Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"V"
Date:	30 Nov 2007 05:45:35 PM
Object:	Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished

On Nov 29, 2:42 pm, WakeUp Call <wak...@former.usa> wrote:

America's Day Of
Reckoning Is At Hand
By Paul Craig Roberts
11-27-7

http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm

Pat Buchanan is too patriotic to come right out and say it, but the
message of his new book, Day of Reckoning, is that America, as we have
known her, is finished. Moreover, Naomi Wolf agrees with him. These
two writers of different political persuasions arrive at America's
demise from different directions.

Buchanan explains how hubris, ideology, and greed have torn America
apart. A neoconservative cabal with an alien agenda captured the Bush
administration and committed American blood, energy, and money to
aggression against Muslim countries in the Middle East, while
permitting America's domestic borders to be overrun by immigrants and
exporting the jobs that had made the US an opportunity society. War
and offshoring have taken a savage economic toll while open borders
and diversity have created social and political division.

In her new book, End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot,
Wolf explains America's demise in terms of the erosion of freedoms.
She writes that the 10 classic steps that are used to close open
societies are currently being taken in the US. Martial law is only a
declaration away.

The Bush administration responded to September 11 by initiating
military aggression in the Middle East and by using fear and the "war
on terror" to implement police state measures at home with
legislation, presidential directives, and executive orders

Overnight the US became a tyranny in which people could be arrested
and incarcerated on the basis of unsubstantiated accusation. Both US
citizens and non-citizens were denied habeas corpus, due process, and
access to attorneys and courts. Congress gave Bush legislation
establishing military tribunals, the procedures of which permit people
to be condemned to death on the basis of secret evidence, hearsay, and
confessions extracted by torture. Nothing of the like has ever been
seen before in the US.

The cancer might have metastasized if the Guantanamo detainees had
actually been the dangerous terrorists and enemy combatants that the
Bush regime declared them to be. Had the administration actually
possessed evidence against the detainees, the Bush regime might have
succeeded in dispensing with the Constitution. Conviction of the
detainees could have led to what Wolf calls a "fascist expansion."
Following the exercise of its new powers, the regime could have
broadened the definition of terrorist to include the regime's critics,
thus pulling citizens in general into tribunals devoid of civil
liberty protections.

It could still turn out this way in the event of another 9/11 attack,
whether real or orchestrated. But momentarily the drive toward tyranny
has been blunted, because the vast majority of detainees turned out to
be hapless individuals sold into American captivity by warlords
responding to the bounty the US paid for "terrorists." Any unprotected
individual was vulnerable to being captured by Afghan and Pakistani
warlords and sold as a "terrorist." The Americans needed to show
results, and the Bush regime needed "terrorists" in order to feed the
fear its propaganda had generated.

In Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, the absence of evidence would not
have mattered as the judicial system produced the results demanded by
the tyrants. However, the US military had not been sufficiently
corrupted for the Bush regime's Guantanamo agenda to succeed.
Honorable officers, such as Lt. Col. Stephen Abraham, were able to
discern that the US government had no information on the detainees and
used interrogations in order to rubber stamp the a priori
determination that a detainee was a terrorist or enemy combatant.
Military officers made these revelations known to real courts before
the tribunal process could establish itself.

CounterPunch writer Andy Worthington's recently published book, The
Guantanamo Files: The Stories of the 759 Detainees in America's
Illegal Prison, proves that the regime's claim that it had hundreds of
dangerous terrorists at Guantanamo was just another Bush
administration lie.

Currently, support for Bush, Cheney, and the neoconservative agenda is
low. However, Congress, the press, and elections have proven to be
feeble opponents of the Bush regime's drive toward war and tyranny. It
remains to be seen whether the regime has sufficient credibility or
audacity to initiate war with Iran or a false flag attack that would
revive the fascist expansion of which Naomi Wolf warns.

The Bush administration has been a catastrophe. Its failures are
unprecedented. Energy prices are at all time highs. The US is deeply
in debt and dependent on foreign creditors. The dollar has lost 60 per
cent of its value against other tradable currencies, and its reserve
currency status, the basis of American power, is in doubt. The US has
lost millions of middle class jobs which have been replaced with low
paid domestic service jobs. Except for the very rich, Americans have
experienced no gains in real income in the 21st century. As the
ladders of upward mobility are dismantled and the middle class
struggles and fails, America is left with a few rich and many poor.
America's reputation and credibility are damaged perhaps beyond
repair. Congress and the press have enabled the executive branch's
disregard of the Constitution and civil liberty. The US is mired in
two lost wars which are pushing Lebanon and nuclear-armed Pakistan
into deepening political crises.

As Buchanan concludes, "Our day of reckoning is at hand."

