Re: (~) When was Jesus Born?



 Religions > Atheism > Re: (~) When was Jesus Born?

LINK TO THIS PAGE  


rating :  0   |  0


  Page 2 of 2

1

 

2

 
Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Bill"
Date: 23 Dec 2004 10:45:27 AM
Object: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born?
Why on earth do people base their celebrations and whole lives on
unsubstantiated fairy tales like this?
We don't know when, (within five years ) that Christ was born. There is not
any hard evidence that he actually existed. The only evidence is tales in
the Bibles and the original texts of the Bibles no longer exist.
In short the whole Jesus story is based on 2,000 year old documents that are
copies of no longer existent originals.
There is no proof or objective evidence that these collections of ancient
documents called the Bible are accurate history. As a minimum they are
abstruse mixture of history, allegories, fables, folk tales and contain many
contradictions.
God is claimed to be all powerful and creator of the heavens and the earth
and every thing in it.
Why did God use forty errant men to write the Bibles many years before and
after the death of Jesus? None were written extent during Jesus's life.
Archaeological evidence shows that man has existed on earth for
approximately 150,000 years. Why did god wait almost 150,000 years to
communicate with his flock and then only to a very small fraction of mankind
through forty errant men?
If Jesus and any god exists, why doesn't he communicate his existence,
wishes and demands clearly and directly via satellite TV or more effective
communication systems?
Happy holidays!
--
Bill
"Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk> wrote in
message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-2312040901330001@h-68-164-226-201.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...

(~) When was Jesus Born?

Best Guess: September 29, 5 B.C.

Want the details? Read more below.

Biblical scholars readily tell us that it was most likely NOT on
December 25th, A.D. 0. Why?

When were shepherds in the fields?

Israeli meteorologists tracked December weather patterns for many
years and concluded that the climate in Israel has been essentially
constant for at least the last 2,000 years. The Interpreter's Dictionary
of the Bible states that, "broadly speaking, weather phenomena and
climatic conditions as pictured in the Bible correspond with conditions as
observed today" (R.B.Y. Scott, Vol. 3, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1962, p.
625).

The temperature in the area of Bethlehem in December averages
around 44 degrees Fahrenheit (7 degrees Celsius) but can drop to well
below freezing, especially at night. Describing the weather there, Sara
Ruhin, chief of the Israeli weather service, noted in a 1990 press release
that the area has three months of frost: December with 29 F. [minus 1.6
C.]; January with 30 F. [minus 1.1 C.] and February with 32 F. [0 C.].

Snow is common for two or three days in Jerusalem and nearby
Bethlehem in December and January. These were the winter months of
increased precipitation in Christ's time, when the roads became
practically unusable and people stayed mostly indoors.

This is important evidence to disprove a December date for Christ's birth.
Note that, at the time of Christ's birth, the shepherds tended their
flocks in the fields at night. "Now there were in the same country
shepherds living out in the fields," wrote one Gospel writer, "keeping
watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). A common practice of
shepherds was keeping their flocks in the field from April to October, but
in the cold and rainy winter months they took their flocks back home and
sheltered them.

One commentary admits that, "as these shepherds had not yet brought home
their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet
commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of
December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been
born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by
night. On this very ground the nativity in December should be given up.
The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact,
which casts considerable light upon this disputed point" (Adam Clarke's
Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, note on Luke 2:8).

Another study source agrees: "These humble pastoral folk are out in the
field at night with their flocka feature of the story which would argue
against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would
not have permitted it" (The Interpreter's One-Volume
Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1971, note on Luke 2:4-7).

The Companion Bible, Appendix 179 says:

Shepherds and their flocks would not be found "abiding" (Gr.
agrauleo) in the open fields at night in December (Tebeth), for the
paramount reason that there would be no pasturage at that time. It was the
custom then (as now) to withdraw the flocks during the
month Marchesven (Oct.-Nov.) from the open districts and house
them for the winter.

The census described by Luke

Other evidence arguing against a December birth of Jesus is the Roman
census recorded by Luke. "And it came to pass in those days that a decree
went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered...
So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city. Joseph also went
up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of
David, which is called Bethlehem..., to be registered with Mary, his
betrothed wife, who was with child. So it was, that while they were there,
the days were completed for her to be delivered. And she brought forth her
firstborn Son..." (Luke 2:1-7).

The Roman and Judean rulers knew that taking a census in winter
would have been impractical and unpopular. Generally a census would take
place after the harvest season, around September or October, when it would
not seriously affect the economy, the weather was good and the roads were
still dry enough to allow easy travel. According to the normal dates for
the census, this would probably be the season of Christ's birth.

One author states that this census "could hardly have been at that season
[December 25], however, for such a time would surely not have been chosen
by the authorities for a public enrollment, which
necessitated the population's traveling from all parts to their natal
districts, storms and rain making journeys both unsafe and unpleasant in
winter, except in specially favorable years" ("Christmas at
Bethlehem," Holy-Days and Holidays, Cunningham Geikie).

Luke's account of the census argues strongly against a December date for
Christ's birth. For such an agrarian society, an autumn
post-harvest census was much more likely.

The year of Christ's birth

Jesus wasn't born in A.D. 0 either. In 525 Pope John I commissioned the
scholar Dionysius Exiguus to establish a feast calendar for the Church..
Dionysius also estimated the year of Christ's birth based upon the
founding of the city of Rome. Unfortunately because of insufficient
historical data he arrived at a date at least a few years later than the
actual event.

The Gospels record Jesus' birth as occurring during the reign of Herod the
Great. Herod's death is recorded by Jewish historian Flavius
Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus, Book 17, Chpt. 8) and
occurred in the spring of 4 B.C. (New Testament History, F.F. Bruce,
Anchor Books, p.23). Therefore, Christ's birth had to take place at least
four years before the traditional date!

Jesus was not born on December 25, A.D. 0. [Actually there is no such year
as A.D. 0. Our calendar jumps from 1 B.C. to A.D. 1 with no
intervening year of zero.]

The celebration of Christ's birth in the the early church

In the first 200 years of Christian history, no mention is made of the
calendar date of Jesus' birth. Not until the year 336 do we find the first
mention of a celebration of His birth.

Why this omission? In the case of the Church fathers, the reason is that,
during the three centuries after Christ's life on earth, the event
considered most worthy of commemoration was the date of His death. In
comparison, the date of His birth was considered insignificant. As the
Encyclopedia Americana explains, "Christmas... was, according to
many authorities, not celebrated in the first centuries of the Christian
church, as the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of
remarkable persons rather than their birth..." (1944 edition,
"Christmas").

Speculation on the proper date began in the 3rd and 4th centuries, when
the idea of fixing Christ's birthday started. Quite a controversy arose
among Church leaders. Some were opposed to such a celebration. Origen
(185-254) strongly recommended against such an innovation. "In the
Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great
banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners who make great rejoicings over
the day in which they were born into this world" (Catholic
Encyclopedia, 1908 edition, Vol. 3, p. 724, "Natal Day").

During this time eight specific dates during six different months were
proposed by various groups. December 25, although one of the last dates to
be proposed, was the one finally accepted by the leadership of the Western
church.

