| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bill" |
| Date: |
23 Dec 2004 10:45:27 AM |
| Object: |
Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
Why on earth do people base their celebrations and whole lives on
unsubstantiated fairy tales like this?
We don't know when, (within five years ) that Christ was born. There is not
any hard evidence that he actually existed. The only evidence is tales in
the Bibles and the original texts of the Bibles no longer exist.
In short the whole Jesus story is based on 2,000 year old documents that are
copies of no longer existent originals.
There is no proof or objective evidence that these collections of ancient
documents called the Bible are accurate history. As a minimum they are
abstruse mixture of history, allegories, fables, folk tales and contain many
contradictions.
God is claimed to be all powerful and creator of the heavens and the earth
and every thing in it.
Why did God use forty errant men to write the Bibles many years before and
after the death of Jesus? None were written extent during Jesus's life.
Archaeological evidence shows that man has existed on earth for
approximately 150,000 years. Why did god wait almost 150,000 years to
communicate with his flock and then only to a very small fraction of mankind
through forty errant men?
If Jesus and any god exists, why doesn't he communicate his existence,
wishes and demands clearly and directly via satellite TV or more effective
communication systems?
Happy holidays!
--
Bill
"Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk> wrote in
message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-2312040901330001@h-68-164-226-201.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...
(~) When was Jesus Born?
Best Guess: September 29, 5 B.C.
Want the details? Read more below.
Biblical scholars readily tell us that it was most likely NOT on
December 25th, A.D. 0. Why?
When were shepherds in the fields?
Israeli meteorologists tracked December weather patterns for many
years and concluded that the climate in Israel has been essentially
constant for at least the last 2,000 years. The Interpreter's Dictionary
of the Bible states that, "broadly speaking, weather phenomena and
climatic conditions as pictured in the Bible correspond with conditions as
observed today" (R.B.Y. Scott, Vol. 3, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1962, p.
625).
The temperature in the area of Bethlehem in December averages
around 44 degrees Fahrenheit (7 degrees Celsius) but can drop to well
below freezing, especially at night. Describing the weather there, Sara
Ruhin, chief of the Israeli weather service, noted in a 1990 press release
that the area has three months of frost: December with 29 F. [minus 1.6
C.]; January with 30 F. [minus 1.1 C.] and February with 32 F. [0 C.].
Snow is common for two or three days in Jerusalem and nearby
Bethlehem in December and January. These were the winter months of
increased precipitation in Christ's time, when the roads became
practically unusable and people stayed mostly indoors.
This is important evidence to disprove a December date for Christ's birth.
Note that, at the time of Christ's birth, the shepherds tended their
flocks in the fields at night. "Now there were in the same country
shepherds living out in the fields," wrote one Gospel writer, "keeping
watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). A common practice of
shepherds was keeping their flocks in the field from April to October, but
in the cold and rainy winter months they took their flocks back home and
sheltered them.
One commentary admits that, "as these shepherds had not yet brought home
their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet
commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of
December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been
born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by
night. On this very ground the nativity in December should be given up.
The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact,
which casts considerable light upon this disputed point" (Adam Clarke's
Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, note on Luke 2:8).
Another study source agrees: "These humble pastoral folk are out in the
field at night with their flocka feature of the story which would argue
against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would
not have permitted it" (The Interpreter's One-Volume
Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1971, note on Luke 2:4-7).
The Companion Bible, Appendix 179 says:
Shepherds and their flocks would not be found "abiding" (Gr.
agrauleo) in the open fields at night in December (Tebeth), for the
paramount reason that there would be no pasturage at that time. It was the
custom then (as now) to withdraw the flocks during the
month Marchesven (Oct.-Nov.) from the open districts and house
them for the winter.
The census described by Luke
Other evidence arguing against a December birth of Jesus is the Roman
census recorded by Luke. "And it came to pass in those days that a decree
went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered...
So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city. Joseph also went
up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of
David, which is called Bethlehem..., to be registered with Mary, his
betrothed wife, who was with child. So it was, that while they were there,
the days were completed for her to be delivered. And she brought forth her
firstborn Son..." (Luke 2:1-7).
The Roman and Judean rulers knew that taking a census in winter
would have been impractical and unpopular. Generally a census would take
place after the harvest season, around September or October, when it would
not seriously affect the economy, the weather was good and the roads were
still dry enough to allow easy travel. According to the normal dates for
the census, this would probably be the season of Christ's birth.
One author states that this census "could hardly have been at that season
[December 25], however, for such a time would surely not have been chosen
by the authorities for a public enrollment, which
necessitated the population's traveling from all parts to their natal
districts, storms and rain making journeys both unsafe and unpleasant in
winter, except in specially favorable years" ("Christmas at
Bethlehem," Holy-Days and Holidays, Cunningham Geikie).
Luke's account of the census argues strongly against a December date for
Christ's birth. For such an agrarian society, an autumn
post-harvest census was much more likely.
The year of Christ's birth
Jesus wasn't born in A.D. 0 either. In 525 Pope John I commissioned the
scholar Dionysius Exiguus to establish a feast calendar for the Church..
Dionysius also estimated the year of Christ's birth based upon the
founding of the city of Rome. Unfortunately because of insufficient
historical data he arrived at a date at least a few years later than the
actual event.
The Gospels record Jesus' birth as occurring during the reign of Herod the
Great. Herod's death is recorded by Jewish historian Flavius
Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus, Book 17, Chpt. 8) and
occurred in the spring of 4 B.C. (New Testament History, F.F. Bruce,
Anchor Books, p.23). Therefore, Christ's birth had to take place at least
four years before the traditional date!
Jesus was not born on December 25, A.D. 0. [Actually there is no such year
as A.D. 0. Our calendar jumps from 1 B.C. to A.D. 1 with no
intervening year of zero.]
The celebration of Christ's birth in the the early church
In the first 200 years of Christian history, no mention is made of the
calendar date of Jesus' birth. Not until the year 336 do we find the first
mention of a celebration of His birth.
Why this omission? In the case of the Church fathers, the reason is that,
during the three centuries after Christ's life on earth, the event
considered most worthy of commemoration was the date of His death. In
comparison, the date of His birth was considered insignificant. As the
Encyclopedia Americana explains, "Christmas... was, according to
many authorities, not celebrated in the first centuries of the Christian
church, as the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of
remarkable persons rather than their birth..." (1944 edition,
"Christmas").
Speculation on the proper date began in the 3rd and 4th centuries, when
the idea of fixing Christ's birthday started. Quite a controversy arose
among Church leaders. Some were opposed to such a celebration. Origen
(185-254) strongly recommended against such an innovation. "In the
Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great
banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners who make great rejoicings over
the day in which they were born into this world" (Catholic
Encyclopedia, 1908 edition, Vol. 3, p. 724, "Natal Day").
During this time eight specific dates during six different months were
proposed by various groups. December 25, although one of the last dates to
be proposed, was the one finally accepted by the leadership of the Western
church.
A summary of the debate on the dates of Christ's birth appears in The
Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church: "Though speculation as to the
time of year of Christ's birth dates from the early 3rd century, Clement
of Alexandria suggesting the 20th of May, the celebration of the
anniversary does not appear to have been general till the later 4th
century. The earliest mention of the observance on Dec. 25th is in the
Philocalian Calendar, representing Roman practice of the year 336. This
date was probably chosen to oppose the feast of the Natalis Solis Invicti
[nativity of the unconquerable sun] by the celebration of the birth of the
'Sun of Righteousness' and its observance in the West, seems to have
spread from Rome" (1983 edition, Oxford University Press, New York, 1983,
p. 280, "Christmas").
