| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Drew" |
| Date: |
07 Oct 2003 04:22:14 PM |
| Object: |
Questions about Marxism |
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Thank you for your time.
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| User: "xyz" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 08:55:39 PM |
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"Drew" <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:ctb6ovo54e3u52q5jj45n4qt37gqd8nutl@4ax.com...
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Thank you for your time.
Well your poster seems polite enough. In my opinion, the best way to
approach the study of any subject is with an open mind. Only in that way
can we appreciate the point being made, as well as its true flaws. Marxism
has very little to do with "atheism", although Marx catalogued all religions
as the opium of the people. Contrary to many opinions, Marxism has has
nothing to do with Christianity either. The phrase attributed to Christ "It
is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich
man to enter the kingdom of heaven" may sound Marxist, but there is the
fundamental difference implied by freedom of decision, as opposed to the
overwhelming power of community and historical destiny that Marxism entails.
In a nutshell, history has bestowed the title of "Dialectic Materialism" to
Marx's theories. The philosophy of Marx borrows from Friedrich Hegel's
"Phenomenology of History". In there, Hegel stated that history has a
"purpose", and that, above the individual spirit, there is a community
spirit, or "zeitgeist". "Hegelian logic" explains the upheavals of history
in terms of "the zeitgeist in search of its own freedom", or a constant
controversy between "thesis and anti-thesis" to form a "synthesis". Hegel
concluded that the optimal community had already been reached, not
surprisingly, in the Germany of his own time (late 1700 early 1800). There
is a lot of spirituality in Hegel's ideas, yet books have been written to
prove he was atheist.
Karl Marx lived in the late 1800's. He said that he agreed with Hegelian
logic, but that the "anti-thesis - thesis" confrontation of history was due
to changes in the means of production. This was of course the middle of the
industrial revolution, when machines were beginning to replace slavery, and
where a new class of industrial workers was being formed in Europe, to whom
he called "proletarians", or the exploited class embedded in something he
called the "superstructure of society", the class that was robbed off the
fruit of its labor
Eventually, in accordance to Marx (and Engels, his benefactor), humankind
will reach what he called "full communism", a kind of future paradise where
the levels of production will be large enough to support everyone, and where
work will be performed in a voluntary basis. He deducted this by watching
the industrial revolution, let's not be fooled by that. The man was, in a
sense, as much a victim of that boom as many people today were victims of
the information age expectations.
It is important to notice that Marx never really said that societies must
push for a revolutionary struggle, he simply said that revolution would
arrive "on its own accord", as the Hegelian logic of dialectic materialism
explained. His most quoted phrase is "to each according to his needs, from
each according to his abilities", even though he only said it once, and
wasn't even the original author of the phrase. His ideas carry a tone of
idealism that has, as you well know, played havoc amongst the young
population of the planet ever since they came into existence, it is the
Bolcheviques in Russia who decided to rush the so called "natural
revolution", through Vladimir Lenin and, later, Stalin. His most
fundamental book is "Das Kapital", where he explains his economic theories.
(Oddly enough, Karl Marx actually admired the concept of the US corporation.
Not many people know this. He thought a government could operate the same
way.)
There are some fundamental flaws in his theories. Among them, the idea that
the only difference between people is that of "economic differences".
People get together because of a multitude of factors. It isn't clear to me
that only economic differences matter. The quest for status, for instance,
was never eliminated in the soviet union, mankind will always look for his
individual benefit, and not even the most oppressive regime can eliminate
that human feature. He ignored the professional workers of today, I suppose
they would be considered bourgeoisie trash in his time. Achieving full
communism has definitely been tried without success.
It remains to be said, however, that many of the things that Marx said were
true. I believe that the answer lies in an all-American balance: give a
little, take a little, leave room for individual freedom, but pay your
taxes, and of course....watch the government.
Regards.
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 09:53:07 PM |
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From: "xyz"
Marxism
has very little to do with "atheism", although Marx catalogued all religions
as the opium of the people. Contrary to many opinions, Marxism has has
nothing to do with Christianity either.
Since this might have been directed at me, let me try to explain my position.
