Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle"



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Mike Painter"
Date: 06 Jan 2006 12:17:11 PM
Object: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle"
From his column today.
And I must note here that when the first news came out on the NBC-TV Today
Show about the disaster, the governor of West Virginia began his comments
with "Here in West Virginia, we believe in miracles, and we're praying for
the miners." When the first report was made that all 13 had survived, people
were quick to attribute it to God. One miner's young wife, 27, clutching her
baby girl, said, "It just shows you enough prayers went out. It's a
miracle." And, President Bush said, "We send our prayers." On that same
program, there was an item about a woman who'd won a huge lottery prize. The
first words out of her mouth were, "God has answered my prayers!" Forgive me
for not grasping the situation here: are we to believe that God ignored all
the prayers for the trapped miners because He was busy arranging for that
woman's lottery number to be chosen? And to the young mother: do you suppose
there weren't quite enough prayers, or your husband would still be alive,
and is that the miracle you cite? God allowed the miners to die because the
pleas for mercy directed at Him weren't properly phrased, while the lottery
winner's prayers were better formulated? Just what are this deity's
priorities?
--
Take a CPR class and get your community involved in an AED program.
.

User: "kathryn"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 12:30:02 PM
"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Huyvf.50299$7h7.36234@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...

From his column today.

And I must note here that when the first news came out on the NBC-TV Today
Show about the disaster, the governor of West Virginia began his comments
with "Here in West Virginia, we believe in miracles, and we're praying for
the miners." When the first report was made that all 13 had survived,
people were quick to attribute it to God. One miner's young wife, 27,
clutching her baby girl, said, "It just shows you enough prayers went out.
It's a miracle." And, President Bush said, "We send our prayers." On that
same program, there was an item about a woman who'd won a huge lottery
prize. The first words out of her mouth were, "God has answered my
prayers!" Forgive me for not grasping the situation here: are we to
believe that God ignored all the prayers for the trapped miners because He
was busy arranging for that woman's lottery number to be chosen? And to
the young mother: do you suppose there weren't quite enough prayers, or
your husband would still be alive, and is that the miracle you cite? God
allowed the miners to die because the pleas for mercy directed at Him
weren't properly phrased, while the lottery winner's prayers were better
formulated? Just what are this deity's priorities?

--
Take a CPR class and get your community involved in an AED program.

What fascinates me is that god is really keen to indiscrimately "punish" New
Orleans for the actions of consenting adults (in another part of the city
by all accounts), but is perfectly happy for soliders in other countries to
murder, rape and maim innocent folks at will. Unbelievably fucked up
priorities I'd say.
--
Kathryn
a.a # 2216
"We have toasters in this country...and they lie to us! Because it has
numbers from one to six and it lies to us!"
Eddie Izzard
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 06:58:57 PM
On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:30:02 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com>
wrote in alt.atheism


"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Huyvf.50299$7h7.36234@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...

From his column today.

And I must note here that when the first news came out on the NBC-TV Today
Show about the disaster, the governor of West Virginia began his comments
with "Here in West Virginia, we believe in miracles, and we're praying for
the miners." When the first report was made that all 13 had survived,
people were quick to attribute it to God. One miner's young wife, 27,
clutching her baby girl, said, "It just shows you enough prayers went out.
It's a miracle." And, President Bush said, "We send our prayers." On that
same program, there was an item about a woman who'd won a huge lottery
prize. The first words out of her mouth were, "God has answered my
prayers!" Forgive me for not grasping the situation here: are we to
believe that God ignored all the prayers for the trapped miners because He
was busy arranging for that woman's lottery number to be chosen? And to
the young mother: do you suppose there weren't quite enough prayers, or
your husband would still be alive, and is that the miracle you cite? God
allowed the miners to die because the pleas for mercy directed at Him
weren't properly phrased, while the lottery winner's prayers were better
formulated? Just what are this deity's priorities?

--
Take a CPR class and get your community involved in an AED program.



What fascinates me is that god is really keen to indiscrimately "punish" New
Orleans for the actions of consenting adults (in another part of the city
by all accounts),

the gay section of town was unscathed.

but is perfectly happy for soliders in other countries to
murder, rape and maim innocent folks at will. Unbelievably fucked up
priorities I'd say.

What else can you expect from someone that curses fig trees for not
bearing fruit out of season?
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
.

User: "duke"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 12:49:53 PM
On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:30:02 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:

What fascinates me is that god is really keen to indiscrimately "punish" New
Orleans for the actions of consenting adults (in another part of the city
by all accounts), but is perfectly happy for soliders in other countries to
murder, rape and maim innocent folks at will. Unbelievably fucked up
priorities I'd say.

Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
User: "DH"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 04:00:20 PM
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:4tetr1pqcn0kh6gg5e2m6kam8jfr779shk@4ax.com...

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:30:02 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com>

wrote:


What fascinates me is that god is really keen to indiscrimately "punish"

New

Orleans for the actions of consenting adults (in another part of the

city

by all accounts), but is perfectly happy for soliders in other countries

to

murder, rape and maim innocent folks at will. Unbelievably fucked up
priorities I'd say.


Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.

Then, please, explain it.

duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****

.
User: "kathryn"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 06:08:48 AM
"DH" <dh@stargate.com> wrote in message
news:43beea85$0$3035$6d36acad@roc.nntpserver.com...

