| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"GoDrex" |
| Date: |
10 Oct 2006 06:32:24 PM |
| Object: |
question about jesus (and christians) |
Since I've been thinking a lot about torture lately, I started wondering
about christians and Jesus. The President of the USA is a born again
christian, and he has a lot of christian supporters in the USA. I was
wondering how they reconcile certain things Jesus said in the bible with
modern life in america (and elsewhere).
Here's a few things I found online that Jesus said:
-----------
[quote]
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit murder"
and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I say to you
that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the
court; and whoever says to his brother, "You good-for-nothing," shall be
guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, "You fool," shall be
guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth." But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps
you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue
you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to
go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn
away from him who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your
enemy." But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute
you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes
His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous
and the unrighteous.
Pray in secret
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand
and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be
seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you,
when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your
Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret
will reward you.
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father
will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father
will not forgive your transgressions.
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust
destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves
treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves
do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will
be also.
No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the
other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve
God and wealth.
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich
man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
Oh yeah and the "do unto others.." thing..
---------------
So I guess what I'm wondering is do people take these ideas seriously or
just pay them lip service? Or is there a way to spin them into meaning
something else?
.
|
|
| User: "GoDrex" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
11 Oct 2006 06:46:20 PM |
|
|
"GoDrex" <godrex35@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3B-cnepfrq6kerbYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Since I've been thinking a lot about torture lately, I started wondering
about christians and Jesus. The President of the USA is a born again
christian, and he has a lot of christian supporters in the USA. I was
wondering how they reconcile certain things Jesus said in the bible with
modern life in america (and elsewhere).
Here's a few things I found online that Jesus said:
-----------
[quote]
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit murder"
and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I say to
you
that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the
court; and whoever says to his brother, "You good-for-nothing," shall be
guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, "You fool," shall be
guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth." But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps
you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to
sue
you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you
to
go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn
away from him who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate
your
enemy." But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who
persecute
you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He
causes
His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous
and the unrighteous.
Pray in secret
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to
stand
and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be
seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you,
when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your
Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret
will reward you.
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father
will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father
will not forgive your transgressions.
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust
destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves
treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where
thieves
do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart
will
be also.
No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the
other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot
serve
God and wealth.
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a
rich
man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
Oh yeah and the "do unto others.." thing..
---------------
So I guess what I'm wondering is do people take these ideas seriously or
just pay them lip service? Or is there a way to spin them into meaning
something else?
I guess no one can provide any kind of responce other than the claim that
Bush isn't born again?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
11 Oct 2006 09:25:08 PM |
|
|
In article <g1-dnZY8hY9hprDYUSdV9g@ptd.net>, "GoDrex"
<godrex35@hotmail.com> wrote:
"GoDrex" <godrex35@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3B-cnepfrq6kerbYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Since I've been thinking a lot about torture lately, I started wondering
about christians and Jesus. The President of the USA is a born again
christian, and he has a lot of christian supporters in the USA. I was
wondering how they reconcile certain things Jesus said in the bible with
modern life in america (and elsewhere).
Here's a few things I found online that Jesus said:
-----------
[quote]
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit murder"
and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I say to
you
that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the
court; and whoever says to his brother, "You good-for-nothing," shall be
guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, "You fool," shall be
guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth." But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps
you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to
sue
you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you
to
go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn
away from him who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate
your
enemy." But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who
persecute
you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He
causes
His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous
and the unrighteous.
Pray in secret
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to
stand
and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be
seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you,
when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your
Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret
will reward you.
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father
will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father
will not forgive your transgressions.
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust
destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves
treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where
thieves
do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart
will
be also.
No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the
other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot
serve
God and wealth.
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a
rich
man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
Oh yeah and the "do unto others.." thing..
---------------
So I guess what I'm wondering is do people take these ideas seriously or
just pay them lip service? Or is there a way to spin them into meaning
something else?
I guess no one can provide any kind of responce other than the claim that
Bush isn't born again?
No, Reuben summed it up quite nicely, perhaps you just aren't listening to
what you don't want to hear in response to a drive by Christophobe
grenade.
--
"-----------------"
May God Bless You
Michael
.
|
|
|
| User: "GoDrex" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
11 Oct 2006 10:42:01 PM |
|
|
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1110061725080001@192.168.1.100...
In article <g1-dnZY8hY9hprDYUSdV9g@ptd.net>, "GoDrex"
<godrex35@hotmail.com> wrote:
"GoDrex" <godrex35@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3B-cnepfrq6kerbYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Since I've been thinking a lot about torture lately, I started
wondering
about christians and Jesus. The President of the USA is a born again
christian, and he has a lot of christian supporters in the USA. I was
wondering how they reconcile certain things Jesus said in the bible
with
modern life in america (and elsewhere).
Here's a few things I found online that Jesus said:
-----------
[quote]
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit
murder"
and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I say
to
you
that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the
court; and whoever says to his brother, "You good-for-nothing," shall
be
guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, "You fool," shall
be
guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth." But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever
slaps
you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants
to
sue
you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces
you
to
go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not
turn
away from him who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and
hate
your
enemy." But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who
persecute
you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He
causes
His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the
righteous
and the unrighteous.
Pray in secret
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to
stand
and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may
be
seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But
you,
when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to
your
Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in
secret
will reward you.