A summary of the debate on the dates of Christ's birth appears in The
Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church: "Though speculation as to the
time of year of Christ's birth dates from the early 3rd century, Clement
of Alexandria suggesting the 20th of May, the celebration of the
anniversary does not appear to have been general till the later 4th
century. The earliest mention of the observance on Dec. 25th is in the
Philocalian Calendar, representing Roman practice of the year 336. This
date was probably chosen to oppose the feast of the Natalis Solis Invicti
[nativity of the unconquerable sun] by the celebration of the birth of the
'Sun of Righteousness' and its observance in the West, seems to have
spread from Rome" (1983 edition, Oxford University Press, New York, 1983,
p. 280, "Christmas").

Around 200, when Clement of Alexandria mentioned the speculations
about Christ's birthday, he said nothing about a celebration on that day.
He casually reported the various ideas extant at that time: "And there are
those who have determined not only the year of our Lord's birth, but also
the day..., the 25th day of Pachon... Furthermore, others say that He was
born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi" ("The Stromata, or Miscellanies,"
The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, 1986, p. 333).

Later, in 243, the official feast calendar of the time, De Pascha
Computus, places the date of Christ's birth as March 28. Other dates
suggested were April 2 and November 18. Meanwhile, in the East,
January 6 was chosen, a date the Greeks had celebrated as the birth of the
god Dionysus and the Egyptians as the birth of the god Osiris. Although
pagans commonly celebrated the birthdays of their gods, in the Bible a
birthday is never celebrated to the true God (who, of course, had no birth
or day of origin).

December 25 popularized

In Rome December 25 was made popular by Pope Liberius in 354 and
became the rule in the West in 435 when the first "Christ mass" was
officiated by Pope Sixtus III. This coincided with the date of a
celebration by the Romans to their primary god, the Sun, and to Mithras, a
popular Persian sun god supposedly born on the same day. The Roman
Catholic writer Mario Righetti candidly admits that, "to facilitate the
acceptance of the faith by the pagan masses, the Church of Rome found it
convenient to institute the 25th of December as the feast of the birth of
Christ to divert them from the pagan feast, celebrated on the same day in
honor of the 'Invincible Sun' Mithras, the conqueror of darkness" (Manual
of Liturgical History, 1955, Vol. 2, p. 67).

Protestant historian Henry Chadwick sums up the controversy:
"Moreover, early in the fourth century there begins in the West (where
first and by whom is not known) the celebration of December 25th, the
birthday of the Sun-god at the winter solstice, as the date for the
nativity of Christ. How easy it was for Christianity and solar religion to
become entangled at the popular level is strikingly illustrated by a
mid-fifth century sermon of Pope Leo the Great, rebuking his
over-cautious flock for paying reverence to the Sun on the steps of St.
Peter's before turning their back on it to worship inside the
westward-facing basilica" (The Early Church, Penguin Books, London, 1967,
p. 126).

The Encyclopedia Americana makes this clear: "In the fifth century, the
Western Church ordered it [Christ's birth] to be observed forever on the
day of the old Roman feast of the birth of Sol [the sun god], as no
certain knowledge of the day of Christ's birth existed" (1944 edition,
"Christmas").

Is there any evidence from the Bible that will help us fix the
date and year of Christ's birth?

Actually from the Bible, we can at least determine the probable season and
year of His birth. The most convincing proof of when Jesus was born comes
in understanding the evidence that is presented in the book of Luke
concerning the birth of John the Baptist.

Luke 1:5-17 says:

In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest
named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of
Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name
was Elizabeth. Both of them were righteous before God,
living blamelessly according to all the commandments and
regulations of the Lord. But they had no children, because
Elizabeth was barren, and both were getting on in years.
Once when he was serving as priest before God and his
section was on duty, he was chosen by lot, according to the
custom of the priesthood, to enter the sanctuary of the Lord
and offer incense. Now at the time of the incense offering,
the whole assembly of the people was praying outside.
Then there appeared to him an angel of the Lord, standing
at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw
him, he was terrified; and fear overwhelmed him. But the
angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your
prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a
son, and you will name him John. You will have joy and
gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, for he will be
great in the sight of the Lord. He must never drink wine or
strong drink; even before his birth he will be filled with the
Holy Spirit. He will turn many of the people of Israel to the
Lord their God. With the spirit and power of Elijah he will
go before him, to turn the hearts of parents to their children,
and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous, to make
ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Zechariah was of the division of Abijah (Luke 1:5,8). Back in King David's
day, the priests had been separated into 24 turns or divisions. These
turns began in the first month of the Jewish calendar (1
Chronicles 27:2), March or April of our modern calendar. According to
Talmudic and Qumran sources, the turns rotated every week until
they reached the end of the sixth month, when the cycle was repeated again
until the end of the year. This would mean that Zechariah's division
served at the temple twice a year.

We find in 1 Chronicles 24:10 that Abijah was the eighth division of the
priesthood. Thus, Zechariahs service would be in the tenth week of the
Jewish year. Why the tenth week? Because all divisions served during
primary feast weeks of the Jewish year. So all of the divisions of the
priesthood would serve during Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread
(the third week of the year). Likewise, all of the divisions of the
priesthood would serve during the Feast of Weeks or Pentecost (the ninth
week). Thus, the eighth course of the priesthood would end up serving on
the tenth week of the year.

Now we must make an assumption here. Remember we said that
Zechariah's division served at the temple twice a year. The Bible does not
specify which of the two shifts of service it was. Regardless, nine months
after one of the two dates John the Baptist was born. This would place his
birth in March or September.

We will assume that Luke is recording Zechariah's first shift of service
for the year. We will find that assumption tends to prove true as we
discover the dates of John the Baptist's and Jesus' birth. Therefore, the
date of Zechariah's service would be the Jewish date of Sivan 12-18 (See
the Companion Bible, Appendix 179, Section III).

Picking up the story in Luke 1:23-25:

When his time of service was ended, he went to his home.
After those days his wife Elizabeth conceived, and for five
months she remained in seclusion. She said, "This is what
the Lord has done for me when he looked favorably on me
and took away the disgrace I have endured among my
people."

After his service in the temple, Zechariah went home to his wife. Due to
the laws of separation (Leviticus 12:5; 15:19,25), two additional weeks
have to be counted. Now I don't know about you, but if an angel had told
me that I was going to have a special child, I would get to it just as
soon as the law allowed. So we will make a second assumption, that
Elizabeth conceived a child two weeks after Zechariah's return.

Allowing for this and going forward a normal pregnancy places the
birth of John the Baptist at the time of the Passover (Nisan 15)! The Jews
always looked for Elijah to return on the day of Passover. To this very
day there is an empty chair and a table setting for Elijah
whenever Passover is celebrated. Little children also go to the door of
the home and open it in anticipation of Elijah's coming. The Old
Testament prophets had said that God would send Elijah before the
coming of the Messiah (Malachi 3:1; 4:5-6). According to these
calculations John the Baptist was born at Passover. Remember the
angel's words to Zechariah? The angel said that John the Baptist was to
come "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17). Elijah came at
Passover!

Continuing in Luke 1:26-36:

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a
town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a
man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The
virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said,
"Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." But she was
much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of
greeting this might be. The angel said to her, "Do not be
afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And now,
you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you
will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the
Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the
throne of his ancestor David. He will reign over the house of
Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a
virgin?"

The angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called
Son of God. And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age
has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her
who was said to be barren.

Luke tells us that Elizabeth was six months pregnant when the angel
Gabriel visited Mary. The beginning of Elizabeth's sixth month would have
been the celebration of the Jewish feast of Hanukkah, which
occurs in December of our modern calendar. Hanukkah (Chanukkah) is known
as the "Feast of the Dedication" (John 10:22) because it is connected with
the dedication of the second Jewish temple and the rededication of the
temple after the Maccabean revolt. Mary was being dedicated for a purpose
of enormous magnitude: God's presence in an earthly temple, i.e. a human
body (John 2:18-21).