"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:4tetr1pqcn0kh6gg5e2m6kam8jfr779shk@4ax.com...

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:30:02 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com>

wrote:


What fascinates me is that god is really keen to indiscrimately "punish"

New

Orleans for the actions of consenting adults (in another part of the

city

by all accounts), but is perfectly happy for soliders in other countries

to

murder, rape and maim innocent folks at will. Unbelievably fucked up
priorities I'd say.


Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.


Then, please, explain it.

duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****


Yes please explain Duke, why the actions of two consenting adults who are
harming NO ONE is more worthy of punishment than war mongers who slaughter
people in their thousands.
.

User: "Budikka666"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 06:29:23 PM
DH wrote:

"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message

Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.


Then, please, explain it.

He can't. He can't even explain how the Genesis global flood could
have occurred (so he has stated) at any time in the last 4.5 billion
years when there is zero evidence for it even 4,500 years aog when the
Bible dates it, and when the Bible specifically states there were
humans involved!
We came to the only possible conclusion - Noah was an ameba! It
explains everything.
Budikka
.


User: "erikc"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 03:19:50 PM
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:49:53 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:30:02 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:

What fascinates me is that god is really keen to indiscrimately "punish" New
Orleans for the actions of consenting adults (in another part of the city
by all accounts), but is perfectly happy for soliders in other countries to
murder, rape and maim innocent folks at will. Unbelievably fucked up
priorities I'd say.


Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.

How about non-existant priorities of a nonexistant deity.
Erikc (alt.atheist #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
BAAWA Knight (retired) | "The Truth against the World."
.

User: "JPG"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 04:07:00 PM
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:49:53 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:30:02 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:

What fascinates me is that god is really keen to indiscrimately "punish" New
Orleans for the actions of consenting adults (in another part of the city
by all accounts), but is perfectly happy for soliders in other countries to
murder, rape and maim innocent folks at will. Unbelievably fucked up
priorities I'd say.


Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.

Surely one of the stupidest, cretinous, moronic responses one is ever
likely to hear, even from a fundie idiot such as Puke.
You really ought to see a shrink, and all the other god-bleating
fuckers who believe as you do, for the sake of this Earth.


duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****

.
User: "Budikka666"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 06:26:30 PM
JPG wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:49:53 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.


Surely one of the stupidest, cretinous, moronic responses one is ever
likely to hear, even from a fundie idiot such as Puke.

You really ought to see a shrink, and all the other god-bleating
fuckers who believe as you do, for the sake of this Earth.

The best relevant quotation here is the one popularized by Harry
Leopold, which Duck ***** made in alt.atheism on January 5th, 2004, at
5:46 pm when he said, "I've heard myself say a lot of vocal things, but
I've never heard myself think."
This explains why he's such a gashole. He has no proof, no evidence,
not even an intelligent argument - he does not think because he cannot.
He's quite loco, and like a loco, he's stuck on a pair of narrow rails
and he has no clue he's on them, let alone how to get off. Worse, his
track leads to a dead end.
The best "evidence" of a god he was ever capable of producing was
*five* items he posted at http://tinyurl.com/dtkeq on April 18th 2004,
at 9:52am. Unfortunately for him, he was forced to admit two short
months later were nothing but blind belief (http://tinyurl.com/96k3x -
Jun 12th 2004 10:52am) after the massive pounding he got.
I used those same five items in a spoof edition of my "Why There is no
God" series (http://tinyurl.com/bz54w). I changed a word here and
there and all of his five "evidences" miraculously became evidence for
the non-existence of a god! Naturally I didn't count them in the total
of five hundred (at the last count) since they were so pathetic.
Duck *****'s comments aren't born of smarts, logic, rational or
evidence, they're born of desperation. His comments aren't aimed at
the material - they rarely are. He's incapable of having a rational
exchange on a topic. He spits out idiocy and runs away.
In this case, his comments are coming from nothing other than Christian
spite at me personally because I've kicked his ***** so many times it
hasn't ever recovered, he knows it, he can't do anything about it, and
this is all he has left!
It's axiomatic that he never documents or supports a single thing he
says, whereas the cowardice and lies of this pathetic hypocrite for
Christ have been fully documented on Usenet. His despicable and
unchristian behavior, and his slanderous unfounded charges (he thinks
turning the other cheek means mooning someone) are why he was
mass-plonked by pretty near the entire regular set on a.a.:
http://tinyurl.com/9gycg
It's a sign of how pathetic he is, how low he's sinking and how
desperate he's become since he was cut off, that he now has to beg for
atheists to talk to him by posting inane rants against us - this from
the guy who claims to be a christian, who claims to do unto others as
he would be done by, and who lies about turning the other cheek!
His cowardice in "debate" or even discussion is legendary:
1. http://tinyurl.com/4dyok
2. http://tinyurl.com/664yu
3. http://tinyurl.com/apenc
He claims he can run rings around anyone on scripture, but when he was
actually taken up directly on this claim:
http://tinyurl.com/3z47u
he ran away!
He has over 16 documented lies:
http://tinyurl.com/5zlzx
http://tinyurl.com/ablwm
He regularly demands people open discussions on his god, and when they
do, he runs away. I personally had him run from the *same topic* over
120 times in direct response to a challenge he made!
He dismally failed the simplest intelligence test imaginable:
http://tinyurl.com/7zm43
He has fifty questions he can't answer or daren't answer honestly:
http://tinyurl.com/ad89u
and fifty more:
http://tinyurl.com/9ky7y
In short, he's a waste of a human being.
Budikka
.
User: "Mike Painter"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 10:38:26 PM
Budikka666 wrote:

JPG wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:49:53 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.


