Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter?


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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: ""
Date: 29 Aug 2006 08:53:07 PM
Object: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter?
My cousin "Bible John Wolf" asks this question.
Why does Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter?
My cousin and I would agree that Dave spends allot of time on Gastrich,
my cousin, Weatherly, and Davey. But he does not spend the time
"exposing" the other christian ministers that post here.
Angelo
.

User: "Dave"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 29 Aug 2006 09:06:38 PM
wrote:

My cousin "Bible John Wolf" asks this question.

Why does Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter?

My cousin and I would agree that Dave spends allot of time on Gastrich,
my cousin, Weatherly, and Davey. But he does not spend the time
"exposing" the other christian ministers that post here.

Let me see if I understand this correctly: Wolf tells one lie after
another, spews his own version of hate, advocates violence against
children, ducks questions put to him, and then expects me to answer
him?
Let's forget for the moment that we all know that "Angelo" is actually
Wolf. Wolf is not courageous enough to post the question under his own
name?
I'll be clear on this, because I intend to use him as an example, Davey
today posted a public apology to Lenny Flank for an insult tossed to
him that *nobody* but the moderators of the maleboge discussion group
saw. That showed me something. Now Davey has engaged in that sort of
thing before, but never under those kinds of circumstances. Maybe he
was quicker to apologize precisely because no one else saw what he
wrote. Davey has delivered apologies before and then, for all worths
and purposes, invalidated them by quickly reverting to his old ways.
Still, when Wolf shows even a modicum of the courage that Davey showed,
today, I might start to show some respect for him. But he'll never do
that; and so I will never do that.
Wolf, Gastrich, and Weatherly are cowards, but the answer is that
nobody hates them. I certainly don't, and I've said that, several
times. "Angelo's" question simply reveals him, again, as Wolf, since
it's exactly the sort of "reasoning" that Wolf would use. Simple
opposition to him translates into "hate."
Winter has already been on the receiving end of my attention, but
Winter gets enough attention, and I only allocate so much of my
personal time to Usenet and Internet discussion group participation.
So, maybe...just maybe, the answer to Wolf's question is that I only
have so much time that I chose to devote, and maybe the *real* problem
is that there are too many religious lunatics like him running around
for one person to address.
Wolf needs to grow up, stop worrying about the attention that others
receive, and deal with his own issues.
.
User: "Mike Dundee"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 29 Aug 2006 09:11:35 PM
"Dave" <horndw@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156903598.288421.113700@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...

hornexposer@yahoo.com wrote:

My cousin "Bible John Wolf" asks this question.

Why does Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter?

My cousin and I would agree that Dave spends allot of time on Gastrich,
my cousin, Weatherly, and Davey. But he does not spend the time
"exposing" the other christian ministers that post here.


Let me see if I understand this correctly: Wolf tells one lie after
another, spews his own version of hate, advocates violence against
children, ducks questions put to him, and then expects me to answer
him?

Steve Winter is so far off the lunatic fringe with his stuff he's not worth
the time or the effort.
.


User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?e1do9nP2ZXZlcn0=?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 29 Aug 2006 09:08:29 PM
wrote:

My cousin "Bible John Wolf" asks this question.

Get off it Wolf - no one here believes that "
" is
anybody but you. Why continue with the charade? Is it glorifying to
God? If not, how do you expect God to bless any ministry you may have
with your continuation of this childish behavior?

Why does Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter?

Dave doesn't hate you, so why would he waste his energy hating Steve
Winter? Just because someone doesn't like or agree with you that
doesn't mean they hate you. Grow up!

My cousin and I would agree

Do you have MPD? Why do you keep referring to a non-existant cousin as
if he were real and in the same room with you? The only thing here
that I see as agreeable is that you and your "cousin" have the same
problems with spelling the same words incorrectly and that you are a
loon.

that Dave spends allot of time on Gastrich,
my cousin, Weatherly, and Davey. But he does not spend the time
"exposing" the other christian ministers that post here.

Just curious "Angelo", are you a born-again Christin? If not, why are
you so concerned with what Dave says about "the other christian
ministers that post here"? If you are saved, why are you still a part
of La Cosa Nostra?

Angelo

Maybe Angelo is really your new boyfriend, huh Wolf? (and you're just
using the cousin thing for a cover story as to why he's spending night
and day with you in your one-bedroom apartment)
.
User: "Just Mark"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor SteveWinter? 01 Sep 2006 05:58:27 PM
{Whösöever} wrote:

hornexposer@yahoo.com wrote:

My cousin "Bible John Wolf" asks this question.


Get off it Wolf - no one here believes that "hornexposer@yahoo.com" is
anybody but you. Why continue with the charade? Is it glorifying to
God? If not, how do you expect God to bless any ministry you may have
with your continuation of this childish behavior?

What happened to "just ignore him"? You were really on to something
with that.


Why does Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter?


Dave doesn't hate you, so why would he waste his energy hating Steve
Winter? Just because someone doesn't like or agree with you that
doesn't mean they hate you. Grow up!

My cousin and I would agree


Do you have MPD?

No longer any such thing as MPD. It appears that you've attempted to
marginalize a fellow human being with by attaching some [outdated]
psychiatric label you don't understand. What do you get out of doing that?

Why do you keep referring to a non-existant cousin as
if he were real and in the same room with you?

If you're really going to attempt to help John, then maybe it would be
wise to put some energy into these questions:
Why do *you* think he's hiding behind "Angelo"? What have we discovered
about John (and his accompanying emotional systems) that fits with the
appearance of this new character and his "wiseguy" persona? Is there
something about John that makes "Angelo", the diapers, the
"wanna-be-ism", the cyber-stalking, and the rigid fundamentalism all
make sense?
Suppose we rule out Asperger's, as one therapist did (according to
John). Is there something less clinical...something more
systemic...that might make John's behavior seem adaptive to John? What
are the possibilities? And is there any counter-transference which
might require your attention?

The only thing here
that I see as agreeable is that you and your "cousin" have the same
problems with spelling the same words incorrectly and that you are a
loon.

Nice. Did you find "Loon" on Axis I or Axis II?


that Dave spends allot of time on Gastrich,
my cousin, Weatherly, and Davey. But he does not spend the time
"exposing" the other christian ministers that post here.


Just curious "Angelo", are you a born-again Christin? If not, why are
you so concerned with what Dave says about "the other christian
ministers that post here"? If you are saved, why are you still a part
of La Cosa Nostra?

Pot...kettle...


Angelo


Maybe Angelo is really your new boyfriend, huh Wolf? (and you're just
using the cousin thing for a cover story as to why he's spending night
and day with you in your one-bedroom apartment)

Wow. The more I read your responses to John, the more I realize: this
isn't about helping John at all. Is it? This is about helping *you*.
This is about exorcising your own demons. It's a vicarious cleansing by
reaction formation.
What do you know about John's experience that mirrors your own?
.
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?KioqV2j2c/ZldmVyKioq?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 01 Sep 2006 08:05:01 PM
Just Mark wrote:

Wow. The more I read your responses to John, the more I realize: this
isn't about helping John at all. Is it? This is about helping *you*.
This is about exorcising your own demons. It's a vicarious cleansing by
reaction formation.
What do you know about John's experience that mirrors your own?

