mother's milk.
:>> The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
:>> mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually veal
:>> or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings à la crème, or
:>> were there flying cows during Abraham's times?
:>In one of the versions of the Ten Commandments is the rule: you shall not boil
:>a kid in its mother's milk.
Not in the Ten Utterances.
:> From that, a dietary law has been derived that
:>strictly prohibits the combining of any milk and any meat. Fowl -- chicken,
:>duck, turkey, etc -- is considered meat even though it is not a mammal. This
:>most likely came out of the Middle Ages, when church rules held that flesh
:>(cow, pig, goat, rats, etc.) and fowl were forbidden on "meatless" fast days.
:>So under kashrut, it is allowable to have fish with cream sauce, because fish
:>is not considered meat, but turkey a la king or chicken wings a la creme
:>violate the Orthodox dietary rules.
There is a dispute as to whether fowl and milk is Biblically forbidden (during
the various dispersions of the Jews some of the Oral Law was confused because
people in outlying areas could not confirm the teachings and when they finally
go together after a few generations there was no way to determine what the law
was).
According to the opinion that it is Biblically permitted, the Rabbi's forbade
it since fowl has some of the same procedures as meat, such as slaughtering
and removing blood, that there was concern about confusion. Fish, which has
none of those procedures may be eaten with milk.
:>Again, different schools of Judaism vary. I know Conservative Jews who still
:>observe the separation of meat and milk, but who define meat in this case as
:>the flesh of mammals.
The conservative, reformed and jews-for-jesus make up their own rules based on
what makes life easier for them. The reformed tend to discard everything from
the Torah except jesus worship, the j4j's tend to keep Kashrut and Sabbath but
worship jesus and the conservative do some of each.
:>> I'm asking this because my roommates are Jewish, and quite clueless about
:>> their faith. They could ask their rabbi, I guess, but they don't ever
:>> go to a place of worship; they just make the huge sacrifice of not
:>> eating pork. I'm trying to help here.
Pork is no worse than beef that was not properly slaughtered. A cheeseburger
is worse than a ham sandwich (by Jewish law).
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.
I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.
.
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| User: "BDK" |
|
| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
29 Apr 2005 10:19:18 PM |
|
|
In article <pan.2005.04.29.16.50.14.891012@127.0.0.1>, postmaster@
127.0.0.1 says...
1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food shoul=
d
be eaten.
=20
Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's unleavened.
What gives?
=20
2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
mentions the fact that chicken =C3=A0 la cr=C3=3D3Fme is offlimit, yet ch=
icken don't
make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
animal in HER mother's milk.=20
=20
The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually veal
or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings =C3=A0 la cr=C3=
=3D3Fme, or
were there flying cows during Abraham's times?
=20
=20
I'm asking this because my roommates are Jewish, and quite clueless about
their faith. They could ask their rabbi, I guess, but they don't ever
go to a place of worship; they just make the huge sacrifice of not
eating pork. I'm trying to help here.=20
=20
Thanks in advance.
=20
Hmm, I don't personally know ANY jews that follow any of the food=20
"rules". I've asked some of of them, and one who gobbles ham like a=20
vacuum cleaner constantly, about it, and his reaction is, "Who gives a=20
*****?" The other reactions I've gotten when I ask about it range from a=20
shrug of the shoulders to the shrimp fanatic who laughs and says, "I=20
only do that stuff when my one set of grandparents is in town, gramps is=20
a rabbi!" Another friend's 70+ year old dad told me about "sneaking=20
bacon" into the house, and getting busted by his orthodox parents. He's=20
made up for losing that stash a thousand times over since then. Not to=20
mention the fried shrimp he eats about everytime they go out to dinner.
I cracked up when a friend of mine's parents had a huge bowl of shrimp=20
alongside the matzos and gefilte fish(yuck!) during a passover meal.
Like any other religion, only the "extreme" believers seem to really=20
care about that kind of stuff.=20
Almost all my friends were catholics back in grade and HS, and I=20
remember the meatless Fridays when I was a kid. Only about half of the=20
parents followed it, and I think maybe a couple of the girls in the=20
neighborhood didn't eat burgers on Fri because of it, one girl was=20
nearly a vegetarian anyway, a real rarity back then. She was so pasty=20
white it was amazing. Kinda creepy actually.
I remember being surprised when my friend's mom suddenly started cooking=20
burgers one Friday night when I was there. I asked about it, and she=20
shrugged her shoulders and shook her head. I was kind of hoping we would=20
have Perch or something instead of burgers, my dad wasn't crazy about=20
fish, so we didn't have it very often..
BDK
.
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| User: "øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" |
|
| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
02 May 2005 09:41:20 AM |
|
|
Then you do not know many Jews at all... And probably they are not even
real Jews.
"BDK" <kingratatatboy@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cdcc33d46f913e09898a4@news.buckeye-express.com...
In article <pan.2005.04.29.16.50.14.891012@127.0.0.1>, postmaster@
127.0.0.1 says...
1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food
should
be eaten.
Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's
unleavened.
What gives?
2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
mentions the fact that chicken à la crÃ=3Fme is offlimit, yet chicken
don't
make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
animal in HER mother's milk.
The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually
veal
or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings à la
crÃ=3Fme, or
were there flying cows during Abraham's times?
I'm asking this because my roommates are Jewish, and quite clueless
about
their faith. They could ask their rabbi, I guess, but they don't ever
go to a place of worship; they just make the huge sacrifice of not
eating pork. I'm trying to help here.