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the
Reagan Administration. He is the author of Supply-Side Revolution

Both of your authors are skirting over the real problem that is at our
doorstep and will soon destroy 'our world' as we humans know it.
Lets address the real disease the world faces and as my Buddhist
friends like to say; 'do not confuse the finger pointing at the moon
with the moon.'
The world is in a death spiral and politicians as well as industry are
pretending this problem does not exist. We can only blame ourselves,
for it is just how we have built our world over the years....too many
people, living outside of natures intended balance and not an infinite
supply of energy to fuel all our demands.
It seems everyone wishes to hide their heads in the sand when it comes
to this subject of peak oil. We can't depend on the President to come
clean with the public. All his energies are spent just trying to keep
the oil flowing. He can't admit that the oil will stop in the not so
distant future, no matter what we do. It is a problem beyond his as
well as all of our control.
As they say in 12 Step programs - admitting you have a problem is step
1. And our country cannot admit it, after all, admitting this problem
would raise hell with our retirement funds. And until we can admit it,
we cannot begin on our long road to a 'semblance' of recovery.
And in the big picture, we can't fix the problem, we can only postpone
the inevitable. But buying a little more time would make things much
more livable in the not so distant future than the current path we are
headed in.
It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning
trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means
allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But
ten billion people can't burn the trees! (Ten billion people is a
conservative estimate of world population in the not so distant
future. We are at 7 people billion now.)
The World Coal Institute estimates world energy reserves as follows:
"At current production levels coal will be available for at least the
next 155 years compared to 41 years for oil and 65 years for gas."
http://www.worldcoal.org/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=21
Even though this was written a few years ago and it is based on
'current production and consumption' it gives the same haunting
message to the generations to come.
We may not exactly see the end of our free flowing energy as we know
it - but some of our descendants will in the not so distant future.
This is the legacy they will inherit from us. But before the energy
dries up completely massive changes in our world will have taken
place.
Our population has grown to levels where it has passed the point of no
return for supporting a sustainable human population as we know it
today when it comes to their energy demands.
And leading the pack of over consumers is the USA.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption
Consumption is ingrained in us and we know no other way. And even if
we wished to amend our ways, how could all our retirement funds take
the hit? America is built on borrowed money, spending and consumerism.
And what does all that consumerism lead to?
It leads to the mess we are in now and the bigger mess the world will
be in once India and China pick up momentum to copycat the envious
lifestyle that they have held in high esteem as the 'American Dream'
You see, the problem is not with the earth having enough land for all
its people - the problem is with earth providing ad infinitum for all
the needs the people crave.
The more people born, the more heat is produced from their life and
all their cravings, As such, the warmer and more polluted the earth
gets and the more energy they all use and the earths resources are
depleted.
Fueling the problem of consumption is the games the Federal and World
banks play with interest rates. They manage the economies in ways to
fuel consumption and mask the real trend. Witness the recent cries for
Federal bankers to lower interest rates...so the stock market can go
up...fueled by spending of the consumer.
It is drug habit that Greenspan got us hooked on and we just can't get
away from.
Our economy is not based on sustainable health - it is based low
interest credit to encourage compulsive spending, debt and living a
life of constant consumption with a 'disposable mentality' when it
comes to durable goods.
All this consumption to artificially fuel our economy to make our
retirement funds only go up contributes to more and more global
warming and the depletion of our natural resources. Then the
governments juggle the numbers to make the inflation figures seem
artificially low, so everyone's retirement portfolio will make them
happy so they will continue to buy and consume more...and on it
goes....IT IS ALL WE KNOW
You see, no other animal destroys its environment except mankind. We
are the only ones that do not accept and live within our comfortable
means. We not only debt with our finances we debt with our
environment. What we are borrowing in terms of petroleum, coal and
natural gas takes millions of years for nature to make. Yet we are
using it all up in just a few hundred years...we can never pay it
back.
I think our countries future will be....'America...a Democratic,
Communist Nation Under God.'
And maybe I am using the wrong word with communism? Maybe it should be
Nationalism? Socialism? I don't know since I have little interest in
politics.
As far for what I means, it could be compared somewhat to Plato's
Republic. Where the republic came first and people came second. But
with the US, the injection of Democratic values as well as a spiritual
foundation that supports our country would 'hopefully' separate us
from the atheist based communists that have been run as
dictatorships.
Without energy our country is open for takeover ... no jets...no
tanks...no transport on the ground or in the air. Luckily we will
still have nuclear powered submarines and aircraft carriers as long as
the uranium holds out. But the jets on the flattop all use jet fuel.
All the supplies for those subs and carriers petroleum dependent. So
long before the crude dries up the government must 'secure a supply'
of crude for it own needs.
Other countries such as Russia that have a good supply of crude may
not be so kind to keep on selling it to us and we need a 'local and
continual' source somewhat within our borders. You see, jet fuel as
well as gasoline deteriorates and cannot be stored indefinitely. So we
must always be producing some of it to replace the stale stuff to
supply the military. But, that's why we elect politicians to deal with
these troubles
As our world changes and our drug supply dries up, things will only
get worse. And the bigger the city - the bigger the hellhole it will
become. And this time RIGHT NOW is the defining moment as to whether
most of our population will die off or not in the crisis that awaits
us in the not so distant future.
When it comes to the future, I see people living in miniature houses
(the lucky ones that survive that is, after all most of the population
died off long ago from starvation, freezing to death or from the
riots) with roofs shingled completely with solar material.
They drive up to their house on an electric scooter that is recharged
from their solar roof. If they are higher up the totem pole they may
have a solar golf cart. But in either case, luck must still be on
their side for without the sun shinning to charge it, their