Once again (while trying to figure me out) you couldn't be more wrong.
Oh, well. As long as you're entertained, I guess...
.
User: "Just Mark"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor SteveWinter? 02 Sep 2006 12:28:22 AM
***Whösöever*** wrote:

Just Mark wrote:

Wow. The more I read your responses to John, the more I realize: this
isn't about helping John at all. Is it? This is about helping *you*.
This is about exorcising your own demons. It's a vicarious cleansing by
reaction formation.
What do you know about John's experience that mirrors your own?


Once again (while trying to figure me out) you couldn't be more wrong.

Oh, well. As long as you're entertained, I guess...

It's safe to get over yourself. There's never been any mystery.
~You insist that this isn't about you, but then you snip out everything
*except* the part about you. "Incongruity".
~You use deflection to focus in on that part. "Resistance".
~When challenged to re-evaluate the efficacy of your efforts, you focus
on what those efforts mean for *you*. "Narcissism".
~Your tone with John has steadily degraded. "Anxiety".
~Misappropriation of clinical nomenclature in order to label and
control. "Intellectualizing".
All of these observations are indicative of a person with a low level of
self-differentiation. As I said above, there's never been any mystery
about that. Since the first, anxiety-riddled post of yours I ever read,
your level of emotional anxiety has been obvious.
The person who needs to figure you out is you, and there are
professionals who can help you do that. My objection is that you're
currently doing so at the expense of another human being. That's never
okay to do.
.
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?KioqV2j2c/ZldmVyKioq?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 02 Sep 2006 12:27:22 AM
Just Mark wrote:

All of these observations are indicative of a person with a low level of
self-differentiation. As I said above, there's never been any mystery
about that. Since the first, anxiety-riddled post of yours I ever read,
your level of emotional anxiety has been obvious.
The person who needs to figure you out is you, and there are
professionals who can help you do that. My objection is that you're
currently doing so at the expense of another human being.

Here's the reality:
You're wrong.
.
User: "Just Mark"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor SteveWinter? 02 Sep 2006 12:48:06 AM
***Whösöever*** wrote:

Just Mark wrote:

All of these observations are indicative of a person with a low level of
self-differentiation. As I said above, there's never been any mystery
about that. Since the first, anxiety-riddled post of yours I ever read,
your level of emotional anxiety has been obvious.
The person who needs to figure you out is you, and there are
professionals who can help you do that. My objection is that you're
currently doing so at the expense of another human being.


Here's the reality:

You're wrong.

More resistance. Again, you ignore the part which points out that
you're ignoring your stated purpose. The incongruity screams out for
attention.
Thus, the actual reality:
You're only fooling you.
.
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?KioqV2j2c/ZldmVyKioq?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 02 Sep 2006 12:22:33 PM
Just Mark wrote:

More resistance. Again, you ignore the part which points out that
you're ignoring your stated purpose. The incongruity screams out for
attention.
Thus, the actual reality:
You're only fooling you.

I know that you fancy yourself a cyber-psychologist Just Mark, but
let's not forget the ultimate reality:
This is merely the internet, I owe you no explanations for anything,
and what I ignore or don't ignore you will never know and furthermore
is none of your business.
You seem to have a very inflated sense of superiority and your
importance here - why, I have no clue - but your apparent need to
diagnose and judge me has become quite tedious. I have no idea what
your intentions are, if you mean well, if you mean anything at all for
that matter. But your decision to vilify me and champion the cause of
John Wolf is...well...just plain strange considering your treatment of
him just a few short months ago.
The fact is that John Wolf is an enigma - and truth be told *here* we
all are. To decide someone is this or that or the other based on a few
posts in an internet forum is just silly. Internet communication is
one dimensional and cannot possibly give the whole picture of a person.
So...to make character and psychological judgements about someone
based on reading a few posts is not only short-sighted, it's plain
ridiculous. Sure, you can gather information about someone by reading
what they've written here, but to think that you completely have
someone's number by communicating with them on such a superficial level
is not scientific and it's certainly not personal. People are made up
of more than the words they type on their computer keyboard and any of
us can be whatever we want to be here in this forum. To believe
otherwise is simple prejudice and just not prudent thinking. Take for
example the following quote by John Wolf himself:
"I can cry psyco when I want too and people will believe me."
That speaks volumes, doesn't it?
.
User: "Just Mark"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor SteveWinter? 03 Sep 2006 10:42:28 PM
***Whösöever*** wrote:

Just Mark wrote:

More resistance. Again, you ignore the part which points out that
you're ignoring your stated purpose. The incongruity screams out for
attention.
Thus, the actual reality:
You're only fooling you.


I know that you fancy yourself a cyber-psychologist Just Mark, but
let's not forget the ultimate reality:

This is merely the internet, I owe you no explanations for anything,
and what I ignore or don't ignore you will never know and furthermore
is none of your business.

Who's asking you to explain anything to me? You're reading something
that isn't there. I'm asking you to consider your own motivation for
"going after" John Wolf, when (as you say) "this is merely the
internet". I'm inviting you to wonder, "Why this guy?" I don't care
what your answers are, and I don't care what you determine the payoff is
for you. That's for you to care about and deal with. You're the expert
on your own life; I'm just asking you to consider whether you're acting
responsibly as a person who's been ordained with a sacred trust.


You seem to have a very inflated sense of superiority and your
importance here - why, I have no clue - but your apparent need to
diagnose and judge me has become quite tedious. I have no idea what
your intentions are, if you mean well, if you mean anything at all for
that matter. But your decision to vilify me and champion the cause of
John Wolf is...well...just plain strange considering your treatment of
him just a few short months ago.

I have neither vilified you, nor championed John's cause. Your
suggestion would be befuddling without some theoretical paradigm to help
understand it. One of my favorites offers this axiom: "Anxious people
say things that aren't heard, and hear things that aren't said." This
is, again, not a put-down directed toward you. We all inherit our
levels of personal differentiation and emotional reactivity via a
complex cocktail of systemic processes, including a multi-generational
transmission process. Point is, your suggestion has no basis in reality
(I no more agree with John Wolf's ideas and behavior than I agree with
the Flat Earth Society), and is, in fact, called "splitting"...but
that's not your "fault". Odds are, such either/or thinking probably can
be found as part of an underlying system "rule" in your family going
back 3 or 4 generations.
What you have interpreted as vilification is, in reality, a wake-up call
to a fellow "helping professional". As an ordained helper, the balance
of power in your "relationship" with John is already weighted heavily in
your favor. The same is true as a person generally...You are
well-educated, John is not; you are a professional, John is not; you are
have a handle on who you really are, John does not; you are socially
able, John is clearly impaired. You have the power in the
"relationship", such as it is. However, your treatment of Wolf
constitutes an abuse of that power.


The fact is that John Wolf is an enigma - and truth be told *here* we
all are. To decide someone is this or that or the other based on a few
posts in an internet forum is just silly. Internet communication is
one dimensional and cannot possibly give the whole picture of a person.
So...to make character and psychological judgements about someone
based on reading a few posts is not only short-sighted, it's plain
ridiculous. Sure, you can gather information about someone by reading
what they've written here, but to think that you completely have
someone's number by communicating with them on such a superficial level
is not scientific and it's certainly not personal. People are made up
of more than the words they type on their computer keyboard and any of
us can be whatever we want to be here in this forum. To believe
otherwise is simple prejudice and just not prudent thinking.

