John wrote:

1) How does someone get saved?

JERRY
Saved from what?

JW
Saved from our sinful nature.

JERRY
If the bible isn't true, there is no sin, therefore there is no sinful
nature, John.

JW
Every time you lie, every time you look at someone you're not married
to with lust.. be it your neighbor's wife, or his daughter...
Every time you wish you could own that fancy car your neighbor
drives...
You are worthy of death.

JERRY
And here is where you announce you are crazy. YOu are saying that it's
wrong to be attracted to someone if you aren't married to them. You
are crazy. You are saying that because you want something better for
yourself, you are worthy of death. You are just plain nuts here, John.
Have you considered counseling?

JERRY

Your question begs the question of the bible's

authority and veracity.

JW
But there is no question about either.

JERRY
Spoken by a man who doesn't understand how badly the bible fails.

JW
For those of us who have bothered to spend our lives studying it, its
truths are self-evident.

JERRY
What truths are those, John? You aren't, I hope, going to tell me that
the bible is true on prophecy? I can show you clearly that it's not.
You aren't going to tell me it's not contradictory? All you have to do
is to read the gospel accounts of the Resurrection morning to see
that's not true. There is no way to reconcile those accounts.
Certainly you can't say that there is historical evidence to support
the events claimed by the bible? Where?

JW
You sound like the guy who says Shakespeare is "ridiculous", and
"written by a hack", who has not spent a semester or two studying

the

GENIUS that was William Shakespeare.

JERRY
Not at all. You are talking to someone who's background is in theatre
and Shakespeare, but even more than that, you are offering an invalid
metaphor here. Where Shakespeare is concerned, all you have to do is
read the works prior to Shakespeare and the works that came after his
and his genius is clear. You can make a stronger argument that
Shakespeare may not have been the person who actually wrote those
plays, but whomever wrote them was clearly a genius for his time.

However, in the case of the bible, when you examine it for historical
accuracy, it fails. When you check the prophecy claims against
extrabiblical sources of information, we see that the bible's
prophecies didn't come true. Any fool can read the synoptic gospels
and then read the gospel of John, particularly Jesus' trial before
Pilate and see that there are contradictions within the text. Only
someone who begins from the assumption of the bible's inerrancy and
makes rationalizations to support their assumption can continue to
claim such things in the face of overwhelmingly evidence.

JERRY
Put another way, you are starting from an

assumption that the bible is true. I don't grant you that

assumption.

JW
That is your ASSUMPTION.

JERRY
No, that is a fact, and I am prepared to back that claim up, as I have
for the past seven years in these same forums.

JW
There are MANY of us (me for one) who have devoted 20- 30- 40 years

of our lives to studying the Book you so easily dismiss.

JERRY
You may have studied the text, but that doesn't mean you actually read
it critically, or verified the factual content of the book. I can
promise you that you haven't, but I have. And while we are at it, why
do you think I easily dismissed the book? I was once a christian
myself. It was my study of the bible that showed me that it wasn't
worthy of belief.

JW
Just how many times did you read the Bible cover-to-cover, just how
many years did you study it in depth before you decided that it was
not truthful?

JERRY
Here is your problem. You are again assuming the book is correct. You
can read it cover to cover over and over but still not bother to
actually read the prophecy of Tyre's destruction in Ezekiel chapter 26
and then go OUT of the book to read some history to find that this
prophecy never happened. Your analogy here is like the worm in the jar
of horseradish: you think it's the sweetest place in the world because
you have never been anywhere else.

JW
I find history within its pages,

JERRY
You mean like a global flood that never happened? How about the tale
of the exodus that contradicts what is known of Egypt from that same
period?

JW
I find science,

JERRY
You mean like believing in a flat earth? Like believing that the world
has four corners and pillars and columns? Like believing that bats
are fowl and that rabbits chew their cud? That kind of science?

JW
I find morality,

JERRY
Oh, you mean like the claim that yahweh doesn't visit the sins of the
fathers on the sons, but tells the Israelites to murder every man,
woman, child and animal of the Amalekites because of something that
happened three hundred years before? Like giving the rules for how to
sell your daughter into slavery? That kind of morality?

JW
and I find the foundation of our nation we call America.

JERRY
And this one is an entirely different discussion since it will take so
long, but here is something for you to chew on since you obviously
don't have a clue about your own American history:

Deists believe in a Creator, but don't accept Jesus as divine,
therefore they aren't Christians.
During the Constitutional Convention, Ben Franklin (an avowed Deist)
asked if the delegates would consider a prayer before beginning each
day to Almighty god to guide their progress and had to admit in his
diary that only 4-5 people agreed and the request was dropped.

There is NO evidence that the country was founded as a Christian nation
or was ever meant to be one.

JW
Those who have made its study their life work have founded some of

the

world's most advanced free (charity) hospitals. We have founded
secondary schools, and we have founded universities.

