On Oct 27, 9:12 pm, Will <some...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote
innews:1193526101.420647.99240@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

On Oct 27, 6:10 pm, Will <some...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote
innews:1193516439.196563.101250@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

On Oct 27, 3:45 pm, Will <some...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote
innews:q527i3pmb02aagbk1f7f4i1ci6h7802m98@4ax.com:

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 16:37:33 GMT, Will
<some...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

"Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:re3Ui.6130$b9.4174 @bignews1.bellsouth.net:

There are many hundreds of religious and god beliefs.

How do you know your belief is the correct belief and all
the others are fakes?

By the daily miracles, signs, and wonders. By the prophecies
that have been fulfilled, and are still being fulfilled
today? By the grace that He has extended me. By the answered
prayers. By the unanswered prayers. By faith and love.

IOW, you don't have a clue.

I'm not the one asking the questions here, you are.

He's not "asking questions", he's asking somone who claims gods
exist to put up or shut up.

No, he's asking how anyone can be sure about how they chose to
believe. Read the question, it says "How do you know your belief
is the correct belief and all the others are fakes?"

A rhetorical question, and a common reply when someone invokes
Pascal's Wager. It was supposed to demonstrate the lack of worth of
the argument. If you're worshiping the *wrong* god, you run the
risk of angering the *right* one. So you run an equal risk of
"hell" as the unbeliever.

[snip]

Try reading my
answer, however, instead of writing your own IOW answer.

Why would any real God permit his creations to be so
deceived?

Why don't you ask Him with an open mind and an open heart?

Why don't you post objective evidence that "he" objectively
exists?

Because I'm not the one asking the loaded question, I'm not the
one seeking the answers to this loaded question, and I'm not
the one that's trying to convince others of my belief or
disbelief.

The question is not "loaded".

A loaded question is "a question that presupposes something that
has not been proven or accepted by all the people involved."
(wikipedia,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_many_questions,
10/27/07)

I am not the one presupposing. You are. You are stating, without
evidence that a god or gods exist. Because there is no evidence
that they exist, I do not consider it important whether they exist
or not. The subject of religion I consider important, because of
the threat it poses to human development..but there is no worth to
be found in the underlying question of existance.

So, than a God that is more interested in the action of the
individual and his/her motives for such actions, whether than the
individual's religios affiliation, would be more acceptable to you?

I don't find the subject important enough to even speculate. There is
not enough real world (i.e. measurable and repeatable) evidence to
consider that such creatures might exist. If they do, they have no
impact upon the practicalities of daily life. They are irrelevant to
the world I exist in.

The question that was loaded is "Why would any real God permit his
creations to be so deceived?" In this, there is the underlying
presupposition that if God were real, than we either shouldn't be
permitted to deception, or that there must be a good reason for
such deception to be tolerated.

Therefore, if deception exists, with the
abscence of a sound and valid reason for such deception, than the
question further assumes that God cannot exist, as the two would
need a sound and valid reason to co-exist together.

Therefore, this question is a loaded question.

No, it is an exercise in logic. You call the question "loaded"
because you do not accept the default position *as* the default
position.

And that is the definition of a loaded question. A question that
assumes something that has not been proven or accepted by all the
parties involved?

You
presuppose the existance of something without demonstrating that it
exists.

But I'm not the one trying to prove to you that He does or doesn't
exist.

Well, you certainly could have fooled me. I thought you were
attempting to defend the rationality of believing in these creatures.
If you will simply admit that it is not rational, even though it is
your personal belief, we could leave it at that.

There is no evidence any of mankind's
hundreds of thousands of gods exist.

That's a lot of gods. I only worship one.

So the non-existence of gods is
the default position.

OK, this is both a false dichotomy and argumentum ad ignorantum.
First, just because you don't see any evidence of God doesn't mean
that He doesn't exist.

Would you have problems with it if it were speaking of leprechauns
or Santa Claus?

Yup. Haven't you been watching South Park ;-).

Oh, no...we *invented* those jokes here in alt.atheism. They stole
them from us! <g>

On that note, if someone
came up to me with an honest belief in leprechauns or Santa Clause, I
would leave them be and keep living by my belief.

You'd think me batty if I honestly believed in a tooth
fairy.

There are crazier things to believe in (i.e. a cosmic accident that's
somehow responsible for all the complexities of life throughout the
universe).

Why on earth should I allow special pleading for *your* god.

I didn't know He was on trial?

Then I have misinterpreted your actions.