If Mary did conceive on Hanukkah, John the Baptist would have been born
three months later at Passover. And assuming a normal
pregnancy of 285 days, Jesus would have been born on the 15th day of
Jewish month of Tishri (September 29 by modern reckoning). This is
significant because it is the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles
(Sukkot). It is a high day, a special Sabbath, a time of great rejoicing.

The Feast of Tabernacles and Jesus

As you have seen, the birth of our Lord can be reasonably shown to have
occurred in the autumn of the year on the first day of the Feast of
Tabernacles. The Feast of Tabernacles is a joyful feast. Jewish believers
would build a tabernacle or booth known as a "sukkah" out of green tree
branches. They would eat their meals and sleep in this sukkah for eight
days.

There are some very interesting connections in Scripture with Jesus and
aspects of the Feast of Tabernacles.

John 1:14 says:

And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. [literal
translation of the Greek]

Look at what Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has to say concerning this verse:

To introduce the nature and mission of Christ, John in his Gospel
employs the metaphor of the "booth" of the Feast of Tabernacles. He
explains that Christ, the Word who was with God in the beginning
(John 1:1), manifested Himself in this world in a most tangible way, by
pitching His tent in our midst: "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled
among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, as of the
only Son from the Father" (John 1:14).

The Greek verb skenoo used by John means "to pitch tent, encamp,
tabernacle, dwell in a tent." The allusion is clearly to the Feast of
Tabernacles when the people dwelt in temporary booths. In his
article "The Feast of Tents: Jesus Self-Revelation," published in
Worship (1960), David Stanley notes that this passage sets the stage for
the later self-revelation of Jesus at the Feast of Tabernacles in John 7
and 8. Stanley writes: "The most basic clue to the mystery pervading this
entire narrative [John 7 and 8] is provided by the symbolic action that
gives this feast its name: the ceremonial
erection of little bowers, made with branches of trees, in which every Jew
was expected to live during the festival. These shelters were
commemorative of the forty years wandering in the desert when
Israel had lived as a nomad in such intimate union with her God.
For John this dwelling in tents is a primordial symbol of the
Incarnation: Thus the Word became a mortal man: he pitched his
tent in the midst of us (John 1:14). It is this insight which presides
over the composition of Johns narrative which we are considering
[John 7-8]. All that happened, all that Jesus said on this occasion has
some reference to the Incarnation."

In seeking to describe the Messiahs first coming to His people, John chose
the imagery of the Feast of Booths since the feast celebrates the dwelling
of God among His people. This raises an interesting
question on whether or not John intended to link the birth of Jesus with
the Feast of Tabernacles.

[from: Gods Festivals in Scripture and History Part II: The
Fall Festivals, page 241.]

According to the Companion Bible, Appendix 179:

The word tabernacled here receives beautiful significance from the
knowledge that "the Lord of Glory" was "found in fashion as a man", and
thus tabernacling in human flesh. And in turn it shows in
equally beautiful significance that our Lord was born on the first day of
the great Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, viz. the 15th of Tisri,
corresponding to September 29 (modern reckoning).

The Circumcision of our Lord took place therefore on the eighth day, the
last day of the Feast, the "Great Day of the Feast" of John 7.37
("Tabernacles" had eight days. The Feast of Unleavened Bread had
seven days, and Pentecost one. See Lev. 23).

From The Seven Festivals of the Messiah by Eddie Chumney we read
this:

As we have stated earlier in this chapter, the Feast of Sukkot
(Tabernacles) is called "the season of our joy" and "the feast of the
nations." With this in mind, in Luke 2:10 it is written, "And the angel
said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings [basar in
Hebrew; otherwise known as the gospel] of great joy
[Sukkot is called the 'season of our joy'], which shall be to all people
[Sukkot is called 'the feast of the nations']." So, we can see from this
that the terminology the angel used to announce the birth of
Yeshua (Jesus) were themes and messages associated with the Feast
of Sukkot (Tabernacles).

As we have seen, the Feast of Tabernacles is called variously "Season of
Our Joy" and "Feast of the Nations." It is also called "Feast of Lights".

John 1:6-9 says:

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
He came as a witness to testify to the light, so that all might
believe through him. He himself was not the light, but he
came to testify to the light. The true light, which enlightens
everyone, was coming into the world.

In these verses John refers to Jesus as "the light"; and as we have also
seen, verse 14 says that he "became flesh and tabernacled [literal meaning
of the Greek] among us". These are two apparent references to the Feast of
Tabernacles that are associated with the coming of the Messiah.

Magi from the east

The Scriptures tell us that there were wise men (scholars) who came from
the east looking for the birth of the Messiah, saying "we have seen his
star in the east". Who were these scholars from the east? Why were they
looking for a Jewish Messiah?

Matthew 2:1-6 says:

In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea,
wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, asking, "Where is the child who
has been born king of the Jews? For we observed his star at its rising,
and have come to pay him homage. When King Herod heard this, he was
frightened, and all Jerusalem with him; and calling together all the chief
priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah
was to be born. They told him, "In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it has been
written by the prophet: 'And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by
no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler
who is to shepherd my people Israel.'" [cited from Micah 5:2]

Babylon was known as "the land to the east." At the time of the birth of
Jesus, the largest Jewish population was actually in Babylon, not in
Palestine. Nearly five hundred years earlier, the entire nation of Judah
had been carried away captive into Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. Only a small
colony of Jews returned to Palestine after sixty-three years of captivity.
The greater number of them remained where they had
established homes in the land of Babylon.

The Greek for "wise men" is magoi. Daniel was referred to by this same
title (Daniel 4:9). The word is equivalent to the Jewish term rabbi. It is
very likely that the wise men from the east were Jewish rabbis who had
been anticipating the coming of the Messiah because of Daniels seventy
weeks prophecy [Daniel 9:24]. They had spotted a new star in the sky and
took it to be a sign of the coming of the Messiah.

At the very least, even if the wise men were not Jewish, they would have
been influenced by Daniel's writings. At an earlier time, Daniel had been
in charge of all of the wise men in Babylon (Daniel 2:48; 4:9; 5:11).

The Star and the Feast of Tabernacles

There is one time of the year when Jews would typically look at the stars.
That time was during the Festival of Tabernacles. As we already said,
Jewish believers would build a tabernacle or booth known as a "sukkah" out
of green tree branches. They would eat their meals and sleep in this
sukkah for eight days. It was customary to leave a hole in the roof of the
sukkah so that one could look at the stars. Jewish "wise men" celebrating
the Feast of Tabernacles would have noticed the
appearance of a new star.

The year of Jesus' birth

Jesus was born while Herod the Great was still living (Matthew 2:1). Wise
men appeared in Jerusalem asking about "one who has been born king of the
Jews?" Of course, this upset Herod, who had been given that title by the
Roman Senate. Herod talked to the wise men secretly and found out from
them the exact time the star had appeared (Matthew 2:7). The wise men then
journeyed to Bethlehem and found Jesus,
Mary, and Joseph in a house (Matthew 2:11) and they bowed down and
worshiped Jesus.

When the wise men did not return to give Herod a report, "Herod
realized that he had been outwitted by the wise men. He was furious, and
he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were
two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from
the wise men" (Matthew 2:16).