Yes! That's right! (And I understand that you intended the above for
my education; I haven't missed your point) But, why do you attach
psychiatric labels and words like "loon" to him when "to make character
and psychological judgments about someone based on reading a few posts
is not only short-sighted, it's plain ridiculous,"? You're doing
exactly what you've just condemned! And this happens almost exclusively
with John Wolf.
Does that not raise some small red flag for you? At all?

Take for
example the following quote by John Wolf himself:

Just stop. I'm not concerned with John Wolf; I'm concerned about you,
the ordained minister. *You're* the one who has been entrusted with
shepherding the hearts and minds of real people in real life.
Mistreatment of *any* person is a violation of the trust you've been
granted. How would your flock respond if they could read what you post
here?


"I can cry psyco when I want too and people will believe me."

That speaks volumes, doesn't it?

I don't care. The volumes which concern me are the ones spoken by your
deflection of focus *back* on to this person. "Why this guy?"
.
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?KioqV2j2c/ZldmVyKioq?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 03 Sep 2006 11:14:33 PM
Just Mark wrote:

Who's asking you to explain anything to me? You're reading something
that isn't there. I'm asking you to consider your own motivation for
"going after" John Wolf, when (as you say) "this is merely the
internet". I'm inviting you to wonder, "Why this guy?"

Maybe I am reading something into nothing. But - from where I sit, you
are now (and have in the past) asked me to explain why I am interested
in John Wolf and why (in your words) I waste my time with him.

I don't care
what your answers are, and I don't care what you determine the payoff is
for you. That's for you to care about and deal with. You're the expert
on your own life;

Glad you finally realize that. A while back when I gave you certain
answers to certain questions you poo-poo'ed my answers by telling
another poster that I hated John. When I told you that you were wrong,
you refused to believe me. So ho can you tell me today that I'm the
expert on my own life and have previously told me that I was being
dishonest with myself?

I have neither vilified you, nor championed John's cause.

I disagree.

Your
suggestion would be befuddling without some theoretical paradigm to help
understand it. One of my favorites offers this axiom: "Anxious people
say things that aren't heard, and hear things that aren't said." This
is, again, not a put-down directed toward you. We all inherit our
levels of personal differentiation and emotional reactivity via a
complex cocktail of systemic processes, including a multi-generational
transmission process. Point is, your suggestion has no basis in reality
(I no more agree with John Wolf's ideas and behavior than I agree with
the Flat Earth Society), and is, in fact, called "splitting"...but
that's not your "fault". Odds are, such either/or thinking probably can
be found as part of an underlying system "rule" in your family going
back 3 or 4 generations.

Amazing how you take yourself so seriously in an internet forum.
Diagnosing in a one-dimensional world. You must have super-powers.

However, your treatment of Wolf constitutes an abuse of that power.

Wolf has never acknowledged my attempts to help him. I can hardly
abuse someone who for all I know is ignoring me.

Yes! That's right! (And I understand that you intended the above for
my education; I haven't missed your point) But, why do you attach
psychiatric labels and words like "loon" to him when "to make character
and psychological judgments about someone based on reading a few posts
is not only short-sighted, it's plain ridiculous,"? You're doing
exactly what you've just condemned! And this happens almost exclusively
with John Wolf.
Does that not raise some small red flag for you? At all?

See above.

How would your flock respond if they could read what you post
here?

I have no idea.

The volumes which concern me are the ones spoken by your
deflection of focus *back* on to this person.

You see it as "deflection of focus", I see it as John Wolf is the
topic, not me.

"Why this guy?"

Can't answer that one. But for some reason I have a heart for John
Wolf. Whatever it takes to get him to listen, I'll do it. Not to the
extent that others here in these groups will take it, but in some cases
I will be extreme. You see it as abusive, I don't.
.
User: "Just Mark"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor SteveWinter? 04 Sep 2006 09:30:02 AM
***Whösöever*** wrote:

Just Mark wrote:

Who's asking you to explain anything to me? You're reading something
that isn't there. I'm asking you to consider your own motivation for
"going after" John Wolf, when (as you say) "this is merely the
internet". I'm inviting you to wonder, "Why this guy?"


Maybe I am reading something into nothing. But - from where I sit, you
are now (and have in the past) asked me to explain why I am interested
in John Wolf and why (in your words) I waste my time with him.

You don't owe me an explanation. If you were led to believe otherwise,
then I should have been clearer. You owe it to yourself, and to those
you serve, to understand why this guy consumes so much of your time and
energy--or at the very least, why he attracts so much of your attention.


I don't care
what your answers are, and I don't care what you determine the payoff is
for you. That's for you to care about and deal with. You're the expert
on your own life;


Glad you finally realize that. A while back when I gave you certain
answers to certain questions you poo-poo'ed my answers by telling
another poster that I hated John. When I told you that you were wrong,
you refused to believe me. So ho can you tell me today that I'm the
expert on my own life and have previously told me that I was being
dishonest with myself?

Because I think you're being dishonest with yourself. Somebody who has
the education, qualifications, and public trust you claim to have simply
ought to be behaving differently in this situation.
As an ordained minister, do you have nobody to whom you report? Do you
have no supervisor with whom you meet; somebody you can trust to say,
"Kelly, I think you're way to wrapped up in this to be objective,"? In
my profession, I have precisely that; and it's incredibly helpful. That
relationship helps ensure that what I do is in the best interest of
those I help. It helps avoid using the people I serve to get my own
needs met.


I have neither vilified you, nor championed John's cause.


I disagree.

Your
suggestion would be befuddling without some theoretical paradigm to help
understand it. One of my favorites offers this axiom: "Anxious people
say things that aren't heard, and hear things that aren't said." This
is, again, not a put-down directed toward you. We all inherit our
levels of personal differentiation and emotional reactivity via a
complex cocktail of systemic processes, including a multi-generational
transmission process. Point is, your suggestion has no basis in reality
(I no more agree with John Wolf's ideas and behavior than I agree with
the Flat Earth Society), and is, in fact, called "splitting"...but
that's not your "fault". Odds are, such either/or thinking probably can
be found as part of an underlying system "rule" in your family going
back 3 or 4 generations.


Amazing how you take yourself so seriously in an internet forum.
Diagnosing in a one-dimensional world. You must have super-powers.

There we go: case in point (hearing things that aren't said and saying
things that aren't heard). I offered an explanation for your behavior
which exonerates you, and what you read was "He takes him self too
seriously."
As far as diagnosing, again, you're condemning the very thing you
yourself are prone to do. Or, what you see as the very thing,
anyway...for I have offered no diagnosis here. I have offered
information from Family Systems Theory which may provide a bit of
insight, nothing more. That you insist on calling that "diagnosing"
suggests that either, a) you don't understand that word and are misusing
it, or b) you've had some unpleasant experiences with "diagnosing".


However, your treatment of Wolf constitutes an abuse of that power.


Wolf has never acknowledged my attempts to help him. I can hardly
abuse someone who for all I know is ignoring me.

You might want to re-think that. It happens all the time in real life.


Yes! That's right! (And I understand that you intended the above for
my education; I haven't missed your point) But, why do you attach
psychiatric labels and words like "loon" to him when "to make character
and psychological judgments about someone based on reading a few posts
is not only short-sighted, it's plain ridiculous,"? You're doing
exactly what you've just condemned! And this happens almost exclusively
with John Wolf.
Does that not raise some small red flag for you? At all?