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly
Father
will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your
Father
will not forgive your transgressions.
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust
destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for
yourselves
treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where
thieves
do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart
will
be also.
No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love
the
other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot
serve
God and wealth.
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a
rich
man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
Oh yeah and the "do unto others.." thing..
---------------
So I guess what I'm wondering is do people take these ideas seriously
or
just pay them lip service? Or is there a way to spin them into meaning
something else?
I guess no one can provide any kind of responce other than the claim
that
Bush isn't born again?
No, Reuben summed it up quite nicely, perhaps you just aren't listening to
what you don't want to hear in response to a drive by Christophobe
grenade.
You mean this?
"joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
Not that I am going to agree or disagree with this statement, but the man
has professed Christianity publically.
Now when we point to someone like Eikleberry its a slam dunk identifying him
as reprobate, but on what strong evidence do you argue that the president's
claim is bogus?
------
I wasn't interested in whether he's born again or not and I didn't say his
claim was bogus, so I fail to see how Reuben replied to my post.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
12 Oct 2006 11:30:08 PM |
|
|
In article <JXydnbHmBK6k7rDYUSdV9g@ptd.net>, "GoDrex"
<godrex35@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1110061725080001@192.168.1.100...
In article <g1-dnZY8hY9hprDYUSdV9g@ptd.net>, "GoDrex"
<godrex35@hotmail.com> wrote:
"GoDrex" <godrex35@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3B-cnepfrq6kerbYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Since I've been thinking a lot about torture lately, I started
wondering
about christians and Jesus. The President of the USA is a born again
christian, and he has a lot of christian supporters in the USA. I was
wondering how they reconcile certain things Jesus said in the bible
with
modern life in america (and elsewhere).
Here's a few things I found online that Jesus said:
-----------
[quote]
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit
murder"
and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I say
to
you
that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the
court; and whoever says to his brother, "You good-for-nothing," shall
be
guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, "You fool," shall
be
guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth." But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever
slaps
you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants
to
sue
you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces
you
to
go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not
turn
away from him who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and
hate
your
enemy." But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who
persecute
you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He
causes
His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the
righteous
and the unrighteous.
Pray in secret
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to
stand
and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may
be
seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But
you,
when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to
your
Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in
secret
will reward you.
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly
Father
will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your
Father
will not forgive your transgressions.
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust
destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for
yourselves
treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where
thieves
do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart
will
be also.
No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love
the
other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot
serve
God and wealth.
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a
rich
man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
Oh yeah and the "do unto others.." thing..
---------------
So I guess what I'm wondering is do people take these ideas seriously
or
just pay them lip service? Or is there a way to spin them into meaning
something else?
I guess no one can provide any kind of responce other than the claim
that
Bush isn't born again?
No, Reuben summed it up quite nicely, perhaps you just aren't listening to
what you don't want to hear in response to a drive by Christophobe
grenade.
You mean this?
"joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
Not that I am going to agree or disagree with this statement, but the man
has professed Christianity publically.
What people profess publically is not always what they profess privately.
Now when we point to someone like Eikleberry its a slam dunk identifying him
as reprobate, but on what strong evidence do you argue that the president's
claim is bogus?
That is the question, he is free to hold the opinion that Bush is not
'born again', however, lacking proofs, it is merely an opinion.
------
I wasn't interested in whether he's born again or not and I didn't say his
claim was bogus, so I fail to see how Reuben replied to my post.
Perhaps you should read it again.
--
"-----------------"
May God Bless You
Michael
.
|
|
|
| User: "GoDrex" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
14 Oct 2006 08:01:39 PM |
|
|
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1210061930080001@192.168.1.100...
In article <JXydnbHmBK6k7rDYUSdV9g@ptd.net>, "GoDrex"
<godrex35@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1110061725080001@192.168.1.100...
In article <g1-dnZY8hY9hprDYUSdV9g@ptd.net>, "GoDrex"
<godrex35@hotmail.com> wrote:
"GoDrex" <godrex35@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3B-cnepfrq6kerbYUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Since I've been thinking a lot about torture lately, I started
wondering
about christians and Jesus. The President of the USA is a born
again
christian, and he has a lot of christian supporters in the USA. I
was
wondering how they reconcile certain things Jesus said in the
bible
with
modern life in america (and elsewhere).
Here's a few things I found online that Jesus said:
-----------
[quote]
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit
murder"
and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I
say
to
you
that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before
the
court; and whoever says to his brother, "You good-for-nothing,"
shall
be
guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, "You fool,"
shall
be
guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth
for a
tooth." But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but
whoever
slaps
you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone
wants
to
sue
you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever
forces
you
to
go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do
not
turn
away from him who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and
hate
your
enemy." But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who
persecute
you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for
He
causes
His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the
righteous
and the unrighteous.
Pray in secret
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they
love to
stand
and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they
may
be
seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
But
you,
when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray
to
your
Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in
secret
will reward you.
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly
Father
will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your
Father
will not forgive your transgressions.
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and
rust
destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for
yourselves
treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and
where
thieves
do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your
heart
will
be also.
No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and
love
the
other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You
cannot
serve
God and wealth.
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than
for a
rich
man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
Oh yeah and the "do unto others.." thing..
---------------
So I guess what I'm wondering is do people take these ideas
seriously
or
just pay them lip service? Or is there a way to spin them into
meaning
something else?