transportation sits idle. (Not much lead left to build big
batteries...China gobbled it all up, so we have to make due with very
small storage cells.)
They work for the government and in exchange the government feeds and
clothes them from their warehouses. You see, we have become a sort of
'Communist Democracy' for without that bold leap and a desire 'to put
our country first' Russia or China would have stepped in to acquire
some new real estate.
The warehouses are fed from government owned coal fired steam
locomotives. Diesel dried up long ago, so it was either wood or coal
to fuel the trains. It did not take our government long to realize
this. the electric plants only had to shut down sporadically for 8
months so until they could build the first of a large fleet of steam
locomotives.
This was a 'slight' government oversight. They never figured that the
coal fired power plants were fed with 'diesel powered' locomotives.
They kept concentrated on the prediction that we had a hundred of
years of coal left, but were oblivious as to how that coal is
delivered to the power plant. But all these changes have some bright
spots in them. As the coal producers were able to hire many more
workers to manually mine coal, as the diesel powered mining equipment
sit idle from lack of diesel fuel.
Now some of the states or bigger cities had the foresight to build one
or two electric rail trolleys for public transport. Your only problem
is getting to the main road to catch the trolley and then it is a
straight ride to the government warehouse.
What happened to Private industry & Money?
Money is nothing more than stored energy. But since the crude dried
up, the 'real energy' behind the money has vanished...and so did
private industry. What about the coal mines...all government owned. If
you want to eat you work..it is that simple.
So, what is money good for nowadays...to wipe your *****?
Not really, the government supplied toilet paper works better than
that.
Martha Stewart syndrome died out long ago, now people are happy to eat
rice and beans and get a clean glass of water to drink.
After all, the government can't afford to fool around decorating
everyone's house, they can hardly produce enough food to keep a
fraction of the population alive. Yes, tractors, reapers and farming
is very crude intensive...but no one bothered to think about that as
they continued to squander the worlds petroleum resources.
On a positive note, since most of the population died off from
'natural causes', the government does not have to worry about passing
'population control' any longer. They tried to get that universally
opposed program passed for many years, but the public just would not
go for it...too UN-American...goes against our religious
upbringings...too controversial and all of the rest. We can still hear
the cries now...Communist!...Atheist!...Baby
Killer....Hitler....Impeach the President!!!!
Such objections are only subjective and prejudicial states of mind.
As such, all problems related to 'controversial subjects' such as this
are problems created in the mind...the mind of ego based, prejudicial
man. If you find yourself being distracted with such thoughts as 'too
controversial' just ask yourself if the proposed controversy is true,
false or I don't know?
This introspective method may help you become truth based and not ego
based. You will have made a 'choice divorced of need'...you wont 'need
your ego' to support the truth...the truth will be able to stand on
its own.
But nature helped us humans out with that hard decision - for nature
does not discriminate nor find the truth too controversial or
provocative or opinionated to be true. And in the end, nature settled
the dispute of population control with even handed justice of 75% of
our population dying off, ever reminding us all that nature does not
bow to man...it is always man that bows to nature.
But, people hold no grudges against nature and are more in harmony
with nature and enjoy a simpler life nowadays. People pick pine
needles from trees to make their tea, since there is no jet fuel to
import any Darjeeling tea or coffee. Once in a while people are able
to kill a bird, a rat or cat to supplement their diet - so we still
can find a place of gratitude in our life for such gifts.
Of course one problem still haunts the world?
The last remaining buckets of crude will soon be gone and they have
still not found out how to make the tires for the solar powered golf
carts and scooters without that critical ingredient of crude oil?
Add it all together and you have 'America...a Democratic, Communist
Nation Under God.' as the 'best fit ' equation.
And for dessert add 'politics as usual' and we can see nothing
substantive will be done in the US to fix our energy woes until it is
too late. (Really it can't be fixed, we can only slowed down the
inevitable at this point.)
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F
BTW, do I like communism?
No, I like things EXACTLY as they are. But what I like doesn't
matter...neither does what you like matter. That's the point, for the
US to survive, we must put 'what matters to our country' on the front
burner. And as our country survives so do we survive.
Alan Watts used to say, it doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't
matter what you like, it doesn't matter what you hope for...all that
really matters is what IS.
Sure we keep our treasured paper money, our guns, and what have you.
The atheists can still be atheists and the Christians, Muslims and
Jews can still worship as they like...that is why we would be a free
democracy...of sorts.
But the difference is, instead of the ego based decisions that
politicians and the titans of business get sucked into, they will put
the long term viability as top priority over personal profit. We must
all pull together and stop pulling in counterproductive directions.
The gov needs to cut the fat and stop all this foolish sickness that
they are addicted to in Washington. Hire yourself some truth based
philosophers and futurists as Socrates suggested in the Republic as an
oversight committee to keep you guys on track.
One important thing would be to add an addendum to the constitution or
bill of rights or whatever other documents that outlines what we are
'now' all about...something that is clear advice that we can all look
to and not the 1000 page BS that politician use to hide their
sickness.
And yes,...hiding behavior is a signpost of die-ease.
And put it right upfront in the addendum as to why things changed...we
were energy whores and had no other choice.
But realize this, throughout history many great nations that once were
are not around any longer. Hopefully the US will understand this and
start accepting the truth that something has to give and it can't be
business as usual...it doesn't matter what you like...it doesn't
matter what you hope for...all that really matters is what is.
See:
http://www.algore.org/forum/al_gore_news_and_events/gores_work_combat_climate_crisis/why_dont_we_do_anything_about_global_
http://www.amazon.com/Out-Gas-End-Age-Oil/dp/0393058573
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/0691116253
http://www.lastoilshock.com/
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/
http://www.amazon.com/Resource-Wars-Landscape-Conflict-Introduction/dp/0805055762
http://www.amazon.com/Long-Emergency-Converging-Catastrophes-Twenty-First/dp/0871138883
http://dieoff.org/
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist
AA#2
.

