On Jan 10, 1:10ïÙÛpm, "Patriot Games" <Patr...@America.com> wrote:

"Do you believe the phrase 'under God' should remain in the Pledge of
Allegiance or should it be removed?" (11/29-30/05)
Should Remain: 90%
Should Be Removed: 7%
Stupid: 3%http://www.pollingreport.com/religion.htm

No one will admit the US is a Christian nation due to separation of
state and religion, so we have to look at how the US is run to get the
answer to that question. You see, actions speak louder than words.

Is US run as atheist country would be? Or the US run as spiritual
based country?

Just the fact that the US acknowledges separation of state and
religion give us a clue.

Atheism is one of the world's least tolerant religions. And it takes
humans of spiritual bent to allow freedom of speech, freedom of
thought, freedom of living. The spiritual orientation towards the
betterment of humanity can be seen in the religious background of our
founding fathers.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Atheist run dictatorship offer no such freedom.

You write Michelle:

"No one religion can force its views on all of us, even if that
religion is Christianity."

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/bb80c93af010f3cd/f9323a452f5b5bb8?hl=en#f9323a452f5b5bb8

Funny isn't it?

It takes Christians, Jews, Wiccians, Buddhists and Muslims to allow
the freedom of atheists to have the right to believe as they do. But
it takes atheists to disallow the freedom to believe as all the other
religions wish to believe?

Atheism does not tolerate religion, it only tolerates oppression.

http://www.churcharson.com/act_now/

This can also be seen in the alt.atheism FAQ condemning persons of a
religious orientation and justifying hatred and oppression towards
others.

When a politician of a certain religion gets voted in, you get 'the
whole package' and the religious morals and values are part of that
package.

Generally religion does not become a problem in politics unless the
religion is imposed against the will of people it is being imposed on.
Other times humanity can be most grateful for having such religious
values being imposed on them.

We can see that come to fruition with the many countries that the US
has been at war with and subsequently lost the war. If we were a
country that did not apply Christian principles to our captors
millions more would have been killed.

Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic
cleansing rather than applying charity. Atheist like to claim religion
killed so many people...well without religion in world the killings
would have been much worse.

Lets look at what our country would be like if it was run by
atheists...you know the kind...atheist that have 'real values'' that
are devoid of religious insanity.

Kelsey Bjarnason:

"What the hell would we need "spiritual values" for when we can have
real values instead?"

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

V:

Hi and thank you for your reply Kelsey.

Yes, spiritual concepts are hard to define, just as the source of the
wind is hard to define.

Since spiritual matters deal with the unseen and the unknown, how can
we define them perfectly?

If we could do that they would not be spiritual studies.

You can't see why one person is loving and kind and another person is
a fiend of perennial shame, hate and destruction.

Nor can you see what made the hate monger change into a kind and
loving human.

We can describe spiritual concepts and the journey that made the
change possible, but it is impossible to put our finger on it all
exactly.

Spiritual growth is a journey that is a never ending, an imperfect
process in this life.

But just as we can see the effects of the wind and gravity, while
being blind to its source; we can most definitely see the difference
in people that incorporate spiritual values within their lives when
compared to people that live a life devoid of any spiritual values.

No one said we have to 'investigate it all,' but we do have to give it
some thought if we wish to be at peace.

A Hindu sage once told me "Just as water floes downhill without effort
but requires outside forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the
human consciousness falls to its lowest levels of the senses without
effort and energies to make our consciousness gravitate to more than
our base desires."

As such without effort, the defiance based atheists sinks deeper and
deeper into sickness and tragedy as time goes by.

Lets look at some of the 'real values' that atheists develop once they
drop spirituality from the equation Kelsey.

As you can see below, the defiance based, mind manacled, spiritually
sick atheist can go out of their way to be very cruel.

The Buddhists follow the eightfold path of right living and one of
these paths encompasses right speech.

One time I brought up this subject of right speech at alt.atheism and
was responded to as such.

Robibnikoff wrote: "So. Fucking what...do you think I give a flying
***** what you think, dipshit...Not that it's any of YOUR fucking
business...Don't presume that you know what's best for me, you
deluded, motherfucking, cocksucking son of a *****." (condensed)

With my first few posts, I offered to discuss tools that the atheist,
agnostic or theist can all share to develop inner peace.

These are just a few of the responses at alt.atheism on the topics of
developing compassion, simplicity, ethics, morals, mindfulness,
reciprocity, philosophical studies, charity, accepting impermanence,
and developing gratitude.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christopher A. Lee wrote: "So fucking what? Keep it to yourself and
nobody will know what an ***** you are."