I guess no one can provide any kind of responce other than the claim
that
Bush isn't born again?
No, Reuben summed it up quite nicely, perhaps you just aren't
listening to
what you don't want to hear in response to a drive by Christophobe
grenade.
You mean this?
"joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
Not that I am going to agree or disagree with this statement, but the
man
has professed Christianity publically.
What people profess publically is not always what they profess privately.
Now when we point to someone like Eikleberry its a slam dunk identifying
him
as reprobate, but on what strong evidence do you argue that the
president's
claim is bogus?
That is the question, he is free to hold the opinion that Bush is not
'born again', however, lacking proofs, it is merely an opinion.
------
I wasn't interested in whether he's born again or not and I didn't say
his
claim was bogus, so I fail to see how Reuben replied to my post.
Perhaps you should read it again.
forget about the president!! forget I mentioned him in the first place. I
don't care about him and if he's born again or not.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
15 Oct 2006 06:25:03 AM |
|
|
GoDrex wrote:
Since I've been thinking a lot about torture lately, I started wondering
about christians and Jesus. The President of the USA is a born again
christian, and he has a lot of christian supporters in the USA. I was
wondering how they reconcile certain things Jesus said in the bible with
modern life in america (and elsewhere).
Here's a few things I found online that Jesus said:
-----------
[quote]
I will save you a lot of trouble.
The man referred to as 'Jesus' said none of these things
What you have extracted below are the scribblings of early myth and fable
writers.
this is more closer to the truth but the real facts we will never know:
CURTAIN RISES
[Menam, a Priest, is talking with his buddies in the temple. It is 'year two',
according to our current calendar]
ÒBrothers the flock are restless I'm tired of them asking me 'Where is the god
you keep wanting us to pray to', they keep insisting on seeing him"
Rastus, [another priest]:
"I have the same problem, it's getting me down, they keep saying 'Where is he,
produce him'. You know the Vishnus down the road have a wooden god in a hut for
everyone to see and more and more people are going there to pray these daysÓ
Influx [The Senior Priest]:
"Listen, let's invite that fella Jesus to join us, he is popular and he
preaches well. We'll say he is god's sonÓ.
Rastus. [Laughing]
ÒDon't be silly, how can we say that, gods don't send their sons down to
earth. How do we say he got here?Ó
Influx.
ÒEasy we tell them 'e was borne of a virgin.[scratches head] I'm sure we can
find one somewhere if we look hard enough.
Rastus.
That won't be much use, when 'e dies we'll have to start all over again and
find another 'son of a god' and they are not going to believe that stupid yarn
of yours twice over!
Influx.
Aaah but listen. [Chuckles] When 'e dies we'll hide him away in a cave, steal
the body in the middle of the night and then, listen to this, your gonna love
this, [nudges Rastus in the ribs, more chuckles] and then [hee hee] we'll tell
'em he floated slowly up into the sky to heaven just above the clouds [raises
arms and makes floating motions upwards] and that he now sits up there on the
right hand of god.
Fellas we'll have 'em in the palm of our hands for eternity.
[All priests together]:
"Spontaneous laughter, cheering plus the odd guffawÓ.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit murder"
and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I say to you
that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the
court; and whoever says to his brother, "You good-for-nothing," shall be
guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, "You fool," shall be
guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth." But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps
you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue
you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to
go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn
away from him who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your
enemy." But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute
you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes
His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous
and the unrighteous.
Pray in secret
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand
and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be
seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you,
when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your
Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret
will reward you.
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father
will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father
will not forgive your transgressions.
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust
destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves
treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves
do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will
be also.
No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the
other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve
God and wealth.
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich
man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
Oh yeah and the "do unto others.." thing..
---------------
So I guess what I'm wondering is do people take these ideas seriously or
just pay them lip service? Or is there a way to spin them into meaning
something else?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "joe" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
10 Oct 2006 08:13:07 PM |
|
|
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:32:24 -0400, "GoDrex" <godrex35@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Since I've been thinking a lot about torture lately, I started wondering
about christians and Jesus. The President of the USA is a born again
christian, and he has a lot of christian supporters in the USA. I was
wondering how they reconcile certain things Jesus said in the bible with
modern life in america (and elsewhere).
Here's a few things I found online that Jesus said:
-----------
[quote]
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit murder"
and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I say to you
that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the
court; and whoever says to his brother, "You good-for-nothing," shall be
guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, "You fool," shall be
guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth." But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps
you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue
you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to
go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn
away from him who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your
enemy." But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute
you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes
His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous
and the unrighteous.
Pray in secret
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand
and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be
seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you,
when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your
Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret
will reward you.
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father
will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father
will not forgive your transgressions.
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust
destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves
treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves
do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will
be also.
No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the
other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve
God and wealth.
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich
man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
Oh yeah and the "do unto others.." thing..
---------------
So I guess what I'm wondering is do people take these ideas seriously or
just pay them lip service? Or is there a way to spin them into meaning
something else?