User: "V"
Title: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	30 Nov 2007 05:57:23 PM

Book and DVD list:
An excellent series of DVD's showcasing primitive skills:
http://www.hopspress.com/Videos/Art_of_Nothing.htm
Basic essentials. Edible wild plants & useful herbs
by Meuninck, Jim
Beyond civilization : humanity's next great adventure
by Quinn, Daniel
Beyond oil : the view from Hubbert's Peak
by Deffeyes, Kenneth S.
Bowling alone : the collapse and revival of American community
by Putnam, Robert D.
The coming economic collapse [how you can thrive when oil costs $200 a
barrel
by Leeb, Stephen
The complete book of Dutch oven cooking
by Fears, J. Wayne
The complete book of fire : building campfires for warmth, light,
cooking, and survival
by Tilton, Buck
The complete guide to edible wild plants, mushrooms, fruits, and
nuts : how to find, identify, and cook them
by Lyle, Katie Letcher
Crossing the Rubicon : the decline of the American empire at the end
of the age of oil
by Ruppert, Michael C.
Edible wild plants
by Meuninck, James
Edible wild plants of Pennsylvania and neighboring states
by Medve, Richard J.
The end of suburbia oil depletion and the collapse of the American
dream
by Greene, Gregory
A field guide to edible wild plants of Eastern and Central North
America
by Peterson, Lee.
Going local : creating self-reliant communities in a global age
by Shuman, Michael
How to dry foods
by DeLong, Deanna.
The long emergency : surviving the converging catastrophes of the
twenty-first century
by Kunstler, James Howard
The oil depletion protocol : a plan to avert oil wars, terrorism and
econmic collapse
by Heinberg, Richard
Peak oil survival : preparation for life after gridcrash
by McBay, Aric
Powerdown : options and actions for a post-carbon world
by Heinberg, Richard
Primitive living, self-sufficiency, and survival skills : a field
guide to primitive living skills
by Elpel, Thomas J.
Resource wars : the new landscape of global conflict
by Klare, Michael T
Seed to seed : seed saving techniques for the vegetable gardener
by Ashworth, Suzanne
A thousand barrels a second : the coming oil break point and the
challenges facing an energy dependent world
by Tertzakian, Peter
Who killed the electric car?
Sony Pictures Classics release
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_(book)
Good luck,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist
.

User: "V"
Title: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	30 Nov 2007 05:53:59 PM

Lets say we stop using crude for our cars, trucks, trains and just use
it for airplane fuel and petrochemical use.
From this list we can see that we are still massively depend on crude
for our non sustainable lifestyle.
There is no replacement for crude...crude is in the details of our
life.
So even if we all stop driving we will just be postponing the
inevitable that our artificial way of living is going to change in the
not so distant future.
A partial list of products made from Petroleum (144 of over 6000
items) One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline.
The rest (over half) is used to make things like:
Solvents Diesel Motor Oil Bearing Grease
Ink Floor Wax Ballpoint Pens Football Cleats
Upholstery Sweaters Boats Insecticides
Bicycle Tires Sports Car Bodies Nail Polish Fishing lures
Dresses Tires Golf Bags Perfumes
Cassettes Dishwasher Tool Boxes Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet Caulking Petroleum Jelly Transparent Tape
CD Player Faucet Washers Antiseptics Clothesline
Curtains Food Preservatives Basketballs Soap
Vitamin Capsules Antihistamines Purses Shoes
Dashboards Cortisone Deodorant Footballs
Putty Dyes Panty Hose Refrigerant
Percolators Life Jackets Rubbing Alcohol Linings
Skis TV Cabinets Shag Rugs Electrician's Tape
Tool Racks Car Battery Cases Epoxy Paint
Mops Slacks Insect Repellent Oil Filters
Umbrellas Yarn Fertilizers Hair Coloring
Roofing Toilet Seats Fishing Rods Lipstick
Denture Adhesive Linoleum Ice Cube Trays Synthetic Rubber
Speakers Plastic Wood Electric Blankets Glycerin
Tennis Rackets Rubber Cement Fishing Boots Dice
Nylon Rope Candles Trash Bags House Paint
Water Pipes Hand Lotion Roller Skates Surf Boards
Shampoo Wheels Paint Rollers Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings Luggage Aspirin Safety Glasses
Antifreeze Football Helmets Awnings Eyeglasses
Clothes Toothbrushes Ice Chests Footballs
Combs CD's Paint Brushes Detergents
Vaporizers Balloons Sun Glasses Tents
Heart Valves Crayons Parachutes Telephones
Enamel Pillows Dishes Cameras
Anesthetics Artificial Turf Artificial limbs Bandages
Dentures Model Cars Folding Doors Hair Curlers
Cold cream Movie film Soft Contact lenses Drinking Cups
Fan Belts Car Enamel Shaving Cream Ammonia
Refrigerators Golf Balls Toothpaste Gasoline
Americans consume petroleum products at a rate of three-and-a-half
gallons of oil and more than 250 cubic feet of natural gas per day
each!
(net source)
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist
AA#2
.

User: "J Forbes"
Title: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	30 Nov 2007 06:44:37 PM

V wrote:

The world is in a death spiral and politicians as well as industry are
pretending this problem does not exist. We can only blame ourselves,
for it is just how we have built our world over the years....too many
people, living outside of natures intended balance and not an infinite
supply of energy to fuel all our demands.

why do you say that there is such a thing as "natures intended
balance"?
Jim
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	30 Nov 2007 09:20:37 PM

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:44:37 -0800 (PST), J Forbes
<jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:

V wrote:

why do you say that there is such a thing as "natures intended
balance"?

