| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"ChitaShines" |
| Date: |
27 Jan 2004 02:46:12 AM |
| Object: |
Raising non-religious child |
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say something
to the person or just let it go? When she could understand, won't she then
be asking "What/who is God?"
If one of our family members/pets dies and someone who doesn't know we're
not religious tells her, "Oh, your dog is up in doggy heaven" or "Your
Grandpa is up in heaven." How do we broach that subject?
When she's finally in school most of the kids around her will probably be
Catholic. Will she get teased/picked on when she doesn't understand when
these other kids talk about God? She's going to be surrounded by Catholic
people in school and am concerned how she will respond to these kids.
Naturally we will not be getting her baptised. What do I say when people
from work or others who don't know our position ask "When will the baby be
baptised?" Of course we'll tell them she won't be. Then we'll get, I'm
sure, a puzzled look. What do we say then?
Will our child come home from school all mad at us because she's "not like
all the other kids" because she's not a Baptist, Catholic, etc.?
Since Catholicism is so engrained in society, do we have to sort of "teach"
her what it's all about? One example would be her seeing someone in a
restaurant closing their eyes and praying before they eat. She'll wonder
why. Do we explain it then or in advance? I'd rather not teach her
anything about it all, but if she asks, then we'll explain. Personally I
think it's sad that she would need to be taught about this social practice
(Catholicism in general) that will be all around her.
What if she's in a group setting involving food and someone gets up to do
the invocation? She will be confused because we wouldn't have taught her
this. Will the adults there tell her this is what's done before you eat?
Basically we would like to raise her to become a free thinker and make her
own decisions one day about what or if she's going to practice a religion.
We aren't going to bash Catholicism to her, but we aren't going to invite it
into her life either. I'm concerned that society (school, other adults)
will be teaching it to her outside of our home and she will think that's the
way things are supposed to be.
Any thoughts are greatly welcome. Thanks!
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| User: "Jim07D4" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
27 Jan 2004 06:03:56 AM |
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"ChitaShines" <chitashines@yahoo.com> said:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say something
to the person or just let it go?
Let it go. Be aware that you can bring about her being as controlled
by religion by being opposed to it, as by being for it. Ignore the
small stuff.
When she could understand, won't she then
be asking "What/who is God?"
She will anyway.
If one of our family members/pets dies and someone who doesn't know we're
not religious tells her, "Oh, your dog is up in doggy heaven" or "Your
Grandpa is up in heaven." How do we broach that subject?
Wait till she asks. But be aware that she will probably believe it for
a while, and there is nothing you can do about that.
Get in touch with a humanist society, check out places and sites like:
http://www.secularceremonies.com/HumanistKids.htm
http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentViewArticle.asp?article=1344
http://users.solve.net/~alien/1999q2.htm
See if you would be happy in a unitarian church. See below about
moving.
When she's finally in school most of the kids around her will probably be
Catholic. Will she get teased/picked on when she doesn't understand when
these other kids talk about God? She's going to be surrounded by Catholic
people in school and am concerned how she will respond to these kids.
Based on personal experience, I'd consider moving to a more mixed
community and/or major city. Seriously.
Naturally we will not be getting her baptised. What do I say when people
from work or others who don't know our position ask "When will the baby be
baptised?" Of course we'll tell them she won't be. Then we'll get, I'm
sure, a puzzled look. What do we say then?
You can't say she won't be, because you don't know that. You can say
"when she wants to be."
Will our child come home from school all mad at us because she's "not like
all the other kids" because she's not a Baptist, Catholic, etc.?
For that and a gazillion other reasons.
Since Catholicism is so engrained in society, do we have to sort of "teach"
her what it's all about? One example would be her seeing someone in a
restaurant closing their eyes and praying before they eat. She'll wonder
why. Do we explain it then or in advance? I'd rather not teach her
anything about it all, but if she asks, then we'll explain. Personally I
think it's sad that she would need to be taught about this social practice
(Catholicism in general) that will be all around her.
In general, don't explain such things "in advance" but instead answer
when asked in a way that satisfies her at her age. "Some people
believe..." is a good start. "I don't believe...." is another.
What if she's in a group setting involving food and someone gets up to do
the invocation? She will be confused because we wouldn't have taught her
this. Will the adults there tell her this is what's done before you eat?
"It is a sign of respect of other people to be quiet for a moment
while they pray together. You don't have to pray with them if you
don't want to. Don't ever let anyone make you pray if you don't want
to. Don't ever let anyone keep you from praying if you want to. Treat
other people the way you want them to treat you."
Basically we would like to raise her to become a free thinker and make her
own decisions one day about what or if she's going to practice a religion.
We aren't going to bash Catholicism to her, but we aren't going to invite it
into her life either. I'm concerned that society (school, other adults)
will be teaching it to her outside of our home and she will think that's the
way things are supposed to be.
You can't avoid that. Religion will not be the biggest problem.
Any thoughts are greatly welcome. Thanks!
You care. That's the most important thing.
Jim07D4
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| User: "CQMMAN" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
27 Jan 2004 03:03:49 AM |
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"ChitaShines" <chitashines@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ozpRb.11923$F86.1405839@twister.southeast.rr.com...