.
|
|
|
| User: "GoDrex" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
10 Oct 2006 09:54:32 PM |
|
|
"joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:32:24 -0400, "GoDrex" <godrex35@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Since I've been thinking a lot about torture lately, I started wondering
about christians and Jesus. The President of the USA is a born again
christian,
he's not? I thought he was. Wikipedia says:
Bush credits a reinvigorated faith life as helping him abandon alcohol (in
1986), and face other personal and professional difficulties. Bush began
studying the Bible and Christian philosophy, and participating in church and
community study groups. Following a personal meeting and exchange with
Reverend Billy Graham, he became a born-again Christian.[7]
7. ^ a b Romano, Lois, George Lardner Jr. "Bush's Life-Changing Year", The
Washington Post, 1999-07-25. Retrieved on 2006-06-27.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "LoneStar" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
10 Oct 2006 09:46:59 PM |
|
|
"joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
Who the Hell are you to make such a judgment? Idiot.
EW
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Reuben Hick" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
10 Oct 2006 08:55:01 PM |
|
|
"joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
Not that I am going to agree or disagree with this statement, but the man
has professed Christianity publically.
Now when we point to someone like Eikleberry its a slam dunk identifying him
as reprobate, but on what strong evidence do you argue that the president's
claim is bogus?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ghod" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
10 Oct 2006 09:17:59 PM |
|
|
"Reuben Hick" <ReubenHick@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FMTWg.15241$7I1.11560@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
"joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
Not that I am going to agree or disagree with this statement, but
the man
has professed Christianity publically.
Now when we point to someone like Eikleberry its a slam dunk
identifying him
as reprobate, but on what strong evidence do you argue that the
president's
claim is bogus?
It's that sound of massed pipes approaching.....
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "TDL" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
10 Oct 2006 09:43:57 PM |
|
|
"Reuben Hick" <ReubenHick@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FMTWg.15241$7I1.11560@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
"joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
Not that I am going to agree or disagree with this statement, but the man
has professed Christianity publically.
Now when we point to someone like Eikleberry its a slam dunk identifying
him as reprobate, but on what strong evidence do you argue that the
president's claim is bogus?
Bush is a Christian in the same way Ben Laden is a Muslim. Christianity and
Islam have in common that both religions have inspired some to charitable
works and lead many to work for the betterment of their fellow humans and
both religions have also inspired others to heinous acts of death and
destruction.
Jesus, himself, spoke about both kinds of Christians, one set of Christians
gave food to the hungry, water to the thirsty, comfort to the sick and were
actually amazed that Christ found them acceptable and the other set with
held food from the hungry, water to the thirsty and ignored the sick and
were amazed when Christ rejected them. It is the Fundamentalist who is
"assured of salvation" who is most likely to be rejected.
--
Terrell D Lewis
http://www.songbookz.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Reuben Hick" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
14 Oct 2006 03:36:30 PM |
|
|
"TDL" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote in message
news:xuUWg.9187$TV3.590@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
|
| "Reuben Hick" <ReubenHick@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| news:FMTWg.15241$7I1.11560@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
| > "joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
| > news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
| >
| >> the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
| >
| > Not that I am going to agree or disagree with this statement, but the man
| > has professed Christianity publically.
| >
| > Now when we point to someone like Eikleberry its a slam dunk identifying
| > him as reprobate, but on what strong evidence do you argue that the
| > president's claim is bogus?
| >
|
| Bush is a Christian in the same way Ben Laden is a Muslim. Christianity and
| Islam have in common that both religions have inspired some to charitable
| works and lead many to work for the betterment of their fellow humans and
| both religions have also inspired others to heinous acts of death and
| destruction.
The fatal problem with your analysis is that you treat two monotheistic
"religions" as if they are somewhat identical and only differ in the minutia.
(before answering, consider the response to the next statement)
First let me break down the topic relevant external difference between Islam in
general, the American Religion (which is 90% of what you see today mislabeled as
Christianity) and true Biblical Christianity.
In Islam, all works are for the glory of Allah. They don't care about you or
your feelings. If Allah said right now to hack your head off with a rusty
spoon, in order for them to please Allah, your head comes off before night-fall.
Allah likes heads hacked off of people, that is why Islamic nations with devout
Muslims are stone-aged toilets.
The American Religion is basically an estrogen pool. Imagine soccer moms
running a religion - that's the American Religion. Everyone is supposed to be
nice and not say anything that might hurt someone's feelings. Its sort of like
Judaism with its responsibilities but with none of the bothersome and
inconvenient rites and observances. Church is supposed to be fun, fun fun.
Calvinist Christianity is Biblical Christianity that teaches that all of your
works before being "saved" are worthless no matter how altruistic and beneficial
society deems them because serving the world is not priority one, it is serving
God. How Christianity's God differs from Allah is that God does everything for
a Purpose that leads to an End. The rules are pretty clear, and Christians
individually are to be these meek sheep you keep expecting all Christians to be,
yet the government, even if made up of Christians, can still hack heads off if
need be.
| Jesus, himself, spoke about both kinds of Christians, one set of Christians
| gave food to the hungry, water to the thirsty, comfort to the sick and were
| actually amazed that Christ found them acceptable and the other set with
| held food from the hungry, water to the thirsty and ignored the sick and
| were amazed when Christ rejected them. It is the Fundamentalist who is
| "assured of salvation" who is most likely to be rejected.
I may be wrong, but your statement appears that you make entry into the "true
Christian" club a function of works. The Bible says that Christianity's
membership is not based on works, its based on faith. Romans Catholics might
add works to faith, but all flavors of Christianity claims that faith is that
which is required. It is at this juncture where true christian doctrine is
radically different from islam and that the popular Rick Warren/Joel Osteen
so-called Christianity that I call the American Religion.