Because he is a woo-woo kook.
.

User: "Steve O"
Title: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	01 Dec 2007 03:11:00 AM

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:lnk1l3hf6omoett8f90t93m3qfavjk9fv5@4ax.com...

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:44:37 -0800 (PST), J Forbes
<jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:

V wrote:

why do you say that there is such a thing as "natures intended
balance"?

Because he is a woo-woo kook.

I'll meet him halfway on this statement.
(Does that make me half a woo- woo?)
There is a balance in nature, but there's nothing intentional about it.
--
Steve O
a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter)
B.A.A.W.A.
Convicted by Earthquack
"Believe the Bible! - Because all the works of modern science cannot equal
the wisdom of goat - sacrificing primitives who thought that all the animal
species in the world lived within walking distance of Noah's house."
.

User: "V"
Title: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	30 Nov 2007 05:56:04 PM

Why don't we do anything about global warming...because we can't.
To do anything substantive would cause a financial and population
backlash of unimaginable proportions.
And what we could do, even with drastic measures, would not cure
global warming but only slow things down.
In addition, there is no one global entity to control all the green
house gas emitters. China an India plan on adding more dirty coal
burning electric plants to feed their burgeoning economies.
Yes, we have Kyoto, but...the largest polluters of green house gasses
have exempted themselves from it.
"As of June 2007, a total of 172 countries and other governmental
entities have ratified the agreement (representing over 61.6% of
emissions from Annex I countries). Notable exceptions include the
United States and Australia. Other countries, like India and China,
which have ratified the protocol, are not required to reduce carbon
emissions under the present agreement."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol
We can't start wars over green house gas like we do oil...even then we
would have to go to war right here at home before we point fingers at
other countries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3143798.stm
As far as foreign wars, many of these newly rich nations seem to be in
a war of sorts to see who can build the biggest and the tallest. Well,
the bigger the building is the more energy it takes to power it and
the more green house gas is given off to pay for the ego behind the
monstrosity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_and_structures_in_the_world#Tallest_buildings
Thoreau once said when people invited him to dinner they 'put their
pride' in how fancy and expensive a meal they could make. Whereas he
put his pride in how simple and inexpensive a meal he could make.
Where do we put our pride?
We surely don't put it in living within our means and in balance with
nature.
In the US, 93.2% of our electric comes from non renewable, greenhouse
gas producing methods.
If we are looking to hydroelectric and renewable sources, 4.46% of our
electric comes from hydroelectric and 2.34% comes from renewable
energy production.
Out of this 2.34% of renewable sources, an undisclosed portion still
contributes to global warming despite its prestige of being a
'renewable energy source' as it involves the burning of wood, black
liquor, wood waste, municipal solid waste, landfill gas, sludge waste,
tires, agriculture byproducts and biomass.
Only a fraction of the 2.34% of renewable electric energy that is
produced comes from geothermal, solar thermal, photovoltaic energy,
and wind.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epates.html
Lets say we decided to turn off the coal fired plants for 25% of a 24
hour day to save some fossil fuel.
Saving 25% seems to be a modest proposal.
So they shut the coal fired plants down for 6 hours during peak
daytime operation.
And lets say we don't care that all the frozen food in the markets
will thaw out and the refrigerated foods will spoil.
And lets say the workforce will sacrifice their jobs for the 6 hours
every day while the electric is shut off.
And we put up with the gridlock and accidents from not having traffic
lights and the doctors and hospitals all shut down.
And people just hold their noses over the backed up sewage that cannot
be processed when the electric is off.
The real problem with trying to implement even a modest 25% fossil
fuel saving plan is this - it just can't be done.
Coal fired plants are not of the nature to be turned off and turned on
with the flip of a switch.
If a coal fired plant was turned off and completely cooled down it
would take many days to bring it back online. If a coal powered plant
was shut down even for 6 hours, it would take between 10 to 12 hours
to bring it back to operational capacity.
In addition, when the plant is started back up, all the fossil fuel
that is consumed in the startup does not make electric, it just goes
to bring things back up to speed. And during startup, the plant
operates at lower temperature and produces more pollution at those
lower temperatures. And if that is not enough, startups of that
magnitude send out power surges that destroy transformers and cause
grid problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_plant
Well, if saving 25% from the coal plants does not seem feasible, what
about going to the American public?
Can we cut back on GNP by 25%?
Cut back on utility use at home by 25%
Cut back on driving by 25%?
Cut back on consumption whether it be food or hard goods by 25%?
Cut back on interstate trucking by 25%?
And cut back in all related areas that use energy by 25%?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!
The 'public' gets their underpants in a bind when the GNP drops at
all...even when it is still in the positive numbers.
They start a panic in the stock market when the GNP is +1%, so how can
it survive a -25% GNP drop?.
And as for cutting back on our demands...well it goes against the
American dream.
Are you starting to see the folly of thinking mankind can stop global
warming, when mankind is built on such a ludicrous foundation?
There is no 'simple or easy answer' to this issue nor is there even a
'not so simple and hard answer' to our dilemma.
The world is in a death spiral. It is just how we have built our world
over the years.
It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning
trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means
allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But
ten billion people can't burn the trees!
The World Coal Institute estimates world energy reserves as follows:
"At current production levels coal will be available for at least the
next 155 years compared to 41 years for oil and 65 years for
gas." (See footnote #1)
http://www.worldcoal.org/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=21