Around 200, when Clement of Alexandria mentioned the speculations
about Christ's birthday, he said nothing about a celebration on that day.
He casually reported the various ideas extant at that time: "And there are
those who have determined not only the year of our Lord's birth, but also
the day..., the 25th day of Pachon... Furthermore, others say that He was
born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi" ("The Stromata, or Miscellanies,"
The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, 1986, p. 333).
Later, in 243, the official feast calendar of the time, De Pascha
Computus, places the date of Christ's birth as March 28. Other dates
suggested were April 2 and November 18. Meanwhile, in the East,
January 6 was chosen, a date the Greeks had celebrated as the birth of the
god Dionysus and the Egyptians as the birth of the god Osiris. Although
pagans commonly celebrated the birthdays of their gods, in the Bible a
birthday is never celebrated to the true God (who, of course, had no birth
or day of origin).
December 25 popularized
In Rome December 25 was made popular by Pope Liberius in 354 and
became the rule in the West in 435 when the first "Christ mass" was
officiated by Pope Sixtus III. This coincided with the date of a
celebration by the Romans to their primary god, the Sun, and to Mithras, a
popular Persian sun god supposedly born on the same day. The Roman
Catholic writer Mario Righetti candidly admits that, "to facilitate the
acceptance of the faith by the pagan masses, the Church of Rome found it
convenient to institute the 25th of December as the feast of the birth of
Christ to divert them from the pagan feast, celebrated on the same day in
honor of the 'Invincible Sun' Mithras, the conqueror of darkness" (Manual
of Liturgical History, 1955, Vol. 2, p. 67).
Protestant historian Henry Chadwick sums up the controversy:
"Moreover, early in the fourth century there begins in the West (where
first and by whom is not known) the celebration of December 25th, the
birthday of the Sun-god at the winter solstice, as the date for the
nativity of Christ. How easy it was for Christianity and solar religion to
become entangled at the popular level is strikingly illustrated by a
mid-fifth century sermon of Pope Leo the Great, rebuking his
over-cautious flock for paying reverence to the Sun on the steps of St.
Peter's before turning their back on it to worship inside the
westward-facing basilica" (The Early Church, Penguin Books, London, 1967,
p. 126).
The Encyclopedia Americana makes this clear: "In the fifth century, the
Western Church ordered it [Christ's birth] to be observed forever on the
day of the old Roman feast of the birth of Sol [the sun god], as no
certain knowledge of the day of Christ's birth existed" (1944 edition,
"Christmas").
Is there any evidence from the Bible that will help us fix the
date and year of Christ's birth?
Actually from the Bible, we can at least determine the probable season and
year of His birth. The most convincing proof of when Jesus was born comes
in understanding the evidence that is presented in the book of Luke
concerning the birth of John the Baptist.
Luke 1:5-17 says:
In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest
named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of
Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name
was Elizabeth. Both of them were righteous before God,
living blamelessly according to all the commandments and
regulations of the Lord. But they had no children, because
Elizabeth was barren, and both were getting on in years.
Once when he was serving as priest before God and his
section was on duty, he was chosen by lot, according to the
custom of the priesthood, to enter the sanctuary of the Lord
and offer incense. Now at the time of the incense offering,
the whole assembly of the people was praying outside.
Then there appeared to him an angel of the Lord, standing
at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw
him, he was terrified; and fear overwhelmed him. But the
angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your
prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a
son, and you will name him John. You will have joy and
gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, for he will be
great in the sight of the Lord. He must never drink wine or
strong drink; even before his birth he will be filled with the
Holy Spirit. He will turn many of the people of Israel to the
Lord their God. With the spirit and power of Elijah he will
go before him, to turn the hearts of parents to their children,
and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous, to make
ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Zechariah was of the division of Abijah (Luke 1:5,8). Back in King David's
day, the priests had been separated into 24 turns or divisions. These
turns began in the first month of the Jewish calendar (1
Chronicles 27:2), March or April of our modern calendar. According to
Talmudic and Qumran sources, the turns rotated every week until
they reached the end of the sixth month, when the cycle was repeated again
until the end of the year. This would mean that Zechariah's division
served at the temple twice a year.
We find in 1 Chronicles 24:10 that Abijah was the eighth division of the
priesthood. Thus, Zechariahs service would be in the tenth week of the
Jewish year. Why the tenth week? Because all divisions served during
primary feast weeks of the Jewish year. So all of the divisions of the
priesthood would serve during Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread
(the third week of the year). Likewise, all of the divisions of the
priesthood would serve during the Feast of Weeks or Pentecost (the ninth
week). Thus, the eighth course of the priesthood would end up serving on
the tenth week of the year.
Now we must make an assumption here. Remember we said that
Zechariah's division served at the temple twice a year. The Bible does not
specify which of the two shifts of service it was. Regardless, nine months
after one of the two dates John the Baptist was born. This would place his
birth in March or September.
We will assume that Luke is recording Zechariah's first shift of service
for the year. We will find that assumption tends to prove true as we
discover the dates of John the Baptist's and Jesus' birth. Therefore, the
date of Zechariah's service would be the Jewish date of Sivan 12-18 (See
the Companion Bible, Appendix 179, Section III).
Picking up the story in Luke 1:23-25:
When his time of service was ended, he went to his home.
After those days his wife Elizabeth conceived, and for five
months she remained in seclusion. She said, "This is what
the Lord has done for me when he looked favorably on me
and took away the disgrace I have endured among my
people."
After his service in the temple, Zechariah went home to his wife. Due to
the laws of separation (Leviticus 12:5; 15:19,25), two additional weeks
have to be counted. Now I don't know about you, but if an angel had told
me that I was going to have a special child, I would get to it just as
soon as the law allowed. So we will make a second assumption, that
Elizabeth conceived a child two weeks after Zechariah's return.
Allowing for this and going forward a normal pregnancy places the
birth of John the Baptist at the time of the Passover (Nisan 15)! The Jews
always looked for Elijah to return on the day of Passover. To this very
day there is an empty chair and a table setting for Elijah
whenever Passover is celebrated. Little children also go to the door of
the home and open it in anticipation of Elijah's coming. The Old
Testament prophets had said that God would send Elijah before the
coming of the Messiah (Malachi 3:1; 4:5-6). According to these
calculations John the Baptist was born at Passover. Remember the
angel's words to Zechariah? The angel said that John the Baptist was to
come "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17). Elijah came at
Passover!
Continuing in Luke 1:26-36:
In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a
town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a
man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The
virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said,
"Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." But she was
much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of
greeting this might be. The angel said to her, "Do not be
afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And now,
you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you
will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the
Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the
throne of his ancestor David. He will reign over the house of
Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a
virgin?"
The angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called
Son of God. And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age
has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her
who was said to be barren.
Luke tells us that Elizabeth was six months pregnant when the angel
Gabriel visited Mary. The beginning of Elizabeth's sixth month would have
been the celebration of the Jewish feast of Hanukkah, which
occurs in December of our modern calendar. Hanukkah (Chanukkah) is known
as the "Feast of the Dedication" (John 10:22) because it is connected with
the dedication of the second Jewish temple and the rededication of the
temple after the Maccabean revolt. Mary was being dedicated for a purpose
of enormous magnitude: God's presence in an earthly temple, i.e. a human
body (John 2:18-21).
If Mary did conceive on Hanukkah, John the Baptist would have been born
three months later at Passover. And assuming a normal
pregnancy of 285 days, Jesus would have been born on the 15th day of
Jewish month of Tishri (September 29 by modern reckoning). This is
significant because it is the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles
(Sukkot). It is a high day, a special Sabbath, a time of great rejoicing.