The American Religion teaches that if you go to their clubhouse and fill out a
3x5 "I wanna be a Christian card" or if you raise your hand when everyone's
eyes are closed, then you are a Christian because you supposedly used your free
will correctly at that moment. This is heretical and has grown from the days
of Charles Finney into this monster which exploits gullible fools.
The Bible, and this is the fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith (see
Augustine,Luther,Calvin etc) that faith is a gift from God and only certain
unspecified people will be given this faith. Because this faith is
transforming, true believers should do those things you specified above.
I can't and I won't defend Islam or the Rick Warren/Bob Tilton/Adrian
Rogers/Joel Osteen religion since they all lead to hell. What I can say is that
your caricature of true Christianity is invalid because
1) Its not works based
2) God elects.
3) Its for God's glory, not man's luxury.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Michael" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
11 Oct 2006 09:46:19 PM |
|
|
In article <xuUWg.9187$TV3.590@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, "TDL"
<NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote:
"Reuben Hick" <ReubenHick@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FMTWg.15241$7I1.11560@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
"joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
Not that I am going to agree or disagree with this statement, but the man
has professed Christianity publically.
Now when we point to someone like Eikleberry its a slam dunk identifying
him as reprobate, but on what strong evidence do you argue that the
president's claim is bogus?
Bush is a Christian in the same way Ben Laden is a Muslim.
How so with specificity?
Christianity and
Islam have in common that both religions have inspired some to charitable
works and lead many to work for the betterment of their fellow humans and
both religions have also inspired others to heinous acts of death and
destruction.
Perhaps Christianity has inspired ALL to charitable works and the
betterment of their fellow humans, since there would be little evidence to
convict anyone who didn't of being a Christian.
Jesus, himself, spoke about both kinds of Christians, one set of Christians
gave food to the hungry, water to the thirsty, comfort to the sick and were
actually amazed that Christ found them acceptable and the other set with
held food from the hungry, water to the thirsty and ignored the sick and
were amazed when Christ rejected them.
Where does it say that He affirmed the latter as Christians?
It is the Fundamentalist who is
"assured of salvation" who is most likely to be rejected.
Well, at least that is one narrow minded, exclusive, religiously bigoted
and prejudicial opinion about the unique diversity of fundamentalists.
--
"-----------------"
May God Bless You
Michael
.
|
|
|
| User: "TDL" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
11 Oct 2006 10:21:19 PM |
|
|
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1110061746190001@192.168.1.100...
In article <xuUWg.9187$TV3.590@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, "TDL"
<NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote:
"Reuben Hick" <ReubenHick@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FMTWg.15241$7I1.11560@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
"joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
Not that I am going to agree or disagree with this statement, but the
man
has professed Christianity publically.
Now when we point to someone like Eikleberry its a slam dunk
identifying
him as reprobate, but on what strong evidence do you argue that the
president's claim is bogus?
Bush is a Christian in the same way Ben Laden is a Muslim.
How so with specificity?
Christianity and
Islam have in common that both religions have inspired some to charitable
works and lead many to work for the betterment of their fellow humans and
both religions have also inspired others to heinous acts of death and
destruction.
Perhaps Christianity has inspired ALL to charitable works and the
betterment of their fellow humans, since there would be little evidence to
convict anyone who didn't of being a Christian.
Jesus, himself, spoke about both kinds of Christians, one set of
Christians
gave food to the hungry, water to the thirsty, comfort to the sick and
were
actually amazed that Christ found them acceptable and the other set with
held food from the hungry, water to the thirsty and ignored the sick and
were amazed when Christ rejected them.
Where does it say that He affirmed the latter as Christians?
At the time, the name, "Christian," did not exist, but these were people who
in the one instance believed themselves to be followers of Christ, hence,
early members of the group who would one day be called, "Christians."
It is the Fundamentalist who is
"assured of salvation" who is most likely to be rejected.
Well, at least that is one narrow minded, exclusive, religiously bigoted
and prejudicial opinion about the unique diversity of fundamentalists.
The scriptures themselves present a pretty narrow minded view, "There is NO
OTHER name by which men may be saved," etc. Nor, if you will note did I say
ALL fundamentalists will be rejected ("most likely"), first of all, it's not
my call to make, but Christ's and secondly, I know many fundamentalists who
give of themselves to the benefit of others, but, they seem the exception
rather than the rule.
Fundamentalism, itself, is flawed, in that it arose based on a series of
pamphlets during the 1920s in a reaction to the excesses and uncertainties
of the time. All fundamentalism has it's roots in a rejection of faith in
God's will and the attempt to put God in a box constructed of unquestionable
dogma, inerrancy and man manipulating man to adhere to certain, often
unwritten, rules, often twisting scripture to lend legitimacy to some, more
'ideal' past set of mores. To wit, instead of embracing God and trusting in
His will, fundamentalists substitute conservativism. Instead of looking
forward with certainty, fundamentalists seek to impose a present certainty.
--
"-----------------"
May God Bless You
Michael
--
Terrell D Lewis
http://www.songbookz.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
12 Oct 2006 11:27:06 PM |
|
|
In article <z7eXg.10848$vJ2.5720@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>, "TDL"
<NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote:
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1110061746190001@192.168.1.100...