Even though this was written a few years ago and it is based on
'current production and consumption' it gives the same haunting
message to the generations to come.
We may not see the end of our free flowing energy as we know it - but
some of our descendants will in the not so distant future. This is the
legacy they will inherit from us.
Mankind is just a little 'too smart' for his environment and learned
to live beyond natures intended means.
But mankind does not seem 'smart enough' to fix the mess that it has
created.
Yes, mankind has done great things over their reign on earth, but we
must always remember nature does not bow to us..in the end we all bow
to nature.
Our population has grown to levels where it has passed the point of no
return for supporting a sustainable human population as we know it
today.
And leading the pack of over consumers is the USA.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption
Consumption is ingrained in us and we know no other way. And even if
we wished to amend our ways, how could all our retirement funds take
the hit? America is built on borrowed money, spending and consumerism.
And what does all that consumerism lead to?
It leads to the mess we are in now and the bigger mess the world will
be in once India and China pick up momentum to copycat the envious
lifestyle that they have held in high esteem as the 'American Dream'
I love our country and would rather live here than anyplace else in
the world. But be that as it may, our country and the rest of the
world is built on unsustainable means and the bill is coming due soon
for our spending spree.
Since the US is said to be about 75% Christian and was founded on
maximum freedom for its people, I doubt whether the US will ever come
up with a population control plan. It would be too controversial and
it goes against promoting life, certain religions and personal
freedoms.
And let me be clear, I am not promoting atheism -- for if I had to die
in a hot box from global warming, I would rather die with the
Christians praying than with the atheists cursing.
See:
"What the hell would we need 'spiritual values' for when we can have
real values."
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0.
And while I cannot deny the wisdom of promoting life as many religions
profess and personal freedom, sometime we must accept the lesser of
two evils if promoting life turns into being more destructive to life
than 'not promoting' it.
It then becomes a decision whether to choose between the 'greater good
for the whole' or the 'greater personal right for the individual'...
and the whole be damned. (Whole meaning entire human population of our
planet.)
For instance, on a farm if the plants are planted packed like sardines
(or 'packed like sushi' as they say in Japan) the plants do not
flourish.
In nature, trees that are overcrowded weed themselves out by nature's
decree. But if man forced the trees to not weed out and forces
crowding the trees may die from disease due to a forced and
unsustainable growth plan.
So it goes with how our planet is evolving...a sad but exactly true
statement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation
Now, I a not a tree hugger, green peace freak or communist. I drive
dirt bikes, love 2 stroke 500cc thumpers, run jet skis and snowmobiles
and could consume along with the best of em.
But I do respect and admire nature and most of all I respect and
admire life and have had to 'mend my ways' so to speak once it sunk in
how things were. And in the process I have given up a lot of personal
desires for the greater good of the whole.
You see, the problem is not with the earth having enough land for all
its people - the problem is with earth providing ad infinitum for all
the needs the people crave.
The more people born, the more heat is produced from their life and
all their cravings, As such, the warmer and more polluted the earth
gets and the more energy they all use and the earths resources are
depleted.
Fueling the problem of consumption is the games the Federal and World
banks play with interest rates. They manage the economies in ways to
fuel consumption and mask the real trend. Witness the recent cries for
Federal bankers to lower interest rates...so the stock market can go
up...fueled by spending of the consumer.
It is drug habit that Greenspan got us hooked on and we just can't get
away from.
Our economy is not based on sustainable health - it is based low
interest credit to encourage compulsive spending, debt and living a
life of constant consumption with a 'disposable mentality' when it
comes to durable goods.
All this consumption to artificially fuel our economy to make our
retirement funds only go up contributes to more and more global
warming and the depletion of our natural resources. Then the
governments juggle the numbers to make the inflation figures seem
artificially low, so everyone's retirement portfolio will make them
happy so they will continue to buy and consume more...and on it
goes....IT IS ALL WE KNOW
You see, no other animal destroys its environment except mankind. We
are the only ones that do not accept and live within our comfortable
means. We not only debt with our finances we debt with our
environment. What we are borrowing in terms of petroleum, coal and
natural gas takes millions of years for nature to make. Yet we are
using it all up in just a few hundred years...we can never pay it
back.
And even if you are of a religious bent that think God created it all
6000 years ago. What took 6000 years will still be used up in a
fraction of the time it took to create it.
Some theists say we need to pray harder to God to fix our mess. Other
theists say it is Gods punishment raining down on us?
No telling since God doesn't have much to say on this topic.
See:
'Why is God silent - I don't know?'
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=504.0
The scary thing is China and India are just starting to bloom with
their demands for fossil fuels We haven't seen anything yet with the
meteoric rise of gas, energy and over consumption.
In China the per capita car ownership rate is 40 car owners per 1000
persons. In India it is much lower, running 8 cars per 1000 people. As
these two giants evolve more of their population will want cars...in
India, they are making a $2500 car as well.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/percapita_car_o.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20394364/
But what can one say about the problem unless people just cut back
reproducing?
Everyone has a desire to have some sex stimulation and through that
stimulation comes more and more people.
And everyone has a desire to keep warm when it is cold or to keep cool
in the heat or move about the earth and wear clothes. And it is from
all those desires that global warming fueled through the expenditure
of fossil fuels takes place.
But the sad reality is even if people cut back having babies, we are
only delaying the inevitable and that alone will not fix the problem.