It
is only important to you. To me, it's just someone else's silly
superstition, and it is no more likely that your god exists than
the Flying Spagetti Monster.

Oh know, a flying spaghetti monster (and yet the Homer Simpson in me
is thinking Mmmmm...Spaghetti).

Second, just because you can't find evidence one way
doesn't mean you need to default to the polar opposite.

I don't. Since there is no evidence of any creature existing
outside the natural universe affecting change within it, I do not
care whether or not gods exist. It is the actions of people who
believe in gods that I percieve as the danger.

Well, Jesus did warn us that there would be those who would come
falsely in His name, and that they would mislead many. But, if you
keep the two great commandments found in Matthew 22:35-40, which is
essentially to love God and love your neighbor, than you won't be
misguided by the counterfeit Christians.

I do not believe Christian mythology is true. Can you not see that
quoting from your traditions is no different to me than if you had
read me something from a Japanese comic book? They have absolutely no
value to me.

For example, I
can make the claim that I find no evidence that God doesn't exist.
Therefore, the default position is that He exists and it is up to
you to prove to me that He doesn't (especially since you seem to
want me to believe as you do).

However, I could, if I chose to, take the position that there is
no evidence that if there is no evidence that God exists, and if
there is no evidence that He doesn't exist, than we are left with
the position of not knowing, subject to our own beliefs.

You are the one who claim gods exist,

No, I BELIEVE God (one God) exists. Get it straight.

so it is
your burden to prove they do.

You're the one that claims that God doesn't exist, so it is your
burden to prove that He doesn't.

You lecture me on logical fallacies, and then turn right around and
ask me to prove a negative? Odd strategy. *You* are the one making
the positive claim.

No, I'm not making a claim, I'm simply stating a belief. Are you
going to argue with me about what I believe? Furthermore, argumentum
ad ignorantum goes both ways, as neither the abscence of proof of
what is, nor the abscence of proof of what isn't, constitutes a valid
argument. Therefore, you are right that I used a logical fallacy,
but by recognizing that you should also recognize the fallacy of your
argument stating that the lack of proof of God means a default
position of no God, which is doubly fallacious, for it assumes only
two possible stances to take (false dichitomy) and appeals to
ignorance.

Only if one considers the existence of gods *important*.

Special
pleading, pure and simple. What would be anything other than a lack of
existence?

Partial existence (could that even be *defined*?)? Previous
or future existence? Either something is, or it is not.

If it were my duty to disprove every
nutty claim people make about the alleged "supernatural", there
would be no time to do anything else.

Than why not just let people believe what they want to believe and
call it a day.

Because they would deprive women, gays and minorities of their
rights.

I see. So, because some of us who bare Christ's name have acted this
way, we all must be like that. What a gross overgeneralization.
Come on, how about practicing some of that tolerance you're always
preaching.

[snip intolerant stereotypical text]

Intolerant? For simply asking that you people keep your mythologies to
yourselves?

For pointing out what the irrationality of religion leads
to?

I often ask why religious opinions are seemingly immune to the
kind of criticisms one would level at political or sports opinions. I
keep recieving the answer, "..because it's personal." Perhaps if it is
so personal, it should be kept to one's self.

That way, you can do whatever nutty things you normally do
during the day.

Why don't you ask yourself if He exists the next time you come
within a fraction of a second of sure death just to be saved by
some infinitesimal improbability (we call those miracles where
I'm from, though that's not the only kind of miracle)?

Been there, done that.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/da05fd09c5e8309b?dm
ode =s
ource

Funny.

And true. Read the entire thread. It is not unusual for an atheist
not to think of gods when life is in danger. It's easy to find the
atheist in the foxhole-he uses the most ammunition.

Ask yourself if He exists next time the
timing is just too perfect for a personal petition (a prayer)
answered from that very deity that you chose not to believe in.

I petition no one. Two hands working do more than a thousand
praying.

That's because hands don't pray, hearts do.

Hearts pump blood. Minds pray.

I realize that the universe is an uncaring, difficult place
sometimes, and I feel no need to make up fairy tales when bad
things happen to good people.

Good for you.

When you finally
realize how blessed you are, ask yourself if He exists.

Again, you're the one that wants to know, not me. You're the
one seeking answers, not me (for I have found all the answers
in Him).

You once again mistake a request for proof as a "search" for
something.

No, but apparantly I mistake your request for proof for your
willingless to receive such proof straight from the source.

I don't need your insipid little Bronze Age myth.