In article <xuUWg.9187$TV3.590@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, "TDL"
<NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote:
"Reuben Hick" <ReubenHick@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FMTWg.15241$7I1.11560@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
"joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:qkvni2h3063pse14o3as72k5qaetvk59c6@4ax.com...
the president of the USA is not a born again Christian.
Not that I am going to agree or disagree with this statement, but the
man
has professed Christianity publically.
Now when we point to someone like Eikleberry its a slam dunk
identifying
him as reprobate, but on what strong evidence do you argue that the
president's claim is bogus?
Bush is a Christian in the same way Ben Laden is a Muslim.
How so with specificity?
Christianity and
Islam have in common that both religions have inspired some to charitable
works and lead many to work for the betterment of their fellow humans and
both religions have also inspired others to heinous acts of death and
destruction.
Perhaps Christianity has inspired ALL to charitable works and the
betterment of their fellow humans, since there would be little evidence to
convict anyone who didn't of being a Christian.
Jesus, himself, spoke about both kinds of Christians, one set of
Christians
gave food to the hungry, water to the thirsty, comfort to the sick and
were
actually amazed that Christ found them acceptable and the other set with
held food from the hungry, water to the thirsty and ignored the sick and
were amazed when Christ rejected them.
Where does it say that He affirmed the latter as Christians?
At the time, the name, "Christian," did not exist, but these were people who
in the one instance believed themselves to be followers of Christ, hence,
early members of the group who would one day be called, "Christians."
What people say they are and what they may be are not necessarily the same
thing. The radical religious left thinks that they are not 'religious'
yet they are some of the most pious self righteous fundie religious folks
anywhere.
It is the Fundamentalist who is
"assured of salvation" who is most likely to be rejected.
Well, at least that is one narrow minded, exclusive, religiously bigoted
and prejudicial opinion about the unique diversity of fundamentalists.
The scriptures themselves present a pretty narrow minded view,
The narrow path is always narrow, what is your pont?
"There is NO
OTHER name by which men may be saved," etc. Nor, if you will note did I say
ALL fundamentalists will be rejected ("most likely"), first of all, it's not
my call to make, but Christ's
Honest admission accepted.
and secondly, I know many fundamentalists who
give of themselves to the benefit of others, but, they seem the exception
rather than the rule.
Sounds more like an unsupported opinion, but not necessarily a fact.
Fundamentalism, itself, is flawed, in that it arose based on a series of
pamphlets during the 1920s in a reaction to the excesses and uncertainties
of the time.
Perhaps according to the defination of 'fundamentalism' that you are
using. To be 'fundamentsl' is to adhere to basic beliefs, nothing more
and nothing less. The 12 disciples were 'fundamental' long before these
mysterious phamplets printed during the 1920's. The term as you are
narrowly defining it carries more baggage than authenticity.
All fundamentalism has it's roots in a rejection of faith in
God's will and the attempt to put God in a box constructed of unquestionable
dogma, inerrancy and man manipulating man to adhere to certain, often
unwritten, rules, often twisting scripture to lend legitimacy to some, more
'ideal' past set of mores.
Well, at least that is a common urban legend.
To wit, instead of embracing God and trusting in
His will, fundamentalists substitute conservativism. Instead of looking
forward with certainty, fundamentalists seek to impose a present certainty
How do 'they' do 'this' with specificity?
--
"-----------------"
May God Bless You
Michael
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Scott Richter" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
13 Oct 2006 04:18:47 PM |
|
|
Michael <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Bush is a Christian in the same way Ben Laden is a Muslim.
How so with specificity?
Because they both use religion to justify the most heinous acts of death
and destruction, and they both use religionists who are gullible enough
to believe them when they claim to be doing "God's work".
Is this a mystery to you?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
13 Oct 2006 07:12:10 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:18:47 -0700, (Scott
Richter) wrote:
Michael <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Bush is a Christian in the same way Ben Laden is a Muslim.
How so with specificity?
Because they both use religion to justify the most heinous acts of death
and destruction, and they both use religionists who are gullible enough
to believe them when they claim to be doing "God's work".
bin Laden is a Wahabi Moslem, Putsch is a Fundamentalist Christian,
and I think I hear the sound of bagpipes.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains
premature today."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
|
|
|
| User: "trees40" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
13 Oct 2006 11:38:24 PM |
|
|
Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:18:47 -0700, (Scott
Richter) wrote:
Michael <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Bush is a Christian in the same way Ben Laden is a Muslim.
How so with specificity?
Because they both use religion to justify the most heinous acts of death
and destruction, and they both use religionists who are gullible enough
to believe them when they claim to be doing "God's work".
bin Laden is a Wahabi Moslem, Putsch is a Fundamentalist Christian,
and I think I hear the sound of bagpipes.
Bush is a Methodist. Hardly a fundamentalist. Get your facts straight.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Free Lunch" |
|
| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
13 Oct 2006 11:42:35 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:38:24 -0500, in alt.atheism
trees40 <trees40xxx@knology.net> wrote in
<8a0eb$4530236f$18608442$16690@KNOLOGY.NET>:
Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:18:47 -0700, (Scott
Richter) wrote:
Michael <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Bush is a Christian in the same way Ben Laden is a Muslim.
How so with specificity?
Because they both use religion to justify the most heinous acts of death
and destruction, and they both use religionists who are gullible enough
to believe them when they claim to be doing "God's work".
bin Laden is a Wahabi Moslem, Putsch is a Fundamentalist Christian,
and I think I hear the sound of bagpipes.