This tells us that Jesus may have been born two years before the
appearance of the wise men and the death of Herod. Herod died the
spring of 4 B.C. Let's assume that the star appeared at Jesus' birth.
Let's also assume that Herod was already close to death when the wise men
appeared. It was the custom in ancient Israel to count the years of one's
age from the date of conception. Therefore, Herod actually killed the
children one year old and under according to the way that age is
calculated today. This would mean that Jesus had to have been born in 6
B.C. (if Jesus was one year old) or 5 B.C. (if Jesus was under one year
and Herod was just being extra careful).

This date for Jesus' birth fits with other Biblical data such as Jesus
being "about thirty years old" when He began his ministry (Luke 3:23).
From evidence given to us in John 2:20 about the construction of the
temple, we know Jesus' ministry began in A.D. 26. Counting forward from 6
B.C. to A.D. 26 (one year has to be subtracted because there is no year
zero) would make Jesus 31 years old when he began his
ministry -- that is, about thirty years old. Counting forward from 5 B.C.
to A.D. 26 would make Jesus 30 years old when he began his
ministry. The birth years of 5 or 6 B.C. also fit with the best date for
the crucifixion, that is A.D. 30. Personally I opt for the 5 B.C. date,
because I assume the wise men would want to come at once and the time for
a journey from Babylon to Jerusalem takes only four months.

When was Jesus born? Nothing is absolutely certain, because we are dealing
with implications and assumptions, but a best guess from the Scriptures
and history is September 29, 5 B.C.

Sources of Information for this Article:

The Gospel of Luke by William Hendriksen, Baker Book
House.
When was Jesus born? by Christian Renewal Ministries
International.
New Testament History by F.F. Bruce, Anchor Books.
When Was Jesus Christ Born? by Mario Seiglie, The Good
News, United Church of God, 1997.
The Companion Bible, Published by Kregel Publications.
Gods Festivals in Scripture and History, Part 2 by Samuele
Bacchiocchi, PhD.
Available from: Biblical Perspectives
4990 Appian Way
Berrien Springs, MI 49103



The purpose of this article is NOT to suggest that we change the day of
Christmas or the year of our calendars! It is to give added meaning and
insight to our Lord's birth, particularly from a Jewish perspective. If it
really mattered to Jesus when we celebrate His birth, then He would have
made the exact day crystal clear with absolute certainty.

The essential fact is that God did enflesh Himself in time and space (1
John 4:2). He was born from a woman on a specific day in a specific year,
walked among us, died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and ascended
into heaven.

Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian

The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk

Take my polls
http://ninure.100megsfree5.com

My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org

The Bible Site - help provide free scripture
http://www.thebiblesite.org

To send e-mail, remove nohate from address

.

User: "Bill"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 12 Jan 2005 06:53:07 PM
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3adts0dt13lt4ljtdnvq884bf99p0ih4eo@4ax.com...

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:57:15 GMT, Victoria Hirt <no@spam.please> wrote:

What do you mean "unsubstantiated"? Christ was a man that walked the

earth just like you

and me, well, maybe me, and was seen and touched by many other men of

his day.


He means that there is no historical proof that Christ existed.

We have nothing more than folklore and legends. There are no "original"
Bible documents in existence.
All the documents in the Bible are supposed copies of documents that are
over 2,000 years old.
There is NO objective evidence of their authenticity or accuracy.
If these are important documents from your god why does he not provide up to
date authenticated
versions instead of highly questionable antique copies?

What do you mean "no historical proof"? We have eye witness accounts of

Jesus

subsequently recorded by men. Sounds like just any history book to me.

This history book is based on folklore, myth and legend. The story of Noah
and the arc
is a typical example of impossible events claimed in the Bible.

We don't know when, (within five years ) that Christ was born. There is

not

any hard evidence that he actually existed. The only evidence is tales

in

the Bibles and the original texts of the Bibles no longer exist.

Nobody is alive from the days of the American Revolution either.

True, but we do have actual documents from that time.


We also have papyrus/clay writings from Jesus' time also, which are

"actual documents from

that time".

In short the whole Jesus story is based on 2,000 year old documents

that are

copies of no longer existent originals.

Documents, yes, but many personal contacts also.

But personal contacts are notoriously false.


Where do you think history books come from. The AR is not a historical

writing any more

than the bible. People of the AR saw things, recorded them, passed them

on, and

eventually the words (no the original eye witness account) found it's way

into a "history

book".

The facts of the American Revolution are supported by hundreds of news
articles and
books and letters written from that time. There are thousands of letters,
documents, arms and graves to
substantiate it as fact. NO such objective evidence is available to
substantiate that Jesus was a god
on earth.

There is no proof or objective evidence that these collections of

ancient

documents called the Bible are accurate history. As a minimum they are
abstruse mixture of history, allegories, fables, folk tales and contain

many

contradictions.

There is objective evidence galore.

Where? In the vaults under the Vatican? That's probably the first
place to look.


The only difference between the objective evidence for Jesus and the AR is

the age (200

years vs 2000 years). Both events have exactly the same quality of

evidence -

scribblings, paintings, archeology, artifacts, documents, etc. Neither

event has so much

as one live eye witness, picture, videocam, tv picture. etc.

The facts of the American Revolution are supported by hundreds of news
articles and
books written at the time. There are thousands of letters, documents,
photos, arms and graves to
substantiate it as fact. No such evidence is available to substantiate that
Jesus was god on earth.
There are NO authenticated documents or artifacts produced during Jesus's
claimed life time.
It is totally legends and myths.
If Jesus is god, why hasn't he established his authenticity in recent
centuries? Why hasn't he established his
authenticity and the fact that all the other gods are fakes? there are
dozens of other religions and thousands
of god beliefs. Why doesn't he clearly show which is the real god and which
are fakes.
It's probably because all of them are fakes!

In fact, just as definitive as the American
Revolution.


Try again. We have actual documents from that time. We have
paintings from that time depicting the American Revolution. We have
countless artifacts that we know for a fact belong to that time and to
this event.
The only freedom tyranny offers is the freedom to submit.


We have actual documents from the biblical times.

There are NO ORIGINAL Biblical documents and there is NO objective evidence
that the Bible
is the word of any god.

Who said it was George Washington that signed the Declaratjion of

Independence rather than

his farm foreman for him?

This is authenticated by his signature on thousands of documents during his
life time.
Where is ANY signature from your god on any of the Biblical documents?
Your beliefs based on pure faith and no facts.

duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****

.

User: "Victoria Hirt"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 26 Dec 2004 04:54:48 PM
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:06:56 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:57:15 GMT, Victoria Hirt <no@spam.please> wrote:

What do you mean "unsubstantiated"? Christ was a man that walked the earth just like you
and me, well, maybe me, and was seen and touched by many other men of his day.


He means that there is no historical proof that Christ existed.


What do you mean "no historical proof"? We have eye witness accounts of Jesus
subsequently recorded by men. Sounds like just any history book to me.

But that is not true. We do not have eye witness account recorded at
the time of Christ's birth. There is no evidence recorded until after
He died and then only in the New Testament. The Jews refute the idea
that Christ even existed and of course they don't agree that Christ
was the Messiah.
The oldest known New Testament manuscript was created in 125 AD. Not
exactly someone walking around following Jesus with a tape recorder.
The only freedom tyranny offers is the freedom to submit.
.
User: "duke"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 30 Dec 2004 06:57:05 AM
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:54:48 GMT, Victoria Hirt <no@spam.please> wrote:

What do you mean "no historical proof"? We have eye witness accounts of Jesus
subsequently recorded by men. Sounds like just any history book to me.