Basically we would like to raise her to become a free thinker and make her
own decisions one day about what or if she's going to practice a religion.
We aren't going to bash Catholicism to her, but we aren't going to invite
it
into her life either. I'm concerned that society (school, other adults)
will be teaching it to her outside of our home and she will think that's
the
way things are supposed to be.
Any thoughts are greatly welcome. Thanks!
She can only make her own decisions about it if she knows both sides of the
story. I would certainly explain it all to her, but make sure she realises
that it evidence suggests that a biblical god doesn't exists just as santa
doesn't exist.
If you don't inform her about it someone else will..
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| User: "Reverend Lovejoy" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
28 Jan 2004 01:36:57 PM |
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"ChitaShines" <chitashines@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ozpRb.11923$F86.1405839@twister.southeast.rr.com...
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly
against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a
few
concerns regarding raising our child:
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say
something
to the person or just let it go? When she could understand, won't she
then
be asking "What/who is God?"
If one of our family members/pets dies and someone who doesn't know we're
not religious tells her, "Oh, your dog is up in doggy heaven" or "Your
Grandpa is up in heaven." How do we broach that subject?
When she's finally in school most of the kids around her will probably be
Catholic. Will she get teased/picked on when she doesn't understand when
these other kids talk about God? She's going to be surrounded by Catholic
people in school and am concerned how she will respond to these kids.
Naturally we will not be getting her baptised. What do I say when people
from work or others who don't know our position ask "When will the baby be
baptised?" Of course we'll tell them she won't be. Then we'll get, I'm
sure, a puzzled look. What do we say then?
Will our child come home from school all mad at us because she's "not like
all the other kids" because she's not a Baptist, Catholic, etc.?
Since Catholicism is so engrained in society, do we have to sort of
"teach"
her what it's all about? One example would be her seeing someone in a
restaurant closing their eyes and praying before they eat. She'll wonder
why. Do we explain it then or in advance? I'd rather not teach her
anything about it all, but if she asks, then we'll explain. Personally I
think it's sad that she would need to be taught about this social practice
(Catholicism in general) that will be all around her.
What if she's in a group setting involving food and someone gets up to do
the invocation? She will be confused because we wouldn't have taught her
this. Will the adults there tell her this is what's done before you eat?
Basically we would like to raise her to become a free thinker and make her
own decisions one day about what or if she's going to practice a religion.
We aren't going to bash Catholicism to her, but we aren't going to invite
it
into her life either. I'm concerned that society (school, other adults)
will be teaching it to her outside of our home and she will think that's
the
way things are supposed to be.
Any thoughts are greatly welcome. Thanks!
Religious belief of any sort requires pretty constant re-inforcement
throughout childhood and puberty. Without that, any notions of "Goddidit",
"your doggy is in heaven", "Santa Claus, and "Tooth fairy" kind of die out
as the kid grows up. If someone never goes to church or attends religious
service they'll probably fall into some type of agnosticism. If you actively
teach a child critical thinking and develop reasoning ability, they'll most
likely become some form of atheist.
--
"I remember another gentle visitor from the heavens, he came in peace and
hen died, only to come back to life, and his name was E.T., the
extraterestrial. I loved that little guy."
- Reverend Lovejoy, The Simpsons
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
27 Jan 2004 08:36:12 AM |
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ChitaShines wrote:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say something
to the person or just let it go? When she could understand, won't she then
be asking "What/who is God?"
If you are raising a child to live in a society containing a
significant fraction of religious believers, part of that child's
education should be about the people around you, including their
politics and religion. This is no stranger than teaching about
wildlife, the weather and everything else the child needs to know
about and should be just as matter of fact. A child generally has no
trouble accepting things as they are as long as its parents do not
deny the reality around them or describe things as fact (religion, the
Tooth fairy, etc.) that do not actually exist. These are the things
that screw kids' minds up.
If one of our family members/pets dies and someone who doesn't know we're
not religious tells her, "Oh, your dog is up in doggy heaven" or "Your
Grandpa is up in heaven." How do we broach that subject?
In advance. Teach them about how other people's minds work. Then go
on a field trip through religious broadcasting or to a church. Talk
about why people think this way and how hard it is for them to think
clearly once they have been taught to believe things than cannot be
investigated. Many of the facts of life are sad, even if interesting.
When she's finally in school most of the kids around her will probably be
Catholic. Will she get teased/picked on when she doesn't understand when
these other kids talk about God? She's going to be surrounded by Catholic
people in school and am concerned how she will respond to these kids.
With an understanding of how they are different from her, and with
empathy for them, anyway. This is just an early example of the value
of a diplomatic approach to others.
Naturally we will not be getting her baptised. What do I say when people
from work or others who don't know our position ask "When will the baby be
baptised?" Of course we'll tell them she won't be. Then we'll get, I'm
sure, a puzzled look. What do we say then?
So you haven't faced her problems in your own life, yet.
Will our child come home from school all mad at us because she's "not like
all the other kids" because she's not a Baptist, Catholic, etc.?
Eventually, she may be mad at you for all sorts of irrational things.
Its called being a teenager. But kids love understanding things more
than anything. That is the power of religion. It gives kids a
feeling that there are easily understandable explanations for the most
complicated subjects. That wonderful feeling of being sure you are
right about important questions is what is so hard for adults who have
grown up in religion to give up and face the complexities of reality.