Thanks in advance.
Hmm, I don't personally know ANY jews that follow any of the food
"rules". I've asked some of of them, and one who gobbles ham like a
vacuum cleaner constantly, about it, and his reaction is, "Who gives a
*****?" The other reactions I've gotten when I ask about it range from a
shrug of the shoulders to the shrimp fanatic who laughs and says, "I
only do that stuff when my one set of grandparents is in town, gramps is
a rabbi!" Another friend's 70+ year old dad told me about "sneaking
bacon" into the house, and getting busted by his orthodox parents. He's
made up for losing that stash a thousand times over since then. Not to
mention the fried shrimp he eats about everytime they go out to dinner.
I cracked up when a friend of mine's parents had a huge bowl of shrimp
alongside the matzos and gefilte fish(yuck!) during a passover meal.
Like any other religion, only the "extreme" believers seem to really
care about that kind of stuff.
Almost all my friends were catholics back in grade and HS, and I
remember the meatless Fridays when I was a kid. Only about half of the
parents followed it, and I think maybe a couple of the girls in the
neighborhood didn't eat burgers on Fri because of it, one girl was
nearly a vegetarian anyway, a real rarity back then. She was so pasty
white it was amazing. Kinda creepy actually.
I remember being surprised when my friend's mom suddenly started cooking
burgers one Friday night when I was there. I asked about it, and she
shrugged her shoulders and shook her head. I was kind of hoping we would
have Perch or something instead of burgers, my dad wasn't crazy about
fish, so we didn't have it very often..
BDK
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
02 May 2005 10:32:28 PM |
|
|
"øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:xSqde.148833$UW6.28187@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
Then you do not know many Jews at all... And probably they are not even
real Jews.
I doubt he really does know any Jews, but, if he did, they would be of the
sort he mentioned. It doesn't mean anything about Judaism but it sure shows
a lot about him.
Susan
"BDK" <kingratatatboy@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cdcc33d46f913e09898a4@news.buckeye-express.com...
In article <pan.2005.04.29.16.50.14.891012@127.0.0.1>, postmaster@
127.0.0.1 says...
1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food
should
be eaten.
Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's
unleavened.
What gives?
2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
mentions the fact that chicken à la crÃ=3Fme is offlimit, yet chicken
don't
make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
animal in HER mother's milk.
The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually
veal
or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings à la
crÃ=3Fme, or
were there flying cows during Abraham's times?
I'm asking this because my roommates are Jewish, and quite clueless
about
their faith. They could ask their rabbi, I guess, but they don't ever
go to a place of worship; they just make the huge sacrifice of not
eating pork. I'm trying to help here.
Thanks in advance.
Hmm, I don't personally know ANY jews that follow any of the food
"rules". I've asked some of of them, and one who gobbles ham like a
vacuum cleaner constantly, about it, and his reaction is, "Who gives a
*****?" The other reactions I've gotten when I ask about it range from a
shrug of the shoulders to the shrimp fanatic who laughs and says, "I
only do that stuff when my one set of grandparents is in town, gramps is
a rabbi!" Another friend's 70+ year old dad told me about "sneaking
bacon" into the house, and getting busted by his orthodox parents. He's
made up for losing that stash a thousand times over since then. Not to
mention the fried shrimp he eats about everytime they go out to dinner.
I cracked up when a friend of mine's parents had a huge bowl of shrimp
alongside the matzos and gefilte fish(yuck!) during a passover meal.
Like any other religion, only the "extreme" believers seem to really
care about that kind of stuff.
Almost all my friends were catholics back in grade and HS, and I
remember the meatless Fridays when I was a kid. Only about half of the
parents followed it, and I think maybe a couple of the girls in the
neighborhood didn't eat burgers on Fri because of it, one girl was
nearly a vegetarian anyway, a real rarity back then. She was so pasty
white it was amazing. Kinda creepy actually.
I remember being surprised when my friend's mom suddenly started cooking
burgers one Friday night when I was there. I asked about it, and she
shrugged her shoulders and shook her head. I was kind of hoping we would
have Perch or something instead of burgers, my dad wasn't crazy about
fish, so we didn't have it very often..
BDK
.
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
|
| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
05 May 2005 09:48:23 AM |
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|
Le Tue, 03 May 2005 03:32:28 +0000, Susan Cohen a écrit :
I doubt he really does know any Jews, but, if he did, they would be of the
sort he mentioned. It doesn't mean anything about Judaism but it sure
shows a lot about him.
C'm'on, you know you want to do it ... go ahead, call me antisemitic. I
can sense it's burning your tongue.
You don't know me, yet you're ready to jump the gun. Just because I made a
little fun of your religion. Here's a newsflash: I'm an equal opportunity
religion-basher. When I meet a christian -- not that common in Paris,
nowadays, I actually meet more jews, esp. since I live near Rue des
Rosiers -- I make fun of them questioning the existence of Jesus.
.
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Q: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
05 May 2005 09:35:49 AM |
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|
Le Mon, 02 May 2005 17:41:20 +0300, øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton a
écrit :
Then you do not know many Jews at all... And probably they are not even
real Jews.
A few of them were "jew" enough to have most of their families die in
concentration camps. Who are you to judge?
.
