Michael Siemon wrote:

This is probably seriously out of place in talk.origins, but
likely even more so in any "christian" froup (or most others!)
It does, however, have implications for the relationship of
(Christian) religion and science.

a) all Christians are human.

So is Darwin. Sorry Dar-loser

b) all scripture [of the sort canonized by Christians, of course,
but anybody else's as well :-)] was written by human beings.

So is the Origin Of Species

c) all Christian institutions, practices, traditions, doctrines,
[etc.] are entirely products of and carried by human beings. This
is true _regardless_ of any claims that may be entered under the
rubric of "inspiration"[*].

So is Evolution and its scientific claim

d) as human expressions, all these are subject to the limitations
of human beings -- their hopes and fears, their ignorance (and
knowledge), their experience/dreams/fantasies/hallucinations, etc.

e) orthodox Christian doctrine holds that God (who is seen as the
God of Truth) will sustain the fallible human institutions and
individuals so that the faithful shall not depart _too_ much (for
some value of that expression :-)) from the "correct" path. This
is, of course, a matter of "faith".

[*] Pause. Jesus may be (as is usually thought, and assumed) the
human who instituted the Christian practices/"sacraments" of
communion and baptism (though both have earlier roots...). But
if Jesus was not human, He is irrelevant. And if He was human,
He was subject to human limitations. Anything else is *****.
Yes, the _teaching_ [part of that fallible human stuff...] is
that He is _also_ God-the-Son. This I believe/accept -- but it
does nothing to change the point of this note. Jesus, the man,
was limited like any other human being [Chalcedon to the contrary
notwithstanding; that was a political *****-up.]

On "inspiration" -- it doesn't mean what superstitious idiots
think it means. I'm not at all clear what it _does_ mean, but
it ain't _that_! It is simply impossible for words from a human
writer or speaker to be anything other than limited human words,
however GODDIDIT may have "caused" these words to come forth in
any particular event. Later "institutional" retargeting of the
words _also_ operates under these same, completely inescapable
limitations of human discourse and culture. Thus, "virgin" Mary.

f) all "absolute" claims by Christians are bogus as such. Some,
uttered under the influence of the Holy Spirit, may be _felt_ to
be somehow absolute truth, by the speaker/author; and may be
accepted by (some) listeners/readers in that same vein -- but
our mere humanity suggests to any reflection that it cannot be
the case, however fervently some may wish it to be.

written (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) this All Hallows
Eve [minus 35 minutes but what the heck...], AD 2006.

Michael Siemon

Michael Siemon wrote:

c) all Christian institutions, practices, traditions, doctrines,
[etc.] are entirely products of and carried by human beings. This
is true _regardless_ of any claims that may be entered under the
rubric of "inspiration"[*].

So is Evolution and its scientific claim