On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:52:04 +0100, "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com>
said in alt.atheism:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:1a5eu0pg6p4j1cu2ar6bbsird4h04aftdp@4ax.com...

"A truly unselfish act would be a Christian volunteering to have his

soul's place in hell, so yours could go to Heaven. Don't hold your

Irony of ironies. This is precisely what Christ did!

But, since Christ wasn't Christian (even Christianity acknowledges
that he was Jewish) that's irrelevant.

Of course it's not

Of course it is, since having a Jew do something has nothing to do
with having a Christian do it. Judaism isn't a form of Christianity,
moron - Christianity is ***** Judaism.

As to your other points, I'm sorry, but it's too late in Europe for me to
deal with them now.

Then you shouldn't have posted.

I sure hope you aren't representative
of Eastern European Christianity.

Unfortunately, I fear you are.
Eastern Europe is, after all, the home of hatred of your god's
co-religionists, and how much more stupid could anyone be than that?

"William" <tielige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message

Why does an omnipotent God HAVE to do X in order to achieve Y?

Because He can.

Why does an omnipotent God HAVE to do X in order to achieve Y?

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:adabu0l38l60vbee7ujaf6vgfedss1s0dr@4ax.com...

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:53:25 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
<usenetspam1@yahoo.com> said in alt.atheism:

If God created everything, why did he create sin and punishment for
the sins he created?

He allowed sin because people chose it.

If he hadn't allowed it we couldn't have chosen it. He didn't allow
mammals to breathe water, so we can't choose to breathe water. See?
It's that simple. Your god isn't intelligent enough to figure it out?

He gives laws and punishments for sinning against Him.

Why make sin possible at all? It serves only one purpose - to give
him a reason to torture us. (Unless you accept that the concept was
created by man fairly recently, in which case there's a much simpler
purpose.)

Thanks for your questions.

It would have been nice if, while wasting all that bandwidth, you had
given an answer or two, rather than just a post full of nonsensical
apologetics.

What needs to be said is that you are right. God was in control, even in
Eden. He could have created men as angels that never sinned. He could have
made that clockwork orange, a non-sinful man. He could have ordered the
serpent not to tempt Eve. He could also have taken away all forms of doubt
as to His existence many times over. So why not? Very good question, and you
want an answer, and you're getting it.

The key to all of this, and the only one that actually makes sense, is that
redemption - the state of having been saved and reunited to the maker by the
blood of Christ puts humans in a state infinitely better than that of
angels, Peter says that angels 'desired to look into' the matters of our
salvation. The redeemed state, the state of atonement and sonship to God, is
much greater than that of being a created being. As created beings we are no
more in reality the children of God than Pinocchio would have been Gepetto's
real son in that story, and just as Pinocchio has to go through sin and
redemption in that fairy story - no doubt whether consciously or
unconsciously written as a parable of the Gospel in some ways - in order to
become a real boy, and he has to go into the belly of the whale to do it,
even so Christ goes into the belly of the earth for us (citing Jonah in the
belly of the whale as his example see Luke 11 v 29) so that we can become
real children of God by placing our trust in him. Then we are born again, of
the Spirit. Born into a new sonship, and the spirit of adoption comes to us
so that we cry, Abba, Father. No angelic being ever addressed the Lord of
Hosts thus!

The key is that sin and redemption, and the ensuing sonship, is better than
obedience without ever having sinned. This is true only because of the love
of God, who wanted to bring us into such a relationship with Himself. And so
we see in Colossians how the whole earth was made not only by Christ, but
FOR Christ. There is no purpose to this life beyond that of being found in
Christ and having redemption. For those who have this, the next life is a
place where God will commune with them in glory and blessing and wipe every
tear from their eye.

It cannot be earned, and so the only way to accord it is by faith. Any
earning of it would cause boasting in heaven and detraction from the glory
of God, as we read in Ephesians. In order that you should believe it by an
act of faith, and not be left with merely works to recommend you to God,
which do not work, in spite of their name, there has to be a credible
alternative. Hence God, although the first humans were of course in no doubt
about their creator, allowed runmours and thoughts to spread that constitute
now in their maturity the body of opinion that goes under the name secular
science. It allows those who wish to disbelieve God and the gospel the
perfect out. No-one is forced to believe, indeed, if they do, they will come
up against opposition.

However, as I have shown by omphalist argument and others show by other
argument, there is no reason why the observations of secular science need
detract from anyone being a believer in God, the Bible and even the seven
day creation. The seven day creation is not the Gospel, but it strengthens
faith to believe the whole Bible. You are saved by belief in Christ even if
you cannot manage the seven day creation, and there are those who can manage
the seven day creation but are still trying to use works to recommend
themselves to God, instead of faith in what Christ has done. They will say
"Did I not do this, did I not do that?" but God will say "I never knew
you" - it's faith in what Christ did on the cross, not works to try to add
to it, that recommend us to God and write our names in the Lamb's Book of
Life. Works should indeed emanate from faith as acts of gratitude, but we
should not dream of wishing to boast in them - they are all tainted with
pride and ulterior motives, and sin with be the dirty marbling in all our
best works until we die. Only Christ's robe of perfect righteousness covers
our filthy rags.

God's thoughts are not our thoughts, neither are His ways our ways, but the
Judge of all the Earth shall indeed do right, and the end of the matter will
certainly justify the means. I trust God for this, even though the way is
long and hard and much temporal suffering attends it.

I recommend to you, Al, and all the other readers who have not done so, to
call on Christ, seek His kingdom first, and seek His righteousness, not your
own. All other matters will then come clear to you, and all other needful
things given to you. He is the Alpha and the Omega, God from everlasting to
everlasting, yet made flesh for you in accordance with the prophesies given
unto Israel, and he died and was punished for you, if you will believe on
him, repent and venture your entire trust in Him. Then you will receive the
Holy Spirit as your Comforter and Advocate in this life, and after this life
in your resurrection body you will see Him, be like Him and enjoy Him for
ever in a way that no created being, for all I know even no angel or
archangel has yet experienced.

Best,

Uncle Davey

Who is the Holy Ghost? Is he an uncle? What is his function?

He is the 3rd person in the trinity. He has many functions. See
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/t10.html. He teaches, convicts, intercedes,
comforts, etc.

.... It is the reason for all evil.