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| User: "Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï" |
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| Title: Re: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
29 Apr 2005 03:10:16 PM |
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Passover: FAQ
http://www.zipple.com/holidays/passover/passoverfaq.shtml
What foods are prohibited during Passover?
Bread, for starters. Any food that includes grains that rise when
combined with water. Cookies, cereal, pretzels, and pasta are all
prohibited, although Passover versions made without flour are OK.
Ashkenazic Jews also don't eat rice, corn, or any legumes on Passover.
Why can't you eat these foods on Passover?
In Exodus 12:15, the Torah states no unleavened bread-chametz-should be
eaten during Passover. Four verses later, it adds that no chametz should
be found in the home. Any foods that have chametz in them, therefore,
are forbidden.
What foods must be certified "Kosher for Passover"?
Canned foods, candies, shortenings; coffees and teas; jams and jellies;
mixes; tuna fish; vegetable oils and shortening; wines and liqueurs;
milk, orange juice, and other beverages.
What foods don't have to be certified "Kosher for Passover"?
Raw meat, chicken, and fish; fruits and vegetables; eggs; whole,
unground spices.
What is the Seder?
The Seder is the ceremonial meal that commemorates the Jewish exodus
from slavery in Egypt. Food is only a part of the process; the most
important component is the maggid, or "telling," during which the actual
details of the exodus from Egypt are recalled. The recital of "The four
questions" by the youngest child present sets the stage for the ensuing
discussions.
Each participant at the seder drinks four cups of wine, corresponding to
the four words used by the Torah to describe God's redemption of the
Jews in taking them out of Egypt: "I will bring you out," "I will save
you," "I will redeem you," and "I will take you" (Exodus, 6:6-7).
Matzah and maror are eaten at the seder to commemorate God's commanding
the Jews to eat their roasted lamb with bitter herbs and unleavened
bread. Additionally, when drinking the wine and eating, everyone at the
table reclines, symbolizing freedom.
What are the four questions?
The four questions, known as the Mah Nishtanah, are recited during the
seder. They ask why this night is different from all other nights. The
questions are:
a) On all other nights, we eat chametz and matzah. On this night why
only matzah?
b) On all other nights we eat all vegetables; on this night why only
maror?
c) On all other nights we don't dip our food even once; why on this
night twice?
d) On all other nights we eat either sitting or reclining; why on this
night do we all recline?
What is the haggadah?
The haggadah is the book used at the seder. It contains blessings,
prayers, and songs, and is read from beginning to end. "Haggadah" means
telling; the book guides the effort to fulfill the commandment on the
night of Passover of reciting the story of the exodus from Egypt.
What's the significance of matzah?
Matzah, the signature food of Passover, is the unleavened bread which
Jews eat on Passover. The matzah recalls the rush in which the Jews fled
Egypt, when they did not have time to fully bake their bread, and were
forced to eat unleavened bread.
Some people have the custom to use shmurah matzah, which has been
supervised from the time the wheat was harvested to make certain it did
not come into contact with water.
What's on the seder plate?
The Seder plate sits at the center of the Seder table and has six items:
1) Zroah - a roasted shankbone with a little meat on it. Not eaten.
2) Beitzah - a roasted egg. Together with the shankbone, this symbolizes
the sacrifices offered at the Holy temple in Jerusalem on the eve of
Passover. The egg is also thought to be used as a symbol of mourning for
the destroyed temple.
3) Karpas - a vegetable, usually celery or parsley, that will be dipped
in salt water and eaten.
4) Maror in the form of horseradish root, usually used for the first
time maror is eaten.
5) Maror in the form of romaine lettuce, usually used for the korech
sandwich.
6) Charoset - a sweet mixture of apples, nuts, cinnamon, spices, and
wine, grated to have the appearance of mortar, symbolizing the bricks
the Jews used as slaves in Egypt.
What are the bitter herbs used for?
The bitter herbs, or maror, serve as a reminder to the bitter times the
Jews had as slaves in Egypt. Two forms of maror are used, horseradish
root and romaine lettuce.
What is the shankbone?
The shankbone sits on the seder plate. Along with the roasted egg, it
symbolizes the sacrifices offered at the Holy Temple in Jerusalem on the
eve of Passover. Neither is eaten.
What is the roasted egg?
The roasted egg sits on the seder plate, and together with the
shankbone, symbolizes the sacrifices offered at the Holy Temple in
Jerusalem on the eve of Passover. The egg is also thought to be used as
a symbol of mourning for the destroyed temple. Neither the egg nor the
shankbone are eaten.
What is the karpas?
The karpas is a green vegetable, usually celery or parsley, that sits on
the seder plate. Unlike the shankbone or egg, it is eaten, after first
being dipped in salt water.
Why is a piece of matzah hidden during the seder?
The middle of the three matzahs is broken and put away for dessert. This
matzah is known as the afikoman. The custom developed that children try
to steal the afikoman and barter it later for a gift. In some families,
the parents hide it and children search for it. Since the seder is long
and goes late into the night, this custom apparently developed in order
to keep children's interest.
If only four cups of wine are drunk at the seder, why is there a fifth
cup?
The fifth cup is for Elijah the Prophet. Several explanations have been
offered for this custom. Some say that the cup, like Elijah's chair at a
circumcision, is for the prophet to come and testify that Israel have
faithfully fulfilled the requirements of Passover.
Others say that the cup is a resolution to the argument among the sages
regarding how many cups should be drunk at the seder, four or five. The
placement of the cup for Elijah signifies that he will resolve it,
since, according to tradition, he will resolve all undecided matters of
Jewish law.