See above.

So...no, then?


How would your flock respond if they could read what you post
here?


I have no idea.

Yeah. I think you have *some* idea. And I think you have some idea of
what the consequences might be, too. Never the less, your claim to
"have no idea", is likely true (I know, because I've been there). It
points to a lack of accountability and specific ethical standards
amongst the clergy. It's a troubling reality.


The volumes which concern me are the ones spoken by your
deflection of focus *back* on to this person.


You see it as "deflection of focus", I see it as John Wolf is the
topic, not me.

Why is John Wolf the topic? Why not somebody else? What's the payoff?


"Why this guy?"


Can't answer that one.

Yes, you can. Plus, it's your responsibility to try. Apparently,
nobody taught you this: in cases like this, where we feel inexplicably
drawn to a helpee/client/other, helpers have a responsibility to explain
such a mysterious attraction. Why? To make sure the "heart for" the
other person isn't, in reality, a way for us to get our own needs met.
As helpers, it's our ethical responsibility to "first, do no harm".

But for some reason I have a heart for John
Wolf. Whatever it takes to get him to listen, I'll do it. Not to the
extent that others here in these groups will take it, but in some cases
I will be extreme. You see it as abusive, I don't.

"I've made up my mind. Don't confuse me with the facts."
You're the ordained, trusted, educated, socially adept one. He's the
one whose antics are more to be pitied than ridiculed. Ergo, you're in
the power position. The way you're using your power is abusive.
It strikes me that the Jesus character was in much the same position.
How did he use his power? Was overturning money-changing tables, and
calling people snakes and tombs, a daily event? Did he ridicule and dig
up dirt on people in need of healing? Did he constantly pursue people
who rejected his teaching? Didn't he say something about shaking the
dust off one's feet?
.
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?KioqV2j2c/ZldmVyKioq?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 04 Sep 2006 11:57:37 AM
Just Mark wrote:

You don't owe me an explanation. If you were led to believe otherwise,
then I should have been clearer.

Yep.

You owe it to yourself, and to those
you serve, to understand why this guy consumes so much of your time and
energy--or at the very least, why he attracts so much of your attention.

Once again, I don't owe you any explaination. Of course I know why I
spend time trying to ferret out Wolf and get him to see the "error of
his ways". I was being obtuse in the previous post because as I have
told you before - your questioning is becoming quite tedious. I've
already explained the why's and wherefores a few months ago. I'm not
going to keep explaining it - to you or anyone else or even myself.
Sure, I'll take a reality check every once in a while, but continually
questioning myself is not prudent, nor is it healthy. I know what I
know what I know. If you choose to disbelieve me, that's your burden -
not mine.

Because I think you're being dishonest with yourself. Somebody who has
the education, qualifications, and public trust you claim to have simply
ought to be behaving differently in this situation.

In your opinion. Remember - Usenet is a one-dimensional relationship.

As an ordained minister, do you have nobody to whom you report? Do you
have no supervisor with whom you meet; somebody you can trust to say,
"Kelly, I think you're way to wrapped up in this to be objective,"?

Sure I do. What makes you think I've not done this? Again, you
presume too much.

There we go: case in point (hearing things that aren't said and saying
things that aren't heard). I offered an explanation for your behavior
which exonerates you, and what you read was "He takes him self too
seriously."

Yep.

As far as diagnosing, again, you're condemning the very thing you
yourself are prone to do. Or, what you see as the very thing,
anyway...for I have offered no diagnosis here.

Which takes me back to a point I meant to make in a previous post:
I was not attempting to "diagnose" John as MPD - I ASKED him if he was
MPD. Big difference. Just like the alleged Asperger's diagnosis, John
has neither confirmed or denied either one. He may be playing us. He
may be the smartest guy on the planet. He may be sitting back reading
all this and getting a big kick out of how well he has manipulated us
all in free.christians. The point is that unless we know each other on
a one-on-one face-to-face personal basis Usenet is useless in giving a
satisfacory relationship experience because it's just the internet.
What I may accomplish with John Wolf may never be known to me. I'm
okay with that. Just like I'm okay with giving a supposed homeless
person on the street a $20 bill. I won't ever know if they put that
money to good use or spent it on booze - but my heart was in the right
place when I did it and I allowed God to work out the details and the
control of the situation is out of my hands.
And I'm okay with that.
<snipped redundant paragraphs>

Yes, you can. Plus, it's your responsibility to try. Apparently,
nobody taught you this:

Stop. There you go again with the assumptions. How can you possibly
ascertain whether or not I've been taught something from what I write
in Usenet? Practical Answer: YOU CAN'T.

in cases like this, where we feel inexplicably
drawn to a helpee/client/other, helpers have a responsibility to explain
such a mysterious attraction. Why? To make sure the "heart for" the
other person isn't, in reality, a way for us to get our own needs met.
As helpers, it's our ethical responsibility to "first, do no harm".

Yes, we are to do no harm intentionally.

"I've made up my mind. Don't confuse me with the facts."

Now you're being arrogant (again).

You're the ordained, trusted, educated, socially adept one. He's the
one whose antics are more to be pitied than ridiculed. Ergo, you're in
the power position. The way you're using your power is abusive.

In your opinion.

It strikes me that the Jesus character

Jesus was (and is) more than a "character". It's one thing to try an
control and denigrate me, but attempting the same with the Son of
God...well, let's just say that you're treading on dangerous ground.
Something about "blasphem[ing] the Holy Spirit"...

was in much the same position.
How did he use his power? Was overturning money-changing tables, and
calling people snakes and tombs, a daily event?

Nope.

Did he ridicule and dig
up dirt on people in need of healing?

Nope.

Did he constantly pursue people
who rejected his teaching?

Nuh-uh.

Didn't he say something about shaking the
dust off one's feet?

Yep.
But Jesus was (and is) God in the flesh. While we are to emulate Him,
we cannot expect to be exactly like Him - ever - while we are still
walking the earth. Even the Apostle Paul said "why do I do the things
I don't want to and not do the things I should?" (paraphrase).
.
User: "Just Mark"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor SteveWinter? 04 Sep 2006 04:29:30 PM
***Whösöever*** wrote:

Just Mark wrote:

You don't owe me an explanation. If you were led to believe otherwise,
then I should have been clearer.


Yep.

You owe it to yourself, and to those
you serve, to understand why this guy consumes so much of your time and
energy--or at the very least, why he attracts so much of your attention.


Once again, I don't owe you any explaination. Of course I know why I
spend time trying to ferret out Wolf and get him to see the "error of
his ways". I was being obtuse in the previous post because as I have
told you before - your questioning is becoming quite tedious. I've
already explained the why's and wherefores a few months ago. I'm not
going to keep explaining it - to you or anyone else or even myself.
Sure, I'll take a reality check every once in a while, but continually
questioning myself is not prudent, nor is it healthy. I know what I
know what I know. If you choose to disbelieve me, that's your burden -
not mine.

There you go again: "continually question myself". When did I ever
suggest that? And, when is the next "reality check" scheduled?
You know what you know what you know. Well, bully for you. Since
there's no further capacity for learning in you, I'll leave you to your
delusions of efficacy.


Because I think you're being dishonest with yourself. Somebody who has
the education, qualifications, and public trust you claim to have simply
ought to be behaving differently in this situation.