Surely one of the stupidest, cretinous, moronic responses one is ever
likely to hear, even from a fundie idiot such as Puke.

You really ought to see a shrink, and all the other god-bleating
fuckers who believe as you do, for the sake of this Earth.



The best "evidence" of a god he was ever capable of producing was
*five* items he posted at http://tinyurl.com/dtkeq on April 18th 2004,
at 9:52am. Unfortunately for him, he was forced to admit two short
months later were nothing but blind belief (http://tinyurl.com/96k3x -
Jun 12th 2004 10:52am) after the massive pounding he got.

He has never backed down from #3
3. Medical science itself professes the human body to reflect a
"design with purpose". It consists of a central computer (brain)
supported by a fluid transfer system (blood) forced along by a pump
(heart), an energy conversion system (stomach and intestines), a waste
disposal system, an oxygen transfer system (lungs) that is required to
transfer necessary oxygen to the brain and to the body parts,
maintenance organs (spleen, gall bladder, etc), and a body salinity
(same as ocean water) exactly correct as necessary for transfer of
minute electrical signals to/from the brain to operate and control the
body.
To which I responded:
"Again I point out that the blood is not a fluid transfer system. The
circulatory system is the fluid transfer system and blood in the fluid that
is transferred.
The stomach and intestines are not energy conversion units they are exchange
systems. The difference between the two concepts would be known to an
engineer.
The lungs are not an oxygen transfer system, they are a gas exchange
system. The blood does the transfer. If they just exchanged oxygen life
would not exist as we know it. They exchange all gasses, which is an example
of crappy design. They should just exchange CO2 and O2 blocking the rest.
Body salinity varies and in general is not the same as sea water. The
salinity
of blood is 0.9% ,average salinity of the ocean is 3.5% and varies from
ocean to ocean.
"exactly correct" shows a lack of knowledge about transmissions of
electricity and the whole phrase seems to ignore the chemical side of such
transmissions."
He argues for the sake of arguing and has stated that he does not believe in
either a literal flood or in the existence of Adam and Eve.
Killfile him and post a standard request to anybody else that responds to
him.
It's what he deserves.
.
User: "Budikka666"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 06:26:13 AM
Mike Painter wrote:

Budikka666 wrote:

JPG wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:49:53 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.


Surely one of the stupidest, cretinous, moronic responses one is ever
likely to hear, even from a fundie idiot such as Puke.

You really ought to see a shrink, and all the other god-bleating
fuckers who believe as you do, for the sake of this Earth.




The best "evidence" of a god he was ever capable of producing was
*five* items he posted at http://tinyurl.com/dtkeq on April 18th 2004,
at 9:52am. Unfortunately for him, he was forced to admit two short
months later were nothing but blind belief (http://tinyurl.com/96k3x -
Jun 12th 2004 10:52am) after the massive pounding he got.


He has never backed down from #3
3. Medical science itself professes the human body to reflect a
"design with purpose". It consists of a central computer (brain)
supported by a fluid transfer system (blood) forced along by a pump
(heart), an energy conversion system (stomach and intestines), a waste
disposal system, an oxygen transfer system (lungs) that is required to
transfer necessary oxygen to the brain and to the body parts,
maintenance organs (spleen, gall bladder, etc), and a body salinity
(same as ocean water) exactly correct as necessary for transfer of
minute electrical signals to/from the brain to operate and control the
body.
To which I responded:

"Again I point out that the blood is not a fluid transfer system. The
circulatory system is the fluid transfer system and blood in the fluid that
is transferred.


The stomach and intestines are not energy conversion units they are exchange
systems. The difference between the two concepts would be known to an
engineer.


The lungs are not an oxygen transfer system, they are a gas exchange
system. The blood does the transfer. If they just exchanged oxygen life
would not exist as we know it. They exchange all gasses, which is an example
of crappy design. They should just exchange CO2 and O2 blocking the rest.

Body salinity varies and in general is not the same as sea water. The
salinity
of blood is 0.9% ,average salinity of the ocean is 3.5% and varies from
ocean to ocean.
"exactly correct" shows a lack of knowledge about transmissions of
electricity and the whole phrase seems to ignore the chemical side of such
transmissions."

I remember reading this response - it was a good one.

He argues for the sake of arguing and has stated that he does not believe in
either a literal flood or in the existence of Adam and Eve.

He's also contradictorily stated that he can argue either side of the
flood debate! Definitely demonstrates what a comprehensive moron he
is.

Killfile him and post a standard request to anybody else that responds to
him.

It's what he deserves.

I simply don't respond to him any more. I didn't killfile him,
however. I keep track of his stuff so that once in a while I can
respond to those who respond to him with a standard list of his lies,
stupidty, hypocrisy and cowardice, and point them to the "mass
plonking' thread.
B.
.


User: "bob young"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 12:00:03 AM
Budikka666 wrote:

JPG wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:49:53 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.