The Feast of Tabernacles and Jesus
As you have seen, the birth of our Lord can be reasonably shown to have
occurred in the autumn of the year on the first day of the Feast of
Tabernacles. The Feast of Tabernacles is a joyful feast. Jewish believers
would build a tabernacle or booth known as a "sukkah" out of green tree
branches. They would eat their meals and sleep in this sukkah for eight
days.
There are some very interesting connections in Scripture with Jesus and
aspects of the Feast of Tabernacles.
John 1:14 says:
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. [literal
translation of the Greek]
Look at what Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has to say concerning this verse:
To introduce the nature and mission of Christ, John in his Gospel
employs the metaphor of the "booth" of the Feast of Tabernacles. He
explains that Christ, the Word who was with God in the beginning
(John 1:1), manifested Himself in this world in a most tangible way, by
pitching His tent in our midst: "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled
among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, as of the
only Son from the Father" (John 1:14).
The Greek verb skenoo used by John means "to pitch tent, encamp,
tabernacle, dwell in a tent." The allusion is clearly to the Feast of
Tabernacles when the people dwelt in temporary booths. In his
article "The Feast of Tents: Jesus Self-Revelation," published in
Worship (1960), David Stanley notes that this passage sets the stage for
the later self-revelation of Jesus at the Feast of Tabernacles in John 7
and 8. Stanley writes: "The most basic clue to the mystery pervading this
entire narrative [John 7 and 8] is provided by the symbolic action that
gives this feast its name: the ceremonial
erection of little bowers, made with branches of trees, in which every Jew
was expected to live during the festival. These shelters were
commemorative of the forty years wandering in the desert when
Israel had lived as a nomad in such intimate union with her God.
For John this dwelling in tents is a primordial symbol of the
Incarnation: Thus the Word became a mortal man: he pitched his
tent in the midst of us (John 1:14). It is this insight which presides
over the composition of Johns narrative which we are considering
[John 7-8]. All that happened, all that Jesus said on this occasion has
some reference to the Incarnation."
In seeking to describe the Messiahs first coming to His people, John chose
the imagery of the Feast of Booths since the feast celebrates the dwelling
of God among His people. This raises an interesting
question on whether or not John intended to link the birth of Jesus with
the Feast of Tabernacles.
[from: Gods Festivals in Scripture and History Part II: The
Fall Festivals, page 241.]
According to the Companion Bible, Appendix 179:
The word tabernacled here receives beautiful significance from the
knowledge that "the Lord of Glory" was "found in fashion as a man", and
thus tabernacling in human flesh. And in turn it shows in
equally beautiful significance that our Lord was born on the first day of
the great Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, viz. the 15th of Tisri,
corresponding to September 29 (modern reckoning).
The Circumcision of our Lord took place therefore on the eighth day, the
last day of the Feast, the "Great Day of the Feast" of John 7.37
("Tabernacles" had eight days. The Feast of Unleavened Bread had
seven days, and Pentecost one. See Lev. 23).
From The Seven Festivals of the Messiah by Eddie Chumney we read
this:
As we have stated earlier in this chapter, the Feast of Sukkot
(Tabernacles) is called "the season of our joy" and "the feast of the
nations." With this in mind, in Luke 2:10 it is written, "And the angel
said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings [basar in
Hebrew; otherwise known as the gospel] of great joy
[Sukkot is called the 'season of our joy'], which shall be to all people
[Sukkot is called 'the feast of the nations']." So, we can see from this
that the terminology the angel used to announce the birth of
Yeshua (Jesus) were themes and messages associated with the Feast
of Sukkot (Tabernacles).
As we have seen, the Feast of Tabernacles is called variously "Season of
Our Joy" and "Feast of the Nations." It is also called "Feast of Lights".
John 1:6-9 says:
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
He came as a witness to testify to the light, so that all might
believe through him. He himself was not the light, but he
came to testify to the light. The true light, which enlightens
everyone, was coming into the world.
In these verses John refers to Jesus as "the light"; and as we have also
seen, verse 14 says that he "became flesh and tabernacled [literal meaning
of the Greek] among us". These are two apparent references to the Feast of
Tabernacles that are associated with the coming of the Messiah.
Magi from the east
The Scriptures tell us that there were wise men (scholars) who came from
the east looking for the birth of the Messiah, saying "we have seen his
star in the east". Who were these scholars from the east? Why were they
looking for a Jewish Messiah?
Matthew 2:1-6 says:
In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea,
wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, asking, "Where is the child who
has been born king of the Jews? For we observed his star at its rising,
and have come to pay him homage. When King Herod heard this, he was
frightened, and all Jerusalem with him; and calling together all the chief
priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah
was to be born. They told him, "In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it has been
written by the prophet: 'And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by
no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler
who is to shepherd my people Israel.'" [cited from Micah 5:2]
Babylon was known as "the land to the east." At the time of the birth of
Jesus, the largest Jewish population was actually in Babylon, not in
Palestine. Nearly five hundred years earlier, the entire nation of Judah
had been carried away captive into Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. Only a small
colony of Jews returned to Palestine after sixty-three years of captivity.
The greater number of them remained where they had
established homes in the land of Babylon.
The Greek for "wise men" is magoi. Daniel was referred to by this same
title (Daniel 4:9). The word is equivalent to the Jewish term rabbi. It is
very likely that the wise men from the east were Jewish rabbis who had
been anticipating the coming of the Messiah because of Daniels seventy
weeks prophecy [Daniel 9:24]. They had spotted a new star in the sky and
took it to be a sign of the coming of the Messiah.
At the very least, even if the wise men were not Jewish, they would have
been influenced by Daniel's writings. At an earlier time, Daniel had been
in charge of all of the wise men in Babylon (Daniel 2:48; 4:9; 5:11).
The Star and the Feast of Tabernacles
There is one time of the year when Jews would typically look at the stars.
That time was during the Festival of Tabernacles. As we already said,
Jewish believers would build a tabernacle or booth known as a "sukkah" out
of green tree branches. They would eat their meals and sleep in this
sukkah for eight days. It was customary to leave a hole in the roof of the
sukkah so that one could look at the stars. Jewish "wise men" celebrating
the Feast of Tabernacles would have noticed the
appearance of a new star.
The year of Jesus' birth
Jesus was born while Herod the Great was still living (Matthew 2:1). Wise
men appeared in Jerusalem asking about "one who has been born king of the
Jews?" Of course, this upset Herod, who had been given that title by the
Roman Senate. Herod talked to the wise men secretly and found out from
them the exact time the star had appeared (Matthew 2:7). The wise men then
journeyed to Bethlehem and found Jesus,
Mary, and Joseph in a house (Matthew 2:11) and they bowed down and
worshiped Jesus.
When the wise men did not return to give Herod a report, "Herod
realized that he had been outwitted by the wise men. He was furious, and
he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were
two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from
the wise men" (Matthew 2:16).
This tells us that Jesus may have been born two years before the
appearance of the wise men and the death of Herod. Herod died the
spring of 4 B.C. Let's assume that the star appeared at Jesus' birth.
Let's also assume that Herod was already close to death when the wise men
appeared. It was the custom in ancient Israel to count the years of one's
age from the date of conception. Therefore, Herod actually killed the
children one year old and under according to the way that age is
calculated today. This would mean that Jesus had to have been born in 6
B.C. (if Jesus was one year old) or 5 B.C. (if Jesus was under one year
and Herod was just being extra careful).
This date for Jesus' birth fits with other Biblical data such as Jesus
being "about thirty years old" when He began his ministry (Luke 3:23).