JERRY
Irrelevent. We are not discussing the good works done by those who
believe in the bible. We are discussing the bible. Using your logic,
because there are kind, generous and altruistic Muslims means that the
Koran is true and the word of god. The existence of good people
doesn't prove the bible is true. On top of that, the existence of
these schools are as much for indoctrination as they are for education.

JW
Our missionaries were among the first killed in the Gulf War and our
missionaries were among the first killed in this present war.

JERRY
Again, irrelevent. Your missionaries probably should have been killed
earlier since they went into countries where it was illegal to
proselytize any other religion but Islam but continued to break the
law. Their sacrifice (stupidity?) has nothing to do with whether or
not the bible is true.

JW
What PRECISELY have YOU contributed?

JERRY
I could point the question right back to you personally and ask what
you have contributed but pointless ramblings and rantings. What I may
or may not have done personally again is irrelevent to whether or not
the bible is historically accurate, contradictory or fails on prophecy.

JW
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? (raised eyebrow)

JERRY
Yep, I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that your rant is totally
pointless and irrelevent. ;-)

(looks at watch) I'm waiting.

JERRY
You have to prove to me that the bible is true,

JW
OTC, my friend, you must prove it is not.

JERRY
absolutely, and I have and will again. Where do you wish to start,
John? Historical failings? Prophecy failings? Contradictions within
the text?

JERRY

and I can promise you that you can't do that.

JW
With a mind as closed as a steel bear trap, that would likely be an
impossibility.

JERRY
You should probably check out the archives in both free.christians and
alt.talk.creationism on that claim before you stick your foot any
further down your throat and choke on it. Like our illustrious
president who passed out while choking on a pretzel, you could choke on
your own ignorance before this is over. ;-)

JW
Yet I know of those who have sat down with nothing but an open mind,
opened a New Testament, and led themselves to Christ.

JERRY
And some of them were Darwin Award winners too, no doubt. ;-) And of
course there were the celebrity christians like Hitler and Bush.

JW
The book is that convincing to those with no ulterior motives.

JERRY
And no knowledge of history, science or the ability to read critically.

JW
Instead of looking at the "problems", try to imagine, "What if all
this WERE true?"

JERRY
That's where I started. It was after I really read the book that I
realized, "what if it's really not?" From there I got to the point
where I realized, "Oh my god, it's all just a book of goatherder
mythology with very little truth and no factual support at all, isn't
it?"

JW
What if there really IS a God who took flesh and died to provide us
the path to ETERNAL UTOPIA?

JERRY
Then he/she/it would be so smart that he couldn't claim the ignorance
of the bible as his word. He would be embarrassed at the book and the
claims made by those who claim to believe in him. Got any evidence for
the existence of this invisible blue sky pixie?

JW
I still can't figure out why so many wish for Utopia, but when that

is

PRECISELY what Jesus offered us, you say, "no thanks! I'd prefer
hell!"

JERRY
Of course, he also said he would be back for the Second Coming during
the lifetimes of his disciples and then failed to show up, so how
seriously can you take him? He also said that he didn't come to preach
and save anyone other than the Jews, so why would you think you were
included? He also said that faith wasn't enough for salvation and you
also had to do good works, in fact that you had to give up everything
you owned, take up your cross and follow him? You seem to have a home
and a computer, so you can't be a "True Christian (TM)"

JW
The Bible also predicted people like you, people who would prefer

hell

to the "stumbling block" that stands between you and Utopia, Jesus
Christ.

JERRY
And the writers of the book relied on the unfailing lack of thinking
ability to sell their religion to the masses. Congratulations, you
made the list! You are now listed as one too dumb or too desperate to
know that you are being had.

JERRY

If you think Jason is smarter than you on such

matters, you aren't nearly ready for real debates on apologetics.

The bible fails to be true historically.

JW
Not true.

JERRY
Prove it. Show me physical evidence for the global flood. Show me
evidence in Egypt for the Exodus story. I can give you geological
evidence to show that there WAS no global flood. Just look up "varves"
and do even a little bit of reading and you will know that there was no
global flood.

JERRY

Not only is there no evidence

to support historically that the events of the bible happened as
stated,

JW
You are indeed hilarious. I can assume safely that you have never
bothered to visit the Holy Land. I might have had my own doubts had
my military travels landed me in a Turkish town called "Izmir", the
modern day version of the ancient "Efes", what is called in the New
Testament, "Ephesus."

I found myself leaning against a HUGE building, the largest for
several blocks. Turns out that precise building came up in a lesson
in seminary, and the prof, a Dr William S McBirnie informed me that I
had leaned against the wall that St Paul and his guys built at
Ephesus.

Proof.

JERRY
Do you realize how dense you sound,John? You think that because some
of the cities and countries listed in the bible really existed, that
the EVENTS of the bible were true too? Well then, I've got news for
you. Stephen King writes about the state of Maine in his books.
Therefore, there must really have been a Derry there, and a giant
monster he wrote about in the book "It."