Surely one of the stupidest, cretinous, moronic responses one is ever
likely to hear, even from a fundie idiot such as Puke.

You really ought to see a shrink, and all the other god-bleating
fuckers who believe as you do, for the sake of this Earth.


The best relevant quotation here is the one popularized by Harry
Leopold, which Duck ***** made in alt.atheism on January 5th, 2004, at
5:46 pm when he said, "I've heard myself say a lot of vocal things, but
I've never heard myself think."

This explains why he's such a gashole. He has no proof, no evidence,
not even an intelligent argument - he does not think because he cannot.
He's quite loco, and like a loco, he's stuck on a pair of narrow rails
and he has no clue he's on them, let alone how to get off. Worse, his
track leads to a dead end.

The best "evidence" of a god he was ever capable of producing was
*five* items he posted at http://tinyurl.com/dtkeq on April 18th 2004,
at 9:52am. Unfortunately for him, he was forced to admit two short
months later were nothing but blind belief (http://tinyurl.com/96k3x -
Jun 12th 2004 10:52am) after the massive pounding he got.

I used those same five items in a spoof edition of my "Why There is no
God" series (http://tinyurl.com/bz54w). I changed a word here and
there and all of his five "evidences" miraculously became evidence for
the non-existence of a god! Naturally I didn't count them in the total
of five hundred (at the last count) since they were so pathetic.

Duck *****'s comments aren't born of smarts, logic, rational or
evidence, they're born of desperation. His comments aren't aimed at
the material - they rarely are. He's incapable of having a rational
exchange on a topic. He spits out idiocy and runs away.

In this case, his comments are coming from nothing other than Christian
spite at me personally because I've kicked his ***** so many times it
hasn't ever recovered, he knows it, he can't do anything about it, and
this is all he has left!

It's axiomatic that he never documents or supports a single thing he
says, whereas the cowardice and lies of this pathetic hypocrite for
Christ have been fully documented on Usenet. His despicable and
unchristian behavior, and his slanderous unfounded charges (he thinks
turning the other cheek means mooning someone) are why he was
mass-plonked by pretty near the entire regular set on a.a.:
http://tinyurl.com/9gycg

It's a sign of how pathetic he is, how low he's sinking and how
desperate he's become since he was cut off, that he now has to beg for
atheists to talk to him by posting inane rants against us - this from
the guy who claims to be a christian, who claims to do unto others as
he would be done by, and who lies about turning the other cheek!

His cowardice in "debate" or even discussion is legendary:
1. http://tinyurl.com/4dyok
2. http://tinyurl.com/664yu
3. http://tinyurl.com/apenc

He claims he can run rings around anyone on scripture, but when he was
actually taken up directly on this claim:
http://tinyurl.com/3z47u
he ran away!

He has over 16 documented lies:
http://tinyurl.com/5zlzx
http://tinyurl.com/ablwm

He regularly demands people open discussions on his god, and when they
do, he runs away. I personally had him run from the *same topic* over
120 times in direct response to a challenge he made!

He dismally failed the simplest intelligence test imaginable:
http://tinyurl.com/7zm43

He has fifty questions he can't answer or daren't answer honestly:
http://tinyurl.com/ad89u
and fifty more:
http://tinyurl.com/9ky7y

In short, he's a waste of a human being.

Budikka

That's one hell of a post Bud, [if i may use the word without proving
anything!]
I wonder if your logic will be refuted, item by item.
Can't wait.
Bob
PS reminds me of a fundie post a while back when he got frustrated with
his back to the wall
"What do most people say when something bad suddenly happens" He screamed
"OH God" was the reply to his own question
"So that proves there's he god " he said
"Otherwise pepole wouldn't say that"
It does all become rather pathetic at times.
"
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 12:43:22 AM
On 7 Jan 2006 00:00:03 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:



Budikka666 wrote:

JPG wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:49:53 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.


Surely one of the stupidest, cretinous, moronic responses one is ever
likely to hear, even from a fundie idiot such as Puke.

You really ought to see a shrink, and all the other god-bleating
fuckers who believe as you do, for the sake of this Earth.


The best relevant quotation here is the one popularized by Harry
Leopold, which Duck ***** made in alt.atheism on January 5th, 2004, at
5:46 pm when he said, "I've heard myself say a lot of vocal things, but
I've never heard myself think."

This explains why he's such a gashole. He has no proof, no evidence,
not even an intelligent argument - he does not think because he cannot.
He's quite loco, and like a loco, he's stuck on a pair of narrow rails
and he has no clue he's on them, let alone how to get off. Worse, his
track leads to a dead end.

The best "evidence" of a god he was ever capable of producing was
*five* items he posted at http://tinyurl.com/dtkeq on April 18th 2004,
at 9:52am. Unfortunately for him, he was forced to admit two short
months later were nothing but blind belief (http://tinyurl.com/96k3x -
Jun 12th 2004 10:52am) after the massive pounding he got.

I used those same five items in a spoof edition of my "Why There is no
God" series (http://tinyurl.com/bz54w). I changed a word here and
there and all of his five "evidences" miraculously became evidence for
the non-existence of a god! Naturally I didn't count them in the total
of five hundred (at the last count) since they were so pathetic.

Duck *****'s comments aren't born of smarts, logic, rational or
evidence, they're born of desperation. His comments aren't aimed at
the material - they rarely are. He's incapable of having a rational
exchange on a topic. He spits out idiocy and runs away.