But that is not true. We do not have eye witness account recorded at
the time of Christ's birth.

Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name) that shared the 40
days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.

There is no evidence recorded until after
He died and then only in the New Testament.

Very wrong. The NT, per se, is a written record of what transpired from before as
witnessed by many peoples.
There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.
What you want is a videotape of the events. We don't have such a thing, nor of the
American Revolution. In fact, we have exactly the same level of evidence for both - some
original documents, documents written as passed on from verbal accounts by others,
drawings, archeology, artifacts. The only difference is quantity and age - 200 years vs
2000 years.

The Jews refute the idea
that Christ even existed and of course they don't agree that Christ
was the Messiah.

Nope. They do not refute the idea of the historical Jesus. But they don't accept him as
the promised Messiah.

The oldest known New Testament manuscript was created in 125 AD. Not
exactly someone walking around following Jesus with a tape recorder.

Nope. As early as 40AD with Jesus crucified in 33AD and as late as, say, 165AD. The eye
witnesses passed their stories along until they began to appear in writing by the few that
could write. It's only been in the last 100 years that the man on the street in the world
could read and write.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****

.
User: "Bill"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 12 Jan 2005 07:03:58 PM
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:a6u7t05e92edhg635660ml8q50oae5teip@4ax.com...

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:54:48 GMT, Victoria Hirt <no@spam.please> wrote:

What do you mean "no historical proof"? We have eye witness accounts of

Jesus

subsequently recorded by men. Sounds like just any history book to me.


But that is not true. We do not have eye witness account recorded at
the time of Christ's birth.


Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name)

that shared the 40

days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.

Where is the proof of this silly claim? Honest historians tell us that IF
Jeus existed it was some
time during five years from the present year 1 AD. There is NO proof of his
existence, birth
or death at any specific time.

There is no evidence recorded until after
He died and then only in the New Testament.


Very wrong. The NT, per se, is a written record of what transpired from

before as

witnessed by many peoples.

There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.

The writings of the early church were slanted to justify and support their
religious system and power.
These writings date a minimum of 125 years after Jesus'e claimed death.

What you want is a videotape of the events. We don't have such a thing,

nor of the

American Revolution. In fact, we have exactly the same level of evidence

for both - some

original documents, documents written as passed on from verbal accounts by

others,

drawings, archeology, artifacts. The only difference is quantity and

age - 200 years vs

2000 years.


The Jews refute the idea
that Christ even existed and of course they don't agree that Christ
was the Messiah.


Nope. They do not refute the idea of the historical Jesus. But they

don't accept him as

the promised Messiah.

The oldest known New Testament manuscript was created in 125 AD. Not
exactly someone walking around following Jesus with a tape recorder.


Nope. As early as 40AD with Jesus crucified in 33AD and as late as, say,

165AD. The eye

witnesses passed their stories along until they began to appear in writing

by the few that

could write. It's only been in the last 100 years that the man on the

street in the world

could read and write.

duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****

.

User: "Victoria Hirt"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 30 Dec 2004 07:49:50 AM
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 06:57:05 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

But that is not true. We do not have eye witness account recorded at
the time of Christ's birth.


Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name) that shared the 40
days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.

None of these people wrote the New Testament.

There is no evidence recorded until after
He died and then only in the New Testament.


Very wrong. The NT, per se, is a written record of what transpired from before as
witnessed by many peoples.

But it wasn't written at the time when Christ lived. It was written
long after. No one was alive from the time of Christ when it was
written.

There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.

Which ones? Different "Church Fathers" wrote different things.
The only freedom tyranny offers is the freedom to submit.
.
User: "duke"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 30 Dec 2004 04:46:13 PM
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:49:50 GMT, Victoria Hirt <no@spam.please> wrote:

Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name) that shared the 40
days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.

None of these people wrote the New Testament.

What they experienced/wrote/passed on became the NT>

There is no evidence recorded until after
He died and then only in the New Testament.

Very wrong. The NT, per se, is a written record of what transpired from before as
witnessed by many peoples.

But it wasn't written at the time when Christ lived. It was written
long after. No one was alive from the time of Christ when it was
written.

You're referring to the original documents called the 4 gospels. These 4 are the results
of witnesses stories and experiences of those that were there.

There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.

Which ones? Different "Church Fathers" wrote different things.

Substantiation of the stories of the original witnesses.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****

.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 30 Dec 2004 06:06:26 PM
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:46:13 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.

Which ones? Different "Church Fathers" wrote different things.


Substantiation of the stories of the original witnesses.

No, contrary accounts.
So then explain to me, why should I believe the Gospel of Matthew and
not the Gospel of Peter? Why should I accept the Gospel of Mark and
not the Gospel of Thomas? Why the Gospel of Luke and not the Gospel of
Judas? Why the Gospel of John and not the Gospel of the Hebrews? Or
the Gospels of the Egyptians, Ebionites or Nazareans.
What about the Gospel of Mary? The Gospel of Philip?
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html
## How can you say, “We are wise, and the torah of YHWH is with us,”
## when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?
Jeremiah 8:8
.
User: "wcb"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 31 Dec 2004 11:34:16 AM
John Ings wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:46:13 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.


Which ones? Different "Church Fathers" wrote different things.


Substantiation of the stories of the original witnesses.


No, contrary accounts.

So then explain to me, why should I believe the Gospel of Matthew and
not the Gospel of Peter? Why should I accept the Gospel of Mark and
not the Gospel of Thomas? Why the Gospel of Luke and not the Gospel of
Judas? Why the Gospel of John and not the Gospel of the Hebrews? Or
the Gospels of the Egyptians, Ebionites or Nazareans.
What about the Gospel of Mary? The Gospel of Philip?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html

Nice site.
--
Dance, monkeys, dance!
Cheerful Charlie
.

User: "duke"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 31 Dec 2004 01:58:31 PM
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:06:26 -0800, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote:

There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.

Which ones? Different "Church Fathers" wrote different things.

Substantiation of the stories of the original witnesses.

No, contrary accounts.
So then explain to me, why should I believe the Gospel of Matthew and
not the Gospel of Peter?

You should believe both as they concern God's word and the salvation of souls. As far as
an inaccurate and insignificant accounting of the exact number of people who saw or may
have seen the risen Lord, why that is of no real scriptural and significant value.

Why should I accept the Gospel of Mark and
not the Gospel of Thomas?

There is no gospel of Thomas.

Why the Gospel of Luke and not the Gospel of
Judas?

There is no gospel of Judas.

Why the Gospel of John and not the Gospel of the Hebrews?

There is no gospel of the hebrews.

Or
the Gospels of the Egyptians, Ebionites or Nazareans.

There aren't any.

What about the Gospel of Mary? The Gospel of Philip?

None exist.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****

.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 31 Dec 2004 03:00:31 PM
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:58:31 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.

Which ones? Different "Church Fathers" wrote different things.

Substantiation of the stories of the original witnesses.

No, contrary accounts.


So then explain to me, why should I believe the Gospel of Matthew and
not the Gospel of Peter?


You should believe both as they concern God's word and the salvation of souls.

OK

As far as
an inaccurate and insignificant accounting of the exact number of people who saw or >may have seen the risen Lord, why that is of no real scriptural and significant value.

Why should I accept the Gospel of Mark and
not the Gospel of Thomas?


There is no gospel of Thomas.