But if you engage your child's mind in the wealth of what is known
about actual reality from the outset, religion will look silly and
'childish' to her.
Since Catholicism is so engrained in society, do we have to sort of "teach"
her what it's all about?
The more she knows the better she will be prepared for a reality among
believers.
One example would be her seeing someone in a
restaurant closing their eyes and praying before they eat. She'll wonder
why. Do we explain it then or in advance? I'd rather not teach her
anything about it all, but if she asks, then we'll explain.
I think that is a short sighted approach.
Personally I
think it's sad that she would need to be taught about this social practice
(Catholicism in general) that will be all around her.
Just part of her reality.
What if she's in a group setting involving food and someone gets up to do
the invocation? She will be confused because we wouldn't have taught her
this. Will the adults there tell her this is what's done before you eat?
Basically we would like to raise her to become a free thinker and make her
own decisions one day about what or if she's going to practice a religion.
We aren't going to bash Catholicism to her, but we aren't going to invite it
into her life either. I'm concerned that society (school, other adults)
will be teaching it to her outside of our home and she will think that's the
way things are supposed to be.
Any thoughts are greatly welcome. Thanks!
--
John Popelish
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
27 Jan 2004 09:04:19 PM |
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ChitaShines wrote:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
Congrats. Having a kid changes your life in ways you cannot even
imagine. Many memories from your own childhood will be resurfacing
after being forgotten for decades as you become the parent.
The single biggest problem you will have to deal with are the people,
young and old alike, who tell your little one that he/she will go to
Hell if he/she doesn't believe in God/Jesus. Just be honest without
being frightening. Tell your child that different people believe lots
of silly things; sometimes people hurt your feelings without meaning to;
and that two people can both be right even if they don't agree on anything.
MarkA
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| User: "George Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
31 Jan 2004 09:39:53 AM |
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ChitaShines wrote:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say something
to the person or just let it go? When she could understand, won't she then
be asking "What/who is God?"
....<snip>...
I never verified this but a long time ago I read that the "god bless
you" phrase was supposed to scare off the devil that was attempting to
suck the breath out of the sneezer. As such it could be a useful
introduction to superstitious beliefs and how silly they can be now that
we actually know what a sneeze is.
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| User: "George Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
31 Jan 2004 09:49:34 AM |
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George Fischer wrote:
ChitaShines wrote:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly
against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have
a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say
something
to the person or just let it go? When she could understand, won't she
then
be asking "What/who is God?"
...<snip>...
I never verified this but a long time ago I read that the "god bless
you" phrase was supposed to scare off the devil that was attempting to
suck the breath out of the sneezer. As such it could be a useful
introduction to superstitious beliefs and how silly they can be now that
we actually know what a sneeze is.
I just found a reference on snopes with a number of theories on how this
practice was started. Nothing definate but they all stem from a lack of
understanding of what a sneeze is. Still, its a good example of
superstitious behavior.
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| User: "SMChristenson" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
03 Feb 2004 08:50:57 AM |
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I suggest some caution. Religion is such a part of personality, I'm not
sure it's possible to "grow" an atheist child. And you might only create
resentment and the opposite rebellion by trying. Although I'm not sure
you can avoid a creationist child, I think you can avoid a
fundamentalist child. Perhaps:
1. Make sure their world is as broad as possible. Travel, the web,
encyclopedias, maybe a foreign language. Hands-on experience is
probably easier in larger cities where there are science and art museums
-- or just the Thai restaurent around the corner. But that doesn't mean
educational vacations and camps aren't fine too.
2. Teach them to think critically. Games that use logic. Watch the news
together and comment on the suppositions underlying the statements
announcers and guests make. Debate club. Science club. Writing. Maybe
even some computer programming! I could recommend a summer school that
has courses like logic and etymologies.
3. Have Discovery and the Skeptical Inquirer on the coffee table instead
of Reader's Digest. I'm not sure I would avoid having a bible around.
Keep it on the shelf in a small mythology section next to the Egyptian
Book of the Dead and the Epic of Gilgamesh for their shared traditions.
4. Give them permission and perhaps some instruction on how to
(gracefully) stand up for their beliefs even when they go against the
local culture.
And a currently somewhat unpopular one I would ask you to take seriously:
5. Supplement #1 by encouraging them to read more dead, white authors.
Really. I see a lot of otherwise intelligent people who may have
been through college, but it was college as tech school. They never
received a truly liberal education. Now they find their personal lives or
the world situation uncertain and fearful and they are going back 2000
years to see if the answers are in the bible. Not likely when you
consider the closest contemporary equivalents to biblical Israel have
probably been totalitarian Taliban Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia where
popular entertainment is going to the stadium for the Saturday night
stonings to death. Let them learn for themselves that "it doesn't all
come from the bible". The European Enlightenment was built by hundreds of
brave writers who fought for the dignity and equality of all people. It
hardly existed as a concept before then. Go beyond history books.
Encourage them to read the original writings of the best minds of the last
few hundred years who left us with the _man_-made intellectual gifts we
have inherited today.