From evidence given to us in John 2:20 about the construction of the
temple, we know Jesus' ministry began in A.D. 26. Counting forward from 6
B.C. to A.D. 26 (one year has to be subtracted because there is no year
zero) would make Jesus 31 years old when he began his
ministry -- that is, about thirty years old. Counting forward from 5 B.C.
to A.D. 26 would make Jesus 30 years old when he began his
ministry. The birth years of 5 or 6 B.C. also fit with the best date for
the crucifixion, that is A.D. 30. Personally I opt for the 5 B.C. date,
because I assume the wise men would want to come at once and the time for
a journey from Babylon to Jerusalem takes only four months.
When was Jesus born? Nothing is absolutely certain, because we are dealing
with implications and assumptions, but a best guess from the Scriptures
and history is September 29, 5 B.C.
Sources of Information for this Article:
The Gospel of Luke by William Hendriksen, Baker Book
House.
When was Jesus born? by Christian Renewal Ministries
International.
New Testament History by F.F. Bruce, Anchor Books.
When Was Jesus Christ Born? by Mario Seiglie, The Good
News, United Church of God, 1997.
The Companion Bible, Published by Kregel Publications.
Gods Festivals in Scripture and History, Part 2 by Samuele
Bacchiocchi, PhD.
Available from: Biblical Perspectives
4990 Appian Way
Berrien Springs, MI 49103
The purpose of this article is NOT to suggest that we change the day of
Christmas or the year of our calendars! It is to give added meaning and
insight to our Lord's birth, particularly from a Jewish perspective. If it
really mattered to Jesus when we celebrate His birth, then He would have
made the exact day crystal clear with absolute certainty.
The essential fact is that God did enflesh Himself in time and space (1
John 4:2). He was born from a woman on a specific day in a specific year,
walked among us, died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and ascended
into heaven.
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
Take my polls
http://ninure.100megsfree5.com
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
The Bible Site - help provide free scripture
http://www.thebiblesite.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.
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| User: "Tock" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
23 Dec 2004 01:58:39 PM |
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Dunno.
But I do know when Adam was born:
A little before "eve."
yuk yuk yuk . . .
-Tock
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
24 Dec 2004 05:17:39 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:45:27 +0000, Bill wrote:
Why on earth do people base their celebrations and whole lives on
unsubstantiated fairy tales like this?
Bad question. Restate and try again. The question presumes too many
things that have not been determined to be true.
We don't know when, (within five years ) that Christ was born. There is not
any hard evidence that he actually existed. The only evidence is tales in
the Bibles and the original texts of the Bibles no longer exist.
Who's "we"?
In short the whole Jesus story is based on 2,000 year old documents that are
copies of no longer existent originals.
Is this in doubt?
There is no proof or objective evidence that these collections of ancient
documents called the Bible are accurate history.
Nor is it relevant. Finding the city of Jericho, for instance, gave
historical credence to the Old Testament but does nothing to validate
whether or not there's a God.
God is claimed to be all powerful and creator of the heavens and the earth
and every thing in it.
By some people this is so, by others, not; and others do not know for sure
exactly what God can and cannot do.
Why did God use forty errant men to write the Bibles many years before and
after the death of Jesus?
If you believe that God does not exist, your question has no meaning. If
you DO believe God exists, then share with us which 40 men God used and
how it is that you know God used them. After all that, I suspect we will
still not be able to answer your question: WHY.
None were written extent during Jesus's life.
So you say. I have no information one way or the other.
Archaeological evidence shows that man has existed on earth for
approximately 150,000 years. Why did god wait almost 150,000 years to
communicate with his flock and then only to a very small fraction of mankind
through forty errant men?
I have no information suggesting that God waited 150,000 years; therefore
I also cannot answer the question WHY.
If Jesus and any god exists, why doesn't he communicate his existence,
wishes and demands clearly and directly via satellite TV or more effective
communication systems?
I do not know that God and Jesus are not using technology to communicate
his existence wishes and demands, therefore I cannot answer your question
WHY.
Conversely, twice a year Bonneville Broadcasting Corporation does exactly
as you suppose is not happening; and the existence, wishes and demands of
God are communicated vi satellite, printed media and the internet.
Only one person can answer any of your "Why does God..." questions, and
that is (of course) God. Asking on alt.atheism for answers to God
questions is not likely to produce useful answers!
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
25 Dec 2004 03:33:24 AM |
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On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:17:39 GMT, Michael <newsuser@orneveien.org>
wrote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:45:27 +0000, Bill wrote:
Why on earth do people base their celebrations and whole lives on
unsubstantiated fairy tales like this?
Bad question. Restate and try again. The question presumes too many
things that have not been determined to be true.
We don't know when, (within five years ) that Christ was born. There is not
any hard evidence that he actually existed. The only evidence is tales in
the Bibles and the original texts of the Bibles no longer exist.
Who's "we"?
Everybody. Nobody knows.
In short the whole Jesus story is based on 2,000 year old documents that are
copies of no longer existent originals.
Is this in doubt?
Obviously not. Needs stating though.
There is no proof or objective evidence that these collections of ancient
documents called the Bible are accurate history.
Nor is it relevant. Finding the city of Jericho, for instance, gave
historical credence to the Old Testament but does nothing to validate
whether or not there's a God.
Obfuscation. He was writing about the historical accuracy of
the Bible in that sentence not whether there is a god or not.
God is claimed to be all powerful and creator of the heavens and the earth
and every thing in it.
By some people this is so, by others, not; and others do not know for sure
exactly what God can and cannot do.
If you do not know what this god can or cannot do, any claims about
this gods 'powers' must therefore be invention and wishful thinking.
Why did God use forty errant men to write the Bibles many years before and
after the death of Jesus?
If you believe that God does not exist, your question has no meaning. If
you DO believe God exists, then share with us which 40 men God used and
how it is that you know God used them. After all that, I suspect we will
still not be able to answer your question: WHY.
None were written extent during Jesus's life.
So you say. I have no information one way or the other.
Honest and true answer.
Archaeological evidence shows that man has existed on earth for
approximately 150,000 years. Why did god wait almost 150,000 years to
communicate with his flock and then only to a very small fraction of mankind
through forty errant men?
I have no information suggesting that God waited 150,000 years; therefore
I also cannot answer the question WHY.
Honest answer
If Jesus and any god exists, why doesn't he communicate his existence,
wishes and demands clearly and directly via satellite TV or more effective
communication systems?
I do not know that God and Jesus are not using technology to communicate
his existence wishes and demands, therefore I cannot answer your question
WHY.
It does suggest that their is no god or, if this god chooses never to
communicate with us it is irrelevant to our lives.
Conversely, twice a year Bonneville Broadcasting Corporation does exactly
as you suppose is not happening; and the existence, wishes and demands of
God are communicated vi satellite, printed media and the internet.
Only one person can answer any of your "Why does God..." questions, and
that is (of course) God. Asking on alt.atheism for answers to God
questions is not likely to produce useful answers!
Except perhaps there is no god. We would be doing the world a great
service I think if we could convince everybody to stop believing
there are gods or god. We do not try of course prefering the world to
come to us for help. Unlike religion we do not thrust our view on the
world and knock on people doors.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
24 Dec 2004 05:24:22 PM |
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On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:17:39 GMT, Michael <newsuser@orneveien.org>
wrote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:45:27 +0000, Bill wrote:
Why on earth do people base their celebrations and whole lives on
unsubstantiated fairy tales like this?
Bad question. Restate and try again. The question presumes too many
things that have not been determined to be true.
What? The fact that it is unsubstantiated fairy tale? Feel fee to
demonstrate that it actually happened. What's that? You can't? Then it
remains unsubstantiated fairy tale.
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
26 Dec 2004 11:54:55 AM |
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On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:45:27 GMT, "Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
Why on earth do people base their celebrations and whole lives on
unsubstantiated fairy tales like this?
