| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
30 Jul 2007 02:36:13 AM |
| Object: |
questions |
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and
punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young
and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions
of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children"
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious affiliation?
.
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| User: "Sanitys Little Helper" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
30 Jul 2007 03:03:56 AM |
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wrote in
news:41f76d3d524115e31de215a93e9f3cd3@remailer.metacolo.com to
alt.atheism:
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions,
Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect
and
punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both
young
and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish
millions
of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent
children"
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and
others pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to
deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of
their religious affiliation?
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/r/randy_newman/gods_song_crd.htm
--
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N.
aa #2208
"If you are informed by God, you can be misinformed by nobody" - Osama
Bin Laden
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| User: "James" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
07 Sep 2007 12:13:49 PM |
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santana@watch.me.hide.net
Re: questions
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and
punish mankind indiscriminately.
Hello,
There is no indication in the Bible that God today is causing those
maladies you mention above. It is true that in the past God used such
things to judge certain wicked peoples. But today we are under a
different arrangement (Jer 31:31-33) and God's judgements against
humans are being withheld for a particular "day". Ac 17:31,
"For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the
man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising
him from the dead." (NIV)
Thus all those things you mentioned above are not from God, but are
from the natural random forces at work. Yes, the Bible tells us that
not every happening is from God, but rather random chance effects us
all. Ec 9:11,
"I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the
swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or
wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance
happen to them all." (NIV)
Why does he permit millions of both young
and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions
of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children"
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.?
True, God permits (doesn't cause) such maladies. So why does God
permit suffering etc? Since He has the power, why don't He stop it? He
will stop it soon. But for the present He permits it for some
universally important reasons that will effect everyone eternally.
One reason is because of an extremely important issue raised back in
Eden. God originally created man and put him in a beautiful
garden-like place that had all kinds of delicious foods. (Ge 2:15,16)
God also created man to live forever on the earth, IF he continually
obeyed. (Ge 2:17) Disobedience was the only condition that would bring
death and end his eternal existence on this earth.
When God created the earth and man, all His other living intelligent
beings, the angels, saw what He did. They observed the situation that
occurred in Eden. A rebellious angel, Satan (cowardly hiding behind a
serpent), talked to Eve and told her that God had lied and that doing
things her way could prove beneficial to her; that Eve would do better
if she decided for herself what was right and wrong. (Ge 3:3,4)
Eve took the bate, fell for it and disobeyed, and Adam later joined
her. Right then and there they rejected God and His perfect guidance,
and instead went with their own.
If God would have destroyed the rebels right then, all the other
intelligent beings that God created would never know if Satan was
right. (also none of us would be here today since we are all direct
descendants of Adam and Eve) Thus throughout all eternity there would
be doubts if God's ways are really the best ways. And intelligent
creatures at times, no doubt would forever challenge God's ways. So
much for endless peace and harmony.
God, in His wisdom and in His mercy, permitted the challenge to His
sovereignty to continue, to prove that only His ways are correct. So,
God had to settle the issue. But such an issue would take time so
Satan could not claim that God didn't let enough time elapse to prove
Satan's case. Also if God stepped in before every 'natural disaster'
(see Job below) or evil human action, Satan could claim that God is
intervening and not allowing humans to take care of such things. So at
the present God is letting humans 'run the show'. That means that the
whole world is basically ran by Satan. Joh 12:31,
"Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world
be cast out;" (RSV)
The first human couple listened to that liar, and disobeyed God. As
God said would happen, it brought on death. But in order for a perfect
body to die without any outside help, it has to become imperfect. And
since Adam and Eve were mercifully permitted to have offspring, (as
said before, if He destroyed them right in the beginning, none of us
would be here today) we also inherited that imperfection.
Later, Satan again challenged God saying that humans would not serve
God if faced with adversity of any kind. (see Job 1:9-12; 2:4,5)
Satan has been proven to be the liar that he is. Mankind has
demonstrated over the centuries that he cannot govern himself with
complete success. Mankind is even 'destroying the earth'. (Re 11:18)
Man must follow God's guidance in order to succeed in all things. As a
prophet put it at Jer 10:23,
"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man
to direct his steps." (NIV)
Also, certain ones of mankind have also proven Satan to be a liar,
since they have faithfully served God despite the adverse conditions
they were under.