Why is the door opened for Elijah?
At the end of the seder, the door is opened for Elijah the Prophet, who
is believed to visit every seder taking place across the world.
According to the Book of Prophets, the arrival of the Messiah will be
preceded by Elijah; his visit to the seder, therefore, hopefully marks
the coming of the Messiah and the ultimate redemption for the children
of Israel.
Also significant is the opening of the door, which refers to the phrase
"night of watching" used in the Torah to describe the night the Jews
left Egypt (Exodus 12:42). The open door signifies that a watching or
guarding is taking place.
Why are candles lit before Passover starts?
Jewish women light two candles to begin every Shabbat and Jewish
festival. The candles are functional lights, ensuring that a family will
have light by which to eat, talk, and study. Many women light one candle
for every member of their family. Candles are also lit again on the
second night.
What are the differences between Ashkenazic and Sephardic customs on
Passover?
The primary difference is that Ashkenazim don't eat rice, corn, peanuts,
or any type of legume, while most Sephardim do. Sephardim also tend to
have a bigger seder plate, since they include the matzah on it.
Why is Passover eight days long in America but only seven days in
Israel?
The Jewish calendar is lunar-based. During the time of the Holy Temple,
starting dates for holidays were based on Rosh Chodesh, the new month,
which was determined by watching the moon. Witnesses who saw the new
moon would report it to the sanhedrin, the high Jewish court. Holidays
would then start at the prescribed number of days after the new moon
dictated in the Torah (Passover on the 15th day of Nisan, for example).
After the new moon was announced in Jerusalem, messengers were
dispatched to spread the word to outlying countries where Jews lived, so
that everyone would know when the holidays were supposed to begin. The
messengers weren't able to reach communities far away, however; those
communities therefore had to set the dates of holidays based upon the
end of the previous month. Since Rosh Chodesh can be either one or two
days, they observed the first day of the holiday for two days in order
to avoid any chance of transgressing restrictions on the actual date of
the holiday.
With the advent of the modern calendar, the exact starting date of all
Jewish holidays is predetermined far in advance, but the rabbis
maintained the practice of observing a second day of holiday observance,
since that's what our ancestors practiced. In Israel, however, only one
day is observed, since there was never a two-day observance there.
What's the difference between Passover and Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur?
Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are High Holidays, the days on which Jews
believe God judges them for the new year. Passover is a festival and has
Shabbat-like restrictions against work during the first two and last two
days. The restrictions are relaxed during Chol Hamoed.
"Divin Marquis" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.29.16.50.14.891012@127.0.0.1...
: 1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food
should
: be eaten.
:
: Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's
unleavened.
: What gives?
:
: 2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
: mentions the fact that chicken à la crème is offlimit, yet chicken
don't
: make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
: refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
: animal in HER mother's milk.
:
: The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
: mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually
veal
: or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings à la crème,
or
: were there flying cows during Abraham's times?
:
:
: I'm asking this because my roommates are Jewish, and quite clueless
about
: their faith. They could ask their rabbi, I guess, but they don't ever
: go to a place of worship; they just make the huge sacrifice of not
: eating pork. I'm trying to help here.
:
: Thanks in advance.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï" |
|
| Title: Re: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
29 Apr 2005 03:14:25 PM |
|
|
Why is This Night Different?
Rebecca J. Brimmer
These words are asked in Jewish homes around the world on the first
night of Passover. If you have ever attended a Passover meal, you have
heard this question asked. It is indeed a very special night. In fact,
many of my Jewish friends say it is their favorite holiday.
Passover is one of the most important events in the Jewish calendar. It
is celebrated during the Hebrew month of Nissan, which coincides with
March or April. Lasting eight days, it is a joy-filled family time.
Unlike most of the biblical feasts, Passover is celebrated primarily in
the home with friends and family, not in the synagogue. On the first
evening of Passover, a special Seder (meaning order) meal is eaten as
the story of the Exodus out of Egypt is retold.
Every biblical feast has special foods associated with it, but food
plays a major role in the celebration of Passover. In fact, the entire
celebration revolves around the partaking or prohibition of specific
foods.
During Passover, leavened food is not eaten. That means that for eight
days no bread is eaten, nor anything else which is leavened. In Israel,
the grocery stores don't even sell bread, cake, flour, pasta, yeast,
etc. Since leaven can also be interpreted to mean those foods which
expand when cooked, rice, corn and beans are also not eaten by many. For
eight days, unleavened bread, called matzah, which is often called the
"bread of affliction," is eaten. The matzah is a reminder of the bread
which was hastily prepared by the children of Israel as they departed
from Egypt.
Not only is leaven not eaten, but all leaven must be removed from the
home. In the weeks leading up to Passover, every Jewish home undergoes a
thorough cleaning to remove even the smallest crumb of leaven. Every
item of clothing is taken outside, pockets are turned inside out, and
then the garments are vigorously shaken to remove every last crumb. In
religious neighborhoods, large vats of boiling water can been seen on
the street corners. Housewives line up to boil their pots and pans,
thereby removing any possible leaven. This is spring cleaning at the
highest degree! No corner is left untouched.
On the last afternoon before the beginning of Passover, a ceremonial
search of the home for any unnoticed leaven. Of course a small amount is
left to find. These last few crumbs are swept up with a feather and
taken outside to be burned.