I never claimed that Marxism had anything to do with Christianity. What I DO
claim is that the mindset behind both ideologies are virtually identical. Both
support totalitarian government with the individuals having little or no
rights. Both support the concept of communal property and attack the concept of
personal property. It has been said that the Sermon on the Mount is the
earliest written statement of Communist economic doctrine and there is a lot of
justification for that statement. Both require the harshest punishments for
doctrinal dissent. Both merge the concept of civil government and religious
belief.
While on the surface Christianity and Communism appear quite dissimilar and
unrelated to each other, their core values, although arrived at from different
directions, are virtually identical. The individual is worthless. The State is
supreme. Any other differences are mere window dressing.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Ill-Legal Dept. "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
"My country, right or wrong; to be defended when right and righted when wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "xyz" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
08 Oct 2003 10:51:29 PM |
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"Lord Calvert" <forlornh@aol.commode> wrote in message
news:20031007225307.16798.00000409@mb-m07.aol.com...
From: "xyz"
Marxism
has very little to do with "atheism", although Marx catalogued all
religions
as the opium of the people. Contrary to many opinions, Marxism has has
nothing to do with Christianity either.
Since this might have been directed at me, let me try to explain my
position.
I did review your previous post, after reading this one, and I can
understand why you thought I was addressing you. I wasn't.
I never claimed that Marxism had anything to do with Christianity. What I
DO
claim is that the mindset behind both ideologies are virtually identical.
Both
support totalitarian government with the individuals having little or no
rights. Both support the concept of communal property and attack the
concept of
personal property. It has been said that the Sermon on the Mount is the
earliest written statement of Communist economic doctrine and there is a
lot of
justification for that statement. Both require the harshest punishments
for
doctrinal dissent. Both merge the concept of civil government and
religious
belief.
While on the surface Christianity and Communism appear quite dissimilar
and
unrelated to each other, their core values, although arrived at from
different
directions, are virtually identical. The individual is worthless. The
State is
supreme. Any other differences are mere window dressing.
This is your own interpretation. Christianity does not propose "punishments
for doctrinal dissent", punishment is simply left for "judgment day". It
certainly separates the state from religious affairs, as in 'give to Cesar
what belongs to Cesar'.
The individual cannot be worthless, since christianity leaves all decisions
to the individual. Frankly, most of the Christian fundamentalists of today
are right wingers, are we to believe that those right wingers are in fact a
bunch of communists? I we are going to debunk religion, let's do it fair
and square.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Ill-Legal Dept. "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
"My country, right or wrong; to be defended when right and righted when
wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
09 Oct 2003 12:26:31 AM |
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This is your own interpretation. Christianity does not propose "punishments
for doctrinal dissent", punishment is simply left for "judgment day".
Yes. That's worse than Communism. Christianity mandates infinite punishment for
finite "sins." It uses that fear to compel adherence, just like the KGB used
fear and terror to maintain Communist orthodoxy in the Soviet Union. The
Communists were content just to starve and kill you. Christians try take their
punishments beyond the grave.
It
certainly separates the state from religious affairs, as in 'give to Cesar
what belongs to Cesar'.
And later justifies rulers as ordanied by God. Where do you think the "Divine
Right of Kings" got started? Why was religious sanction so important for
post-Constantine rulers? In Christian theology, a king is God's reprentative on
earth and to violate the King's edict is the same as violating God's. You
cannot "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's,"
because EVERYTHING belongs to God. This is identical to doctrinaire Communism
where everything belongs to the State.
The individual cannot be worthless, since christianity leaves all decisions
to the individual.
With an omniscent and omnipotent God, no decision is left to the individual.
God controls all our actions down to the pettiest detail. If he did not then he
would not be omnipotent nor omniscent.
Frankly, most of the Christian fundamentalists of today
are right wingers, are we to believe that those right wingers are in fact a
bunch of communists?
The ideology is the same. Greater power to the state. Limited power to the
individuals. Taxation in order to support state-sponsored religion. Elimination
of dissent. Deification of the Supreme Leader. A Department of Homeland
Security identical to East Germany's Stasi. Yes...the modern extremist
right-wing does indeed resemble Soviet-style Communists in terms of their
belief in rigid governmental control over the populace. It is why old-style
libertarian Conservatives, like Barry Goldwater, were thrown out of the GOP.