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| User: "LanaXZR" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
03 Feb 2004 10:04:38 AM |
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SMChristenson wrote:
I suggest some caution. Religion is such a part of personality, I'm not
sure it's possible to "grow" an atheist child. And you might only create
resentment and the opposite rebellion by trying.
I disagree. Religion is only a part of personality if the person has been
indoctrinated in it. Certainly, some children rebel against their upbringing. I
was brought up Catholic but realized as a teenager that I didn't believe in any
of it. I raised an atheist child simply by expressing my non-belief whenever
the occasion arose. He's now married and raising my atheist grandson.
Lana (growing heathens since 1972)
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
03 Feb 2004 11:25:00 AM |
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In article <20040203110438.24726.00001195@mb-m16.aol.com>, LanaXZR says...
SMChristenson wrote:
I suggest some caution. Religion is such a part of personality, I'm not
sure it's possible to "grow" an atheist child. And you might only create
resentment and the opposite rebellion by trying.
I disagree. Religion is only a part of personality if the person has been
indoctrinated in it. Certainly, some children rebel against their upbringing. I
was brought up Catholic but realized as a teenager that I didn't believe in any
of it. I raised an atheist child simply by expressing my non-belief whenever
the occasion arose. He's now married and raising my atheist grandson.
Excellent. I wasn't raised religious and so I remained an atheist. No big
deal.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
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| User: "SMChristenson" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
03 Feb 2004 03:04:20 PM |
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On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:25:00 +0000, Robibnikoff wrote:
In article <20040203110438.24726.00001195@mb-m16.aol.com>, LanaXZR
says...
SMChristenson wrote:
I suggest some caution. Religion is such a part of personality, I'm
not sure it's possible to "grow" an atheist child. And you might only
create resentment and the opposite rebellion by trying.
I disagree. Religion is only a part of personality if the person has
been indoctrinated in it. Certainly, some children rebel against their
upbringing. I was brought up Catholic but realized as a teenager that I
didn't believe in any of it. I raised an atheist child simply by
expressing my non-belief whenever the occasion arose. He's now married
and raising my atheist grandson.
Excellent. I wasn't raised religious and so I remained an atheist. No
big deal.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
Obviously, it should be clear that I am on your side with a list of
specific suggestions following my precautionary note. It seemed inane to
note that parents are _an_ influence on children -- albeit a major one.
You would let him attend public school or stay overnight with friends? For
all you know, you could have a daughter who falls insanely in love with
the captain of the football team -- who happens to be a Jesus freak.
You both speak rather like you believe the mind is a tabla rasa to be
programmed. Although I think the pendulum has swung _far_ to far toward
genetic determinism, I very much think we have inherent mammalian wiring
that conditions perception. Specific to this discussion, I believe I can
show
"persistent and repeatable maladaptive behaviour on the part of my cats
based upon an initially misinterpreted observation."
Which I think is an outstanding definition for: superstition.
I believe a child without education and training in logical thinking is
likely to fall back upon similarly undisciplined pattern recognitions.
That such thinking is in fact the mental world of the preschool child. In
other words, perhaps as a mirror opposite of "original sin", I'm rather
convinced people have something like "inherent superstitious
proclivities." So we'll have to disagree on the tabla rasa thing. I'm
not sure training a child to recognize and reject superstition is so easy
within this culture which cherishes one's inner superstition.
Note that, of course, I am speaking exclusively in terms of physiological
psychology and making no metaphysical claims for inborn religion. Neither
am I stating that a tendency to fall back upon superstition endorses
superstition. No more than I would observe people congregating
confortably with people who are familiar or similar to them and decide to
promote apartheid.
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
28 Jan 2004 05:24:29 PM |
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:46:12 GMT, "ChitaShines"
<chitashines@yahoo.com> wrote:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
If you are a good parent your always will have a few concerns.
It comes with the job.
8-)
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say something
to the person or just let it go?
Don't sweat the small stuff.
"figures of speech" - are just that.
When people say "how do you do" they don't *really* want your entire
recent medical history - its a figure of speech.
When she could understand, won't she then
be asking "What/who is God?"
She is going to ask anyway.
Tell her the truth.
"some people believe there is a powerful invisible magical person that
can see everything and takes care of the world -"
etc etc.
If she asks you "Daddy do *you* believe in God".
Tell her the truth - say "No, but a lot of people do."
Many children DO believe in baby Jesus or whatever - for a while.
DON'T make a big fuss about it either way - be honest.
If one of our family members/pets dies and someone who doesn't know we're
not religious tells her, "Oh, your dog is up in doggy heaven" or "Your
Grandpa is up in heaven." How do we broach that subject?
Tell her what people believe...
"Some people believe that when we die we are not really *ALL* dead,
but that something of us lives on and goes to be with God."
"Some people say they don't really know what hapens to us when we are
dead."
( It's OK to not know the answer to things!!!! )
My personal favourite:
"Some people believe that we live on in the memory of those that love
us. If you remember doggy/grandma/whatever and think about how nice
they were then they will still be alive in your heart and in your
dreams. You will always remember doggy/grandma wont you sweetheart?"
Be honest - and give the kid as much as she needs to know - if she
wants more - give her more - don't give her a lecture when she wants a
sound bite.
Oh, and be honest.
Did I mention that?