In this case, his comments are coming from nothing other than Christian
spite at me personally because I've kicked his ***** so many times it
hasn't ever recovered, he knows it, he can't do anything about it, and
this is all he has left!

It's axiomatic that he never documents or supports a single thing he
says, whereas the cowardice and lies of this pathetic hypocrite for
Christ have been fully documented on Usenet. His despicable and
unchristian behavior, and his slanderous unfounded charges (he thinks
turning the other cheek means mooning someone) are why he was
mass-plonked by pretty near the entire regular set on a.a.:
http://tinyurl.com/9gycg

It's a sign of how pathetic he is, how low he's sinking and how
desperate he's become since he was cut off, that he now has to beg for
atheists to talk to him by posting inane rants against us - this from
the guy who claims to be a christian, who claims to do unto others as
he would be done by, and who lies about turning the other cheek!

His cowardice in "debate" or even discussion is legendary:
1. http://tinyurl.com/4dyok
2. http://tinyurl.com/664yu
3. http://tinyurl.com/apenc

He claims he can run rings around anyone on scripture, but when he was
actually taken up directly on this claim:
http://tinyurl.com/3z47u
he ran away!

He has over 16 documented lies:
http://tinyurl.com/5zlzx
http://tinyurl.com/ablwm

He regularly demands people open discussions on his god, and when they
do, he runs away. I personally had him run from the *same topic* over
120 times in direct response to a challenge he made!

He dismally failed the simplest intelligence test imaginable:
http://tinyurl.com/7zm43

He has fifty questions he can't answer or daren't answer honestly:
http://tinyurl.com/ad89u
and fifty more:
http://tinyurl.com/9ky7y

In short, he's a waste of a human being.

Budikka


That's one hell of a post Bud, [if i may use the word without proving
anything!]

I wonder if your logic will be refuted, item by item.

Can't wait.

Bob

PS reminds me of a fundie post a while back when he got frustrated with
his back to the wall

"What do most people say when something bad suddenly happens" He screamed

"OH God" was the reply to his own question

"So that proves there's he god " he said

"Otherwise pepole wouldn't say that"

It does all become rather pathetic at times.

So, if in moments of crises, I shouted:
"I have 1 million bucks in my bank account!!",
that would make it real, and true?
Fundy logic could be some use after all!
It works for Benny Hinn, and Pat Robertson.
.

User: "Budikka666"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 06:31:54 AM
bob young wrote:

Budikka666 wrote:

JPG wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:49:53 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.


Surely one of the stupidest, cretinous, moronic responses one is ever
likely to hear, even from a fundie idiot such as Puke.

You really ought to see a shrink, and all the other god-bleating
fuckers who believe as you do, for the sake of this Earth.


The best relevant quotation here is the one popularized by Harry
Leopold, which Duck ***** made in alt.atheism on January 5th, 2004, at
5:46 pm when he said, "I've heard myself say a lot of vocal things, but
I've never heard myself think."

This explains why he's such a gashole. He has no proof, no evidence,
not even an intelligent argument - he does not think because he cannot.
He's quite loco, and like a loco, he's stuck on a pair of narrow rails
and he has no clue he's on them, let alone how to get off. Worse, his
track leads to a dead end.

The best "evidence" of a god he was ever capable of producing was
*five* items he posted at http://tinyurl.com/dtkeq on April 18th 2004,
at 9:52am. Unfortunately for him, he was forced to admit two short
months later were nothing but blind belief (http://tinyurl.com/96k3x -
Jun 12th 2004 10:52am) after the massive pounding he got.

I used those same five items in a spoof edition of my "Why There is no
God" series (http://tinyurl.com/bz54w). I changed a word here and
there and all of his five "evidences" miraculously became evidence for
the non-existence of a god! Naturally I didn't count them in the total
of five hundred (at the last count) since they were so pathetic.

Duck *****'s comments aren't born of smarts, logic, rational or
evidence, they're born of desperation. His comments aren't aimed at
the material - they rarely are. He's incapable of having a rational
exchange on a topic. He spits out idiocy and runs away.

In this case, his comments are coming from nothing other than Christian
spite at me personally because I've kicked his ***** so many times it
hasn't ever recovered, he knows it, he can't do anything about it, and
this is all he has left!

It's axiomatic that he never documents or supports a single thing he
says, whereas the cowardice and lies of this pathetic hypocrite for
Christ have been fully documented on Usenet. His despicable and
unchristian behavior, and his slanderous unfounded charges (he thinks
turning the other cheek means mooning someone) are why he was
mass-plonked by pretty near the entire regular set on a.a.:
http://tinyurl.com/9gycg

It's a sign of how pathetic he is, how low he's sinking and how
desperate he's become since he was cut off, that he now has to beg for
atheists to talk to him by posting inane rants against us - this from
the guy who claims to be a christian, who claims to do unto others as
he would be done by, and who lies about turning the other cheek!

His cowardice in "debate" or even discussion is legendary:
1. http://tinyurl.com/4dyok
2. http://tinyurl.com/664yu
3. http://tinyurl.com/apenc

He claims he can run rings around anyone on scripture, but when he was
actually taken up directly on this claim:
http://tinyurl.com/3z47u
he ran away!