Finally the home is clean! All leaven has been removed and the Seder
feast can begin. The story of God's miraculous deliverance of the Jewish
people from slavery in Egypt is told in great detail. Symbolic foods are
eaten to emphasize various sections of the story. Maror (bitter herbs)
symbolize the bitter lot of the Jews in Egypt; karpas (parsley), dipped
in salt water, symbolizes the coming spring and also recalls the tears
of servitude; a roasted egg symbolizes life; the shank bone of a lamb
represents the lamb eaten before fleeing from Egypt; and haroset
represents the mortar used to make bricks. Our favorite dish is the
haroset, which is really delicious. It is sweet to taste, which reminds
the participants that even in slavery, God was still with them. I hope
you will enjoy this recipe.
There is much more to the Passover story than can be told in this short
column. If you have an opportunity to attend a Passover seder, run,
don't walk. It will be an event to remember. In Clarence Wagner's new
book, Lessons from the Land of the Bible, one chapter is devoted to the
teaching of the Passover Last Supper Connection. I heartily recommend
it.
"Divin Marquis" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.29.16.50.14.891012@127.0.0.1...
: 1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food
should
: be eaten.
:
: Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's
unleavened.
: What gives?
:
: 2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
: mentions the fact that chicken à la crème is offlimit, yet chicken
don't
: make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
: refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
: animal in HER mother's milk.
:
: The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
: mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually
veal
: or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings à la crème,
or
: were there flying cows during Abraham's times?
:
:
: I'm asking this because my roommates are Jewish, and quite clueless
about
: their faith. They could ask their rabbi, I guess, but they don't ever
: go to a place of worship; they just make the huge sacrifice of not
: eating pork. I'm trying to help here.
:
: Thanks in advance.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Riain Barton/øéòéï áøúåï" |
|
| Title: Re: Pesach and Jewish food in general |
29 Apr 2005 03:18:04 PM |
|
|
http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm
Kashrut: Jewish Dietary Laws
Level: Intermediate
Kashrut is the body of Jewish law dealing with what foods we can and
cannot eat and how those foods must be prepared and eaten. "Kashrut"
comes from the Hebrew root Kaf-Shin-Resh, meaning fit, proper or
correct. It is the same root as the more commonly known word "kosher,"
which describes food that meets these standards. The word "kosher" can
also be used, and often is used, to describe ritual objects that are
made in accordance with Jewish law and are fit for ritual use.
There is no such thing as "kosher-style" food. Kosher is not a style of
cooking. Chinese food can be kosher if it is prepared in accordance with
Jewish law, and there are many fine kosher Chinese restaurants in
Philadelphia and New York. Traditional Ashkenazic Jewish foods like
knishes, bagels, blintzes, and matzah ball soup can all be non-kosher if
not prepared in accordance with Jewish law. When a restaurant calls
itself "kosher-style," it usually means that the restaurant serves these
traditional Jewish foods, and it almost invariably means that the food
is not actually kosher.
Food that is not kosher is commonly referred to as treyf (lit. torn,
from the commandment not to eat animals that have been torn by other
animals).
Why Do We Observe the Laws of Kashrut?
Many modern Jews think that the laws of kashrut are simply primitive
health regulations that have become obsolete with modern methods of food
preparation. There is no question that some of the dietary laws have
some beneficial health effects. For example, the laws regarding kosher
slaughter are so sanitary that kosher butchers and slaughterhouses have
been exempted from many USDA regulations.
However, health is not the only reason for Jewish dietary laws. Many of
the laws of kashrut have no known connection with health. To the best of
our modern scientific knowledge, there is no reason why camel or rabbit
meat (both treyf) is any less healthy than cow or goat meat. In
addition, some of the health benefits to be derived from kashrut were
not made obsolete by the refrigerator. For example, there is some
evidence that eating meat and dairy together interferes with digestion,
and no modern food preparation technique reproduces the health benefit
of the kosher law of eating them separately.
In recent years, several secular sources that have seriously looked into
this matter have acknowledged that health does not explain these
prohibitions. Some have suggested that the prohibitions are instead
derived from environmental considerations. For example, a camel (which
is not kosher) is more useful as a beast of burden than as a source of
food. In the Middle Eastern climate, the pig consumes a quantity of food
that is disproportional to its value as a food source. But again, these
are not reasons that come from Jewish tradition.
The short answer to why Jews observe these laws is: because the Torah
says so. The Torah does not specify any reason for these laws, and for a
Torah-observant, traditional Jew, there is no need for any other reason.
Some have suggested that the laws of kashrut fall into the category of
"chukkim," laws for which there is no reason. We show our obedience to
G-d by following these laws even though we do not know the reason.
Others, however, have tried to ascertain G-d's reason for imposing these
laws.
In his book "To Be a Jew" (an excellent resource on traditional
Judaism), Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin suggests that the dietary laws are
designed as a call to holiness. The ability to distinguish between right
and wrong, good and evil, pure and defiled, the sacred and the profane,
is very important in Judaism. Imposing rules on what you can and cannot
eat ingrains that kind of self control, requiring us to learn to control
even our most basic, primal instincts.
Donin also points out that the laws of kashrut elevate the simple act of
eating into a religious ritual. The Jewish dinner table is often
compared to the Temple altar in rabbinic literature. A Jew who observes
the laws of kashrut cannot eat a meal without being reminded of the fact
that he is a Jew,
How Difficult is it to Keep Kosher?