It's cultural.
Unfortunately some people are too immersed in it it they can't
partition between religion mode and real life.
.
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
29 Dec 2004 09:25:57 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:45:27 GMT, "Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
Never
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
23 Dec 2004 04:43:02 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:45:27 GMT, "Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Why on earth do people base their celebrations and whole lives on
unsubstantiated fairy tales like this?
What do you mean "unsubstantiated"? Christ was a man that walked the earth just like you
and me, well, maybe me, and was seen and touched by many other men of his day.
We don't know when, (within five years ) that Christ was born. There is not
any hard evidence that he actually existed. The only evidence is tales in
the Bibles and the original texts of the Bibles no longer exist.
Nobody is alive from the days of the American Revolution either.
In short the whole Jesus story is based on 2,000 year old documents that are
copies of no longer existent originals.
Documents, yes, but many personal contacts also.
There is no proof or objective evidence that these collections of ancient
documents called the Bible are accurate history. As a minimum they are
abstruse mixture of history, allegories, fables, folk tales and contain many
contradictions.
There is objective evidence galore. In fact, just as definitive as the American
Revolution.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
12 Jan 2005 03:56:39 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:s9ims0dtdhf9c4flvk41sgn19bo4mc5g6u@4ax.com...
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:45:27 GMT, "Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Why on earth do people base their celebrations and whole lives on
unsubstantiated fairy tales like this?
What do you mean "unsubstantiated"? Christ was a man that walked the
earth just like you
and me, well, maybe me, and was seen and touched by many other men of his
day.
In your and the "opinion" of other errant men. There is NO objective
evidence.
We don't know when, (within five years ) that Christ was born. There is
not
any hard evidence that he actually existed. The only evidence is tales in
the Bibles and the original texts of the Bibles no longer exist.
Nobody is alive from the days of the American Revolution either.
There are volumes of books, pictures, equipment etc. that substantiate the
Civil War with reasonable degree of accuracy.
NO such evidence exists to substantiate Jesus Christ as a God.
If Jesus Christ is the son of God and is a God why doesn't he announce this
via modern
TV and radio to the whole world. Why does he permit thousands of other phony
religions to
claim they represent the real God??
In short the whole Jesus story is based on 2,000 year old documents that
are
copies of no longer existent originals.
Documents, yes, but many personal contacts also.
What personal contacts. Your dealing with claims, not facts, from 2500 years
ago.
There is no proof or objective evidence that these collections of ancient
documents called the Bible are accurate history. As a minimum they are
abstruse mixture of history, allegories, fables, folk tales and contain
many
contradictions.
There is objective evidence galore. In fact, just as definitive as the
American
Revolution.
Ok Duke, what is this OBJECTIVE PROOF OF ANY GODS??
Who but some mentally disturbed have ever seen or heard one?
The Bibles are largely fables and allegory - not objective evidence of
anything.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****
.
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| User: "Victoria Hirt" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
24 Dec 2004 06:57:15 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:43:02 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:45:27 GMT, "Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Why on earth do people base their celebrations and whole lives on
unsubstantiated fairy tales like this?
What do you mean "unsubstantiated"? Christ was a man that walked the earth just like you
and me, well, maybe me, and was seen and touched by many other men of his day.
He means that there is no historical proof that Christ existed.
We don't know when, (within five years ) that Christ was born. There is not
any hard evidence that he actually existed. The only evidence is tales in
the Bibles and the original texts of the Bibles no longer exist.
Nobody is alive from the days of the American Revolution either.
True, but we do have actual documents from that time.
In short the whole Jesus story is based on 2,000 year old documents that are
copies of no longer existent originals.
Documents, yes, but many personal contacts also.
But personal contacts are notoriously false.
There is no proof or objective evidence that these collections of ancient
documents called the Bible are accurate history. As a minimum they are
abstruse mixture of history, allegories, fables, folk tales and contain many
contradictions.
There is objective evidence galore.
Where? In the vaults under the Vatican? That's probably the first
place to look.
In fact, just as definitive as the American
Revolution.
Try again. We have actual documents from that time. We have
paintings from that time depicting the American Revolution. We have
countless artifacts that we know for a fact belong to that time and to
this event.
The only freedom tyranny offers is the freedom to submit.
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
25 Dec 2004 03:53:04 AM |
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Curiously it has been stated:
Nobody is alive from the days of the American Revolution either.
True, but we do have actual documents from that time.
I know the US cessession from the greatest Country on
Earth is remembered with great reverence over there but surely it has
not been elevated to a supernatural event? It actually happened,
it must have happened at some time, as you would not now
be out in the cold and still part of our great Commonwealth.
Even we have a considerable body of evidence in our archives
to demonstrate it happened. Whereas all the Bible pusher have
is the Bible a very dubious document indeed.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
26 Dec 2004 07:14:57 AM |
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On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:53:04 +0000, Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Curiously it has been stated:
Nobody is alive from the days of the American Revolution either.
True, but we do have actual documents from that time.
I know the US cessession from the greatest Country on
Earth is remembered with great reverence over there but surely it has
not been elevated to a supernatural event? It actually happened,
it must have happened at some time, as you would not now
be out in the cold and still part of our great Commonwealth.
Even we have a considerable body of evidence in our archives
to demonstrate it happened. Whereas all the Bible pusher have
is the Bible a very dubious document indeed.
Wrong, good bud les. Whereas the bible represents the actual eye witness accounts of
others recorded for prosperity, we also have the writings of the other great early Church
Fathers.
Furthermore, and the greatest demonstration of all of the truths of Jesus Christ, is it
was all a fake, it would have died out quickly. However, the truth has flourished for
2000 years not where it has grown from 13 believers to over 2 billion people alive and
well today.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
26 Dec 2004 07:59:59 AM |
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On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:14:57 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:53:04 +0000, Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Curiously it has been stated:
Nobody is alive from the days of the American Revolution either.
True, but we do have actual documents from that time.
I know the US cessession from the greatest Country on
Earth is remembered with great reverence over there but surely it has
not been elevated to a supernatural event? It actually happened,
it must have happened at some time, as you would not now
be out in the cold and still part of our great Commonwealth.
Even we have a considerable body of evidence in our archives
to demonstrate it happened. Whereas all the Bible pusher have
is the Bible a very dubious document indeed.
Wrong, good bud les. Whereas the bible represents the actual eye witness accounts of
others recorded for prosperity, we also have the writings of the other great early Church
Fathers.
Many believing theologians who have studied the Bible and its origins
would beg to disagree, Writing of early Church Fathers are not eye
witness accounts and of no value should you seek the historical truth
of Christs life.
I am not one of those who denies Christ ever existed just that the
evidence of his life is very thin and has been embellished down the
ages to suit the desires of others. I would very much doubt that
Christ would recognise what has been claimed.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
26 Dec 2004 08:51:19 AM |
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On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:59:59 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:14:57 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:53:04 +0000, Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Curiously it has been stated:
Nobody is alive from the days of the American Revolution either.
True, but we do have actual documents from that time.
I know the US cessession from the greatest Country on
Earth is remembered with great reverence over there but surely it has
not been elevated to a supernatural event? It actually happened,
it must have happened at some time, as you would not now
be out in the cold and still part of our great Commonwealth.
Even we have a considerable body of evidence in our archives
to demonstrate it happened. Whereas all the Bible pusher have
is the Bible a very dubious document indeed.
Wrong, good bud les. Whereas the bible represents the actual eye witness accounts of
others recorded for prosperity, we also have the writings of the other great early Church
Fathers.
Many believing theologians who have studied the Bible and its origins
would beg to disagree, Writing of early Church Fathers are not eye
witness accounts and of no value should you seek the historical truth
of Christs life.