You seem to forget that Conservatism isn't what it used to be 40 years ago. The
Civil Rights Act of 1964 changed all that. When that was passed the GOP
embraced the Southern Democrats and eventually they took over the party. It is
the Dixiecrats who changed what conservatism meant...from the small-government
libertarianism of Goldwater to the big-government, anti-Constitutional,
Christian-supremacist totalitarianism of Gingrich, Robertson and Bush.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Ill-Legal Dept. "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
"My country, right or wrong; to be defended when right and righted when wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "xyz" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
09 Oct 2003 12:05:29 PM |
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About all I can say is that you definitely don't like Christianity, really,
it come through loud and clear ! (your right anyway)
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| User: "Crazyalec" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
08 Oct 2003 01:48:44 AM |
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"Drew" <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:ctb6ovo54e3u52q5jj45n4qt37gqd8nutl@4ax.com...
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
There is no such thing as "communism" as we know it. Just a nice name for a
con game in a form of the totalitarian regime.No different than religion.
Exploitation of an idea for money and power control. There never was and
never will be utopian idea of communism
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 04:36:34 PM |
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Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
Since you have been raised in America and are an atheist you might be
interested in learning that Marxism and Stalinism have much more in common with
fundamentalist Christianity than with freethought and atheism. Most atheists
have a tremendous respect for the rights of the individual over the powers of
the State. This philosophy is fundamentally contradictory to both Marxism and
Christianity, which both support totalitarian government. The concept of
freedom of religion, which is so ingrained in most atheists in the US, is
completely absent in both Communists and most Christians, which support
government-mandated unification of belief.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Ill-Legal Dept. "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
"My country, right or wrong; to be defended when right and righted when wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
09 Oct 2003 03:40:09 PM |
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Lord Calvert <forlornh@aol.commode> wrote:
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
Since you have been raised in America and are an atheist you might
be interested in learning that Marxism and Stalinism have much more
in common with fundamentalist Christianity than with freethought and
atheism.
This is going to be tough...
Most atheists have a tremendous respect for the rights of the
individual over the powers of the State.
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in God. They may or may not
be statists, fascists, communists or whatever. There are lots of
atheists in China and North Korea.
This philosophy is fundamentally contradictory to both Marxism and
Christianity, which both support totalitarian government. The
concept of freedom of religion, which is so ingrained in most
atheists in the US, is completely absent in both Communists and most
Christians, which support government-mandated unification of belief.
That may well be true of athiests in the US, but they are a pretty
small minority of atheists in general.
Andrew.
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| User: "SReeseMe" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 06:51:45 PM |
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Subject: Questions about Marxism
From: Drew
Date: 10/07/2003 5:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <ctb6ovo54e3u52q5jj45n4qt37gqd8nutl@4ax.com>
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Thank you for your time.
There is a long standing myth in fundementalist christian circles that most or
all atheists are marxists and that marxism and atheism are somehow linked and
interchangable.
Like most Christian myths this is incorrect.
1 Atheism is not linked to any particular political or economic view, as it
happens I am an atheist and a libertarian.
2 Read the writings of Ayn Rand, she was an atheist and her philosophy of
Objectivism holds to both atheism and laissez-faire capitalism.
3 In my opinion Marxism IS a fundementialist religion in and of itself. It is
based on belief rather than evidence. It simply replaces the invisible sky God
with Big Brother and Jesus, Mohammed, etc with Marx. Marxism has been a
disaster everywhere its been tried but that evidence doesn't change the belief
of its followers, like scientific creationists they are immune to evidence.
4 Yes communism is an evil little meme and like its ***** half brother
fascism it has resulted in tens of millions of deaths. And like other forms of
fundmentalism, Christian, Islamic, etc stiffles thought, freedom and progress.
- Stephen
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| User: "Adam Marczyk" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 05:25:39 PM |
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Drew <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:ctb6ovo54e3u52q5jj45n4qt37gqd8nutl@4ax.com...
