On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:00:42 -0700, "Precision"
<precision@usenet.com> spake thusly:

You're absolutely right, Christendom's requirements for ordaining
ministers
are rather lax. I hear some become ordained ministers as a tax dodge.

Some probably do. Although their salary would still
be taxable. But I guess they could buy their car and
put it under the church's name, etc.. But if that's
the only reason they do it, then shame on them! (:

But it isn't "Christendom's requirements". It has to do
with what people do and not what Christianity says.

This is not a thing where people are supposed to be
put through a secular ringer to be able to live the
calling that God called them for.

While people, even those in churches, think that there
should be multiple requirements and degrees to become
a minister, the reality is, those are men's requirements,
not God's. Let's zoom back to the original church and
we see no such requirements. Hop ahead a couple of
generations and there weren't any Apostles left and
no "Christian seminaries" to attend either. Now what?

You see, that is what nobody wants to look at, because
for those who think school is a miracle and for those
who are attending these schools, pride gets in the way.

I think these schools (most of them anyway), are great.
I have absolutely nothing against schools and yes,
I've taken courses, but school isn't what makes someone
a minister. In fact, even if you graduate with a
doctorate, you are still not a minister. There are
atheists who graduate courses in theology, or in
comparative religion, who never get ordained and
there are Christians who graduate and become
teachers, or do nothing with it.

Typically, one goes out and looks for a position
in a church and it is the church that ordains you
as a minister. This is based on the idea that in
the New Testament, men of God laid hands on
those they sent out. And Bishops, etc., were put
into those positions, originally, by the Apostles,
or sometimes, by pastors, Timothy being one
example and although the NT never specifically
calls him a pastor, this seems to be the message
being put across.

But even the churches today place a bunch of
requirements on people that shouldn't be there.
Especially if they are not pastoring at least a
medium size church already. And what is really
hypocritical, is that these churches, which almost
always start out as home churches, which is what
we see in the New Testament, turn their noses up. (:

I have a friend who attends a Pentecostal church.
He was starting a program there, with their
permission, for the homeless people to gather
each week and have a study and help them grow
as Christians and to share regarding what's going
on with them and it would be a meeting in which
they could share whatever is on their minds and
who knows, maybe a way to help them with their
physical needs could be found.

So he approached me, as an ordained minister
and as a friend and asked me if I would help
him out with it, figuring that I could help him
organize it and help him run it properly. So of
course I said yes and attended the first meeting,
which went very well. :)

I'll tell you, there is nothing more humbling
than seeing these men, who had no idea where
they were going to sleep that night, nor where
their next meal was coming from, gather to
worship God and share with others! I wished
I could take a couple of them home with me
and help them with a place to live, but
unfortunately, my landlady would never allow
it and I'd be on the street, if I tried to do that. (:

Anyway, the first meeting went well and I was
able to see a physical need also, that I was able
to help out with. I don't say that to brag. Just
to let you know that we didn't plan on ignoring
their physical needs and wanted to help out,
if we could.

But after this first meeting, when my friend
reported to the pastors of that church how
things went, they told him that I could not
be part of it, because I wasn't part of their
church. He told them that I am an ordained
minister, who was simply looking to help out.
They said that if I wanted to become a member
of their church and then study what they
required and then maybe become an associate
pastor in their church in a couple of years,
etc., etc..

Huh?!?!?! And the real hypocrisy of this was,
that my friend who started this program up
and whose idea it was to start it, is not an
ordained minister. :)

It seems to me, that someone felt threatened by
another pastor coming into their church and
helping to run this program, since it wasn't
the head pastor who was the person that my
friend had to report to, but an associate pastor.
Maybe he felt threatened or something, I don't
know. He claimed it was about accountability
to their church for what was going on in the
meetings. But isn't that why a report would be
given after each meeting? And who would ever
stop a visiting pastor from coming in and
helping out?

I don't know, maybe what they said about accountability
makes sense, since I'm not part of their church and this
is an ongoing program, but the part about my becoming
a member, studying what they wanted me to study and
then having to work my way up the pastoral ranks in
their church, watching years go by to be what I already
am, just so I could help out with one program there,
seemed to me, to be an issue that was much bigger than
just accountability. It seemed to me that someone felt
threatened. But I could be wrong.

So here we have a case of requirements being placed
on someone, because of what men want to claim is
needed and has nothing to do with what God has said.

Anyway, my point is, that it isn't about what men
require. It is about who God calls and if He calls
a man to the ministry, whether it be in a specific
church, or as a "floating minister", as Timothy was,
men cannot stop what God ordains. And while there
may be many who seek to corrupt the title and put
their own requirements on it, that makes no difference
to those who are called by God.

And while they turn their noses up at home churches,
they forget that almost every church today, started as
a home church. It's just that now, in many of them,
the original pastor is no longer there and so, they
tend to forget all about their own beginning. (:

And I personally have no problem with those who are
ordained through the Internet. If a man of God has
been lead to lay hands on someone and send them,
whether any church recognizes it or not, it makes
no difference. They are a pastor at that point.

The piece of paper is actually quite worthless as far as
the true Christian church setup anyway. While men
today are all hung up over it, the reality is, there were
no pieces of paper in the original church, except for
a letter written by an Apostle, to show the churches
that Timothy, for example, went to, to let them know
that yes, he was sent by them, with authority and that
he really was who he said he was. Other than that,
the piece of paper that we have today, is good for one
thing and one thing only and that is so that the state
will recognize a marriage. Other than that, what is it
really good for? :) Does it make someone more "called"
as a pastor? :)

Take me for example. A man of God (who was an
ordained minister in a church) laid hands on me
and sent me out into the world, to preach the Gospel,
while I was yet in prison. From that moment on,
who is to say that I was not ordained? And why did
I take courses? To learn. Not to impress men.

Well, I guess that was the long way of telling you
that it doesn't matter what requirements you put
on someone to be a pastor. You can have bad men
go jump through the hoops and you can have men
of God who are kept out by these same churches,
because they won't recognize them, unless they
won't jump through their man made hoops.

It all boils down to what God requires and who
God calls and nothing else and nothing more.

precision are you sure you want to open that can of bees? And yes I do
mean can of bees, a can of worms really doesn't do anything but lay
there, however shake up a can of bees and see what happens.


Please do remember if it wasn't for jimmy swaggert the WTBTS would be
paying taxes.

On 3 Jun 2006 17:31:56 GMT, Enkidu
<ox_qljjor@trashmail.net> spake thusly:

I am an ordained minister.

I don't believe you.

Don't be too quick to dismiss. Even I'm an
ordained minister. Plenty of atheists are.
It's not that hard to become one. ;-)

I, too am an ordained minister. Shows you
what that title is worth, doesn't it?

Now I would not have said a word to you, had
you not said what you did above. And it's not
that I take personal offense. I agree with you,
that in many cases the title of "Minister" is a
joke and is especially a joke, considering where
you personally got the title from.