It can be compared to men stuck underwater in a crippled submarine.
The more they move around, the quicker they run out of air and die.
The less they move, the longer they can live...but the end result is
the same.
Now maybe some genius will come up with a replacement for petroleum,
natural gas and coal to meet all out needs. But it is unrealistic to
think we can grow enough corn to fuel all the trucks, airlines, cargo
ships, cars and other needs we humans have in addition run all the
power plants and factories, heat and cool our homes.
You see all our energy needs are met with non sustainable non
renewable resources whether it be coal, petroleum, or natural gas.
Even nuclear power is dependent on the mining of uranium and has
limits as to how long the supply will last.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4287300/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves
http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/uranium.html
But lets not project too far in the future and try to keep our minds
on the problems at hand.
$10 a gallon gas in the future? What about $30 a gallon gas??
No doubt! All we have to do is look to history for the answer.
When I first took notice of gas prices in the early 70's gas was .22
cents a gallon.
No one would have thought that gas would take a 1360% rise in price in
3 1/2 decades.
In addition to cars and gasoline, tons of other products and
industries are dependent on crude oil as a component for their
products.
http://www.lmoga.com/refoutput.htm
I can see how life has degenerated in recent years and this is just
the tip of the berg for things to come. I am not an alarmist as one
lady accused me, but I would do humanity a disservice if I did not
bring this topic up now an again for discussion.
See my post
"Your sanity is my sanity and my sanity is your sanity."
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=628.0
When you bring up population control the talk naturally turns to China
and India.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2872/is_1_27/ai_71563390
And population control alone is a controversial subject to discuss
...."when you get beyond the mythology and seriously examine the one-
child policy, it is clear the policy is not viable even if one can
stomach the horrendous human rights violations it entails."
From:
http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/countries-of-the-world/asia/china/chinas-one-child-policy/
But in reality, there is no such thing as 'opinionated' -
'provocative' 'controversial' subjects. The contemplative life finds
it joy in discovering truth. And the truth does not set such limits on
itself as being 'too controversial' to be true.
These are only subjective and prejudicial states of mind. Such 'mind
blocks' may bother one, but do not bother another. As such, all
problems related to 'controversial subjects' such as this are problems
created in the mind...the mind of ego based, prejudicial man.
If you find yourself being distracted with such thoughts as 'too
controversial' just ask yourself if the proposed controversy is true,
false or I don't know?
That method may help you become truth based and not ego based. You
will have made a 'choice divorced of need'...you wont 'need your ego'
to support the truth...the truth will be able to stand on its own.
Any President would do doubt have little success in getting anything
done with population control. We can hear the cries
now...Communist!...Atheist!...Baby Killer....Hitler!!!!
So the best thing for the President to do would be to put it before
the public every 2 or 3 years in a national election to get America's
verdict on the subject and our country mindful of the issue.
Put America on record.
Then at least the President could say he tried, but the people of the
US prefer to thumb their noses at the rest of the world and the US
will do as they like.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption
If anyone is against population control and has no other viable
alternative to offer other than Communist!...Atheist!...Baby
Killer....Hitler! - when they are asked what can be done to slow down
global warming - slow down over consumption - slow down the
destruction of the human race that hell bent on growing at an
unsustainable pace - they should respond: (See footnote #2)
"I just don't care...that is someone else's problem not mine."
Now, I don't claim to have the magic bullet to fix all our woes. I'm
just a simple philosopher not a scientist or genius. All I can do is
to bring the problem to the forefront and ask that we all work in a
healthier direction that the one we have been headed in. And when we
can understand that all humans are interdependent and not independent
of one another, we come to realize that we all share the same breath.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=8.0
Footnote #1:
Something to think about is coals dependence on crude. Our crude oil
(41 years of reserves) will be depleted much sooner than our coal (155
years of reserves) This brings up certain problems of production and
distribution. For instance, coal is delivered to power plants by rail.
The trains are powered by diesel fuel, which is made from crude oil.
Now, we may be able to resort back to old technology and start running
coal fired steam locomotives to deliver the coal, but this will have a
negative effect on the green house gas emissions. But even before the
coal can be delivered it has to be mined and processed...and most of
that mining is powered by crude as well.
http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/twe/mcoal.htm
Footnote #2:
It seems global warming can't be fixed, it can only be slowed
down...too many people on earth to fix it...to many demands...too many
cravings...best we can do is to slow it down.
Postscript
Who Killed the Electric Car?
It would be most worth while. The documentary not only discuses
electric vehicle in depth, but cover hydrogen fuel cells, ethanol,
methanol and biodiesel. A truly outstanding educational tool for
anyone interested in this subject.
Just a few tidbits from the film...a hydrogen cell car cost upwards of
one million dollars. Every gallon of gas we burn puts 19 pounds of Co2
in the atmosphere and producing hydrogen for the fuel cells as well as
ethanol is, I am sorry to say...crude intensive!
Get it from your library today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F
Also See:
http://www.algore.org/forum/al_gore_news_and_events/gores_work_combat_climate_crisis/why_dont_we_do_anything_about_global_
http://www.amazon.com/Out-Gas-End-Age-Oil/dp/0393058573
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/0691116253
http://www.lastoilshock.com/
http://www.amazon.com/Resource-Wars-Landscape-Conflict-Introduction/dp/0805055762
http://www.amazon.com/Long-Emergency-Converging-Catastrophes-Twenty-First/dp/0871138883
http://dieoff.org/
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist
.