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Thank you for your time.
I don't know if communism is inherently evil or not, but I think it must
mean something that every country where it was ever tried became a
repressive dictatorship.
--
"We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
--Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Drew" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 05:31:37 PM |
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"Adam Marczyk" <see@sig.com> wrote:
Drew <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:ctb6ovo54e3u52q5jj45n4qt37gqd8nutl@4ax.com...
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Thank you for your time.
I don't know if communism is inherently evil or not, but I think it must
mean something that every country where it was ever tried became a
repressive dictatorship.
That is true, and I have noticed that. But I recall one person once
remarking that previous nations had not really adopted the theory to
it's full.
I myself could never imagine adopting any other economic system them
capitalism; I am just curious about the systems of government and
economy in the world.
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| User: "Melchizedek" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
08 Oct 2003 08:03:24 AM |
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I don't know if communism is inherently evil or not, but I think it must
mean something that every country where it was ever tried became a
repressive dictatorship.
Watch the videos here on Communism, Socialism, and Atheism.
--- Understanding the Times ---
http://bibleweb.info/understanding-the-times.html
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| User: "Melchizedek" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
08 Oct 2003 08:06:47 AM |
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Sorry, fixed typo.
Watch the videos here on Communism, Socialism, and Atheism.
--- Understanding the Times ---
http://bibleweb.info/ftp/understanding-the-times.html
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 06:04:41 PM |
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Le Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:25:39 +0000, Adam Marczyk a écrit :
I don't know if communism is inherently evil or not, but I think it must
mean something that every country where it was ever tried became a
repressive dictatorship.
Not Chile! Thanks to Mr. Kissinger ... :(
Note that all communist countries were poor to begin with. Might have
something to do with it, too.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
08 Oct 2003 04:18:00 AM |
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On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:25:39 GMT, "Adam Marczyk" <see@sig.com> wrote:
Drew <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:ctb6ovo54e3u52q5jj45n4qt37gqd8nutl@4ax.com...
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Thank you for your time.
I don't know if communism is inherently evil or not, but I think it must
mean something that every country where it was ever tried became a
repressive dictatorship.
Such as Chile?
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| User: "Eric Pepke" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 08:42:51 PM |
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Drew <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:<ctb6ovo54e3u52q5jj45n4qt37gqd8nutl@4ax.com>...
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
This is really simple. Go read some Marx.
If you don;'t fall asleep, become a Marxist. If you do, then...
Eventually, you'll wake up Then go read some more Marx.
Eventually, you'll wake up.
Repeat until you've figured it out.
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| User: "John Hattan" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 06:02:58 PM |
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Drew <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote:
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Why depend on others' interpretation? Why not go to the source and read
something by Marx?
---
John Hattan Grand High UberPope - First Church of Shatnerology
john@thecodezone.com http://www.shatnerology.com
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
08 Oct 2003 08:30:44 PM |
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On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 18:02:58 -0500, John Hattan
<john@thecodezone.com> wrote:
Drew <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote:
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Why depend on others' interpretation? Why not go to the source and read
something by Marx?
Marx wrote several short polemical booklets, which are vert easy
to read. You could start with 'The Communist Manifesto'. I still
find that an incredible piece of writing, even though I stopped
being a Marxist many years ago. There is also 'Value, Price and
Profit' which summarises his economics.
'State and Revolution' by V. I. Lennin summarises what Marx
taught about the state, emphasising that socialism would require
total democracy and would eventually lead to the withering away
of the state.
He never finished the book because the Russian Revolution broke
out as he was writing it - and when he took power he followed a
completely differant course.
-
Martin Thomas
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 04:37:38 PM |
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Drew wrote:
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Thank you for your time.
/me sniffs the air
Does anyone else smell red herring?
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
Is your faith so weak and your god so powerless
that, without government endorsement of your
religion, all hell will break loose?
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 05:11:03 PM |
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/me sniffs the air
Does anyone else smell red herring?
Oh I certainly did but for the moment I am more than happy to give him the
benefit of the doubt. It will be interesting to see if he responds to my post.
"Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we
drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the Gentiles seek all these things; and
your heavenly Father knows that you need them all." - Jesus
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." - Karl
Marx
They sound like they could have both come from the same man.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Ill-Legal Dept. "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
"My country, right or wrong; to be defended when right and righted when wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 05:35:36 PM |
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Lord Calvert wrote:
/me sniffs the air
Does anyone else smell red herring?
Oh I certainly did but for the moment I am more than happy to give him the
benefit of the doubt. It will be interesting to see if he responds to my post.
"Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we
drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the Gentiles seek all these things; and
your heavenly Father knows that you need them all." - Jesus
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." - Karl
Marx
They sound like they could have both come from the same man.
If that is the direction you want, try these on for size (and please, as a
courtesy, do not cut the names of the people you are responding to. It is rude, and
makes it very difficult to follow threads.)
"And all who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold
their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need. (Acts
2:44-45)
"Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said
that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in
common. ... There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors
of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it
at the apostles' feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need.(Acts
4:32, 34-35)"
And let us not forget the story of God striking dead the people who sought personal
gain...
But a man named Anani'as with his wife Sapphi'ra sold a piece of property, and with
his wife's knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and
laid it at the apostles' feet.
But Peter said, "Anani'as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy
Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold,
did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How
is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but
to God."
When Anani'as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon
all who heard of it. The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and
buried him.
After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had
happened.
And Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much."
And she said, "Yes, for so much."
But Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit
of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door,
and they will carry you out."
Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they
found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.
(Acts 5:1-11)
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
Is your faith so weak and your god so powerless
that, without government endorsement of your
religion, all hell will break loose?
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
08 Oct 2003 08:35:14 PM |
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On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:35:36 -0700, Gregory Gadow
<techbear@serv.net> wrote:
Lord Calvert wrote:
/me sniffs the air
Does anyone else smell red herring?
Oh I certainly did but for the moment I am more than happy to give him the
benefit of the doubt. It will be interesting to see if he responds to my post.
"Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we
drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the Gentiles seek all these things; and
your heavenly Father knows that you need them all." - Jesus
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." - Karl
Marx
They sound like they could have both come from the same man.
If that is the direction you want, try these on for size (and please, as a
courtesy, do not cut the names of the people you are responding to. It is rude, and
makes it very difficult to follow threads.)
"And all who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold
their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need. (Acts
2:44-45)
"Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said
that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in
common. ... There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors
of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it
at the apostles' feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need.(Acts
4:32, 34-35)"
And let us not forget the story of God striking dead the people who sought personal
gain...
But a man named Anani'as with his wife Sapphi'ra sold a piece of property, and with
his wife's knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and
laid it at the apostles' feet.
But Peter said, "Anani'as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy
Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold,
did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How
is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but
to God."
When Anani'as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon
all who heard of it. The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and
buried him.
After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had
happened.
And Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much."
And she said, "Yes, for so much."
But Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit
of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door,
and they will carry you out."
Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they
found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.
(Acts 5:1-11)
Frederick Engels, close friend of Karl Marx, wrote an article
pointing out the similarities between the 2 ideas:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/early-christianity/index.htm
The article begins:
: The history of early Christianity has notable points of
: resemblance with the modern working-class movement. Like the
: latter, Christianity was originally a movement of oppressed
: people: it first appeared as the religion of slaves and
: emancipated slaves, of poor people deprived of all rights, of
: peoples subjugated or dispersed by Rome. Both Christianity and
: the workers' socialism preach forthcoming salvation from bondage
: and misery; Christianity places this salvation in a life beyond,
: after death, in heaven; socialism places it in this world, in a
: transformation of society
This certainly resonated with me. I was brought up a Roman
Catholic and taught that when I grew up I should convert as many
protestants as possible. Instead I became a Marxist, a religion
that had much in common!
-
Martin Thomas
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 05:33:37 PM |
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Gregory Gadow wrote:
Drew wrote:
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about
Marxism. Being raised in America I have been tought that communism
is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Thank you for your time.
/me sniffs the air
Does anyone else smell red herring?