Of course there is! Here's the text:
http://www.misericordia.edu/users/davies/thomas/Trans.htm
Now if I am to accept the Gospel of Peter,
why not the Gospel of Thomas?

Why the Gospel of Luke and not the Gospel of
Judas?


There is no gospel of Judas.

Of course there is!

Why the Gospel of John and not the Gospel of the Hebrews?


There is no gospel of the hebrews.

Of course there is! Here's the text:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelhebrews-mrjames.html

Or
the Gospels of the Egyptians, Ebionites or Nazareans.


There aren't any.

But there are and there's no good your denying it! There were many
Gospels and sacred writings that didn't get included in your Bible.

What about the Gospel of Mary? The Gospel of Philip?


None exist.

Here's the text: http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html
## The New Testament is less a Christiad than a Pauliad.
Thomas Hardy
.
User: "duke"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 31 Dec 2004 05:21:32 PM
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:00:31 -0800, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote:

There is no gospel of Thomas.

Of course there is! Here's the text:
http://www.misericordia.edu/users/davies/thomas/Trans.htm
Now if I am to accept the Gospel of Peter,
why not the Gospel of Thomas?

There is no gospel of Thomas. They may well be a writing by thomas, and he may well have
wished that someone hundreds of years later would call it a gospel, but there are only 4
Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
the gospel of Thomas is of no more value than the gospel of john ings.

Why the Gospel of Luke and not the Gospel of
Judas?

There is no gospel of Judas.

Of course there is!

Nope.

Why the Gospel of John and not the Gospel of the Hebrews?

There is no gospel of the hebrews.

Of course there is! Here's the text:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelhebrews-mrjames.html

Nope.

Or
the Gospels of the Egyptians, Ebionites or Nazareans.

There aren't any.

But there are and there's no good your denying it! There were many
Gospels and sacred writings that didn't get included in your Bible.

Nope.

What about the Gospel of Mary? The Gospel of Philip?

None exist.

Nope.

Here's the text: http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html
## The New Testament is less a Christiad than a Pauliad.
Thomas Hardy

Yeah, like some joker named Thomas hardy knows better.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****

.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 31 Dec 2004 06:31:31 PM
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 17:21:32 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

There is no gospel of Thomas.

Of course there is! Here's the text:
http://www.misericordia.edu/users/davies/thomas/Trans.htm
Now if I am to accept the Gospel of Peter,
why not the Gospel of Thomas?


There is no gospel of Thomas. They may well be a writing by thomas,
and he may well have wished that someone hundreds of years later
would call it a gospel,

But the point is that thousands of people in HIS day called it a
Gospel. Those who believed that Gospel prayed to Jesus as sincerely as
any who prayed to him after reading any of the four Gospels you
acknowledge.

but there are only 4 Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

No there were dozens. That's the point! And the Christians who read
them died as bravely in the Roman arenas for their faith as any who
died for Paulism qand the four you acknowledge.

the gospel of Thomas is of no more value than the gospel of john ings.

It's of as much value as any other Gospel, which is to say it tells of
the religious superstitions of ancient men.

Why the Gospel of Luke and not the Gospel of
Judas?

There is no gospel of Judas.

Of course there is!


Nope.

Just because you don't think so is of no import. People in ancient
times did. Many may have believe in one or more of the four Gospels
you acknowledge and one or more of those I list.

Why the Gospel of John and not the Gospel of the Hebrews?

There is no gospel of the hebrews.

Of course there is! Here's the text:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelhebrews-mrjames.html


Nope.

You can deny all you want. To quite sincere believers in centuries
past that was scripture, and I have no more reason to believe your
four Gospels than theirs.

Or
the Gospels of the Egyptians, Ebionites or Nazareans.

There aren't any.


But there are and there's no good your denying it! There were many
Gospels and sacred writings that didn't get included in your Bible.


Nope.

Reality can't be denied by saying 'nope'. It's history.
Your four Gospels were chosen from among many.

What about the Gospel of Mary? The Gospel of Philip?

None exist.


Nope.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Here's the text: http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html


## The New Testament is less a Christiad than a Pauliad.
Thomas Hardy


Yeah, like some joker named Thomas hardy knows better.

Probably the guy who wrote it wasn't named Thomas, anymore than the
guy who wrote Matthew was named Matthew. But devout Christians
believed in each of those Gospels in ancient times.
## You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge!
.
User: "duke"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 01 Jan 2005 12:20:46 PM
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:31:31 -0800, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote:

But the point is that thousands of people in HIS day called it a
Gospel. Those who believed that Gospel prayed to Jesus as sincerely as
any who prayed to him after reading any of the four Gospels you
acknowledge.

No they didn't. Gospel means good news, and Thomas' writings were never consider
inspired.

but there are only 4 Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

No there were dozens.

Nope, only 4.

the gospel of Thomas is of no more value than the gospel of john ings.

It's of as much value as any other Gospel, which is to say it tells of
the religious superstitions of ancient men.

yep, ing and thomas are both of no value.

Nope.

Just because you don't think so is of no import.

It's not me. It's the 2000 year old Christian Church that proclaimed "no gospel of
Thomas".

Why the Gospel of John and not the Gospel of the Hebrews?

There is no gospel of the hebrews.

Of course there is! Here's the text:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelhebrews-mrjames.html


Nope.

You can deny all you want. To quite sincere believers in centuries
past that was scripture, and I have no more reason to believe your
four Gospels than theirs.

The Christian Church says "no gospel of Hebrews".
There is, however, an Epistle to the Hebrews written by St Paul, but no gospel -
definitely not.
..

Or
the Gospels of the Egyptians, Ebionites or Nazareans.

There aren't any.

But there are and there's no good your denying it! There were many
Gospels and sacred writings that didn't get included in your Bible.

Nope.

Reality can't be denied by saying 'nope'. It's history.
Your four Gospels were chosen from among many.

Nope, the reality is that there is no Gospel of Egyptian, Ebionites, or Nazareans.

What about the Gospel of Mary? The Gospel of Philip?

None exist.

Nope.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Exactly, but there is still no Gospel of Mary.

Probably the guy who wrote it wasn't named Thomas, anymore than the
guy who wrote Matthew was named Matthew. But devout Christians
believed in each of those Gospels in ancient times.

Nope - they were rejected early on for two reasons - repetition of earlier writings, or
fabrications.

## You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge!


Exactly, reality won't budge. And you're just got a dose of reality.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****

.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 01 Jan 2005 02:01:59 PM
On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 12:20:46 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

But the point is that thousands of people in HIS day called it a
Gospel. Those who believed that Gospel prayed to Jesus as sincerely as
any who prayed to him after reading any of the four Gospels you
acknowledge.


No they didn't. Gospel means good news, and Thomas' writings were never consider
inspired.

Lots of people considered them inspired. Christianity was at that time
what it is now and always has been, a stew of sectarian backbiting and
invective. The early church fathers hated each other's guts and spent
much of their time hurling charges of "heretic" and "apostate" at each
other. At the time they were written Thomas' Gospel had as many
believers as Matthew's.

but there are only 4 Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.


No there were dozens.


Nope, only 4.

You can't refute history with your opinion of what is a Gospel and
what isn't. All that does is reveal your bigotry.

the gospel of Thomas is of no more value than the gospel of john ings.

It's of as much value as any other Gospel, which is to say it tells of
the religious superstitions of ancient men.


yep, ing and thomas are both of no value.

Along with the rest, including Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Ancient fictions. But Gospels.

Nope.


Just because you don't think so is of no import.