In your opinion. Remember - Usenet is a one-dimensional relationship.

You keep saying that, but I don't think you've thought it through. Is
"change" one-dimensional? You're trying to affect change in Wolf.


As an ordained minister, do you have nobody to whom you report? Do you
have no supervisor with whom you meet; somebody you can trust to say,
"Kelly, I think you're way to wrapped up in this to be objective,"?


Sure I do. What makes you think I've not done this? Again, you
presume too much.

As do you.
What makes me think you've not done this? Mostly, your treatment of
people here. And please don't appeal to the obscuring properties of
Usenet; it's a cop-out. A person can/does communicate profound aspects
of their experience and personality here. If you wanted to communicate
warmth here, you most certainly could do it. That you don't choose to
do so, and instead wield your power at the easiest target, communicates
a poor message. The fact that you simultaneously claim to be member of
the Christian clergy is terrifying.


There we go: case in point (hearing things that aren't said and saying
things that aren't heard). I offered an explanation for your behavior
which exonerates you, and what you read was "He takes him self too
seriously."


Yep.

Then it's your loss.


As far as diagnosing, again, you're condemning the very thing you
yourself are prone to do. Or, what you see as the very thing,
anyway...for I have offered no diagnosis here.


Which takes me back to a point I meant to make in a previous post:

I was not attempting to "diagnose" John as MPD - I ASKED him if he was
MPD. Big difference.

Irrelevant to my point in that post; which was that you don't know what
you're talking about. You're not only using outdated nomenclature,
you're *mis*using it. It's very revealing. I'm encouraging you to
stick to what you know.

Just like the alleged Asperger's diagnosis, John
has neither confirmed or denied either one. He may be playing us. He
may be the smartest guy on the planet. He may be sitting back reading
all this and getting a big kick out of how well he has manipulated us
all in free.christians. The point is that unless we know each other on
a one-on-one face-to-face personal basis Usenet is useless in giving a
satisfacory relationship experience because it's just the internet.

I couldn't agree with you more. And it brings up the question again;
knowing the Usenet experience as you've just described it, why waste
another useless moment on it?

What I may accomplish with John Wolf may never be known to me. I'm
okay with that. Just like I'm okay with giving a supposed homeless
person on the street a $20 bill. I won't ever know if they put that
money to good use or spent it on booze - but my heart was in the right
place when I did it and I allowed God to work out the details and the
control of the situation is out of my hands.

And I'm okay with that.

Now I know you've never done this before. Not handing out money can be
just as helpful as handing out money...sometimes more so. Not giving
Wolf attention can be just as therapeutic (if you will) as trying to
mentor him.


<snipped redundant paragraphs>

Yes, you can. Plus, it's your responsibility to try. Apparently,
nobody taught you this:


Stop. There you go again with the assumptions. How can you possibly
ascertain whether or not I've been taught something from what I write
in Usenet? Practical Answer: YOU CAN'T.

Yes, I can. If you'd been taught the importance of working through
transference/counter-transference issues with an objective supervisor,
you would a) not abuse your privileged position, and b) welcome the
observations I've offered, c) never just appeal to "having a heart for"
somebody.


in cases like this, where we feel inexplicably
drawn to a helpee/client/other, helpers have a responsibility to explain
such a mysterious attraction. Why? To make sure the "heart for" the
other person isn't, in reality, a way for us to get our own needs met.
As helpers, it's our ethical responsibility to "first, do no harm".


Yes, we are to do no harm intentionally.

Believe me, Kelly: if I suspected that you were a state licensed
professional, I'm certain I could not only demonstrate harm, but also
intention...and I would do so.
Luckily for you, your demonstrated level of competence here suggests
that--at best--you're a lay minister with little formal
psychotherapeutic training/experience, and no legal licensure
accountability.


"I've made up my mind. Don't confuse me with the facts."


Now you're being arrogant (again).

Nope. I'm reflecting back what you wrote. You wrote, "You see it as
abusive, I don't." You're only interested in your perspective.


You're the ordained, trusted, educated, socially adept one. He's the
one whose antics are more to be pitied than ridiculed. Ergo, you're in
the power position. The way you're using your power is abusive.


In your opinion.

And in the opinion of at least one ethics board I'm quite familiar with.


It strikes me that the Jesus character


Jesus was (and is) more than a "character". It's one thing to try an
control and denigrate me, but attempting the same with the Son of
God...well, let's just say that you're treading on dangerous ground.
Something about "blasphem[ing] the Holy Spirit"...

How ironic that I know your Bible better than you do. Check the context
of that scripture, Kelly. You'll find that anything committed against
the Son of Man will be forgiven. You'll also find that Jesus was
talking about something quite specific: calling an obvious work of the
Holy Spirit a work of Satan.
Here endeth that lesson.


was in much the same position.
How did he use his power? Was overturning money-changing tables, and
calling people snakes and tombs, a daily event?


Nope.

Then why do you keep doing it?
http://groups.google.com/group/free.christians/msg/96869fb39755ea56?hl=en&


Did he ridicule and dig
up dirt on people in need of healing?


Nope.

Then why do you keep doing it?
http://groups.google.com/group/free.christians/msg/379ab3f5c142ca8f?hl=en&


Did he constantly pursue people
who rejected his teaching?


Nuh-uh.

Then why do you keep doing it?


Didn't he say something about shaking the
dust off one's feet?


Yep.

But Jesus was (and is) God in the flesh. While we are to emulate Him,
we cannot expect to be exactly like Him - ever - while we are still
walking the earth. Even the Apostle Paul said "why do I do the things
I don't want to and not do the things I should?" (paraphrase).

So, you're powerless to follow Jesus's example and do what he commanded?
Do you ever actually read that thing you claim to treasure?
"You are my friends if you do what I command." (Jesus, John 15:14, not a
paraphrase)
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Jesus,
Matthew 5:48, not a paraphrase)
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may
increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus
were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through
baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the
dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will
certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that
our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be
done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because
anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with
him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot
die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he
died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in
Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that
you obey its evil desires." (Paul, Romans 6:1-12, not a paraphrase)
Okay...I'm done with this post. You may now selectively snip away the
bits that make you uncomfortable, and answer only the parts you think
you can spin to make yourself feel better. Not that lack of permission
has stopped you from doing that in the past.
.
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?KioqV2j2c/ZldmVyKioq?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 04 Sep 2006 05:34:40 PM
Just Mark wrote:

There you go again: "continually question myself". When did I ever
suggest that? And, when is the next "reality check" scheduled?

You obviously don't get it, and probably aren't going to get it,
therefore I will stop trying to help you get it.

You know what you know what you know. Well, bully for you. Since
there's no further capacity for learning in you, I'll leave you to your
delusions of efficacy.

Again with the arrogant presumptions. Whatever.

You keep saying that, but I don't think you've thought it through.

Of course you don't...me telling you hasn't been good enough for you
yet, why should I expect it it to be good enough for you now or in the
future?

Sure I do. What makes you think I've not done this? Again, you
presume too much.

As do you.

???

What makes me think you've not done this? Mostly, your treatment of
people here. And please don't appeal to the obscuring properties of
Usenet; it's a cop-out.

Oh, okay. Silly me, I forgot that you know all...

A person can/does communicate profound aspects
of their experience and personality here. If you wanted to communicate
warmth here, you most certainly could do it.