Since the challenge to God's sovereignty is reaching its climax, soon
all the pain and suffering will cease. Never again will such things be
permitted to happen. God promises this at Re 21:3,4,
"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of
God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people,
and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe
every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or
crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."" (NIV)
Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious affiliation?
See above.
I hope the above Scriptures have helped you to get answers to your
questions.
Sincerely, James
**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads
***********************************
Want a Free home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
07 Sep 2007 08:14:37 PM |
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On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:13:49 -0400, James <bireda@peoplepc.com> wrote:
santana@watch.me.hide.net
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and
punish mankind indiscriminately.
There is no indication in the Bible that God today is causing those
maladies you mention above.
You mean, other than the claim that all things - ALL things - are the
will of God?
True, God permits (doesn't cause) such maladies. So why does God
permit suffering etc? Since He has the power, why don't He stop it? He
will stop it soon.
That's not an answer. Why didn't he stop it before it started? He
KNEW, before he created the universe, that it would happen.
But for the present He permits it for some universally important reasons
Such as?
One reason is because of an extremely important issue raised back in
Eden. God originally created man and put him in a beautiful
garden-like place that had all kinds of delicious foods. (Ge 2:15,16)
God also created man to live forever on the earth, IF he continually
obeyed. (Ge 2:17) Disobedience was the only condition that would bring
death and end his eternal existence on this earth.
Since Adam didn't know what "bad" meant (if he had, the whole "eat of
the fruit of the tree of good and evil" thing would be meaningless -
you can't learn what you already know), he couldn't sin. Doing
something you can't possibly know is wrong isn't sinning.
When God created the earth and man, all His other living intelligent
beings, the angels, saw what He did. They observed the situation that
occurred in Eden. A rebellious angel, Satan (cowardly hiding behind a
serpent)
The Bible claims it WAS a serpent, not Satan hiding behind one.
talked to Eve and told her that God had lied and that doing
things her way could prove beneficial to her; that Eve would do better
if she decided for herself what was right and wrong. (Ge 3:3,4)
Nothing in Ge 3:3,4 about anything being beneficial, anything being
better or deciding. Don't you even know your Bible?
Genesis 3:3, 4 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of
the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye
touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall
not surely die
Eve took the bate, fell for it and disobeyed, and Adam later joined
her. Right then and there they rejected God and His perfect guidance,
and instead went with their own.
You REALLY don't know the Bible. Are you telling us what someone else
TOLD you it says? You're sure not telling us what it DOES say.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
30 Jul 2007 02:56:37 AM |
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On Jul 30, 5:36 pm, wrote:
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions?
Perhaps he made the universe - then forgot where he put it -
everything that happens in this universe isn't his fault - he just
stopped paying attention.
Or he doesn't exist.
To say that all the evil that happens is part of some "plan" is too
horrible to contemplate - much better that existence is 100%
indifferent towards us - then it is up to us to actually care.
Mark.
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| User: "James" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
07 Sep 2007 01:12:26 PM |
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Richo <m.richardson61@gmail.com>
Re: questions
On Jul 30, 5:36 pm, wrote:
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions?
Perhaps he made the universe - then forgot where he put it -
everything that happens in this universe isn't his fault - he just
stopped paying attention.
Or he doesn't exist.
To say that all the evil that happens is part of some "plan" is too
horrible to contemplate - much better that existence is 100%
indifferent towards us - then it is up to us to actually care.
Mark.
Mark,
The Bible says God does exists and is all-powerful and loving etc. Yet
today all kinds of bad things happen; even to righteous people.