Kate wrote: "I've never been not at peace. What you offer makes me
physically ill. It's like a nasty man come round to tell little
kiddees he has candy for them if they touch his pee pee. You know,
most of the atheists I know are as good as children are at discerning
misrepresentation. You aren't trying to help anyone but your own
self. Go away, we have no interest in touching your pee pee."

Christopher A. Lee wrote: "What the ***** has philosophy got to do
with your in-your-face psychopathy?"

Michael Gray wrote: "Stop posting your vile polemic deliberately
nasty, lying Christian? . Please go away. No-one is buying your
poisonous diatribe. Are you really this stupid, or just pretending?"

John Baker wrote: "First of all, this is a newsgroup, not the
freaking public library. Keep it short and to the point. Second,
you're full of *****."

Christopher A. Lee wrote: "We know this deliberately nasty,
slandering liar is a Christian by his fruits...a liar as well as an
idiot...don't be so fucking stupid."

Christopher A. Lee wrote: "You wouldn't know "virtuous behaviour" if
it hit you over the head, whining hypocrite who needs to get the log
out of his own eye before accusing us of a projection of his own
deficiencies."

Christopher A. Lee wrote: "a few hundred lines of irrelevant *****
by a whining hypocrite who
doesn't practice what he preaches, deleted"

Robibnikoff wrote: "Shaddup, you *****."

Michael Gray wrote: "There ain't nothin' lamer than a jabriol
fuckwit"

Christopher A. Lee wrote: "Whi give a *****, in-your-face stuipid
moron?"

John Baker wrote: 'I'd almost feel sorry for him if he wasn't such
a disgusting piece of *****."

Robibnikoff wrote: "I hope that stupid fucker (V) doesn't think I
actually read all that dog ***** he posts."

Robibnikoff wrote: "....no one gives a ***** what you think."

Stoney wrote: "Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to shove a
wooden cross up their arses and rotate at a high rate of speed. I
trust you'll be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I could send you an almost endless supply of such material to prove
the point that without spiritual values, the atheist is sunk.

The conundrum of the mind manacled, defiance based, spiritually sick
atheist is this.

They need spiritual values to be at peace - yet their own defiance
blocks them from seeking and finding these values.

The atheist that only has a foundation of ego and hate will never find
peace.

If any theist questioning their faith should wonder onto alt.atheism,
for instance, they could see this for themselves with many spiritually
sick example members and their projection of this spiritual sickness
and self hate onto others

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robibnikoff wrote: "Blah, blah, blah... you boring sack of *****."

Mark K Bilbo wrote: "..you're an *****...a self-absorbed *****
who thinks everything is about him."

Mark K Bilbo wrote: "For a "peace" freak, you sure are a spiteful
little *****."

Panama Floyd wrote: "...this guy is funny. Why don't we wait a while
before we eat him? Maybe he'll poopie himself!."

John Baker wrote: "Oh, shut the ***** up, you self-righteous twit."

Robibnikoff wrote: "***** you, liar"

Robibnikoff wrote: "You must be an arrogant douche bag.(V)"

Jesus was a ***** wrote: "Never,scumbag ***** for christ.
your a ***** idiot-every post you make proves it."

Michael Gray wrote: "You exhibit all the signs of full clinical
sociopathy, if not actual psychopathy. You need professional help, but
won't take it, as that would entail admitting that the Fuckups that
are always happening to you are YOUR fault."

Michael Gray wrote: "If you insist upon continuing to strut your
massive ego and miniscule education in alt.atheism, we'll use you for
target practice, until we get bored with your repetitious long-winded
empty-headed *****-frosted ignorance."

Michael Gray wrote: "What do you expect from a lying sack of *****?"

Raven wrote: "God, will you get over that fucking ego of yours
already?"

Mark K Bilbo wrote: "what you write is self-absorbed,
condescending, arrogant rife, ego masturbation. You're in love with
yourself, don't care what other people think or feel, and have the
emotional maturity of a two year old."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All atheists are not like this.

Some spiritual based atheist far surpass theists in compassion and
inner peace.

The troubling thing at alt.atheism is no one speaks out against such
illness and this IS being promoted as atheistic view.

I wrote to the president of American Atheists, I wrote to the UK
Atheists as well s a Secular Humanist Foundation and Sam Harris about
this very topic...none had the courtesy to respond.

Atheists are their own worse enemy when it comes to promoting their
cause and trampling over organized religion.