And have...

That you don't choose to
do so,

Again - silly me, I forgot that you know all...

and instead wield your power at the easiest target, communicates
a poor message. The fact that you simultaneously claim to be member of
the Christian clergy is terrifying.

Terrifying...yeah that's the ticket.

I was not attempting to "diagnose" John as MPD - I ASKED him if he was
MPD. Big difference.

Irrelevant to my point in that post; which was that you don't know what
you're talking about. You're not only using outdated nomenclature,
you're *mis*using it. It's very revealing.

It's very revealing...oh, yeah. Again, you know all...

I'm encouraging you to
stick to what you know.

And I'm encouraging you to stick with what *you* know...oh, yeah! YOU
know ALL!!!

I couldn't agree with you more. And it brings up the question again;
knowing the Usenet experience as you've just described it, why waste
another useless moment on it?

Asked and answered a couple of months ago. If you've forgotten the
answer...oh, yeah - that's right! You know all, therefore it's
impossible for you to have forgotten...!

Now I know you've never done this before. Not handing out money can be
just as helpful as handing out money...sometimes more so.

Now how on earth would you know I've never...oops! Forgot again; all
knowing...

Yes, I can. If you'd been taught the importance of working through
transference/counter-transference issues with an objective supervisor,
you would a) not abuse your privileged position, and b) welcome the
observations I've offered, c) never just appeal to "having a heart for"
somebody.

To quote you: "bully for you".

Believe me, Kelly: if I suspected that you were a state licensed
professional, I'm certain I could not only demonstrate harm, but also
intention...and I would do so.

Never claimed to be a "state licensed profession" anything here. But I
could be...nah! You'd already know, right?

Luckily for you, your demonstrated level of competence here suggests
that--at best--you're a lay minister with little formal
psychotherapeutic training/experience, and no legal licensure
accountability.

Once again, because you know all - I'm just going to defer to your
omniscence...

Now you're being arrogant (again).


Nope. I'm reflecting back what you wrote. You wrote, "You see it as
abusive, I don't." You're only interested in your perspective.

Not so - I'm interested in the perspective of those I respect. You
don't have that level of credibility with me.

And in the opinion of at least one ethics board I'm quite familiar with.

Ooooooooh! Is that a threat????

How ironic that I know your Bible better than you do.

LOL!

Check the context
of that scripture, Kelly. You'll find that anything committed against
the Son of Man will be forgiven. You'll also find that Jesus was
talking about something quite specific: calling an obvious work of the
Holy Spirit a work of Satan.

Fascinating! An interpretation of Scripture from someone who denies
the presence of the Holy Spirit in their life and has never seriously
studied theology...
Hmmm...

Here endeth that lesson.

Gee thanks, Yoda.

So, you're powerless to follow Jesus's example and do what he commanded?

Not what I said.

Do you ever actually read that thing you claim to treasure?

Plenty.

"You are my friends if you do what I command." (Jesus, John 15:14, not a
paraphrase)

You forgot to mention what Jesus' command was in order to get a clear
picture of what that verse really means.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Jesus,
Matthew 5:48, not a paraphrase)

Sorry, but your intent to scald me here doesn't work.
The use of the word "perfect" here is referring to being without
blemish. Impossible for an unsaved person but possible only through
the acceptance of Christ's paschal sacrifice for us. When God sees us
through the shed blood of Jesus He then sees us a perfect (it's the
only way we as humans can truly be in His presence). Without the blood
of Christ covering our sins and sinful nature we are imperfect and
unable to enter into the Holy of Holies. One who belongs to Christ by
grace through faith in Him is perfect. One who rejects Christ and His
sacrifice for their sins isn't.
Obviously YOU need to stick with what you know and avoid that which you
know nothing of...
I guess you aren't so omniscent after all... ;-)

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may
increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus
were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through
baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the
dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will
certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that
our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be
done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin- because
anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with
him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot
die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he
died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in
Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that
you obey its evil desires." (Paul, Romans 6:1-12, not a paraphrase)

Apply this verse to my last comment above and you'll be more in the
ballpark.

Okay...I'm done with this post.

Thank goodness!

You may now selectively snip away the
bits that make you uncomfortable, and answer only the parts you think
you can spin to make yourself feel better. Not that lack of permission
has stopped you from doing that in the past.

zzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz......
(heavy sigh)
.
User: "Just Mark"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor SteveWinter? 04 Sep 2006 08:10:01 PM
***Whösöever*** wrote:

Just Mark wrote:

There you go again: "continually question myself". When did I ever
suggest that? And, when is the next "reality check" scheduled?


You obviously don't get it, and probably aren't going to get it,
therefore I will stop trying to help you get it.

You know what you know what you know. Well, bully for you. Since
there's no further capacity for learning in you, I'll leave you to your
delusions of efficacy.


Again with the arrogant presumptions. Whatever.

You keep saying that, but I don't think you've thought it through.


Of course you don't...me telling you hasn't been good enough for you
yet, why should I expect it it to be good enough for you now or in the
future?

Sure I do. What makes you think I've not done this? Again, you
presume too much.


As do you.


???

What makes me think you've not done this? Mostly, your treatment of
people here. And please don't appeal to the obscuring properties of
Usenet; it's a cop-out.


Oh, okay. Silly me, I forgot that you know all...

A person can/does communicate profound aspects
of their experience and personality here. If you wanted to communicate
warmth here, you most certainly could do it.


And have...

That you don't choose to
do so,


Again - silly me, I forgot that you know all...

and instead wield your power at the easiest target, communicates
a poor message. The fact that you simultaneously claim to be member of
the Christian clergy is terrifying.


Terrifying...yeah that's the ticket.

I was not attempting to "diagnose" John as MPD - I ASKED him if he was
MPD. Big difference.


Irrelevant to my point in that post; which was that you don't know what
you're talking about. You're not only using outdated nomenclature,
you're *mis*using it. It's very revealing.


It's very revealing...oh, yeah. Again, you know all...

Yeah, okay...this is just sad, now.
<snip>
.
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?KioqV2j2c/ZldmVyKioq?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 04 Sep 2006 08:31:54 PM
Just Mark wrote:

Yeah, okay...this is just sad, now.
<snip>

You're really a hoot - do you know that?
LOL
.
User: "Just Mark"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor SteveWinter? 04 Sep 2006 08:59:28 PM
***Whösöever*** wrote:

Just Mark wrote:

Yeah, okay...this is just sad, now.
<snip>


You're really a hoot - do you know that?

LOL

You're living below your potential.
.
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?KioqV2j2c/ZldmVyKioq?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 04 Sep 2006 09:09:34 PM
Just Mark wrote:

You're living below your potential.

Aren't we all in at least one area or another?
.






User: "Bible Bob"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 04 Sep 2006 12:42:50 PM
On 4 Sep 2006 09:57:37 -0700, "***Whösöever***"
<ontheskagit@verizon.net> wrote:


Just Mark wrote:

You don't owe me an explanation. If you were led to believe otherwise,
then I should have been clearer.


Yep.

You owe it to yourself, and to those
you serve, to understand why this guy consumes so much of your time and
energy--or at the very least, why he attracts so much of your attention.