Anne Rice wrote about New Orleans. I guess that means that there
really are vampires too, correct? I mean, that's the kind of logic you
are trying to give me here. It's common in folk tales and myths for
stories that already exist to be included. That doesn't mean that the
EVENTS in those tales actually happened. Did Hercules exist and was
born of a virgin? There really is a Greece, you know.

JERRY

but there is archaeological evidence that walls of Jericho were

already down when Joshua arrived there, and there is no evidence to
support the Noachian global flood.

JW
You've been listening to the wrong morons, sport.

JERRY
Really? You really should get out more.
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology/sites/middle_east/jericho.html

Just in part:
Jericho was one of the first sites to be excavated in the Holy Land,
second only to Jerusalem. The preliminary work was carried out in 1868
by Charles Warren, a British engineer. The first scientific excavations
however, didn't come until 1907. Under two German archaeologists, Carl
Watzinger and Ernest Sellin, a series of excavations were conducted
from 1907-1909 and again in 1911. Hoping to validate the story of
Jericho's destruction in the Old Testament, they collected a
substantial amount of information that led them to believe the story of
Joshua and the Israelites. Under closer examination of the data however
, they concluded that Jericho had been unoccupied at the time the
conquest would have occurred.

From 1930-1936 the site was excavated again, this time by British

archaeologist John Garstang. Garstang's work revealed the remains of a
network of collapsed walls (which he dated to about 1400 BC, the time
he believed the Israelites were on their conquest) that had apparently
fallen in a dramatic fashion as opposed to being ruined by abandonment
or decay from natural forces. Disagreeing with Sellin and Watzinger's
findings, he went on to say that the archaeological evidence did in
fact, confirm the destruction of Jericho at the hands of the
Israelites. Garstang's excavation techniques unfortunately were quite
crude by today's standards and are thought to be only partially
circumstantial.

Perhaps the best known and most accurate information from the Jericho
site comes form yet another excavation under Kathleen Kenyan from
1952-1958. Her techniques were far superior to Garstang's and involved
rigorous examination of the soil and very careful recording of its
stratification. Kenyan was able to obtain a cross section of the city
through its entire history by digging a narrow deep trench while
maintaining clean and squared off edges. When presented with an area
that would require wider areas to be excavated- the floor plan of a
house for example- she carefully dug in measured squares while leaving
an untouched strip between each section to allow the stratification to
remain visible. Kenyan's main objective during her excavations at
Jericho was to trace the history of the site back to it's earliest
settlement. While trenching downward through the site she uncovered the
first walled city along with a number of houses and courtyards that had
been constructed over 10,000 years ago, during the Neolithic. Kenyan
was able to learn something about the city's early inhabitants from a
tomb located near the deepest layers of the city. Inside the tomb were
a number of skulls covered with clay. The skulls were dated at about
the seventh millenium BC and were beautifully decorated with paint.
Upon further excavation Kenyan maintained that the walls of Jericho had
been repaired and rebuilt at least seventeen times. The damage may have
been caused by earthquakes. The most recent of these walls (already
dated to around 1400 BC by Garstang) was dated by Kenyan at 2300BC.
Kenyan found no evidence of defensive structures that could confirm
Garstang's previous claims that Jericho had been destroyed by the
Israelites in the 15th century BC. In fact, she concluded that Jericho
had lay in ruins for centuries before the Israelites even arrived. In
short, there was nothing for Joshua to destroy.

JERRY
So, I can believe the scientific research or I can believe a 2000 year
old book of goatherder mythology. Hmmmmm, tough choice. Science gave
me my computer, my car, modern meds, a great way of life, and the book
of mythology gave me...nothing. Oh wait, it did give us a history of
intolerance, fanatical behavior, murders and molestations! I guess
it's left it's mark, hasn't it?

JW
If the church at Ephesus is still there, I believe the rest.

JERRY
Does a child believing in Santa Claus mean that he really exists? How
about a child's belief in the Easter Bunny?

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:14:04 -0700, jw <j w<no>@yahoo.com> wrote:

x-no-archive: yes
On 18 Apr 2005 20:24:48 -0700, "rogue" <rogue719@hotmail.com> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)

John wrote:

1) How does someone get saved?

JERRY
Saved from what?

Saved from our sinful nature.

Every time you lie, every time you look at someone you're not married
to with lust.. be it your neighbor's wife, or his daughter...


Every time you wish you could own that fancy car your neighbor
drives...

You are worthy of death.

I'm very sorry to be unkind,

x-no-archive: yes
On 18 Apr 2005 18:46:13 -0700,

I'm a Baptist John. John think about it. Why would Pentecostal
associate with John MacArthur as I did at his conference this year in
March.


John

Forgive my lapse of memory, sir. I elsewhere explained that my
bi-polar disorder is severe, and one of the things it has robbed me of
organically is my memory.


forgive me?

Forgive my lapse of memory, sir. I elsewhere explained that my
bi-polar disorder is severe, and one of the things it has robbed me of
organically is my memory.

forgive me?