He has over 16 documented lies:
http://tinyurl.com/5zlzx
http://tinyurl.com/ablwm

He regularly demands people open discussions on his god, and when they
do, he runs away. I personally had him run from the *same topic* over
120 times in direct response to a challenge he made!

He dismally failed the simplest intelligence test imaginable:
http://tinyurl.com/7zm43

He has fifty questions he can't answer or daren't answer honestly:
http://tinyurl.com/ad89u
and fifty more:
http://tinyurl.com/9ky7y

In short, he's a waste of a human being.

Budikka


That's one hell of a post Bud, [if i may use the word without proving
anything!]

I wonder if your logic will be refuted, item by item.

Can't wait.

I fear you'll have to! He's been running from me for some considerable
time, which is how I was able to document his cowardice, lies,
hypocrisy and stupdity. But I gave up replying to him in response to
Doug Berry's call for a mass-plonking back in September last year. By
that time I had pretty much humiliated and embarrassed him as far as it
was possible to go and it wasn't much fun any more any way! Besides,
in that same month, Pastor Dave reared his ugly head again with his "no
proof of macroevolution" lie, so it was time to move on!

PS reminds me of a fundie post a while back when he got frustrated with
his back to the wall

"What do most people say when something bad suddenly happens" He screamed

"OH God" was the reply to his own question

"So that proves there's he god " he said

"Otherwise pepole wouldn't say that"

It does all become rather pathetic at times.

LoL! That's why your comment about "logic" is so apropos!
Budikka
.



User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 08:16:16 PM
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 22:07:00 +0000, JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:49:53 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:30:02 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:

What fascinates me is that god is really keen to indiscrimately "punish" New
Orleans for the actions of consenting adults (in another part of the city
by all accounts), but is perfectly happy for soliders in other countries to
murder, rape and maim innocent folks at will. Unbelievably fucked up
priorities I'd say.


Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.


Surely one of the stupidest, cretinous, moronic responses one is ever
likely to hear, even from a fundie idiot such as Puke.

You really ought to see a shrink, and all the other god-bleating
fuckers who believe as you do, for the sake of this Earth.

Rather than a shrink, I suggest a taxidermist.
A win-win result would be assured,
and near-as-damnit instantaneous.
.


User: "bob young"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 11:52:10 PM
duke wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:30:02 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:

What fascinates me is that god is really keen to indiscrimately "punish" New
Orleans for the actions of consenting adults (in another part of the city
by all accounts), but is perfectly happy for soliders in other countries to
murder, rape and maim innocent folks at will. Unbelievably fucked up
priorities I'd say.


Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.

These bland meaningless comments from religonists are a total bore.
Duke, explain please. Two posters [and me] are waiting for an explanation as to
the actions of your god, we are not waiting fror banal meaningless comments.
Bob
PS there are times when I am so pleased I am not a religionist here, trying to
justify my myths.



duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****

.
User: "MarkA"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 04:00:30 PM
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 23:52:10 -0600, bob young wrote:



duke wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:30:02 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:

What fascinates me is that god is really keen to indiscrimately "punish" New
Orleans for the actions of consenting adults (in another part of the city
by all accounts), but is perfectly happy for soliders in other countries to
murder, rape and maim innocent folks at will. Unbelievably fucked up
priorities I'd say.


Unless you don't understand, which fully appears to be the case.


These bland meaningless comments from religonists are a total bore.

Duke, explain please. Two posters [and me] are waiting for an explanation as to
the actions of your god, we are not waiting fror banal meaningless comments.

The explanation is perfectly obvious: God exists, God is all-powerful and
all-knowing, and God is infinitely evil. He allows some good to exist in
the world, for reasons that we cannot fully understand.
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
.




User: "Mike Painter"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 12:41:15 PM
I came across this NY Times article right after posting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/06/national/06cnd-survivor.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5094&en=a1e3c8c93f645187&hp&ex=1136610000&partner=homepage
It talks about the attempts to save the survivors life.
Medicine - and luck will be the deciding factor, but if he lives they people
will cry miracle and thank their god.
This is the same god that could have averted the disaster.
This is the same god that will allow more money to be spent on his recovery
than the man could ever hope to make in a lifetime digging coal.
.
User: "duke"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 12:51:53 PM
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:41:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Medicine - and luck will be the deciding factor, but if he lives they people
will cry miracle and thank their god.
This is the same god that could have averted the disaster.
This is the same god that will allow more money to be spent on his recovery
than the man could ever hope to make in a lifetime digging coal.

Now mikey, you know good and well from my many lectures to you that God does not
routinely interfere in our lives. There are clearly some cases that he has of
course. But we told God that we, mankind, wanted to run things, so here we are
doing a lousy job.

duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
User: "Lindemann"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 01:10:26 PM
Oh duke? and which cases are those?
.

User: "erikc"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 03:21:37 PM
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:51:53 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:41:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Medicine - and luck will be the deciding factor, but if he lives they people
will cry miracle and thank their god.


This is the same god that could have averted the disaster.
This is the same god that will allow more money to be spent on his recovery
than the man could ever hope to make in a lifetime digging coal.


Now mikey, you know good and well from my many lectures to you that God does not
routinely interfere in our lives. There are clearly some cases that he has of
course. But we told God that we, mankind, wanted to run things, so here we are
doing a lousy job.