I thought that smell was emanating from georgann's crotch.
To answer Drew's question, Marxism is just like any other political
ideology, parts of it are "good" and parts of it are "bad" depending on
one's point of view.
--
Sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel
better about himself. He is a very vengeful God. He's all *****
about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over
it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter
to him, so long as it makes us sad...God gives us life and love and
help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can
drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears that give
God his great power.
aa #2133
apatriot #19
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 06:30:27 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:22:14 GMT, Drew
<drewish@mchsi.com> let us all know that:
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
How to be a Marxist in a few easy steps.
1. Read Hegel's _The Philosophy of Right_--oh hell pretty much
anything by Hegel.
2. Strip it of all supernatural *****, but retain the idiotic
concepts.
3. Deny everything of Hegel while you use it.
4. Complain about the "bourgoise" and "capitalists" who "exploit"
the workers, while using some idiotic Labor Theory of Value, and a
"class" system which you never get around to explaining.
5. Really, just rip on "capitalism" and never bother to truly
explain how your "communism" will work.
That, in a nutshell, is Marx.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
08 Oct 2003 08:30:49 PM |
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On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:30:27 GMT, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:22:14 GMT, Drew
<drewish@mchsi.com> let us all know that:
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
How to be a Marxist in a few easy steps.
1. Read Hegel's _The Philosophy of Right_--oh hell pretty much
anything by Hegel.
The vast majority of Marxists have never bothered to read Hegel.
If you want to study the history of philosophy, then Hegel is
relevant, but the most significant ideas of Marx's were born
after he had lost interest in most of what Hegel taught.
2. Strip it of all supernatural *****, but retain the idiotic
concepts.
3. Deny everything of Hegel while you use it.
4. Complain about the "bourgoise" and "capitalists" who "exploit"
the workers,
Marx did altogether too much of that.
while using some idiotic Labor Theory of Value, and a
"class" system which you never get around to explaining.
Marx's description of 19th century capitalism was very
perceptive. It is certainly possible to understand a great deal
of how a society works by examining the behavior and beliefs of
groups of people who have economic interests in common. This way
of looking at society is less useful today, as the bounds between
different classes are not so rigid. I don't think he understood
psychology very well, but if he hadn't been such an enemy of the
establishment he would have been regarded as one of the greatest
economists. When I was a Marxist it always amused me how text
books of economics often relegated to a footnote the fact that it
was Marx who discovered the trade cycle. In fact his mathematical
model of it was almost identical to that popularized by Keynes
decades later. He predicted that capitalism would eventually get
stuck in the down part of the cycle, which is exactly what
happened in the great depression of the thirties.
Of course what happened next was completely different from what
Marx expected; instead of a communist revolution, there was a
fascist reaction. The only Marxists who have been able to make
any sense of that have had to acknowledge that Marx's ideas were
very limited.
5. Really, just rip on "capitalism" and never bother to truly
explain how your "communism" will work.
You got that one right.
Of course, Marx wrote enough about communism to make it
absolutely clear that he would not have described any of the
'communist' countries as being communist. But the lying rulers of
those countries pretended to be communists - and Western
propagandists found it convenient to go along with that lie.
Does this mean that I think that Marxism would have worked if it
had been applied properly? No. I think their were serious flaws
in Marx's system.
That, in a nutshell, is Marx.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
-
Martin Thomas
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
08 Oct 2003 12:47:23 AM |
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In article <ctb6ovo54e3u52q5jj45n4qt37gqd8nutl@4ax.com>,
Drew <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote:
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Thank you for your time.
I'd suggest that you read "The Communist Manifesto" by Karl Marx and
make up your own mind. You should also know that not all atheists are
Marxists or socialists.
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
Pierre Laplace, when asked by Napoleon on why he made
no mention of a god in his book on astronomy: "Sire,
I have no need of that hypothesis."
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 06:30:46 PM |
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In article <ctb6ovo54e3u52q5jj45n4qt37gqd8nutl@4ax.com>,
drewish@mchsi.com says...
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
I suppose that's possible. Many marxists are atheists, though the
converse is not necessarily the case.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
Very few people would probably favor implementing a communist system.