I am not one of those who denies Christ ever existed just that the
evidence of his life is very thin and has been embellished down the
ages to suit the desires of others. I would very much doubt that
Christ would recognise what has been claimed.
In spite of the pretence by believers, nobody "denies that Christ ever
existed". The actual and justified position is that there is no
evidence and therefore no reason to assume he did - especially when
they have had 2000 years to produce whatever evidence they had, and
only been able to come up with an obvious forgery.
Believers turn this into an emotionally prejudicial caricature - and
one version is the "denies Christ ever existed" strawman you cited.
Which presumes without any justification that he existed and that we
deny it. In reality nobody would give a toss about it if Christians
kept it to themselves. The only reason most of us have even heard of
Josephus of read the Testimonium Flavinium is believers' feeble
attempts to back up what they can't justify but insist we take
seriously.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
26 Dec 2004 01:10:48 PM |
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On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:59:59 +0000, Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Wrong, good bud les. Whereas the bible represents the actual eye witness accounts of
others recorded for prosperity, we also have the writings of the other great early Church
Fathers.
Many believing theologians who have studied the Bible and its origins
would beg to disagree, Writing of early Church Fathers are not eye
witness accounts and of no value should you seek the historical truth
of Christs life.
Of course they were. Of early development of the new church. That's the point you miss.
At first, 13 men professed the truth of what they were personally witness to. They talked
and acted and promoted and scribbled and noted and passed these on to those that finally
made a more formal recording of the events.
Every one of you atheists tries to do the same thing - apply some faulty notion or
approach, the lack thereof declares falsehood.
One atheist says he must personally recognize the name of the witness, another makes the
silly mistake of saying there were no eye witnesses at all, another professes that there
is no writings for 100 years..
It's all pagan bs. The truth is that God became man 2000 years ago to redeem man from his
sin, and to restore salvation to his soul.
If you don't want to buy it, don't. But you're not convincing anyone other than another
pagan.
I am not one of those who denies Christ ever existed just that the
evidence of his life is very thin and has been embellished down the
ages to suit the desires of others. I would very much doubt that
Christ would recognise what has been claimed.
As your final statement is meaningless. But if that is what you choose to believe, go for
it. It's your funeral, not mine.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
26 Dec 2004 01:32:08 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:53:04 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Curiously it has been stated:
Nobody is alive from the days of the American Revolution either.
True, but we do have actual documents from that time.
I know the US cessession from the greatest Country on
Earth is remembered with great reverence over there but surely it has
not been elevated to a supernatural event? It actually happened,
it must have happened at some time, as you would not now
be out in the cold and still part of our great Commonwealth.
Even we have a considerable body of evidence in our archives
to demonstrate it happened. Whereas all the Bible pusher have
is the Bible a very dubious document indeed.
Wrong, good bud les. Whereas the bible represents the actual eye witness
accounts of others recorded for prosperity, we also have the writings of
the other great early Church Fathers.
There are no eyewitness reports in the bible.
That's why everything in it seems to be wrong,but still you are
too stupid to figure it out.
Contradictions of the gospels,
Jesus and his apostles and ascension.
Mark 16
Jesus meets Mary Magdalene, then two
unnamed disciples. He appears to the
eleven remaining apostles who are hiding
in a room in Jerusalem. He speaks to them
and then "..after the lord had spoken to
them he was recieved up into heaven."
Matthew 28.
Jesus is never in Jerusalem at all. He sends
word that the apostles are to meet him in
Galilee, "Then the eleven disciples went into
Galilee into a mountain Jesus had appointed
them."
No ascension to heaven is mentioned at all.
Luke 24
Jesus appears to two unnamed disciples,
then to the eleven apostles in Jerusalem.
The apostles are told to stay in Jerusalem until
they are "endued with power from on high".
He then leads them out to a village named Bethany
and ascends to heaven from there.
They return to Jerusalem and are "continually
in the temple".
John 20
Jesus appears twice to his apostles, once in
Jerusalem. Then in Galilee at the sea of Tiberius.
No ascension to heaven is mentioned.
Acts 1.
He appears to his apostles in Jerusalem and is
there forty days. They are commanded not to
depart Jerusalem. At Mount Olivet, Jesus is
purported to have ascended to heaven, and the
apostles return to Jerusalem.
Basically, no two 'gospels' even come close
to agreeing with one another on 'facts' on what
is obviously one of the most momentous claims
ever made. Obviously the claims must therefore
be false. These are not claims of eyewitnesses,
apostles, no anybody with the faintest knowledge
of anything about any of this.
*********
Furthermore, and the greatest demonstration of all of the truths of Jesus
Christ, is it
was all a fake, it would have died out quickly. However, the truth has
flourished for 2000 years not where it has grown from 13 believers to over
2 billion people alive and well today.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****
--
Dance, monkeys, dance!
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
26 Dec 2004 05:01:16 PM |
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On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:32:08 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
There are no eyewitness reports in the bible.
What do you think it is then?
That's why everything in it seems to be wrong,but still you are
too stupid to figure it out.
Seems??? YOu're not very positive, are you? And maybe you're the one too stupid to
figure out the truth.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
27 Dec 2004 02:35:25 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:32:08 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
There are no eyewitness reports in the bible.
What do you think it is then?
Bare bone rumors dressed up in lies made up by
liars. That is why no two of the four gospels
gets anything right or agrees with the others on
very important and large claims.
What happened the morning of the third day? Did
one woman or more go to the tomb? Did they flee in
fear and tell no man, or tell eleven apostles, or
was it two apostles?
Did jesus ascend to heaven from a room in Jerusalem almost
immediately, or was he never in Jerusalem at all as per Matthew?
Or did he not ascend at all as per John and Matthew?
Why all those stupid claims of miracle working ability when
nobody works miracles as claimed in Mark 11, John 14,
Matthew 18:19?
And if you morons out there really belive any of this
idiot gospel crap, why do you all of you, almost every
last one of you, ignore most of what Christ told you
to do?
You are all idiots. Aren't you?
You get these facts thrust in your ugly
faces and your brains turn off.
Contradictions in the gospels.
Mark 16
Three women go to the tomb. The tomb stone
is rolled away and one "young man" is inside
is sitting on the "right side". The women
are fearful, flee the tomb and "tell no man",
"for they were afraid".
Matthew 28.
Its two women and they find the tombstone in
place. An earthquake happens, an angel descends,
dramtically rolls the stone away and sits on it.
They meet Jesus and hug his feet.
He tells them to tell the apostles to meet him
in Galilee, which the apostles believe and in fact
do, believing the women.
Luke 21.
Its five or more women, and the tomb is open.
inside they find two men standing. They go
and tell eleven apostles who do not believe
them, thinking their story is an "idle tale".
John 20.
Only Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb. No other women.
She finds it open and tells two, not eleven
apostles. Who believe her and race each other to be
first to the tomb.
They leave and she goes back and then meets Jesus.
She is told not to touch him as he is not yet
ascended.
In Luke, the later tale Peter then does go to
the tomb is not in early manuscripts. Its a later
addition, meant to somewhat harmonize Luke and
John.
Matthew has a ludicrous tale of soldiers bribed to
say they slept on duty and the disciples stole the
body. Since sleeping on duty was a capitol crime
for soldiers of that day, this is impossible, no
soldier was sign his own death warrant.
Soldiers are singularly lacking in Mark,
Luke and John. As are earthquakes and angels
rolling away stones and dramatically sitting
on them.
--
Dance, monkeys, dance!
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
27 Dec 2004 06:04:34 AM |
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On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 02:35:25 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Bare bone rumors dressed up in lies made up by
liars. That is why no two of the four gospels
gets anything right or agrees with the others on
very important and large claims.