Once again, I don't owe you any explaination. Of course I know why I
spend time trying to ferret out Wolf and get him to see the "error of
his ways". I was being obtuse in the previous post because as I have
told you before - your questioning is becoming quite tedious. I've
already explained the why's and wherefores a few months ago. I'm not
going to keep explaining it - to you or anyone else or even myself.
Sure, I'll take a reality check every once in a while, but continually
questioning myself is not prudent, nor is it healthy. I know what I
know what I know. If you choose to disbelieve me, that's your burden -
not mine.

Because I think you're being dishonest with yourself. Somebody who has
the education, qualifications, and public trust you claim to have simply
ought to be behaving differently in this situation.


In your opinion. Remember - Usenet is a one-dimensional relationship.

As an ordained minister, do you have nobody to whom you report? Do you
have no supervisor with whom you meet; somebody you can trust to say,
"Kelly, I think you're way to wrapped up in this to be objective,"?


Sure I do. What makes you think I've not done this? Again, you
presume too much.

There we go: case in point (hearing things that aren't said and saying
things that aren't heard). I offered an explanation for your behavior
which exonerates you, and what you read was "He takes him self too
seriously."


Yep.

As far as diagnosing, again, you're condemning the very thing you
yourself are prone to do. Or, what you see as the very thing,
anyway...for I have offered no diagnosis here.


Which takes me back to a point I meant to make in a previous post:

I was not attempting to "diagnose" John as MPD - I ASKED him if he was
MPD. Big difference. Just like the alleged Asperger's diagnosis, John
has neither confirmed or denied either one. He may be playing us. He
may be the smartest guy on the planet. He may be sitting back reading
all this and getting a big kick out of how well he has manipulated us
all in free.christians. The point is that unless we know each other on
a one-on-one face-to-face personal basis Usenet is useless in giving a
satisfacory relationship experience because it's just the internet.
What I may accomplish with John Wolf may never be known to me. I'm
okay with that. Just like I'm okay with giving a supposed homeless
person on the street a $20 bill. I won't ever know if they put that
money to good use or spent it on booze - but my heart was in the right
place when I did it and I allowed God to work out the details and the
control of the situation is out of my hands.

And I'm okay with that.

<snipped redundant paragraphs>

Yes, you can. Plus, it's your responsibility to try. Apparently,
nobody taught you this:


Stop. There you go again with the assumptions. How can you possibly
ascertain whether or not I've been taught something from what I write
in Usenet? Practical Answer: YOU CAN'T.

in cases like this, where we feel inexplicably
drawn to a helpee/client/other, helpers have a responsibility to explain
such a mysterious attraction. Why? To make sure the "heart for" the
other person isn't, in reality, a way for us to get our own needs met.
As helpers, it's our ethical responsibility to "first, do no harm".


Yes, we are to do no harm intentionally.

"I've made up my mind. Don't confuse me with the facts."


Now you're being arrogant (again).

You're the ordained, trusted, educated, socially adept one. He's the
one whose antics are more to be pitied than ridiculed. Ergo, you're in
the power position. The way you're using your power is abusive.


In your opinion.

It strikes me that the Jesus character


Jesus was (and is) more than a "character". It's one thing to try an
control and denigrate me, but attempting the same with the Son of
God...well, let's just say that you're treading on dangerous ground.
Something about "blasphem[ing] the Holy Spirit"...

was in much the same position.
How did he use his power? Was overturning money-changing tables, and
calling people snakes and tombs, a daily event?


Nope.

Did he ridicule and dig
up dirt on people in need of healing?


Nope.

Did he constantly pursue people
who rejected his teaching?


Nuh-uh.

Didn't he say something about shaking the
dust off one's feet?


Yep.

But Jesus was (and is) God in the flesh. While we are to emulate Him,
we cannot expect to be exactly like Him - ever - while we are still
walking the earth. Even the Apostle Paul said "why do I do the things
I don't want to and not do the things I should?" (paraphrase).

Ah, Romans Seven, the first chapter in the Bible discussed in a Sunday
school class that I attended after being saved. Took me a lot of
years to work out the following. Notice the seven usages of "thelo"
(will) on the right side in the following verses. Seven times he
wills, wants, or would do right.
Romans 7:15-21 KJV
15 For that which I do I allow {approve} not: for what I would {Gr.
thelo}, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would {Gr. thelo} not, I consent unto
the law that [it is] good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good
thing: for to will {Gr. thelo} is present with me; but [how] to
perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would {Gr. thelo} I do not: but the evil which
I would {Gr. thelo} not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would {Gr. thelo} not, it is no more I that do
it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would {Gr. thelo} do good, evil is
present with me.
In verse 15, there are three Greek words translated "do." The first
is "katergazomai", work out, in vv.8.12.15.17.18.20. The second is
"prasso", practice, in vs 15,19 and the third is "poieo," do, in vv
15, 16, 19, 20, 21.
In every case in verses 15-21 the word "not" is translated from "ou";
expressing full and direct negation independently and absolutely,
hence objective. Had "me" been the Greek word, then "not" would have
expressed a dependent and conditional negation depending on the idea,
conception, or thoughts of some subject, and therefore subjective.
Romans 7:24-25 KJV
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of
this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I
myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1 KJV
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
There should not have been a chapter division at verse 25 because 8:1
(therefore) points to the cause for what was said in verse 25. The
editors tried to explain this by adding the marked ellipsis "[There
is]" and supplying the words "who walk not after the flesh, but after
the Spirit." that are not in the text. Subsequent passages speak of
the walk in the spirit whichy is what "in Chirst" refers to.
......
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
.









User: "Falcon"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 01 Sep 2006 08:37:12 PM
On 1 Sep 2006 18:05:01 -0700, "***Whösöever***"
<ontheskagit@verizon.net> wrote:


Just Mark wrote:

Wow. The more I read your responses to John, the more I realize: this
isn't about helping John at all. Is it? This is about helping *you*.
This is about exorcising your own demons. It's a vicarious cleansing by
reaction formation.
What do you know about John's experience that mirrors your own?


Once again (while trying to figure me out) you couldn't be more wrong.

Oh, well. As long as you're entertained, I guess...

Not necessarily entertaining, more like a train wreck. Want to look
away from a self-destructing minister (so-called) but cannot. You
just keep showing us more and more of your true nature which is
farther and farther away from Godly behavior.
--
Ciao,
Falcon
.
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?KioqV2j2c/ZldmVyKioq?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 02 Sep 2006 12:09:34 AM
Falcon wrote:

Not necessarily entertaining, more like a train wreck. Want to look
away from a self-destructing minister (so-called) but cannot. You
just keep showing us more and more of your true nature which is
farther and farther away from Godly behavior.

Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay. Sure.
.

User: "Dave"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 01 Sep 2006 10:08:35 PM
Falcon wrote:

On 1 Sep 2006 18:05:01 -0700, "***Wh=F6s=F6ever***"
<ontheskagit@verizon.net> wrote:


Just Mark wrote:

Wow. The more I read your responses to John, the more I realize: this
isn't about helping John at all. Is it? This is about helping *you*.
This is about exorcising your own demons. It's a vicarious cleansing =

by

reaction formation.
What do you know about John's experience that mirrors your own?


Once again (while trying to figure me out) you couldn't be more wrong.

Oh, well. As long as you're entertained, I guess...


Not necessarily entertaining, more like a train wreck. Want to look
away from a self-destructing minister (so-called) but cannot. You
just keep showing us more and more of your true nature which is
farther and farther away from Godly behavior.