8-)
As for being different - that's a tough one - but if you are not
different for one thing its another so it has to be dealt with anyway.
"everyone is different and that's OK"
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
27 Jan 2004 04:36:52 PM |
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:46:12 GMT, "ChitaShines"
<chitashines@yahoo.com> wrote:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say something
to the person or just let it go? When she could understand, won't she then
be asking "What/who is God?"
Ask: "Which God?"
If one of our family members/pets dies and someone who doesn't know we're
not religious tells her, "Oh, your dog is up in doggy heaven" or "Your
Grandpa is up in heaven." How do we broach that subject?
Ask them not to tell lies to your child.
When she's finally in school most of the kids around her will probably be
Catholic. Will she get teased/picked on when she doesn't understand when
these other kids talk about God? She's going to be surrounded by Catholic
people in school and am concerned how she will respond to these kids.
Educate her about their god, and all the other gods.
Naturally we will not be getting her baptised. What do I say when people
from work or others who don't know our position ask "When will the baby be
baptised?" Of course we'll tell them she won't be. Then we'll get, I'm
sure, a puzzled look. What do we say then?
Nothing. Respond only to direct questions.
It works every time.
Will our child come home from school all mad at us because she's "not like
all the other kids" because she's not a Baptist, Catholic, etc.?
I don't know.
Mine came home proud, because she knew she was better than the others.
Being 'not like the others' can be positive.
Since Catholicism is so engrained in society, do we have to sort of "teach"
her what it's all about? One example would be her seeing someone in a
restaurant closing their eyes and praying before they eat. She'll wonder
why. Do we explain it then or in advance? I'd rather not teach her
anything about it all, but if she asks, then we'll explain. Personally I
think it's sad that she would need to be taught about this social practice
(Catholicism in general) that will be all around her.
You would be derilict in your duty if you did not educate her about
all religious beliefs.
You seem to have a problem with this.
Education is not the same as indocrination.
You will teach her about germs, but that doesn'y mean she will get
diseased, quite the contrary.
Teach her all about religions in order to innoculate her from the
mind-viruses of theism.
Knowledge is power.
What if she's in a group setting involving food and someone gets up to do
the invocation? She will be confused because we wouldn't have taught her
this. Will the adults there tell her this is what's done before you eat?
Then teach her about it.
Basically we would like to raise her to become a free thinker and make her
own decisions one day about what or if she's going to practice a religion.
We aren't going to bash Catholicism to her, but we aren't going to invite it
into her life either. I'm concerned that society (school, other adults)
will be teaching it to her outside of our home and she will think that's the
way things are supposed to be.
If they teach her, then that is good.
If they indoctrinate her that is bad.
Teach her first yourself.
Then she will be armed at least partially against external
indoctrination.
It worked very well with my daughter!
Any thoughts are greatly welcome. Thanks!
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| User: "pan" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
27 Jan 2004 07:40:03 AM |
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:46:12 GMT, "ChitaShines"
<chitashines@yahoo.com> wrote:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say something
to the person or just let it go? When she could understand, won't she then
be asking "What/who is God?"
If one of our family members/pets dies and someone who doesn't know we're
not religious tells her, "Oh, your dog is up in doggy heaven" or "Your
Grandpa is up in heaven." How do we broach that subject?
If she brings it up later, tell her:
"Mommy and daddy don't believe that's true.
Mommy and daddy loved Grandpa very much, and we'll always love him,
and be grateful to him, and we'll always keep our memories of him in
our hearts."
When she's finally in school most of the kids around her will probably be
Catholic. Will she get teased/picked on when she doesn't understand when
these other kids talk about God? She's going to be surrounded by Catholic
people in school and am concerned how she will respond to these kids.
The majority of Catholics that I've known haven't been particularly
religious.
Some are only 'Roman Catholic' in name. e.g. They're baptized, and
they may even have they're children baptized, but they're actually
agnostics.
Naturally we will not be getting her baptised. What do I say when people
from work or others who don't know our position ask "When will the baby be
baptised?"
That's a nosey question! (Especially if they don't know what your
religious beliefs are.)
Of course we'll tell them she won't be. Then we'll get, I'm
sure, a puzzled look. What do we say then?
"We don't believe in baptism."
"Should we be discussing our religious beliefs at work?"
"Is it any of your business?"
Will our child come home from school all mad at us because she's "not like
all the other kids" because she's not a Baptist, Catholic, etc.?
Why should she?
Catholics and Baptists aren't all that alike, so why wouldn't
'differences' be tolerated in that school?
Since Catholicism is so engrained in society, do we have to sort of "teach"
her what it's all about? One example would be her seeing someone in a
restaurant closing their eyes and praying before they eat. She'll wonder
why.
I would recommend teaching her, as she has questions.
Tell her things like:
"That family believes in praying before they eat their meals. But
mommy and daddy don't believe in that."
"Some people believe in a god.. Other people believe in a totally
different god. Nearly all of these god believing people believe
that *only* their gods are real.
Mommy and daddy see no good reason to believe that any of these gods
are real."
Do we explain it then or in advance? I'd rather not teach her
anything about it all, but if she asks, then we'll explain. Personally I
think it's sad that she would need to be taught about this social practice
(Catholicism in general) that will be all around her.