Yet those things are not the very important and large claims. You're referencing the
unimportant things like the scene at the tomb on Easter morning - was there 2 angels or 1,
inside or outside, were the soldiers asleep or did they run away, did Mary keep quite or
did she tell everyone.
The spiritual and inerrant message is "He is risen".
What happened the morning of the third day? Did
one woman or more go to the tomb? Did they flee in
fear and tell no man, or tell eleven apostles, or
was it two apostles?
See, that's not the important things like I told you above.
Did jesus ascend to heaven from a room in Jerusalem almost
immediately, or was he never in Jerusalem at all as per Matthew?
Or did he not ascend at all as per John and Matthew?
He was accompanied by 500+ of his disciples for 40 days then ascended to the Father.
Why all those stupid claims of miracle working ability when
nobody works miracles as claimed in Mark 11, John 14,
Matthew 18:19?
How do you know?
And if you morons out there really belive any of this
idiot gospel crap, why do you all of you, almost every
last one of you, ignore most of what Christ told you
to do?
We don't. Is there something else besides John 13:34 that you're thinking about?
You are all idiots. Aren't you?
You get these facts thrust in your ugly
faces and your brains turn off.
Contradictions in the gospels.
Mark 16
Three women go to the tomb. The tomb stone
is rolled away and one "young man" is inside
is sitting on the "right side". The women
are fearful, flee the tomb and "tell no man",
"for they were afraid".
Matthew 28.
Its two women and they find the tombstone in
place. An earthquake happens, an angel descends,
dramtically rolls the stone away and sits on it.
They meet Jesus and hug his feet.
He tells them to tell the apostles to meet him
in Galilee, which the apostles believe and in fact
do, believing the women.
Luke 21.
Its five or more women, and the tomb is open.
inside they find two men standing. They go
and tell eleven apostles who do not believe
them, thinking their story is an "idle tale".
John 20.
Only Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb. No other women.
She finds it open and tells two, not eleven
apostles. Who believe her and race each other to be
first to the tomb.
They leave and she goes back and then meets Jesus.
She is told not to touch him as he is not yet
ascended.
In Luke, the later tale Peter then does go to
the tomb is not in early manuscripts. Its a later
addition, meant to somewhat harmonize Luke and
John.
Matthew has a ludicrous tale of soldiers bribed to
say they slept on duty and the disciples stole the
body. Since sleeping on duty was a capitol crime
for soldiers of that day, this is impossible, no
soldier was sign his own death warrant.
Soldiers are singularly lacking in Mark,
Luke and John. As are earthquakes and angels
rolling away stones and dramatically sitting
on them.
Gotcha.
Just like I told you so many times in the past - What is inerrant is the revealed and
inerrant word of God re the redemption for our sin and to restore salvation to our souls.
The rest are war stories written by man in his own handwriting.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
27 Dec 2004 08:53:52 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 02:35:25 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Bare bone rumors dressed up in lies made up by
liars. That is why no two of the four gospels
gets anything right or agrees with the others on
very important and large claims.
Yet those things are not the very important and large claims. You're
referencing the unimportant things like the scene at the tomb on Easter
morning - was there 2 angels or 1, inside or outside, were the soldiers
asleep or did they run away, did Mary keep quite or did she tell everyone.
Yes, they are and obviously false claims.
No resurrection, no ascension to heaven.
Just a jumble of outlandish lies. And desperate xians trying
to pretend, it all means something. But it doesn't.
Its important, did Jesus ascend to heaven from a room in Jerusalem,
(Mark) or was he never in Jerusalem at all (Matthew).
Did three women go to the tomb and flee, or was it one woman
whol told two apostles who bleived her? Or was it five or more
women who told 11 apostles and were not believed.
All of it is lies. Obviously.
And we have the bizarre promises of great miracle working
abilities promised by Jesus that fail utterly.
This is a deeply stupid fake religion only for deeply stupid
people like you.
Desperately trying to pretend its all real. But it isn't,
you are wasting your life with crap.
Its like old pagans trying to prop up failed religions,
Mithraism, Zeus, all the failed myths. Its a dying religion,
living on only to the extent that masses of people remain ignorant
and infantile.
But it too will fade like the old pagan religions, Duke.
Its just too stupid, to false, to obviously wrong.
********************************************
Mark 11:23-4
For verily I say this unto you, That
whosoever shall say unto this mountain,
Be thou removed, and be thou cast
into the sea; and shall not doubt
in his heart, but shall believe that
those things which he saith shall
come to pass; he shall have whatsoever
he saith.
Therefore I say unto you, What things
soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe
ye recieve them and ye shall have them.
Matthew 18:19-20
Again I say unto you, that if two
of you shall agree on earth as
touching anything that they shall
ask, it shall be done for them of
my father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered
in my name, there I am in the midst
of them.
Matthew 21:22
And all things,whatsoever ye shall ask
in prayer, believeing, ye shall recieve.
John 14:12-14
12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that
believeth on me, the works that I do shall he
do also; and greater works than these shall
he do;because I go unto my Father.
13: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name,
that will I do, that the Father may be
glorified in the Son.
14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name,
I will do it.
***********************************************
The spiritual and inerrant message is "He is risen".
What happened the morning of the third day? Did
one woman or more go to the tomb? Did they flee in
fear and tell no man, or tell eleven apostles, or
was it two apostles?
See, that's not the important things like I told you above.
Did jesus ascend to heaven from a room in Jerusalem almost
immediately, or was he never in Jerusalem at all as per Matthew?
Or did he not ascend at all as per John and Matthew?
He was accompanied by 500+ of his disciples for 40 days then ascended to
the Father.
Why all those stupid claims of miracle working ability when
nobody works miracles as claimed in Mark 11, John 14,
Matthew 18:19?
How do you know?
And if you morons out there really belive any of this
idiot gospel crap, why do you all of you, almost every
last one of you, ignore most of what Christ told you
to do?
We don't. Is there something else besides John 13:34 that you're thinking
about?
You are all idiots. Aren't you?
You get these facts thrust in your ugly
faces and your brains turn off.
Contradictions in the gospels.
Mark 16
Three women go to the tomb. The tomb stone
is rolled away and one "young man" is inside
is sitting on the "right side". The women
are fearful, flee the tomb and "tell no man",
"for they were afraid".
Matthew 28.
Its two women and they find the tombstone in
place. An earthquake happens, an angel descends,
dramtically rolls the stone away and sits on it.
They meet Jesus and hug his feet.
He tells them to tell the apostles to meet him
in Galilee, which the apostles believe and in fact
do, believing the women.
Luke 21.
Its five or more women, and the tomb is open.
inside they find two men standing. They go
and tell eleven apostles who do not believe
them, thinking their story is an "idle tale".
John 20.
Only Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb. No other women.
She finds it open and tells two, not eleven
apostles. Who believe her and race each other to be
first to the tomb.
They leave and she goes back and then meets Jesus.
She is told not to touch him as he is not yet
ascended.
In Luke, the later tale Peter then does go to
the tomb is not in early manuscripts. Its a later
addition, meant to somewhat harmonize Luke and
John.
Matthew has a ludicrous tale of soldiers bribed to
say they slept on duty and the disciples stole the
body. Since sleeping on duty was a capitol crime
for soldiers of that day, this is impossible, no
soldier was sign his own death warrant.
Soldiers are singularly lacking in Mark,
Luke and John. As are earthquakes and angels
rolling away stones and dramatically sitting
on them.
Gotcha.
Just like I told you so many times in the past - What is inerrant is the
revealed and inerrant word of God re the redemption for our sin and to
restore salvation to our souls.