People who do not keep kosher often tell me how difficult it is.
Actually, keeping kosher is not particularly difficult in and of itself;
what makes it difficult to keep kosher is the fact that the rest of the
world does not do so.
As we shall see below, the basic underlying rules are fairly simple. If
you buy your meat at a kosher butcher and buy only kosher certified
products at the market, the only thing you need to think about is the
separation of meat and dairy.
Keeping kosher only becomes difficult when you try to eat in a
non-kosher restaurant, or at the home of a person who does not keep
kosher. In those situations, your lack of knowledge about your host's
ingredients and the food preparation techniques make it very difficult
to keep kosher. Some commentators have pointed out, however, that this
may well have been part of what G-d had in mind: to make it more
difficult for us to socialize with those who do not share our religion.
General Rules
Although the details of kashrut are extensive, the laws all derive from
a few fairly simple, straightforward rules:
1.. Certain animals may not be eaten at all. This restriction includes
the flesh, organs, eggs and milk of the forbidden animals.
2.. Of the animals that may be eaten, the birds and mammals must be
killed in accordance with Jewish law.
3.. All blood must be drained from the meat or broiled out of it
before it is eaten.
4.. Certain parts of permitted animals may not be eaten.
5.. Meat (the flesh of birds and mammals) cannot be eaten with dairy.
Fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables and grains can be eaten with either meat
or dairy. (According to some views, fish may not be eaten with meat).
6.. Utensils that have come into contact with meat may not be used
with dairy, and vice versa. Utensils that have come into contact with
non-kosher food may not be used with kosher food. This applies only
where the contact occurred while the food was hot.
7.. Grape products made by non-Jews may not be eaten.
The Details
Animals that may not be eaten
Of the "beasts of the earth" (which basically refers to land mammals
with the exception of swarming rodents), you may eat any animal that has
cloven hooves and chews its cud. Lev. 11:3; Deut. 14:6. Any land mammal
that does not have both of these qualities is forbidden. The Torah
specifies that the camel, the rock badger, the hare and the pig are not
kosher because each lacks one of these two qualifications. Sheep,
cattle, goats and deer are kosher.
Of the things that are in the waters, you may eat anything that has fins
and scales. Lev. 11:9; Deut. 14:9. Thus, shellfish such as lobsters,
oysters, shrimp, clams and crabs are all forbidden. Fish like tuna,
carp, salmon and herring are all permitted.
For birds, the criteria is less clear. The Torah lists forbidden birds
(Lev. 11:13-19; Deut. 14:11-18), but does not specify why these
particular birds are forbidden. All of the birds on the list are birds
of prey or scavengers, thus the rabbis inferred that this was the basis
for the distinction. Other birds are permitted, such as chicken, geese,
ducks and turkeys.
Of the "winged swarming things" (winged insects), a few are specifically
permitted (Lev. 11:22), but the Sages are no longer certain which ones
they are, so all have been forbidden.
Rodents, reptiles, amphibians, and insects (except as mentioned above)
are all forbidden. Lev. 11:29-30, 42-43.
Some authorities require a post-mortem examination of the lungs of
cattle, to determine whether the lungs are free from adhesions. If the
lungs are free from such adhesions, the animal is deemed "glatt" (that
is, "smooth"). In certain circumstances, an animal can be kosher without
being glatt; however, the stringency of keeping "glatt kosher" has
become increasingly common in recent years.
As mentioned above, any product derived from these forbidden animals,
such as their milk, eggs, fat, or organs, also cannot be eaten. Rennet,
an enzyme used to harden cheese, is often obtained from non-kosher
animals, thus kosher hard cheese can be difficult to find.
Kosher slaughtering
The mammals and birds that may be eaten must be slaughtered in
accordance with Jewish law. (Deut. 12:21). We may not eat animals that
died of natural causes (Deut. 14:21) or that were killed by other
animals. In addition, the animal must have no disease or flaws in the
organs at the time of slaughter. These restrictions do not apply to
fish; only to the flocks and herds (Num. 11:22).
Ritual slaughter is known as shechitah, and the person who performs the
slaughter is called a shochet, both from the Hebrew root Shin-Chet-Tav,
meaning to destroy or kill. The method of slaughter is a quick, deep
stroke across the throat with a perfectly sharp blade with no nicks or
unevenness. This method is painless, causes unconsciousness within two
seconds, and is widely recognized as the most humane method of slaughter
possible.
Another advantage of shechitah is that ensures rapid, complete draining
of the blood, which is also necessary to render the meat kosher.
The shochet is not simply a butcher; he must be a pious man,
well-trained in Jewish law, particularly as it relates to kashrut. In
smaller, more remote communities, the rabbi and the shochet were often
the same person.
Draining of Blood
The Torah prohibits consumption of blood. Lev. 7:26-27; Lev. 17:10-14.
This is the only dietary law that has a reason specified in Torah: we do
not eat blood because the life of the animal is contained in the blood.
This applies only to the blood of birds and mammals, not to fish blood.
Thus, it is necessary to remove all blood from the flesh of kosher
animals.
The first step in this process occurs at the time of slaughter. As
discussed above, shechitah allows for rapid draining of most of the
blood.
The remaining blood must be removed, either by broiling or soaking and
salting. Liver may only be kashered by the broiling method, because it
has so much blood in it and such complex blood vessels. This final
process must be completed within 72 hours after slaughter, and before
the meat is frozen or ground. Most butchers and all frozen food vendors
take care of the soaking and salting for you, but you should always
check this when you are buying someplace you are unfamiliar with.