Obviously God must have some good reasons to let things go to the
extent they are today. But what are those reasons? Here was my reply
to the poster:
"There is no indication in the Bible that God today is causing those
maladies you mention above. It is true that in the past God used such
things to judge certain wicked peoples. But today we are under a
different arrangement (Jer 31:31-33) and God's judgements against
humans are being withheld for a particular "day". Ac 17:31,
"For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the
man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising
him from the dead." (NIV)
Thus all those things you mentioned above are not from God, but are
from the natural random forces at work. Yes, the Bible tells us that
not every happening is from God, but rather random chance effects us
all. Ec 9:11,
"I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the
swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or
wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance
happen to them all." (NIV)
.....True, God permits (doesn't cause) such maladies. So why does God
permit suffering etc? Since He has the power, why don't He stop it? He
will stop it soon. But for the present He permits it for some
universally important reasons that will effect everyone eternally.
One reason is because of an extremely important issue raised back in
Eden. God originally created man and put him in a beautiful
garden-like place that had all kinds of delicious foods. (Ge 2:15,16)
God also created man to live forever on the earth, IF he continually
obeyed. (Ge 2:17) Disobedience was the only condition that would bring
death and end his eternal existence on this earth.
When God created the earth and man, all His other living intelligent
beings, the angels, saw what He did. They observed the situation that
occurred in Eden. A rebellious angel, Satan (cowardly hiding behind a
serpent), talked to Eve and told her that God had lied and that doing
things her way could prove beneficial to her; that Eve would do better
if she decided for herself what was right and wrong. (Ge 3:3,4)
Eve took the bate, fell for it and disobeyed, and Adam later joined
her. Right then and there they rejected God and His perfect guidance,
and instead went with their own.
If God would have destroyed the rebels right then, all the other
intelligent beings that God created would never know if Satan was
right. (also none of us would be here today since we are all direct
descendants of Adam and Eve) Thus throughout all eternity there would
be doubts if God's ways are really the best ways. And intelligent
creatures at times, no doubt would forever challenge God's ways. So
much for endless peace and harmony.
God, in His wisdom and in His mercy, permitted the challenge to His
sovereignty to continue, to prove that only His ways are correct. So,
God had to settle the issue. But such an issue would take time so
Satan could not claim that God didn't let enough time elapse to prove
Satan's case. Also if God stepped in before every 'natural disaster'
(see Job below) or evil human action, Satan could claim that God is
intervening and not allowing humans to take care of such things. So at
the present God is letting humans 'run the show'. That means that the
whole world is basically ran by Satan. Joh 12:31,
"Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world
be cast out;" (RSV)
The first human couple listened to that liar, and disobeyed God. As
God said would happen, it brought on death. But in order for a perfect
body to die without any outside help, it has to become imperfect. And
since Adam and Eve were mercifully permitted to have offspring, (as
said before, if He destroyed them right in the beginning, none of us
would be here today) we also inherited that imperfection.
Later, Satan again challenged God saying that humans would not serve
God if faced with adversity of any kind. (see Job 1:9-12; 2:4,5)
Satan has been proven to be the liar that he is. Mankind has
demonstrated over the centuries that he cannot govern himself with
complete success. Mankind is even 'destroying the earth'. (Re 11:18)
Man must follow God's guidance in order to succeed in all things. As a
prophet put it at Jer 10:23,
"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man
to direct his steps." (NIV)
Also, certain ones of mankind have also proven Satan to be a liar,
since they have faithfully served God despite the adverse conditions
they were under.
Since the challenge to God's sovereignty is reaching its climax, soon
all the pain and suffering will cease. Never again will such things be
permitted to happen. God promises this at Re 21:3,4,
"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of
God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people,
and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe
every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or
crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."" (NIV)
.....I hope the above Scriptures have helped you to get answers to your
questions.
Sincerely, James
**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads
***********************************
Want a Free home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************"
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
07 Sep 2007 08:19:26 PM |
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On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:12:26 -0400, James <bireda@peoplepc.com> wrote:
The Bible says
Who cares what your Bible says? What does the objective evidence say?
Oh - there's no objective evidence that any god - yours or any other -
has ever objectively existed.
BTW, you're posting this crap to alt.atheism, alt.agnosticism,
alt.bible and alt.religion.christian. Gratuitous Bible-quoting is not
permitted in alt.atheism.
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| User: "Sanitys Little Helper" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
30 Jul 2007 03:31:40 AM |
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Richo <m.richardson61@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1185782197.610167.53600@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com to alt.atheism:
On Jul 30, 5:36 pm, wrote:
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions,
Floods, Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating
diseases and serious body malfunctions?