On the other hand, if more so-called "Christians" spent more time
reigning in and rebuking other so-called "Christians" instead of hiding
behind their Bibles, I suspect that the trainwrecks that litter the
landscape in these newsgroups would be fewer and farther between.
That's just one take on it, of course; but every time a phony
"Christian" goes tearing through the newsgroups without being
challenged by his or her "brethren," and it falls to unbelievers to
issue the falsifications and rebukes, it's that much easier to show
that, when it gets right down to it, there's not much power to the
faith.
.
User: "Just Mark"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor SteveWinter? 02 Sep 2006 12:34:34 AM
Dave wrote:

Falcon wrote:

On 1 Sep 2006 18:05:01 -0700, "***Whösöever***"
<ontheskagit@verizon.net> wrote:

Just Mark wrote:

Wow. The more I read your responses to John, the more I realize: this
isn't about helping John at all. Is it? This is about helping *you*.
This is about exorcising your own demons. It's a vicarious cleansing by
reaction formation.
What do you know about John's experience that mirrors your own?

Once again (while trying to figure me out) you couldn't be more wrong.

Oh, well. As long as you're entertained, I guess...

Not necessarily entertaining, more like a train wreck. Want to look
away from a self-destructing minister (so-called) but cannot. You
just keep showing us more and more of your true nature which is
farther and farther away from Godly behavior.


On the other hand, if more so-called "Christians" spent more time
reigning in and rebuking other so-called "Christians" instead of hiding
behind their Bibles, I suspect that the trainwrecks that litter the
landscape in these newsgroups would be fewer and farther between.

I agree in principle, of course. And if that were Kelly's motivation,
I'd give a big "harumph!" I had held out hope that a person who could
simultaneously hold the apparent contradictions of Christianity and
active lesbianism, might also be mature enough to find a way to reach
into Wolf's world and do some good. I thought Kelly was such a person.
Alas, I was wrong about her.


That's just one take on it, of course; but every time a phony
"Christian" goes tearing through the newsgroups without being
challenged by his or her "brethren," and it falls to unbelievers to
issue the falsifications and rebukes, it's that much easier to show
that, when it gets right down to it, there's not much power to the
faith.

How true; and how sad. I think that the intention of its founder was
otherwise. Unfortunately, its proponents here use it to escape
responsibility, relieve existential angst, and club each other over the
head.
.

User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?KioqV2j2c/ZldmVyKioq?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 02 Sep 2006 12:24:56 AM
Dave wrote:

That's just one take on it, of course; but every time a phony
"Christian" goes tearing through the newsgroups without being
challenged by his or her "brethren," and it falls to unbelievers to
issue the falsifications and rebukes, it's that much easier to show
that, when it gets right down to it, there's not much power to the
faith.

The theme I'm getting from you lately, Dave, is that you keep looking
to Christians to be the definition of Christianity - but you're looking
in the wrong place. Followers of Christ didn't die on the cross for
the redemption of mankind, rather it was Jesus who did that and it is
Jesus that you should look to for your definition of Christianity.
It's true that Christians are *supposed* to be better than they are and
act better than they do - but even the Apostle Paul was forced to say
that he didn't know why he did the things he didn't want to and didn't
do the things he knew he should.
The focus of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is not perfection
after redemption but that redemption can be claimed EVEN in
imperfection - that's the miracle. Christianity is not a destination
but a journey. Some Christians take the high road, some take the low
but in the end we all get to the same place if we have salvation by
faith through grace. Why? Because God has promised His own that very
result and because God cannot lie and because God is faithful. Does
Wolf make a very bad advertisement for God right now at this point in
his life? Absolutely. Do I make a bad advertisement for God?
Sometimes - yes I do. Is any Christian perfect - and furthermore are
they expected to be? NO.
Don't look to Jesus followers to be the ultimate test - look to Jesus.
.
User: "Dave"

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter? 02 Sep 2006 11:45:47 PM
***Wh=F6s=F6ever*** wrote:

Dave wrote:

That's just one take on it, of course; but every time a phony
"Christian" goes tearing through the newsgroups without being
challenged by his or her "brethren," and it falls to unbelievers to
issue the falsifications and rebukes, it's that much easier to show
that, when it gets right down to it, there's not much power to the
faith.


The theme I'm getting from you lately, Dave, is that you keep
looking to Christians to be the definition of Christianity...

Bzzt. Sorry...wrong answer; but thanks for playing.
Reading through all that I have had to say on the matter, both recently
and in the past, clears it up. I don't look to Christians to "define"
Christianity, but whether they like it or not, and whether they accept
the responsibility or not, they do *represent* it every time they post
something in a newsgroup, appear on camera in a news broadcast, or flip
someone off in traffic while displaying a "Jesus" fish on the bumper of
the mini-van.
"Christians behaving badly" is exceptionally common, and that
commonality is well-illustrated in these groups. When Christians are
incapable of actually living by the standards that they claim, or when
they fail (or refuse) to allow the Holy Spirit to convict them of their
sin(s) (and that's for the sake of argument) and resist, they show
weakness of faith and even a lack of faith.
No one would deny that Christians are human, however, let's consider
the newsgroup postings, for a moment. To use a Weatherlyism which
really isn't original with him, no one points a gun to the head of the
Christian who posts a nasty or hateful message to the newsgroups, and
I'll even grant the cathartic value of just sitting down at the
keyboard and ripping on someone who is annoying or provacative. But
there is always that little bit of time between the time that we
compose a message and the time that we post it. During that time,
shouldn't the Holy Spirit be an influence? If Christians are to "pray
without ceasing," do they post without praying, and allow themselves a
small degree of self-safisfaction before the next round of posts gets
them riled, again? Is self-satisfaction what their Christianity is all
about?
(I have a larger argument that says that it is, but that's another
argument and fodder for more lengthy articles best reserved for another
time and place.)
I was a Christian long enough to know that Christians don't "define"
Christianity, and I've never stated nor even implied that they did.
They do, however, *represent* it, and certain standards that are
relatively well-known to most, even if we don't give them much thought
(certainly, *Christians* don't commonly give them much thought), are
quite reasonably expected. If Christians *routinely* fail to live by
those standards, they show a weakness in the faith, or a lack of
confidence in the salvation experience and the power that is allegedly
available to them to resist sin. In effect, the faith is meaningless
to them as a matter of routine. If it's meaningless to them, it can't
be communicated as potentially meaningful to the "unsaved" by these
very same people. The catch-phrase that I used, years ago, was "the
witness is as important as the message." If the Christian routinely
engages in behavior that makes him or her even *appear* to be
insincere, they have no chance of being effective evangelists, and all
Christians are called to be evangelists.
I've gone into considerably greater detail, with examples, before.
I've explained that the behavior of certain Christians is not a measure
of the validity of the faith, but it does serve as a data point,
especially when this bad behavior is so common. There are lots of
good, objective, empirical, and evidenciary reasons to reject
Christianity. The behavior of Christians is a relatively minor one
when compared to the rest; but it cannot be dismissed in so cavalier a
fashion as you would appear to be doing here, and as has been done by
others, as well. =20
[Snip remaining argument based on false premise.]
.
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?KioqV2j2c/ZldmVyKioq?="

Title: Re: Question from my Cousin: Why does Dave Horn not hate Pastor Steve Winter?