The rest are war stories written by man in his own handwriting.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****
--
Dance, monkeys, dance!
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
27 Dec 2004 05:51:52 PM |
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On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:53:52 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
duke wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 02:35:25 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Bare bone rumors dressed up in lies made up by
liars. That is why no two of the four gospels
gets anything right or agrees with the others on
very important and large claims.
Yet those things are not the very important and large claims. You're
referencing the unimportant things like the scene at the tomb on Easter
morning - was there 2 angels or 1, inside or outside, were the soldiers
asleep or did they run away, did Mary keep quite or did she tell everyone.
Yes, they are and obviously false claims.
Nope, of no real value.
It doesn't matter whether there were 2 angels or one, and whether they were outside or
inside. Except to a knucklehead like you.
All of it is lies. Obviously.
Not a chance, much to your atheists desires.
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
27 Dec 2004 11:25:20 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:53:52 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:
duke wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 02:35:25 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:
Bare bone rumors dressed up in lies made up by
liar s. That is why no two of the four gospels
gets anything right or agrees with the others on
very important and large claims.
Yet those things are not the very important and large claims.
You're
referencing the unimportant things like the scene at the tomb on
Easter
morning - was there 2 angels or 1, inside or outside, were the
soldiers
asleep or did they run away, did Mary keep quite or did she tell
everyone.
Yes, they are and obviously false claims.
Nope, of no real value.
It doesn't matter whether there were 2 angels or one, and whether
they were outside or
inside. Except to a knucklehead like you.
Word games: exactly what the Duke falsely accuses
me of. Ironic, no? Duke is denying the wrong
argument, one that wasn't made: he attacks a straw
man. Obviously contradictory accounts can't all be
true and maybe none of them are. If Duke accepts
this very shaky and flawed "evidence" as proving
Jesus, then he would also have to accept the much
better evidence of the testimony of the entire Roman
Senate to witnessing Augustus ascend into heaven
upon his death. I mean to be consistent. But of course
Duke isn't consistent. He doesn't want to accept
any supernatural claims except those from his
religion. Ergo he is committing the logical
fallacy of special pleading here.
As for who the knucklehead is, it is Duke who
can't support his claims and tries to make up for
that by simply projecting a phony attitude of
certainty in what he wants to be true, pretending it
is a viable substitute for reasons and evidence.
Want some examples Duke?=20
=86
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? |
27 Dec 2004 08:35:18 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:53:52 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
duke wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 02:35:25 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Bare bone rumors dressed up in lies made up by
liars. That is why no two of the four gospels
gets anything right or agrees with the others on
very important and large claims.
Yet those things are not the very important and large claims. You're
referencing the unimportant things like the scene at the tomb on Easter
morning - was there 2 angels or 1, inside or outside, were the soldiers
asleep or did they run away, did Mary keep quite or did she tell
everyone.
Yes, they are and obviously false claims.
Nope, of no real value.
Sorry, but your willful stupidity here is just that.
Stupidity.
These totally differing tall tales prove conclusively,
these men were liars.
You can chant "Nope Nope Nope" repeately, that just shows
you are a willful moron.
And this is what is disgusting and evil about religion, it
turns fools into morions without a single trace of intellectual
honesty or capability.
It makes them into morons like you. Liars to the bone.
The Contradictions of the Infant narratives.
Two 'gospels' contain "Infant Narratives" of Luke
and Matthew. Mark and John lack any mention of the
earliest days of Jesus.
Both set out to solve a problem. Messianic Jews of
that day quoted Isaiah that the Messiah would come
from Bethlehem from the lineage of David.
Jesus was well known to be a Galilean, so a myth
had to be made up to show Jesus was born at Bethlehem
and how he came to be at Galilee from a young age.
Matthew Had Jesus born in his home city of
Bethlehem and then fleeing to Galilee.
Luke had his home as Galilee, he uses the
preposterous taxing of Augustus as a scheme to
get Jesus to Bethlehem to be born. Away from
their home.
In Matthew Jesus is born at home.
Herod, warned by magi of a new king
comands all children be killed in Bethlehem.
Jospeh and Mary warned in a dream
flee to Egypt.
This shows another reason for the myth making,
using the myth to fit to other 'prophecies'
from verses found in the OT. Jesus is called
forth from Egypt to fit prophecy.
Rather than return home to Bethlehem,
for fear of Herod Archelaus, the dead Herod's
successor, "He turned aside into parts of Galilee.
And came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth:
that it might be fulfilled that which was spoken of
the prophets, that he shall be called a Nazarene."
Of course the word is not Nazarene but Nazarite,
which is what Samson was, a Nazarite was one
dedicated to god who did not cut the hair on their
head and other odd restrictions they followed.
Which is why Jesus is always portrayed as having
long hair.
Luke has a different tale.
There, they dwelt in Galilee at Nazareth.
They are caused, by the taxing under Augustus
to go to city of Bethlehem.
Of course there was no such taxing, no such mandating
moving of people such as this. Its just a scheme by
Luke to find away to get Jesus to Bethlehem.
Once born there, Mary and Joseph are there for 33 days,
the ritual period of purification after a birth.
There is no Herod killing children,
No Dream, no flight to Egypt.
No Magi, astrologers and no Herod.
After 33 days they instead, go to the temple, and
present Jesus there "to the Lord".
Here Luke takes his turn at prophecy faking, putting
prophecies in the mouths of characters at the temple,
one Simon, and "Anna, a prophetess". One suspects
propbably based on real and known characters of that
time.
They then return to their home in Galilee.
Luke 2:39.
"And when they had performed all things
according to the law of the Lord, they
returned into Galilee, to their own city,
Nazareth"
Compare to Matthew 2:22-3
But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in
Judea in the room of his father, Herod, he was
afraid to go hither. Not withstanding, being
warned in a dream, he turned aside in parts of
Galilee.
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth;
thatit might be fulfiled that was spoken by the
prophets: He shall be called a Nazarene.
The Geneologies.
Both Luke and Matthew start their gospels off with
fake geneologies.
Luke 3:24 has a genology starting with Joseph, son of Heli,
going back to Adam
Luke has 14 X 4 names, 56 total.
Matthew has a list 14 + 14 + 14 generations explicitly,
for a total of 42, though by miscount or bad manuscript
along the way, there are only 41 names.
Luke has Jesus descended from David through his son
Nathan.
John by contrast has Jesus descend from David's son
Solomon.
Its obvious that to fit the prophecy a messiah would
descend from David inspired these frauds and both men
made a choice as to what son of David Jesus descended
through and unfortunately, both picked a different
son of David when they wrote their fake genealogies.
Luke
Jesus
Joseph son of Heli
Heli
Mathat
Levi
....
Matthew
Jesus
Joseph
Jacob
Matthan
Eliazor
....
They don't even get the immediate ancestors of Jesus
right.
Matthew uses the begat form, Jacob begat Matthan,
Matthan begat Eliazor.. etc.
Luke uses the "son of" form, Joeseph was was the son of
Heli, which was the son of Mathat, and so on.
Both forms show explicitly that this was supposed
to be a male branch geneaology, debunking the
ludicrous apologism one was a geneaology of Mary's
side of the family.
These genealogies are as fake as the tales
and just as contradictory. Both men wrote in isolation
of each other and so naturally the tales don't match.
Both were written to fill a gap in the story of Jesus
and to battle sceptical messianic Jews who pointed
out Jesus did not fit prophetic descriptions of the
long awaited Messiah.
These were not written by eyewitnesses, not by apostles,
not by honest and truthful men.
--
Dance, monkeys, dance!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: (~) When was Jesus Born? | | | | | | |