It's not me. It's the 2000 year old Christian Church that proclaimed "no gospel of
Thomas".

No it didn't. The Christian chuch of today does not acknowledge the
Gospel of Thomas as part of it's sacred canon. But it does not deny
it's a Gospel.

Why the Gospel of John and not the Gospel of the Hebrews?

There is no gospel of the hebrews.

Of course there is! Here's the text:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelhebrews-mrjames.html


Nope.


You can deny all you want. To quite sincere believers in centuries
past that was scripture, and I have no more reason to believe your
four Gospels than theirs.


The Christian Church says "no gospel of Hebrews".

Nope. They only say it's not inspired and its teachings are not
acceptable to Christianity as taught by the church. But then there are
several pieces of scripture that even today are accepted as scripture
by some Christian churches and not others.

There is, however, an Epistle to the Hebrews written by St Paul, but no gospel -
definitely not.

History is not confounded by piety or prejudice.
Mention the Gospel of the Hebrews at any seminary and they know
exactly what document is referred to. They deny its teachings, but not
its existence.

Or
the Gospels of the Egyptians, Ebionites or Nazareans.

There aren't any.

But there are and there's no good your denying it! There were many
Gospels and sacred writings that didn't get included in your Bible.

Nope.


Reality can't be denied by saying 'nope'. It's history.
Your four Gospels were chosen from among many.


Nope, the reality is that there is no Gospel of Egyptian, Ebionites, or Nazareans.

Reality is that there is.

What about the Gospel of Mary? The Gospel of Philip?

None exist.

Nope.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.


Exactly, but there is still no Gospel of Mary.

Ask at any university seminary. They'll tell you there is.

Probably the guy who wrote it wasn't named Thomas, anymore than the
guy who wrote Matthew was named Matthew. But devout Christians
believed in each of those Gospels in ancient times.


Nope - they were rejected early on for two reasons - repetition of earlier writings, or
fabrications.

They were rejected when the NT canon was finalized, but that doesn't
mean they weren't Gospels. And all Gospels are fabrications.

## You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge!


Exactly, reality won't budge. And you're just got a dose of reality.

Not from you my biased friend. "Gospel" means "the teachings of
Jesus and the apostles; the Christian revelation.", and "glad tidings,
esp. concerning salvation and the kingdom of God as announced to the
world by Christ." and there were lots of such writings in the 2nd and
3rd centuries CE, of which only four met the approval of the Church of
Rome.
## Knowledge and history are the enemies of religion.
.









User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 30 Dec 2004 07:25:14 AM
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 06:57:05 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

What do you mean "no historical proof"? We have eye witness accounts of Jesus
subsequently recorded by men. Sounds like just any history book to me.


But that is not true. We do not have eye witness account recorded at
the time of Christ's birth.


Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name) that shared >the 40 days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.

No, the Gospels SAY there were, but that could just as easily be a
fabrication. No contemporary historian records any unusual events
taking place in Judea at the time.

There is no evidence recorded until after
He died and then only in the New Testament.


Very wrong. The NT, per se, is a written record of what transpired from before as
witnessed by many peoples.

Or a tall story made up by the Gospel writers, whose identity you
don't even know. The one NT writer whose identity is known, Saul of
Tarsus, never mentions any of the events you say were witnessed.

There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.

Who were in competition with each other making up miracles to impress
prospective converts with.

What you want is a videotape of the events.

No, a dispassionate contemporary historian would do, and there were
lots around. None mention this miracle worker. A few in later years
mention the existence of Christian sects and their beliefs, but not
one speaks directly of events in Judea.

We don't have such a thing, nor of the American Revolution.

We have however lots of accounts of that revolution by known persons
on both sides of the conflict.

In fact, we have exactly the same level of evidence for both

Nope. Not even close. And the people writing about the American
Revolutionary War weren't evangelicals trying to sell a new religion
to prospective converts.

- some original documents,

Not a single one from the 1st century.

documents written as passed on from verbal accounts by others,

Or made up out of whole cloth.

drawings, archeology, artifacts.

None of the above.
## Sanctius ac reverentius visum de actis deorum credere quam scire.
Tacitus
.
User: "wcb"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 31 Dec 2004 02:31:43 PM
John Ings wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 06:57:05 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

What do you mean "no historical proof"? We have eye witness accounts of
Jesus
subsequently recorded by men. Sounds like just any history book to me.


But that is not true. We do not have eye witness account recorded at
the time of Christ's birth.


Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name)
that shared >the 40 days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.


No, the Gospels SAY there were,

No gospel says that actually.
Most certainly not Mark.
There 13 saw him before he ascended to heaven
Certainly not Matthew, nor John.
Definitely not Luke that as per Mark has him seen only
by 13 people before he ascends to heaven from Bethany.

but that could just as easily be a
fabrication. No contemporary historian records any unusual events
taking place in Judea at the time.

We know they are fabrications because they all
contradict each other.


There is no evidence recorded until after
He died and then only in the New Testament.


Very wrong. The NT, per se, is a written record of what transpired from
before as witnessed by many peoples.


Or a tall story made up by the Gospel writers, whose identity you
don't even know. The one NT writer whose identity is known, Saul of
Tarsus, never mentions any of the events you say were witnessed.

There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.


Who were in competition with each other making up miracles to impress
prospective converts with.

And made up some very weird stories, most so outlandish
they never made the final cut to the bible.
What they prove is people will make up bizarre tales.


What you want is a videotape of the events.


No, a dispassionate contemporary historian would do, and there were
lots around. None mention this miracle worker. A few in later years
mention the existence of Christian sects and their beliefs, but not
one speaks directly of events in Judea.

We don't have such a thing, nor of the American Revolution.


We have however lots of accounts of that revolution by known persons
on both sides of the conflict.

In fact, we have exactly the same level of evidence for both


Nope. Not even close. And the people writing about the American
Revolutionary War weren't evangelicals trying to sell a new religion
to prospective converts.

We have journals and official reports written by participants as events
unfolded.

- some original documents,


Not a single one from the 1st century.

documents written as passed on from verbal accounts by others,


Or made up out of whole cloth.

drawings, archeology, artifacts.

Artifacts? In churches across Europe we had six heads of John
the Baptist, vials of the Virgins milk, three prepuces from the
circumcised Jesus and a juglet alledgedly containing the darkness
the descended on Egypt in the time of Moses.
There was no lie or fakr 'artifact' so ludicrous that
some church or the other didn't claim, often, several
claimed to have.
Snigger. Duke is pathetically ignorant on the dismal
and often ludicrous past history of 'artifacts'.
--
Dance, monkeys, dance!
Cheerful Charlie
.

User: "duke"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 30 Dec 2004 04:43:37 PM
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:25:14 -0800, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote:

Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name)

that shared >the 40 days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.
No, the Gospels SAY there were, but that could just as easily be a
fabrication. No contemporary historian records any unusual events
taking place in Judea at the time.

Yeah, just like your birth certificate says you were born instead of hatched.

There is no evidence recorded until after
He died and then only in the New Testament.

Very wrong. The NT, per se, is a written record of what transpired from before as
witnessed by many peoples.

Or a tall story made up by the Gospel writers, whose identity you
don't even know. The one NT writer whose identity is known, Saul of
Tarsus, never mentions any of the events you say were witnessed.

Just like our birth in lieu of a chicken hatchling.

There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.

Who were in competition with each other making up miracles to impress
prospective converts with.

When stumped, pull the ejection handle.

What you want is a videotape of the events.

No, a dispassionate contemporary historian would do, and there were
lots around.