Bush is a Methodist. Hardly a fundamentalist. Get your facts straight.
Bush plays to the fundies. I don't think anyone really considers him to
be a Christian of any sort.
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| User: "trees40" |
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| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
14 Oct 2006 02:18:34 AM |
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Free Lunch wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:38:24 -0500, in alt.atheism
trees40 <trees40xxx@knology.net> wrote in
<8a0eb$4530236f$18608442$16690@KNOLOGY.NET>:
Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:18:47 -0700, (Scott
Richter) wrote:
Michael <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Bush is a Christian in the same way Ben Laden is a Muslim.
How so with specificity?
Because they both use religion to justify the most heinous acts of death
and destruction, and they both use religionists who are gullible enough
to believe them when they claim to be doing "God's work".
bin Laden is a Wahabi Moslem, Putsch is a Fundamentalist Christian,
and I think I hear the sound of bagpipes.
Bush is a Methodist. Hardly a fundamentalist. Get your facts straight.
Bush plays to the fundies. I don't think anyone really considers him to
be a Christian of any sort.
Anyone?
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
14 Oct 2006 01:26:34 AM |
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On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:42:35 -0500, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
Bush plays to the fundies. I don't think anyone really considers him to
be a Christian of any sort.
Well ... REAL Christians always turn the other cheek. I think there's
one living on a mountain in Colorado.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president."
- George W. Bush, quoted in George Magazine, September, 2000
"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith,
deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by
God to save Germany."
- Hermann Goering, speaking of Hitler
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Ben Hopkins" |
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| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
14 Oct 2006 06:23:10 AM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:42:35 -0500, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
Bush plays to the fundies. I don't think anyone really considers him to
be a Christian of any sort.
Well ... REAL Christians always turn the other cheek. I think there's
one living on a mountain in Colorado.
How would you like a force of Christian policemen who practiced turning
the other cheek? Or an army of them?
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
14 Oct 2006 10:29:09 AM |
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On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 06:23:10 GMT, Ben Hopkins
<nospam.hopkins.ben@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
- Refer: <in%Xg.11268$o71.2108@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:42:35 -0500, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
Bush plays to the fundies. I don't think anyone really considers him to
be a Christian of any sort.
Well ... REAL Christians always turn the other cheek. I think there's
one living on a mountain in Colorado.
How would you like a force of Christian policemen who practiced turning
the other cheek? Or an army of them?
It'd be great!
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| User: "Ben Hopkins" |
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| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
14 Oct 2006 08:17:23 PM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 06:23:10 GMT, Ben Hopkins
<nospam.hopkins.ben@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
- Refer: <in%Xg.11268$o71.2108@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:42:35 -0500, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
Bush plays to the fundies. I don't think anyone really considers him to
be a Christian of any sort.
Well ... REAL Christians always turn the other cheek. I think there's
one living on a mountain in Colorado.
How would you like a force of Christian policemen who practiced turning
the other cheek? Or an army of them?
It'd be great!
you: "Officer! There's an armed gang of thugs about to murder me and
rape my wife!"
policeman: "Great! Let me get them my wife, too!"
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
14 Oct 2006 10:06:32 PM |
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On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 20:17:23 GMT, Ben Hopkins
<nospam.hopkins.ben@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
- Refer: <nBbYg.13836$UG4.311@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Michael Gray wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 06:23:10 GMT, Ben Hopkins
<nospam.hopkins.ben@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
- Refer: <in%Xg.11268$o71.2108@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:42:35 -0500, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
Bush plays to the fundies. I don't think anyone really considers him to
be a Christian of any sort.
Well ... REAL Christians always turn the other cheek. I think there's
one living on a mountain in Colorado.
How would you like a force of Christian policemen who practiced turning
the other cheek? Or an army of them?
It'd be great!
you: "Officer! There's an armed gang of thugs about to murder me and
rape my wife!"
policeman: "Great! Let me get them my wife, too!"
I see you have met my wife.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
14 Oct 2006 10:35:09 PM |
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On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 20:17:23 GMT, Ben Hopkins
<nospam.hopkins.ben@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
you: "Officer! There's an armed gang of thugs about to murder me and
rape my wife!"
policeman: "Trust in the Lord, my son. You'll be meeting him REAL
SOON now."
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise
as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "shriven leper" |
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| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
14 Oct 2006 06:43:01 AM |
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On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 06:23:10 GMT, Ben Hopkins
<nospam.hopkins.ben@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:42:35 -0500, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
Bush plays to the fundies. I don't think anyone really considers him to
be a Christian of any sort.
Well ... REAL Christians always turn the other cheek. I think there's
one living on a mountain in Colorado.
How would you like a force of Christian policemen who practiced turning
the other cheek?
Be a whole lot better than the police of antiChrist Bush who have
knuckled under to his creation of a police state, who carry out his
illegal, immoral policies, who aid in his dismantling of the
Constitution by surveilling innocent American citizens, supporting his
annihilation of habeus corpus, and who publicly beat up Cindy Sheehan.
Or an army of them?
Be a whole lot better than the armies of antiChrist Bush who have
unilaterally, illegally and unconscionably devastated Iraq, tortured
Iraqi citizens, raped Fallujah, and continue to use nuclear technology
against Iraqis in the form of depleted uranium.