Perhaps he made the universe - then forgot where he put it -
everything that happens in this universe isn't his fault - he just
stopped paying attention.
God has ADHD? That would explain a lot.
Or he doesn't exist.
To say that all the evil that happens is part of some "plan" is too
horrible to contemplate - much better that existence is 100%
indifferent towards us - then it is up to us to actually care.
Mark.
Yes, the "Judeo-Christian" view of the world, which can only account for
evil things in terms of them being part of God's purpose, whether or not
they are directly his deeds, is utterly pernicious, and the sooner it is
eradicated, the better.
--
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N.
aa #2208
"If you are informed by God, you can be misinformed by nobody" - Osama
Bin Laden
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| User: "Opus-" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
31 Jul 2007 08:37:19 PM |
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On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:36:13 +0000 (UTC),
spake thusly:
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and
punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young
and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions
of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children"
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious affiliation?
This brings up another thing for me. Why is it that when ever there is
some kind of disaster, the survivors sometimes thank gawd for
"sparing" them? Gawd created the tornado that kills dozens and the
survivors THANK gawd?
Today, here in Edmonton, Canada, we are commemorating the 20'th
anniversary of "Black Friday", one of the worst natural disasters in
Canadian history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton_tornado
I am sure if you look you will find some archive footage somewhere of
somebody thanking gawd for saving them. I guess the dead weren't worth
saving.
--
jbuchy@hotmail.com
(Jim, daddy to Lesleigh [Autistic] 04/20/94)
"With God, all atrocities are acceptable and embraced"
Please note: All unsolicited e-mail sent to me may, at
my discretion, be posted in this newsgroup verbatim.
.
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| User: "Skeptical KD" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
01 Aug 2007 07:50:30 AM |
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On Jul 31, 8:37 pm, Opus- <jbu...@shaw.ca> wrote:
This brings up another thing for me. Why is it that when ever there is
some kind of disaster, the survivors sometimes thank gawd for
"sparing" them? Gawd created the tornado that kills dozens and the
survivors THANK gawd?
It's the same narrow-minded and egocentric thinking that makes people
believe in ESP and other "paranormal" phenomena: remembering the hits
and forgetting the misses. It continues to blow my mind and further
illustrates how prone to this type of thinking humans are when I will
explain why these wrong ideas happen and why humans are all prone to
them to a friend / acquaintance who believes in some such bs: He will
invariably say, "Well, yes, I understand what you are saying, but I
just *know* that this is true." By "just known" he means that the
emotion or other personal experience convinced him, denying that he
was vulnerable to the same weaknesses to which other humans are
vulnerable in those experiences, all of which lead to wrong ideas.
I specifically remember one such conversation with a friend who is
convinced he has pre-cognition. As I recall, he proved his "power" by
relating having received a package in the mail and "just knowing" what
was inside. Now, unless this was a totally unexpected package which
contained something he would not expect ever to receive and he really
did happen to "preconceive" precisely what was inside, and unless he
records and judges every single time in his life when he thinks he
"just knows" and whether or not he was right, well, you see where I'm
going with this.
Humans like to think that their perceptions mirror reality. Most
people don't realize how prevalent wrong perceptions are, particularly
their own.
Skeptical KD
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| User: "Ylog" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
01 Aug 2007 11:25:10 PM |
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"Skeptical KD" <newsgroups4kd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185972630.939244.76770@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 31, 8:37 pm, Opus- <jbu...@shaw.ca> wrote:
This brings up another thing for me. Why is it that when ever there is
some kind of disaster, the survivors sometimes thank gawd for
"sparing" them? Gawd created the tornado that kills dozens and the
survivors THANK gawd?
Dude...what are you talking about. the people who dont survive cant thank
god....lol
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| User: "Chris H. Fleming" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
01 Aug 2007 08:21:11 AM |
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On Aug 1, 8:50 am, Skeptical KD <newsgroups...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 31, 8:37 pm, Opus- <jbu...@shaw.ca> wrote:
This brings up another thing for me. Why is it that when ever there is
some kind of disaster, the survivors sometimes thank gawd for
"sparing" them? Gawd created the tornado that kills dozens and the
survivors THANK gawd?