***** you are the most ignorant ***** ever to draw breath. And a methane
breather at that.
Erikc (alt.atheist #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
BAAWA Knight (retired) | "The Truth against the World."
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 06:34:16 PM
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net>


On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:41:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Medicine - and luck will be the deciding factor, but if he lives they people
will cry miracle and thank their god.


This is the same god that could have averted the disaster.
This is the same god that will allow more money to be spent on his recovery
than the man could ever hope to make in a lifetime digging coal.


Now mikey, you know good and well from my many lectures to you that God does not
routinely interfere in our lives. There are clearly some cases that he has of
course. But we told God that we, mankind, wanted to run things, so here we are
doing a lousy job.

Are you saying that EVERYONE in the world has told God
that they want to run things?
Or are you saying that some don't tell God that they want to run things,
and so bad things (dying, for example) don't happen to these people?
Or are you just saying that God lets these good folks -- the ones
who have not taken it upon themselves to run things -- that He lets them
suffer anyhow, because of what other people have chosen?
-- cary
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 06:46:36 AM
Cary Kittrell wrote:

duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net>


On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:41:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Medicine - and luck will be the deciding factor, but if he lives they people
will cry miracle and thank their god.


This is the same god that could have averted the disaster.
This is the same god that will allow more money to be spent on his recovery
than the man could ever hope to make in a lifetime digging coal.




Now mikey, you know good and well from my many lectures to you that God does not
routinely interfere in our lives. There are clearly some cases that he has of
course. But we told God that we, mankind, wanted to run things, so here we are
doing a lousy job.




Are you saying that EVERYONE in the world has told God
that they want to run things?

Or are you saying that some don't tell God that they want to run things,
and so bad things (dying, for example) don't happen to these people?

Or are you just saying that God lets these good folks -- the ones
who have not taken it upon themselves to run things -- that He lets them
suffer anyhow, because of what other people have chosen?



-- cary

I think what he's saying (with regard to the mine accident) is that,
instead of trying to "run things" by constructing coal mines, the truly
faithful should have remained shivering, out in the cold, waiting for
God to provide their heat and electricity by way of magic.
Dave
.
User: "kathryn"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 07:12:44 AM
<dgenglish@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136637996.449087.323640@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


Cary Kittrell wrote:

duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net>


On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:41:15 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Medicine - and luck will be the deciding factor, but if he lives they
people
will cry miracle and thank their god.


This is the same god that could have averted the disaster.
This is the same god that will allow more money to be spent on his
recovery
than the man could ever hope to make in a lifetime digging coal.




Now mikey, you know good and well from my many lectures to you that God
does not
routinely interfere in our lives. There are clearly some cases that he
has of
course. But we told God that we, mankind, wanted to run things, so
here we are
doing a lousy job.




Are you saying that EVERYONE in the world has told God
that they want to run things?

Or are you saying that some don't tell God that they want to run things,
and so bad things (dying, for example) don't happen to these people?

Or are you just saying that God lets these good folks -- the ones
who have not taken it upon themselves to run things -- that He lets them
suffer anyhow, because of what other people have chosen?



-- cary


I think what he's saying (with regard to the mine accident) is that,
instead of trying to "run things" by constructing coal mines, the truly
faithful should have remained shivering, out in the cold, waiting for
God to provide their heat and electricity by way of magic.

Dave

Well apparently he's quite obliging with food - mana and all that
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 07:31:14 PM
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 13:12:44 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com>
wrote in alt.atheism


<dgenglish@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136637996.449087.323640@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


Cary Kittrell wrote:

duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net>

[]

I think what he's saying (with regard to the mine accident) is that,
instead of trying to "run things" by constructing coal mines, the truly
faithful should have remained shivering, out in the cold, waiting for
God to provide their heat and electricity by way of magic.

Dave

Well apparently he's quite obliging with food - mana and all that

Tesco, Kroger, Albertson's and the like are 'God,' since stores are
where most Christians get their mana-for a price.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
.

User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 07:30:09 PM
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 13:12:44 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <nospam@here.com>
wrote:


<dgenglish@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136637996.449087.323640@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


Cary Kittrell wrote:

duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net>


On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:41:15 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Medicine - and luck will be the deciding factor, but if he lives they
people
will cry miracle and thank their god.


This is the same god that could have averted the disaster.
This is the same god that will allow more money to be spent on his
recovery
than the man could ever hope to make in a lifetime digging coal.




Now mikey, you know good and well from my many lectures to you that God
does not
routinely interfere in our lives. There are clearly some cases that he
has of
course. But we told God that we, mankind, wanted to run things, so
here we are
doing a lousy job.




Are you saying that EVERYONE in the world has told God
that they want to run things?

Or are you saying that some don't tell God that they want to run things,
and so bad things (dying, for example) don't happen to these people?

Or are you just saying that God lets these good folks -- the ones
who have not taken it upon themselves to run things -- that He lets them
suffer anyhow, because of what other people have chosen?



-- cary


I think what he's saying (with regard to the mine accident) is that,
instead of trying to "run things" by constructing coal mines, the truly
faithful should have remained shivering, out in the cold, waiting for
God to provide their heat and electricity by way of magic.

Dave

Well apparently he's quite obliging with food - mana and all that

And no lack of water, on the odd occassion!
.