Probably the model that many westerners on the left end of the spectrum
would favor is more of a pluralist system, perhaps somewhat similar to
"social democrats" in Europe. Scandanavian countries have successfully
experimented with mixed systems such as this for a number of decades.
They still preserve private capitalist enterprise, but they nationalize
some of the "commanding heights" of essential industries and work more
closely with private businesses to do comprehensive planning about
production and economic strategy.
As far as the pluralist model, this primarily means that power is
distributed more widely and evenly across society and this dispersal of
authority provides for greater checks and balances against a government
that might try to persecute its citizens. Interestingly, the system of
checks and balances in the US branches of government is considered a
rudimentary "pluralist system".
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
There are a lot of varieties of socialism. But presuming that you are
in the US, you probably won't see that as a viable option. Despite
claims by the right, socialists have not made many inroads into US
politics over the last 80-100 years.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist
These days, most people would probably not become Marxists, but rather
simply study a few of his ideas. Marx believed that most of the
working class are victims of a "false consciousness" in which they have
been brainwashed by the upper classes to accept positions of lowly
servitude that alienate workers from their own humanity. Among other
things, Marx felt that this false consciousness and oppression by the
upper class caused people to not be able to live up to their true
potentials. He defined freedom as the ability to live up to one's
potential, and by that standard many people are still slaves to
poverty, crime, disease, etc. He said that these basic needs demand to
be met and that we cannot have a just society if the needs of many are
going unmet.
Now most people agree that Marx was incorrect in predicting a rapid
overthrow of capitalism. What has happened instead is that many of the
issues important to Marx have been co-opted and integrated into our
political system, such as collective bargaining for trade unions and
the like. In fact Marx and his followers suggested that capitalists
would probably offer some of these concessions to workers in order to
pacify them, and in that he was right. Marx and Proudhon didn't want
workers to settle for these half measures because he thought that it
would sap their determination to rise up and overthrow their bourgeois
masters. I think that perhaps Marx and his followers were a bit
extreme in imagining that revolution was the only road to reform. Non-
revolutionary or Fabian socialists have probably made more progress by
working within the present governmental system.
, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources,
You probably don't want to read original translated sources. Marx was
a very boring, cumbersome writer. You have to really sift to find
gems. Here's one I like from Marx about religion:
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is
the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their
illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a
condition that requires illusions. " BTW, nothing produces silence in
the room faster than quoting a saying from Karl Marx.
Here is one link that might give you a little more info on Marxian
alienation:
http://acme.highpoint.edu/~rramke/Readings/403/Marx-A.html
As far as books, one that I've found to be pretty good is _Political
Ideologies -- An Introduction_ by Andrew Heywood. You might want to
see if it's available at your local library.
and your opinions.
In the interests of space I'm going to hold off in offering my own
opinion just yet.
Thank you for your time.
Wow. The kid even has decent manners. That's a refreshing change of
pace. Perhaps Daniel could take some notes :)
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
07 Oct 2003 11:34:30 PM |
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On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:22:14 GMT, Drew <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote:
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Thank you for your time.
As Therion has said on one or more occasions, "right system, wrong
species".
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
08 Oct 2003 12:08:57 AM |
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On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:34:30 -0400 in alt.atheism, raven1 (raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:22:14 GMT, Drew <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote:
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
I don't think I really want to become a Marxist, I'd just like some
info on the subject. I'd appreciate explanations of the theory,
sources, and your opinions.
Thank you for your time.
As Therion has said on one or more occasions, "right system, wrong
species".
Did I? Must have been on form that day!
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Questions about Marxism |
08 Oct 2003 12:41:05 AM |
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"raven1" <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:dr47ovcq6kbs5paug9d3a7tvcveoqnrfn6@4ax.com...
On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:22:14 GMT, Drew <drewish@mchsi.com> wrote:
Since joining the atheist community, I have heard a lot about Marxism.
Being raised in America I have been tought that communism is evil.
From some things I have read from socialist post, I am no longer sure
about this.
Marx held that the major enemy of communism was not capitalism but
socialism.
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