Just as the bible is a major force with theists leaving religion, the
spiritually sick, mind manacled, defiance based atheist is the best
reason that theists return to their religion.

Such wavering theists quickly come to realize that without a
foundation spirituality the atheist is sunk and rapidly head back to
their church, temple or fellowship to get away from such people.

I brought up the topic of developing a 'church of sorts' or atheist
fellowship to lend guidance and support for right living and
reinforcing the ethics morals and the ideals of atheists and secular
humanism.

I'll leave you with just a few more quotes from Panama Floyd as he
writes on the subject of developing human empathy and compassion to
support moral, ethical and right living through such a fellowship:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Panama Floyd wrote: "The only thing I need to "support moral,
ethical and right living" is simple human empathy and compassion. That
anyone would need anything else is a mystery to me. Perhaps I'm just a
better person than they are (V)."

Panama Floyd wrote: "Then don't whine like a ***** when your butt
gets fucked,"

Panama Floyd wrote:: "...Take it (bible) and shove it up that smelly
little ***** you're using for a *****."

Panama Floyd wrote: "You're not smart enough, or brave enough to be
an atheist. Keep your idiotic dead-jew-on-a-stick, buttsuck. Fear of
it is probably the only thing keeping you from having sex with your
siblings."

Panama Floyd wrote: "Shaddap, *****. If I want your opinion, I'll
give you one."

Panama Floyd wrote:: "Go ***** yourself, Christian...Were I a violent
man, I'd advocate you all being rounded up and jailed, to keep you
from ruining other lives."

Panama Floyd wrote: "Go ***** yourself, shitstain. You come in here
and insult people-and then whine about the reception you get? *****, I
wish it caused you physical pain to be so ruthlessly stupid."

Panama Floyd wrote: "***** ya brainless fucking twat!"

Panama Floyd wrote: "***** Jesus. Your dead-jew-on-a-stick probably
never existed, and if he did, he was man-not a god. I don't take
"commands" from an illiterate, superstitious Bronze Age peasant.'

Panama Floyd: wrote: "What are *you* doing back here, you dumb *****-
assed punk? Ways of disposing with the human garbage called
"missionaries" is very definately on-topic."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion...as you give so your receive.

When you practice destroying others peace, you will reap self
destruction of inner peace...as you give so your receive

This is universal truth once the prejudice of ego is stripped away.

Whether atheists, theists or Buddhists, I submit that you all drop the
pretense and lies that you have been grasping onto for entire life and
rebuild your life through a foundation of truth and testing and
regenerate yourselves into a truth based agnostic freethinker striving
to be at peace within and with all.

No, Kelsey, I stand by my statement 100% that without spiritual
values, the atheist is sunk.

Words give a glimpse of what our insides are like. Whenever we beat
down others to boost our ego we will never find the peace that we are
desperately seeking.

Destroying others to glorify our ego is not the answer my friends.

And until you change, you will continue on your mockery of a life that
can best be described as the tragedy upon humanity that manifests
itself as the defiance, based, mind manacled, spiritually sick
atheist.

Also see:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

Take care,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist
Urban Homesteader
Agnostic minister of secular humanism to the mind-
manacled...spiritually sick...defiance based atheist.
AA#2

On Jan 10, 1:10=EF=BF=BDpm, "Patriot Games" <Patr...@America.com> wrote:

"Do you believe the phrase 'under God' should remain in the Pledge of
Allegiance or should it be removed?" (11/29-30/05)
Should Remain: 90%
Should Be Removed: 7%
Stupid: 3%http://www.pollingreport.com/religion.htm

No one will admit the US is a Christian nation due to separation of
state and religion, so we have to look at how the US is run to get the
answer to that question. You see, actions speak louder than words.

On Jan 10, 1:10=EF=BF=BDpm, "Patriot Games" <Patr...@America.com> wrote:

"Do you believe the phrase 'under God' should remain in the Pledge of
Allegiance or should it be removed?" (11/29-30/05)
Should Remain: 90%
Should Be Removed: 7%
Stupid: 3%http://www.pollingreport.com/religion.htm

No one will admit the US is a Christian nation due to separation of
state and religion, so we have to look at how the US is run to get the
answer to that question. You see, actions speak louder than words.

Is US run as atheist country would be? Or the US run as spiritual
based country?

Just the fact that the US acknowledges separation of state and
religion give us a clue.

Atheism is one of the world's least tolerant religions. And it takes
humans of spiritual bent to allow freedom of speech, freedom of
thought, freedom of living. The spiritual orientation towards the
betterment of humanity can be seen in the religious background of our
founding fathers.