User: "655321"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 06 Jan 2006 06:11:37 PM
duke wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:41:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:


Medicine - and luck will be the deciding factor, but if he lives they people
will cry miracle and thank their god.



This is the same god that could have averted the disaster.
This is the same god that will allow more money to be spent on his recovery
than the man could ever hope to make in a lifetime digging coal.



Now mikey, you know good and well from my many lectures

Lectures?
LECTURES?
HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAHAHAHAAAA!

to you that God does not
routinely interfere in our lives.

So he doesn't interfere. He didn't keep the remaining miner alive.

There are clearly some cases that he has of
course.

Ah, so he *does* interfere. He *did* keep the remaining miner alive.

But we told God

Did I miss that meeting? I don't remember being polled on this
question. Was I home sick when God's survey-takers were standing in
front of the grocery stores?

that we, mankind, wanted to run things, so here we are
doing a lousy job.

Except in the cases when he actually interferes directly. And in those
cases *he* is dong the lousy job.
Or is the "job" only not lousy when he does interfere?
It clearly makes no sense to take notes at your "lectures." The paper
would catch fire due to the internal conflict of ideas.

duke
*****
"Self-contradiction is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****

That was one smart cult-leader, that Paul VI guy.
655321
.
User: "Budikka666"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 06:37:19 AM
655321 wrote:

duke wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:41:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:


Medicine - and luck will be the deciding factor, but if he lives they people
will cry miracle and thank their god.



This is the same god that could have averted the disaster.
This is the same god that will allow more money to be spent on his recovery
than the man could ever hope to make in a lifetime digging coal.



Now mikey, you know good and well from my many lectures


Lectures?

LECTURES?

HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAHAHAHAAAA!

to you that God does not
routinely interfere in our lives.


So he doesn't interfere. He didn't keep the remaining miner alive.

He he - so much for those blind idiots who think they have a personal
relationship with this god! LoL!
"Hey, God, will you help me decide which course of action I need to
take here?"
- "Sorry, I don't interfere. You're on your own!".

There are clearly some cases that he has of
course.


Ah, so he *does* interfere. He *did* keep the remaining miner alive.

But we told God


Did I miss that meeting? I don't remember being polled on this
question. Was I home sick when God's survey-takers were standing in
front of the grocery stores?

LoL! He talks like he actually knows as much as this god, doesn't he?
Isn't that *blasphemy*?

that we, mankind, wanted to run things, so here we are
doing a lousy job.


Except in the cases when he actually interferes directly. And in those
cases *he* is dong the lousy job.

Or is the "job" only not lousy when he does interfere?

It clearly makes no sense to take notes at your "lectures." The paper
would catch fire due to the internal conflict of ideas.

You nailed it.
Budikka
.
User: "bob young"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 08 Jan 2006 02:45:05 AM
Budikka666 wrote:

655321 wrote:

duke wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:41:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:


Medicine - and luck will be the deciding factor, but if he lives they people
will cry miracle and thank their god.



This is the same god that could have averted the disaster.
This is the same god that will allow more money to be spent on his recovery
than the man could ever hope to make in a lifetime digging coal.



Now mikey, you know good and well from my many lectures


Lectures?

LECTURES?

HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAHAHAHAAAA!

to you that God does not
routinely interfere in our lives.


So he doesn't interfere. He didn't keep the remaining miner alive.


He he - so much for those blind idiots who think they have a personal
relationship with this god! LoL!

"Hey, God, will you help me decide which course of action I need to
take here?"
- "Sorry, I don't interfere. You're on your own!".

There are clearly some cases that he has of
course.


Ah, so he *does* interfere. He *did* keep the remaining miner alive.

But we told God


Did I miss that meeting? I don't remember being polled on this
question. Was I home sick when God's survey-takers were standing in
front of the grocery stores?


LoL! He talks like he actually knows as much as this god, doesn't he?
Isn't that *blasphemy*?

Since all gods are man made it is more like arrogance



that we, mankind, wanted to run things, so here we are
doing a lousy job.


Except in the cases when he actually interferes directly. And in those
cases *he* is dong the lousy job.

Or is the "job" only not lousy when he does interfere?

It clearly makes no sense to take notes at your "lectures." The paper
would catch fire due to the internal conflict of ideas.


You nailed it.

Budikka

.



User: "bob young"

Title: Re: Randi explains "Fundie coal miner miracle" 07 Jan 2006 12:02:11 AM
duke wrote:

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:41:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Medicine - and luck will be the deciding factor, but if he lives they people
will cry miracle and thank their god.


This is the same god that could have averted the disaster.
This is the same god that will allow more money to be spent on his recovery
than the man could ever hope to make in a lifetime digging coal.


Now mikey, you know good and well from my many lectures to you that God does not
routinely interfere in our lives. There are clearly some cases that he has of
course. But we told God that we, mankind, wanted to run things, so here we are
doing a lousy job.

.....and it don't come sillier than that !




duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****

.




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DNA & Miracle cures
 

NEWER

pg.3585     pg.2749     pg.2106     pg.1612     pg.1232     pg.940     pg.716     pg.544     pg.412     pg.311     pg.234     pg.175     pg.130     pg.96     pg.70     pg.50     pg.35     pg.24     pg.16     pg.10     pg.6     pg.3     pg.1

OLDER