It's the same narrow-minded and egocentric thinking that makes people
believe in ESP and other "paranormal" phenomena: remembering the hits
and forgetting the misses. It continues to blow my mind and further
illustrates how prone to this type of thinking humans are when I will
explain why these wrong ideas happen and why humans are all prone to
them to a friend / acquaintance who believes in some such bs: He will
invariably say, "Well, yes, I understand what you are saying, but I
just *know* that this is true." By "just known" he means that the
emotion or other personal experience convinced him, denying that he
was vulnerable to the same weaknesses to which other humans are
vulnerable in those experiences, all of which lead to wrong ideas.
I specifically remember one such conversation with a friend who is
convinced he has pre-cognition. As I recall, he proved his "power" by
relating having received a package in the mail and "just knowing" what
was inside. Now, unless this was a totally unexpected package which
contained something he would not expect ever to receive and he really
did happen to "preconceive" precisely what was inside, and unless he
records and judges every single time in his life when he thinks he
"just knows" and whether or not he was right, well, you see where I'm
going with this.
Humans like to think that their perceptions mirror reality. Most
people don't realize how prevalent wrong perceptions are, particularly
their own.
Skeptical KD
Confirmation bias with a little bit of battered wife syndrome.
And I am serious about the battered wife syndrome.
Most excuses for an all loving god creating hell boil down to "he
beats me because he loves me".
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| User: "Johnny P" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
30 Jul 2007 02:43:25 AM |
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maybe he doesnt like us
Johnny P
<santana@watch.me.hide.net> wrote in message
news:41f76d3d524115e31de215a93e9f3cd3@remailer.metacolo.com...
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and
punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young
and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish
millions
of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent
children"
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious
affiliation?
.
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| User: "James" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
07 Sep 2007 12:24:30 PM |
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"Johnny P" <vassago9367@peoplepc.com>
Re: questions
maybe he doesnt like us
Johnny P
Hello,
Well, do you say the same thing to parents who let their children
undergo a painful operation: 'They don't like their children'? It is a
similar thing with God. Here is my reply to the poster, which explains
why God does not cause such things, but does temporarily permit such
things:
"There is no indication in the Bible that God today is causing those
maladies you mention above. It is true that in the past God used such
things to judge certain wicked peoples. But today we are under a
different arrangement (Jer 31:31-33) and God's judgements against
humans are being withheld for a particular "day". Ac 17:31,
"For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the
man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising
him from the dead." (NIV)
Thus all those things you mentioned above are not from God, but are
from the natural random forces at work. Yes, the Bible tells us that
not every happening is from God, but rather random chance effects us
all. Ec 9:11,
"I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the
swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or
wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance
happen to them all." (NIV)
.....True, God permits (doesn't cause) such maladies. So why does God
permit suffering etc? Since He has the power, why don't He stop it? He
will stop it soon. But for the present He permits it for some
universally important reasons that will effect everyone eternally.
One reason is because of an extremely important issue raised back in
Eden. God originally created man and put him in a beautiful
garden-like place that had all kinds of delicious foods. (Ge 2:15,16)
God also created man to live forever on the earth, IF he continually
obeyed. (Ge 2:17) Disobedience was the only condition that would bring
death and end his eternal existence on this earth.
When God created the earth and man, all His other living intelligent
beings, the angels, saw what He did. They observed the situation that
occurred in Eden. A rebellious angel, Satan (cowardly hiding behind a
serpent), talked to Eve and told her that God had lied and that doing
things her way could prove beneficial to her; that Eve would do better
if she decided for herself what was right and wrong. (Ge 3:3,4)
Eve took the bate, fell for it and disobeyed, and Adam later joined
her. Right then and there they rejected God and His perfect guidance,
and instead went with their own.
If God would have destroyed the rebels right then, all the other
intelligent beings that God created would never know if Satan was
right. (also none of us would be here today since we are all direct
descendants of Adam and Eve) Thus throughout all eternity there would
be doubts if God's ways are really the best ways. And intelligent
creatures at times, no doubt would forever challenge God's ways. So
much for endless peace and harmony.