An egg that contains a blood spot may not be eaten. This isn't very
common, but I find them once in a while. It is a good idea to break an
egg into a container and check it before you put it into a heated pan,
because if you put a blood-stained egg into a heated pan, the pan
becomes non-kosher.
Forbidden Fats and Nerves
The sciatic nerve and its adjoining blood vessels may not be eaten. The
process of removing this nerve is time consuming and not cost-effective,
so most American slaughterers simply sell the hind quarters to
non-kosher butchers.
A certain kind of fat, known as chelev, which surrounds the vital organs
and the liver, may not be eaten. Kosher butchers remove this. Modern
scientists have found biochemical differences between this type of fat
and the permissible fat around the muscles and under the skin.
Separation of Meat and Dairy
On three separate occasions, the Torah tells us not to "boil a kid in
its mother's milk." (Ex. 23:19; Ex. 34:26; Deut. 14:21). The Oral Torah
explains that this passage prohibits eating meat and dairy together. The
rabbis extended this prohibition to include not eating milk and poultry
together. In addition, the Talmud prohibits cooking meat and fish
together or serving them on the same plates, because it is considered to
be unhealthy. It is, however, permissible to eat fish and dairy
together, and it is quite common. It is also permissible to eat dairy
and eggs together.
This separation includes not only the foods themselves, but the
utensils, pots and pans with which they are cooked, the plates and
flatware from which they are eaten, the dishwashers or dishpans in which
they are cleaned, and the towels on which they are dried. A kosher
household will have at least two sets of pots, pans and dishes: one for
meat and one for dairy. See Utensils below for more details.
One must wait a significant amount of time between eating meat and
dairy. Opinions differ, and vary from three to six hours. This is
because fatty residues and meat particles tend to cling to the mouth.
From dairy to meat, however, one need only rinse one's mouth and eat a
neutral solid like bread, unless the dairy product in question is also
of a type that tends to stick in the mouth.
The Yiddish words fleishik (meat), milchik (dairy) and pareve (neutral)
are commonly used to describe food or utensils that fall into one of
those categories.
Note that even the smallest quantity of dairy (or meat) in something
renders it entirely dairy (or meat) for purposes of kashrut. For
example, most margarines are dairy for kosher purposes, because they
contain a small quantity of whey or other dairy products to give it a
dairy-like taste. Animal fat is considered meat for purposes of kashrut.
You should read the ingredients very carefully, even if the product is
kosher-certified.
Utensils
Utensils (pots, pans, plates, flatware, etc., etc.) must also be kosher.
A utensil picks up the kosher "status" (meat, dairy, pareve, or treyf)
of the food that is cooked in it or eaten off of it, and transmits that
status back to the next food that is cooked in it or eaten off of it.
Thus, if you cook chicken soup in a saucepan, the pan becomes meat. If
you thereafter use the same saucepan to heat up some warm milk, the
fleishig status of the pan is transmitted to the milk, and the milchig
status of the milk is transmitted to the pan, making both the pan and
the milk a forbidden mixture.
Kosher status can be transmitted from the food to the utensil or from
the utensil to the food only in the presence of heat, thus if you are
eating cold food in a non-kosher establishment, the condition of the
plates is not an issue. Likewise, you could use the same knife to slice
cold cuts and cheese, as long as you clean it in between, but this is
not really a recommended procedure, because it increases the likelihood
of mistakes.
Stove tops and sinks routinely become non-kosher utensils, because they
routinely come in contact with both meat and dairy in the presence of
heat. It is necessary, therefore, to use dishpans when cleaning dishes
(don't soak them directly in the sink) and to use separate spoon rests
and trivets when putting things down on the stove top.
Dishwashers are a kashrut problem. If you are going to use a dishwasher
in a kosher home, you either need to have separate dish racks or you
need to run the dishwasher in between meat and dairy loads.
You should use separate towels and pot holders for meat and dairy.
Routine laundering kashers such items, so you can simply launder them
between using them for meat and dairy.
Certain kinds of utensils can be "kashered" if you make a mistake and
use it with both meat and dairy. Consult a rabbi for guidance if this
situation occurs.
Grape Products
The restrictions on grape products derive from the laws against using
products of idolatry. Wine was commonly used in the rituals of all
ancient religions, and wine was routinely sanctified for pagan purposes
while it was being processed. For this reason, use of wines and other
grape products made by non-Jews was prohibited. (Whole grapes are not a
problem, nor are whole grapes in fruit cocktail).
For the most part, this rule only affects wine and grape juice. This
becomes a concern with many fruit drinks or fruit-flavored drinks, which
are often sweetened with grape juice. You may also notice that some
baking powders are not kosher, because baking powder is sometimes made
with cream of tartar, a by-product of wine making.
Kashrut Certification
The task of keeping kosher is greatly simplified by widespread kashrut
certification. Products that have been certified as kosher are labeled
with a mark called a hekhsher (from the same Hebrew root as the word
"kosher") that ordinarily identifies the rabbi or organization that
certified the product. Approximately 3/4 of all prepackaged foods have
some kind of kosher certification, and most major brands have reliable
Orthodox certification.