No, there were not. The biblical events (gospels) all took place is a desert wilderness
around an out of the way Roman garrison.
But you said there were lots - so name one, just one.

None mention this miracle worker. A few in later years
mention the existence of Christian sects and their beliefs, but not
one speaks directly of events in Judea.

there were none around.

We don't have such a thing, nor of the American Revolution.

We have however lots of accounts of that revolution by known persons
on both sides of the conflict.

Like who? We have the Jews, the Romans, and the future Christians.

In fact, we have exactly the same level of evidence for both

Nope. Not even close. And the people writing about the American
Revolutionary War weren't evangelicals trying to sell a new religion
to prospective converts.

Oh, they were the pilgrims, the refugees from England who left for religious persecution
reasons. Now what?

- some original documents,

Not a single one from the 1st century.

What is an original document, and why is it any more accurate that historical records
written 100 years later after the AR?

documents written as passed on from verbal accounts by others,

Or made up out of whole cloth.

As for the AR.

drawings, archeology, artifacts.

None of the above.

You don't know much, do you.

## Sanctius ac reverentius visum de actis deorum credere quam scire.
Tacitus

Gotcha.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****

.
User: "John Ings"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 30 Dec 2004 06:02:06 PM
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:43:37 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name)

that shared >the 40 days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.


No, the Gospels SAY there were, but that could just as easily be a
fabrication. No contemporary historian records any unusual events
taking place in Judea at the time.


Yeah, just like your birth certificate says you were born instead of hatched.

If you had a rebuttal I'm sure you would have used it here.

There is no evidence recorded until after
He died and then only in the New Testament.


Very wrong. The NT, per se, is a written record of what transpired from before as
witnessed by many peoples.


Or a tall story made up by the Gospel writers, whose identity you
don't even know. The one NT writer whose identity is known, Saul of
Tarsus, never mentions any of the events you say were witnessed.


Just like our birth in lieu of a chicken hatchling.

If you had a rebuttal I'm sure you would have used it here.

There is also the writings of the early Church Fathers.

Who were in competition with each other making up miracles to impress
prospective converts with.


When stumped, pull the ejection handle.

If you had a rebuttal I'm sure you would have used it here.

What you want is a videotape of the events.


No, a dispassionate contemporary historian would do, and there were
lots around.


No, there were not.

Several.

The biblical events (gospels) all took place is a desert wilderness
around an out of the way Roman garrison.

Jerusalem was a populous and wealthy city.

But you said there were lots - so name one, just one.

Josephus, Arrian, Philo-Judaeus, Suetonius, Tacitus, Dio Chrysostom
Some of the above lived a century or so later, and not all were
historians per-se, but at least some should have at least commented in
passing on the subject of miraculous events in Judea. Several report
the beliefs and activities of Christian sects, but none mention
anything unusual going on in Jerusalem in the 4th decade of the 1st
century.

None mention this miracle worker. A few in later years
mention the existence of Christian sects and their beliefs, but not
one speaks directly of events in Judea.


there were none around.

Josephus was born in Jerusalem about the time those wonders were
supposed to have taken place, and would surely have heard about them
as he was growing up if they had been common knowledge. He wrote
extensively on the subject of Jewish history, but not a word about
miracles in Jerusalem.

We don't have such a thing, nor of the American Revolution.

We have however lots of accounts of that revolution by known persons
on both sides of the conflict.


Like who?

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/reference/revbib/revwar.htm

We have the Jews, the Romans, and the future Christians.

Not a one you can name.

In fact, we have exactly the same level of evidence for both


Nope. Not even close. And the people writing about the American
Revolutionary War weren't evangelicals trying to sell a new religion
to prospective converts.


Oh, they were the pilgrims, the refugees from England who left for religious persecution
reasons. Now what?

Pilgrims don't have any reason to make up phony miracles.
Evangelists do.

- some original documents,

Not a single one from the 1st century.


What is an original document,

The first copy, written by the author.

and why is it any more accurate that historical records
written 100 years later after the AR?

Because in the two centuries after the AR, nobody was trying to use
the records of that war to recruit converts in competition with the
evangelicals of dozens of other religions. But in the Roman empire in
the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE, that's just what was going on, and
that's when all those miracles were invented. The Persian god Mithra
was claimed by his followers to have walked on water, so naturally
Jesus was claimed to have done so too.

documents written as passed on from verbal accounts by others,

Or made up out of whole cloth.


As for the AR.

To some extent, but I don't recall any miracles being mentioned in the
history of the American Revolution.

drawings, archeology, artifacts.

None of the above.


You don't know much, do you.

If you had a rebuttal I'm sure you would have used it here.

## Sanctius ac reverentius visum de actis deorum credere quam scire.
Tacitus


Gotcha.

Suure you did!
## Here is a final in from Rome: Lions 45, Christians 0
.
User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 30 Dec 2004 06:09:29 PM
"John Ings" <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message
news:j159t0pheied0vgfcj5msdn1q1ipj30rnc@4ax.com...

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:43:37 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name)

that shared >the 40 days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.


No, the Gospels SAY there were, but that could just as easily be a
fabrication. No contemporary historian records any unusual events
taking place in Judea at the time.


Yeah, just like your birth certificate says you were born instead of
hatched.


If you had a rebuttal I'm sure you would have used it here.

Um, this is puke. That's the best he can do.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.




User: "wcb"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 30 Dec 2004 08:19:49 AM
duke wrote:

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:54:48 GMT, Victoria Hirt <no@spam.please> wrote:

What do you mean "no historical proof"? We have eye witness accounts of
Jesus
subsequently recorded by men. Sounds like just any history book to me.


But that is not true. We do not have eye witness account recorded at
the time of Christ's birth.


Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name)
that shared the 40 days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.

Again, Mark 16, Christ appeared to 2 disciples, the 11 remaining apostles
and immediayely ascended to heavn.
No 500. Yet you repeat the lie.
Luke, no 500, yet you repeat the lie.
--
Dance, monkeys, dance!
Cheerful Charlie
.
User: "duke"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 30 Dec 2004 04:48:55 PM
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:19:49 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:

Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name)
that shared the 40 days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.

Again, Mark 16, Christ appeared to 2 disciples, the 11 remaining apostles
and immediayely ascended to heavn.
No 500. Yet you repeat the lie.
Luke, no 500, yet you repeat the lie.

Different accounts from different people.
You're talking yourself into a box. Either you have to claim the gospels as eye witness
accounts to make your statement against the 500, or admit that the gospels were recordings
years later that not all knew of the 500. Which is it?

duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****

.
User: "wcb"

Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? 30 Dec 2004 08:50:39 PM
duke wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:19:49 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:

Yet we do. There were over 500 known people (not necessarily by name)
that shared the 40 days of the life of the Lord after his resurrection.


Again, Mark 16, Christ appeared to 2 disciples, the 11 remaining apostles
and immediayely ascended to heavn.
No 500. Yet you repeat the lie.
Luke, no 500, yet you repeat the lie.


Different accounts from different people.

No ***** Sherlock!
Different people, none of whom knew anything.
So each made it up as they went.


You're talking yourself into a box. Either you have to claim the gospels
as eye witness accounts to make your statement against the 500, or admit
that the gospels were recordings
years later that not all knew of the 500. Which is it?

No, we know most of 'em didn't know dirt.
Its not then, a sure bet any of them did.
And if any of them did, you can't tell which one.
--
Dance, monkeys, dance!
Cheerful Charlie
.