Good, because I don't have an insipid little bronze-age myth. I
have Jesus Christ.

All serious searches for a Jesus Christ have been failures.

I do not
have the void in my emotions that requires the `security
blanket' of religion.

When I was in my dark place, for many years away from God, I
thought I too was complete. But when I came to Him, it was only
than that I realized just how empty my former way of life was, and
how empty I really felt. When you live with such a conditin for a
long enough period of time, you don't realize that the condition
is there until that condition is removed.

Oh, please. You're a complete stranger on a newsgroup and you think
you know who I am?

last I checked you were panamfl...@hotmail.com.

How I feel?

OK. That wasn't where I was going or what I was asking, but sure,
how do you feel?

See my previous comment below. I thought you were about to tell me I
was unhappy and that I needed your mythology to make me happy.

Get over yourself. I'm having the time
of my life. There is happiness. There is joy. I lack nothing. The
only blight right now is that my girlfriend has multiple sclerosis.
Sometimes I wish I did believe in gods, so I'd have someone to
blame for it.

IC. Well, I'm sorry for yours and your g/f's misfortune. I wish
there was something I can do about it. I totally would understand if
you wanted someone to blame, just so you can let whoever or whatever
is responsible for this blight know what it's doing to you and your
g/f. I mean, you probably feel, needless to say, angry at the
situation, and want someone or something to blame.

But there is nothing. Bad things happen to good people, and this
happened to us.

There's more good in being alive than bad, and we just
remember that. Strange thing is, we're having the toughest time
finding a single-storey house (she's having problems with the stairs-
and the dogs are getting older, too) that's less than twenty years
old! All the McMansions are 2 & 3 levels. Weird the things you
discover through adversity.

I reserve my love for humans, and my wonder for the natural
universe. There is nothing missing. Nothing in my life for such
a meaningless being to *do*.

Great. Study nature, and all its complexities. If you can prove
that it's all some kind of cosmic accident void of any deity,

Accident? I will admit that humanity does not yet know where it all
came from. But if I want to know, I'll read the work of the people
trying to discover it, rather than wrap my ignorance up with a bow
and call it "god". Life is the easy part. Simple chemistry.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/

than I'm sure
you'll win the hearts and minds of many believers.

I just want `em to leave my tax money, my gay friends, and my
nation's cities alone.

And I just want your gay friends, your nation's cities, and God's
people to co-exist; and let God's people, who also pay taxes, have a
say in how taxes are spent. But as long as we are unfairly judged
(and I'm talking about both Christians and gays, for it is not for
the Christian to judge, nor should they be judged as a group by any
member of the gays), than I don't see this happenning.

IOW, how about practicing some of that tolerance you're preaching.

Just approach
the subject with an open heart and open mind, and you'll find
the answers that you need--not from me, and probably not from
any one particular church, synagogue, mosque, or other kind of
religious facility, but from Him whom I serve.

And whose existence you *still* have not proven.

I already told you, I'm not here to prove these things to you.
Just like when a rumor spreads,

Most rumors are decidedly *not* true.

http://www.snopes.com/

if you want to know the real truth of the matter,
you go straight to the source. Such is the same with God. If you
want to know the truth about Him, go straight to the source. Do
you want to know the truth?

I already know the "truth" about Christian mythology.

http://tinyurl.com/2vhs39
http://tinyurl.com/2kg43d
http://tinyurl.com/3ay5hm
http://tinyurl.com/2wskdr
http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/
http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/christian.htm
http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/

Christianity was the ideological train wreck left behind by the
reaction of ancient pagan people to the strange "new" Jewish idea
called `monotheism'. The legend known as "Jesus" was either:

1.) Based upon a series of heretical rabbis during the Roman
occupation of Palestine..

2.) Based upon the Essenes' "Teacher of Enlightenment"..or

3.) Never existed at all and was a catch-all for the pagan faith-
healer stories told before early xianity arose.

I don't believe in gods because I don't see any, but I don't
believe in Christianity because I can read.

That's not the source. Try asking God, for He is the source.

Irregardless, I think you're confusing Catholocism and the Protestant
splinters of Catholicism with Christianity.

"No true Scotsman...."? I somehow knew there'd be bagpipes before this
was over.

Christianity can't be found in
any one building, nor is their any one leader here on earth (for our
leader is God, and His son Jesus Christ). In fact, I'd even go so
far to say that Christianity shouldn't even be classified as a
religion, but more so should be considered a lifestyle, a way of
life.

I have previously documented the truth behind the Christian myth, and