What if she's in a group setting involving food and someone gets up to do
the invocation? She will be confused because we wouldn't have taught her
this. Will the adults there tell her this is what's done before you eat?
She'll be exposed to alot of weird rules no matter what school she
goes to. =-/
Basically we would like to raise her to become a free thinker and make her
own decisions one day about what or if she's going to practice a religion.
Great!
We aren't going to bash Catholicism to her, but we aren't going to invite it
into her life either. I'm concerned that society (school, other adults)
will be teaching it to her outside of our home and she will think that's the
way things are supposed to be.
I think the most important thing is to teach her critical thinking
skills, and don't worry so much about the other stuff.
pan
Any thoughts are greatly welcome. Thanks!
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
28 Jan 2004 06:49:22 PM |
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:46:12 GMT, "ChitaShines"
<chitashines@yahoo.com> wrote:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say something
to the person or just let it go? When she could understand, won't she then
be asking "What/who is God?"
I wouldn't worry about this. Don't bother saying anything to the
person - most people just think it's polite to say and don't really
think about what it means.
If she asks - tell her what you know of the matter.
If one of our family members/pets dies and someone who doesn't know we're
not religious tells her, "Oh, your dog is up in doggy heaven" or "Your
Grandpa is up in heaven." How do we broach that subject?
I have a child and no one has ever told her this. But again - just
answer her questions if she asks or looks puzzled.
When she's finally in school most of the kids around her will probably be
Catholic. Will she get teased/picked on when she doesn't understand when
these other kids talk about God? She's going to be surrounded by Catholic
people in school and am concerned how she will respond to these kids.
If she has a close friend that is Catholic - believe me, the friend
will inform her of whatever the friend understands. Distortions and
all. Mine did when I was young. I was raised as a non-believing
Unitarian and I used to only whisper cuss words because my Roman
Catholic best friend thought it was a sin to say them out loud. She
was very ostentatious about things like that. Well - that was her. It
was mostly a game and I never saw it as a serious thing. I know more
about Catholism than I do of the more common religions in my small
home town because she told me much of what they do. But it's more
like having a friend that comes from a different country with
different customs than it is about it being confusing to the child.
They just accept that other families do different things.
Some may pick on her, but I suspect that will be more likely to happen
because the bullies may find her easy to pick on than because she is
of a different religion.
Naturally we will not be getting her baptised. What do I say when people
from work or others who don't know our position ask "When will the baby be
baptised?" Of course we'll tell them she won't be. Then we'll get, I'm
sure, a puzzled look. What do we say then?
I've never been asked. I would just say - We aren't Christian - why
would you assume we were? with an arched eyebrow.
Will our child come home from school all mad at us because she's "not like
all the other kids" because she's not a Baptist, Catholic, etc.?
My daughter felt she was missing something by not going to church.
When I told her it was mostly like very boring school she didn't feel
so left out.
One thing I did not expect was a custom of the churches to have
picnics and have the children invite other children. I shocked a
couple of her playmates by telling them that the reason I wasn't
allowing her to go was because it wasn't appropriate. I was a bit
hyper alert to other parents trying to induct her, but I never found a
reason to think that. It was OK with me that the kids talked to her
about religion, because I think kids should be able to do that.
One situation came up with Bobby Soxers soft ball league. One of her
good friends was in the league - her mother was a family friend (an
employee of my sister's) that was a big supporter - the grandparents
organized the area league. So we signed her up for a season because
she was interested. We had no idea that the brochure said the team
was also for 'spiritual growth', although it said anyone of any belief
was welcome. As it turned out - the league's idea of 'spiritual
growth' was having the team say a group prayer before each game and
practice. (I don't know how that promotes spiritual growth, but
that's another post). When the first practice started and the manager
was asking for parents to volunteer tasks - the first one was to make
copies of the team prayer and pass them out. My husband blanched and
immediately protested. The manager didn't have a problem with my
daughter not saying the prayer but it really bothered us that she had
to stand there being uncomfortable while the team 'prayed'.
Apparently all beliefs being accepted mean that the prayer was Judeo
Christian and spoke of God, Our Father.
What was really interesting was how shocked some of the other parents
were that we were atheists and didn't like the prayer. One woman was
very interested because she had never heard of atheists before. The
woman who made the copies was not religious but said her daughter was
Christian and she didn't care. The friend's mother was pretty upset
about the whold thing and went running to my sister to show her how
innocent the prayer was. My sister had to point out how it wasn't
non-demoninational and didn't support all beliefs.
Weird. We left it up the kidlet as to whether she wanted to continue
the league through the year and then just didn't join the next year.
Since Catholicism is so engrained in society, do we have to sort of "teach"
her what it's all about? One example would be her seeing someone in a
restaurant closing their eyes and praying before they eat. She'll wonder
why. Do we explain it then or in advance? I'd rather not teach her
anything about it all, but if she asks, then we'll explain. Personally I
think it's sad that she would need to be taught about this social practice
(Catholicism in general) that will be all around her.
Mostly I just insist on manners of being silent if anyone wants to say
grace.
What if she's in a group setting involving food and someone gets up to do
the invocation? She will be confused because we wouldn't have taught her
this. Will the adults there tell her this is what's done before you eat?