A Christian army is, in any case, an oxymoron. From its inception
and for the following three centuries, Christianity was a pacifist
movement whose adherents refused to serve in the imperial army. Jesus
himself - though he knew the bitterness of national defeat and the
degredation of living in a country occupied by foreign powers - made
his decision for peace and against war.
Jesus had the people and the power to launch a "Zealot"-like attack
against his enemies. Instead he told his followers, in that turn of
phrase which seems to so annoy you, to "turn the other cheek". Not
only to love your enemies, but to _do good_ to them. NOT to assail
them with Shock and Awe ballistics and Bushocracy enforced at
gunpoint.
- sl -
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| User: "Reuben Hick" |
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| Title: Re: question about jesus (and christians) |
14 Oct 2006 06:16:05 PM |
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"shriven leper" <bastasch8647@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:gr01j2134vjhtn0bf66322nskqk40vf195@4ax.com...
| On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 06:23:10 GMT, Ben Hopkins
| <nospam.hopkins.ben@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
|
| >Al Klein wrote:
| >> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:42:35 -0500, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
| >> wrote:
| >>
| >>> Bush plays to the fundies. I don't think anyone really considers him to
| >>> be a Christian of any sort.
| >>
| >> Well ... REAL Christians always turn the other cheek. I think there's
| >> one living on a mountain in Colorado.
| >
| >How would you like a force of Christian policemen who practiced turning
| >the other cheek?
|
| Be a whole lot better than the police of antiChrist Bush who have
| knuckled under to his creation of a police state, who carry out his
| illegal, immoral policies, who aid in his dismantling of the
| Constitution by surveilling innocent American citizens, supporting his
| annihilation of habeus corpus, and who publicly beat up Cindy Sheehan.
|
| >Or an army of them?
|
| Be a whole lot better than the armies of antiChrist Bush...
Do you even do a sanity check on your writings?
The Dispensationalists teach that the anti-Christ will bring a three and a half
year period of global peace, therefore the two are mutually exclusive according
to your definition of peace.
Pick one: "armies" or "antiChrist" ?
| ... who have
| unilaterally, illegally and unconscionably devastated Iraq, tortured
| Iraqi citizens, raped Fallujah, and continue to use nuclear technology
| against Iraqis in the form of depleted uranium.
I want to take a moment here to smack you around for such idiocy in crying about
"depleted uranium"
Depleted uranimum is a heavy metal like lead, tungsten etc. Its only harmful
when its in the body. If you have depleted uranimum in your body, you either
ate it or had it rapidly injected in your system in the form of a bullet, in
which case it isn't radiation that is your problem.
Which brings us to point two about depleted uranium. Depleted uranimum, being
what is left over from when the radioactive isotopes are removed for nuclear
fuel or weapons sheds only 60% of the radiation of ~natural uranium~. That
means the raw stuff in the ground puts out more radiation than depleted
uranium - hence the word "depleted". Of the radiation, its mostly alpha and
beta particles which are easily blocked by skin and clothes - so don't roll
around nude where a Warthog has destroyed a few enemy tanks. Gamma radiation
is so low that the contribution to normal everyday background radiation is
insignificant.
Furthermore, uranium is not used in weapons, enriched plutonium is used in
nuclear weapons, its depleted uranium not depleted plutonium. Also, if you
think that DU is so dangerous to be around (other in the form of high velocity
projectiles) don't get in an airplane or boat since DU is used in the civilian
industry as stabilizers. (its also a component in Abram's tank armor)
DU is also expensive, so no matter how wasteful you think the military is, if
the DU has been deployed, the target most likely deserved it.
| A Christian army is, in any case, an oxymoron.
Apparently you haven't kept up with the "Left Behind" Series. The Last Day is
characterized by a very militant Jesus returning and laying utter waste to all
of His enemies.
| From its inception
| and for the following three centuries, Christianity was a pacifist
| movement whose adherents refused to serve in the imperial army. Jesus
| himself - though he knew the bitterness of national defeat and the
| degredation of living in a country occupied by foreign powers - made
| his decision for peace and against war.
So why does your history stop at Constantine the Great? (288-337 which makes
it two centuries, not three)
Maybe because the Christians were not involved in government, which is the
traditional entity that raises armies?
And Jesus' "decision for peace" has absolutely nothing with anti-war sentiment.
If you recall statements made by your fellow travelers, you should remember the
extensive finger pointing to the Old Testament where God keeps Israel's armies
on a near-constant warpath.
Lets say that Jesus decided to raise and army and defeat Rome. For what
purpose?
Rather, why not take Him at His word and remember that His Kingdom was/is not of
this world?
| Jesus had the people and the power to launch a "Zealot"-like attack
| against his enemies. Instead he told his followers, in that turn of
| phrase which seems to so annoy you, to "turn the other cheek". Not
| only to love your enemies, but to _do good_ to them. NOT to assail
| them with Shock and Awe ballistics and Bushocracy enforced at
| gunpoint.
I take it that you are more like the Josef "How many divisions does the Pope
have?" Stalin type and prefer your wars done the traditional way where the
leader doesn't give a moment's thought to the amount of death and destruction
that happens on both sides of a war.
In case you forgot, there is a World War III. If you know this, then clearly
you are siding with the terrorists and quite frankly there is no reasoning with
anyone who thinks that the status quo in the Middle East is a good thing.
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