God, in His wisdom and in His mercy, permitted the challenge to His
sovereignty to continue, to prove that only His ways are correct. So,
God had to settle the issue. But such an issue would take time so
Satan could not claim that God didn't let enough time elapse to prove
Satan's case. Also if God stepped in before every 'natural disaster'
(see Job below) or evil human action, Satan could claim that God is
intervening and not allowing humans to take care of such things. So at
the present God is letting humans 'run the show'. That means that the
whole world is basically ran by Satan. Joh 12:31,
"Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world
be cast out;" (RSV)
The first human couple listened to that liar, and disobeyed God. As
God said would happen, it brought on death. But in order for a perfect
body to die without any outside help, it has to become imperfect. And
since Adam and Eve were mercifully permitted to have offspring, (as
said before, if He destroyed them right in the beginning, none of us
would be here today) we also inherited that imperfection.
Later, Satan again challenged God saying that humans would not serve
God if faced with adversity of any kind. (see Job 1:9-12; 2:4,5)
Satan has been proven to be the liar that he is. Mankind has
demonstrated over the centuries that he cannot govern himself with
complete success. Mankind is even 'destroying the earth'. (Re 11:18)
Man must follow God's guidance in order to succeed in all things. As a
prophet put it at Jer 10:23,
"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man
to direct his steps." (NIV)
Also, certain ones of mankind have also proven Satan to be a liar,
since they have faithfully served God despite the adverse conditions
they were under.
Since the challenge to God's sovereignty is reaching its climax, soon
all the pain and suffering will cease. Never again will such things be
permitted to happen. God promises this at Re 21:3,4,
"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of
God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people,
and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe
every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or
crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."" (NIV)
.....I hope the above Scriptures have helped you to get answers to your
questions.
Sincerely, James
**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads
***********************************
Want a Free home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************"
<santana@watch.me.hide.net> wrote in message
news:41f76d3d524115e31de215a93e9f3cd3@remailer.metacolo.com...
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and
punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young
and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish
millions
of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent
children"
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious
affiliation?
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
07 Sep 2007 08:17:11 PM |
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On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:24:30 -0400, James <bireda@peoplepc.com> wrote:
"Johnny P" <vassago9367@peoplepc.com>
Re: questions
maybe he doesnt like us
Johnny P
Hello,
Well, do you say the same thing to parents who let their children
undergo a painful operation
Did the parents create the child, including the child's need for the
operation? Did the parents know, before they created the child, that
the child they were going to create in the future would need the
operation? Did the parents have the choice of creating a child that
wouldn't need the operation? Are the parents all-knowing and
all-powerful?
The answer to all those questions is the same - no. Ask those same
questions about God and the answers are all the same - yes.
You attempt at analogy is bankrupt.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: questions |
07 Sep 2007 12:51:06 PM |
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On Sep 7, 1:24 pm, James <bir...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
"Johnny P" <vassago9...@peoplepc.com>
Re: questions
maybe he doesnt like us
Johnny P
Hello,
Well, do you say the same thing to parents who let their children
undergo a painful operation:
You miss the point. Often, a painful operation is required for a
child's survival. The pain suffered in natural disasters is
meaningless. You seem to suggest that the purpose of suffering is to
bring one "closer to god". Ignoring for the moment that there is
absolutely no evidence gods exist, let's examine that concept.
This "god" is no ordinary parent. He has at his disposal the power to
make everything right for his "children", yet refuses to do so. I know
that if *I* had that kind of power, my daughter would be safe from the
various slings & arrows of life. No, this "heavenly father" is a
neurotic, insecure mess. Even though he possesses great power, he
insists upon torturing his own creation so that he may see their
"love". This is not the behavior of a supreme being. This is the
behavior of an abusive spouse.
There is a reason the Argument from Evil is so powerful and long-
lived. Any answer theists give to is presupposes the existence of a
creature so immoral that humanity would be well advised to hunt it
down and kill it.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads
Coward.
If you wish to have a discussion with me, please follow the thread
since my login adress is not a real e-mail account.
.
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