Explain it to her if you are going to eat with others and before hand
if she goes somewhere without you.
Basically we would like to raise her to become a free thinker and make her
own decisions one day about what or if she's going to practice a religion.
We aren't going to bash Catholicism to her, but we aren't going to invite it
into her life either. I'm concerned that society (school, other adults)
will be teaching it to her outside of our home and she will think that's the
way things are supposed to be.
I keep a sharp ear to what my kid says and ask questions to find out
what adults bring up to her. I've only had it happen once that I had
to talk to a camp counselor who hadn't thought it through before she
started talking about her beliefs - she agreed that it was not cool to
push that (a responsible girl who is now being gradually widened in
her views by my daughter so I guess it can work both ways). I did
narrowly miss putting my child (early on) in a home daycare that
pushed Christianity at the children without explicitly telling the
parents. I think this was a case of the caretaker being so deluded
that she didn't even expect any parents to not be thrilled she was
doing that. As I was looking around I asked her about all the
Christian stuff on the walls and she enthusiastically started to tell
me about how she makes the children pray and memorize bible verses. I
said no thank you and then went and outed her to the organization that
recommended her to me. They were pretty shocked about it.
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| User: "Yang" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
29 Jan 2004 01:55:58 AM |
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:46:12 GMT, "ChitaShines"
<chitashines@yahoo.com> wrote:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
Alway be honest with your child, and keep them informed as best you
can. And if he/she grows up to be religious despite all that, accept
his/her faith and humanity. In the end you have to give them the
choice to live their lives as they chose.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balanced' budget: -525 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -514 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
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| User: "Brian Henderson" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
27 Jan 2004 03:23:28 PM |
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:46:12 GMT, "ChitaShines"
<chitashines@yahoo.com> wrote:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly against
religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I have a few
concerns regarding raising our child:
Congrats on your coming child. Kids are great. ;)
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say something
to the person or just let it go? When she could understand, won't she then
be asking "What/who is God?"
You can't possibly raise a child who is totally ignorant of religion.
It's part of the culture, just ignore it.
If one of our family members/pets dies and someone who doesn't know we're
not religious tells her, "Oh, your dog is up in doggy heaven" or "Your
Grandpa is up in heaven." How do we broach that subject?
Ignore it.
When she's finally in school most of the kids around her will probably be
Catholic. Will she get teased/picked on when she doesn't understand when
these other kids talk about God? She's going to be surrounded by Catholic
people in school and am concerned how she will respond to these kids.
Most kids don't know anything about God until they are older so you
have plenty of time. My daughters have never once had a problem with
that though. You simply can't have an ignorant child, they are
*GOING* to know about religion whether you like it or not. You are
doing your kids a dis-service if you try to keep them in the dark.
There's a difference between a non-religious child and an ignorant
child. The best you can do is hope your child makes the right
decisions, but ultimately, the decision whether to believe or not
isn't yours, it's hers.
Naturally we will not be getting her baptised. What do I say when people
from work or others who don't know our position ask "When will the baby be
baptised?" Of course we'll tell them she won't be. Then we'll get, I'm
sure, a puzzled look. What do we say then?
Tell people you're an atheist and that's that. Neither of our kids
were baptized, we never had a problem with it.
Will our child come home from school all mad at us because she's "not like
all the other kids" because she's not a Baptist, Catholic, etc.?
Nope. Religion simply doesn't come up on the schoolyard, any more
than racism does. Black kids will play with white kids, Christians
will play with atheists, it just doesn't matter to kids.
Since Catholicism is so engrained in society, do we have to sort of "teach"
her what it's all about? One example would be her seeing someone in a
restaurant closing their eyes and praying before they eat. She'll wonder
why. Do we explain it then or in advance? I'd rather not teach her
anything about it all, but if she asks, then we'll explain. Personally I
think it's sad that she would need to be taught about this social practice
(Catholicism in general) that will be all around her.
That's not good for her. She'll learn on her own whether you want her
to or not. Raising an ignorant child is a bad idea, she should be
exposed to religious ideas early and you should explain why you don't
believe them. Otherwise, she'll just fall for an attractive cult
later on in life because she doesn't have a basis in rationality.
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
27 Jan 2004 02:31:59 PM |
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One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach ChitaShines:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly
against religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious. I
have a few concerns regarding raising our child:
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say
something to the person or just let it go? When she could understand,
won't she then be asking "What/who is God?"
Try "gezundheit" instead.
If one of our family members/pets dies and someone who doesn't know
we're not religious tells her, "Oh, your dog is up in doggy heaven" or
"Your Grandpa is up in heaven." How do we broach that subject?
Explain that many people have many different beliefs about death that we
can't prove, which is why they are called beliefs. Also explain that you
do not share these beliefs with them.
When she's finally in school most of the kids around her will probably
be Catholic. Will she get teased/picked on when she doesn't understand
when these other kids talk about God? She's going to be surrounded by
Catholic people in school and am concerned how she will respond to these
kids.
When I was in school, the subject rarely came up. Kids like to talk about
cartoons, playtime, toys, games, their families, their pets... be ready,
but let them bring it up.
Naturally we will not be getting her baptised. What do I say when
people from work or others who don't know our position ask "When will
the baby be baptised?" Of course we'll tell them she won't be. Then
we'll get, I'm sure, a puzzled look. What do we say then?