The symbols at right are all widely-accepted hekhshers commonly found
on products throughout the United States. These symbols are registered
tradmarks of kosher certification organizations, and cannot be placed on
a food label without the organization's permission. Click the symbols to
visit the websites of these organizations. With a little practice, it is
very easy to spot these hekhshers on food labels, usually near the
product name, occasionally near the list of ingredients. There are many
other certifications available, of varying degrees of strictness.
The most controversial certification is the K, a plain letter K found on
products asserted to be kosher. A letter of the alphabet cannot be
trademarked, so any manufacturer can put a K on a product. For example,
Jell-O brand gelatin puts a K on its product, even though every reliable
Orthodox authority agrees that Jell-O is not kosher. Most other kosher
certification marks are trademarked and cannot be used without the
permission of the certifying organization. The certifying organization
assures you that the product is kosher according to their standards, but
standards vary.
It is becoming increasingly common for kosher certifying organizations
to indicate whether the product is fleishig (meat), milchig (dairy) or
pareve (neutral). If the product is dairy, it will frequently have a D
or the word Dairy next to the kashrut symbol. If it is meat, the word
Meat or an M may appear near the symbol. If it is pareve, the word
Pareve (or Parev) may appear near the symbol (Not a P! That means kosher
for Passover!). If no such clarification appears, you should read the
ingredient list carefully to determine whether the product is meat,
dairy or pareve.
Kosher certification organizations charge manufacturers a small fee for
kosher certification. This fee covers the expenses of researching the
ingredients in the product and inspecting the facilities used to
manufacture the product. There are some who have complained that these
certification costs increase the cost of the products to non-Jewish,
non-kosher consumers; however, the actual cost of such certification is
so small relative to the overall cost of production that most
manufacturers cannot even calculate it. The cost is more than justified
by the increase in sales it produces: although observant Jews are only a
small fragment of the marketplace, kosher certification is also relied
upon by many Muslims (see: http://www.muslimconsumergroup.com/hfs.htm),
vegetarians (although this is not fool-proof; dairy and parev foods may
contain eggs or fish; but if it isn't kosher, it probably isn't
vegetarian), some Seventh Day Adventists, as well as many other people
who simply think that kosher products are cleaner, healthier or better
than non-kosher products.
Do All Jews Keep Kosher?
About 25% to 30% of Jews in America keep kosher to one extent or
another. This includes the vast majority of people who identify
themselves as Orthodox, as well as many Conservative and
Reconstructionist Jews and some Reform Jews.
However, the standards that are observed vary substantially from one
person to another. According to the 1990 National Jewish Population
Survey (NJPS), only about 17% of Jewish families eat kosher meat all the
time. See Table 28. Others keep kosher more strictly some times than
others.
The strictest people will eat only foods that have reliable Orthodox
kosher certification, eating only glatt-kosher certified meats and
specially certified dairy products. They will not eat cooked food in a
restaurant unless the restaurant has reliable Orthodox certification,
and they are unlikely to accept an invitation to dinner from anyone who
is not known to share their high standards.
Others are more lenient. Some will "ingredients read," accepting grocery
store items that do not contain any identifiably non-kosher ingredients.
Some will eat cooked food in a restaurant or a non-kosher home, as long
as the meal is either vegetarian or uses only kosher meat and no dairy
products. Some will eat non-kosher meat in restaurants, but only if the
meat comes from a kosher animal and is not served with dairy products.
Many of these more lenient people keep stricter standards in their homes
than they do in restaurants or in other people's homes.
As rabbi/humorist Jack Moline noted, "Everyone who keeps kosher will
tell you that his version is the only correct version. Everyone else is
either a fanatic or a heretic." (Growing Up Jewish, 1987). There is a
lot of truth in this humorous observation. I have no doubt that I will
receive mail calling me a heretic for even acknowledging the existence
of lower standards.
Kosher Links
You can find more information about kashrut at the websites of major
kosher certification organizations.
The Orthodox Union, which is responsible for "OU" certification, has
some excellent information on its website, including a kosher primer, an
explanation of their kosher policy, a philosophical discussion about
"thinking kosher" and a questions and answers section. (Please note: the
"Judaism 101" listed on some of their pages is not this website and has
no connection with this website).
The Star-K Kosher Certification organization also has an excellent
website. The wonderful thing about Star-K is, they give you an
incredible amount of detail about the research that they put into
determining whether a product is kosher. They tell you what products may
be used without kosher certification, and they explain why such products
can or cannot be used without kosher certification, giving complete
detail about the research that went into making their determination. It
also has articles about kashering appliances, and other useful
information.
KosherQuest has a searchable database of kosher products as well as an
extensive list of reliable kosher symbols and other interesting things.
"Divin Marquis" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.29.16.50.14.891012@127.0.0.1...
: 1. It is my understanding that, during Pesach, only unleavened food
should
: be eaten.
:
: Pasta is verboten, apparently for this reason, but ... it's
unleavened.
: What gives?
:
: 2. In the movie "The Believer", Danny Balint, the jewish/nazi boy,
: mentions the fact that chicken à la crème is offlimit, yet chicken
don't
: make milk ... obviously. If I'm not mistaken, not mixing milk & meat
: refers to that commandment where it says you should'nt (cook/eat) an
: animal in HER mother's milk.
:
: The only explanation I've been given so far is that it's to prevent
: mistakes, where someone would think it's chicken while it's actually
veal
: or somesuch. Does that mean it's ok to eat chicken wings à la crème,
or
: were there f | |