Tell them you are sorry you don't share in their beliefs.
Will our child come home from school all mad at us because she's "not
like all the other kids" because she's not a Baptist, Catholic, etc.?
I doubt it, unless you are sending her to a religious school. If she's
outgoing enough, she'll find friends. Also, kids are famous for teasing
those who don't fit into their agendas. Even those who do the teasing get
teased by those with different agendas. If you're feeling bold, bookmark a
few verses from the bible that will show your child where the religious
kids learned this behavior.
Since Catholicism is so engrained in society, do we have to sort of
"teach" her what it's all about?
Absolutely not! If she is interested, she'll pursue it herself.
One example would be her seeing
someone in a restaurant closing their eyes and praying before they eat.
She'll wonder why. Do we explain it then or in advance?
Cross each bridge as you get to it, but wait for them to bring it up. I've
personally never noticed anyone praying in a restaurant. I also think it
should be held along the same lines as smoking. Let them pray outside.
I'd rather not
teach her anything about it all, but if she asks, then we'll explain.
There ya go.
Personally I think it's sad that she would need to be taught about this
social practice (Catholicism in general) that will be all around her.
Would you teach her about Islam if you were in an Islamic neighborhood? I
know I wouldn't.
What if she's in a group setting involving food and someone gets up to
do the invocation? She will be confused because we wouldn't have taught
her this. Will the adults there tell her this is what's done before you
eat?
I became a skeptic at age seven. From that point on, I've been anti-
religion. When faced with that kind of situation, I'd never make a scene.
I'd just let them do as they wanted, without actually participating. Not
closing your eyes or bowing your head in prayer is very inconspicuous,
especially when everyone else is. And if someone "catches you" at it, more
often than not you've found an ally.
Basically we would like to raise her to become a free thinker and make
her own decisions one day about what or if she's going to practice a
religion. We aren't going to bash Catholicism to her, but we aren't
going to invite it into her life either. I'm concerned that society
(school, other adults) will be teaching it to her outside of our home
and she will think that's the way things are supposed to be.
The church likes to go after them when they are young. Most of the time if
you can keep them away from the sharks for the first decade you'll be ok.
Watch out who is teaching her - you can determine a teacher's secularity at
the parent/teacher meetings at the beginning of each year with a few well-
composed questions - and remember that separation of church and state is
still the law of the land.
I let my 11-year-old go to church with her friend one morning recently. I
asked her about it later, she said it was wierd. We also went to a
cousin's bar-mitzvah last year, and we sat in the back and quietly made fun
of it all. That was quality time...
Any thoughts are greatly welcome. Thanks!
....any time...
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
______________
The fool says in his heart "there is no God".
The wise man says it to the world.
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: Re: Raising non-religious child |
27 Jan 2004 06:07:23 AM |
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TV's ChitaShines wrote:
We are expecting our first child this spring. Neither one of us is
religious. I consider myself a humanist/atheist. I'm more strongly
against religion than my spouse, but we both still are not religious.
I have a few concerns regarding raising our child:
When she sneezes and someone says, "God bless you", are we to say
something to the person or just let it go? When she could
understand, won't she then be asking "What/who is God?"
I would teach her about all different kinds of mythology, and explain to her
that god is a myth just like Santa Claus or Zeus.
Naturally we will not be getting her baptised. What do I say when
people from work or others who don't know our position ask "When will
the baby be baptised?" Of course we'll tell them she won't be. Then
we'll get, I'm sure, a puzzled look. What do we say then?
Tell them to *****. Seriously, if they're of the fundie variety that
would get upset that you weren't baptizing your child, do you really care
what they think? Or you could just tell them it's none of their business,
which it isn't.
Since Catholicism is so engrained in society, do we have to sort of
"teach" her what it's all about? One example would be her seeing
someone in a restaurant closing their eyes and praying before they
eat. She'll wonder why. Do we explain it then or in advance? I'd
rather not teach her anything about it all, but if she asks, then
we'll explain. Personally I think it's sad that she would need to be
taught about this social practice (Catholicism in general) that will
be all around her.
I would wait until she asks about it, then explain to her what is going on.
What if she's in a group setting involving food and someone gets up
to do the invocation? She will be confused because we wouldn't have
taught her this. Will the adults there tell her this is what's done
before you eat?
I'd expose her to this as well, explaining to her that it's something that
"they" believe in and that she should just brush it off and think nothing of
it.
Basically we would like to raise her to become a free thinker and
make her own decisions one day about what or if she's going to
practice a religion. We aren't going to bash Catholicism to her, but
we aren't going to invite it into her life either. I'm concerned
that society (school, other adults) will be teaching it to her
outside of our home and she will think that's the way things are
supposed to be.
Teach her to think before society gets to her. I was lucky enough to learn
to think from a small child, and even though I was indoctrinated by religion
I never believed in it and was able to run far away from it when I came of
age.
Disclaimer: I don't have children, but my advise is what I would do if I had
any.
--
Don't waste your touch, you won't feel anything
Or were you sent to save me?
I've thought too much
You won't find anything worthy of redeeming
AFI - The Leaving Song Pt. II
aa #2133
apatriot #19
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