User: "Mariachi"
Title: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	30 Nov 2007 06:47:36 PM

And let me be clear, I am not promoting atheism -- for if I had to die
in a hot box from global warming, I would rather die with the
Christians praying than with the atheists cursing.

See:

"What the hell would we need 'spiritual values' for when we can have
real values."

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0.

I agree with a lot of your statements, but you cannot choose both
sides according to Christianity. You must choose to accept Christ or
you do not choose to accept Christ.
If you believe that people believe in God because they are foolish and
they are the people that are ruining this country by voting for Bush
and his neo-con friends, then you are terribly wrong. There are a lot
of smart Christians in the world who do not believe every single word
that is fed to them by the "conservative" media. And they also see
right through the democrats also. As far as I'm concerned, neither
party impressed me in terms of morality or fiscal responsibility. A
lot of Christians can see right through Bush, Fox news, and other
"conservative" propaganda that has political overtones. Personally, I
don't really think we should link government with religion anymore.
Every time some politician brags about how holy they are and say crazy
stuff like "It's Gods will to spread freedom across the world", you
know that they are using Christianity to manipulate the masses. Satan
disguised himself as an angel of light, does that mean Satan is holy?
No. That goes for all politicians who use Christianity as a means for
their own political agenda. They are masqueraders. Sorry bit off
topic
There is more to it than meets the eye when someone is a truly devoted
Christian. You will see it in the actions, their love for other
people, their humility, etc... It is because their heart has genuinely
changed by accepting Christ dominion in their life. It is not some
fairy tale to them, Christ is the purpose of life to them, or Christ
is Life to them. Christians love, not because they loved God first,
but because God loved them first.
.

User: "Christopher A.Lee"
Title: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	30 Nov 2007 06:49:36 PM

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:47:36 -0800 (PST), Mariachi
<jpgarcia153@hotmail.com> wrote:

I agree with a lot of your statements, but you cannot choose both
sides according to Christianity. You must choose to accept Christ or
you do not choose to accept Christ.

Why do you morons imagine there is anything to choose, in the real
world outside your religion?
Nobody "chooses" not to believe, they simply have no reason to
believe.

If you believe that people believe in God because they are foolish and
they are the people that are ruining this country by voting for Bush
and his neo-con friends, then you are terribly wrong. There are a lot
of smart Christians in the world who do not believe every single word
that is fed to them by the "conservative" media. And they also see
right through the democrats also. As far as I'm concerned, neither
party impressed me in terms of morality or fiscal responsibility. A
lot of Christians can see right through Bush, Fox news, and other
"conservative" propaganda that has political overtones. Personally, I
don't really think we should link government with religion anymore.
Every time some politician brags about how holy they are and say crazy
stuff like "It's Gods will to spread freedom across the world", you
know that they are using Christianity to manipulate the masses. Satan
disguised himself as an angel of light, does that mean Satan is holy?
No. That goes for all politicians who use Christianity as a means for
their own political agenda. They are masqueraders. Sorry bit off
topic

Why do you morons invent "reasons" people don't have?
There is a real world outside your religion. Live with it.

There is more to it than meets the eye when someone is a truly devoted
Christian. You will see it in the actions, their love for other
people, their humility, etc... It is because their heart has genuinely
changed by accepting Christ dominion in their life. It is not some
fairy tale to them, Christ is the purpose of life to them, or Christ
is Life to them. Christians love, not because they loved God first,
but because God loved them first.

We see it in their deluded fantasies, which include their inability to
think outside the box so they rudely and stupidly talk as though their
beliefs had been proven to be real.
.

User: "Mariachi"
Title: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	30 Nov 2007 07:15:08 PM

On Nov 30, 7:49 pm, Christopher A.Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:47:36 -0800 (PST), Mariachi

<jpgarcia...@hotmail.com> wrote:

And let me be clear, I am not promoting atheism -- for if I had to die
in a hot box from global warming, I would rather die with the
Christians praying than with the atheists cursing.

See:

"What the hell would we need 'spiritual values' for when we can have
real values."

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0.

I agree with a lot of your statements, but you cannot choose both
sides according to Christianity. You must choose to accept Christ or
you do not choose to accept Christ.

Why do you morons imagine there is anything to choose, in the real
world outside your religion?

Nobody "chooses" not to believe, they simply have no reason to
believe.

Why do you morons invent "reasons" people don't have?

There is a real world outside your religion. Live with it.

We see it in their deluded fantasies, which include their inability to
think outside the box so they rudely and stupidly talk as though their
beliefs had been proven to be real.

Apparently you have never thought outside the box calling Christians
delusional. I will not ridicule anyones religion, I will just present
Christianity as it is in the bible. Have you ever reviewed the
evidence? Why are you so quick to say that Christianity does not have
a factual basis? If you are so open-minded, I would hate to see what
close-minded is. As it stands, the Holy Bible has been a guide for
billions of people throughout the years, yet you dismiss Christianity
as pure delusional fantasy. Christianity is the only religion in
which God came to earth to save us. It is not a quest to search for
God and the purpose of life, because it mentions what the purpose of
life is. You do not have to earn your way to God in Christianity, you
just have to believe what God did for you. I challenge you to have an
open mind and read the book of John in the bible.
.

User: "Brian E. Clark"
Title: TQOTM nomination: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	30 Nov 2007 08:14:46 PM

In article <e69cb032-6b99-4f2d-b643-
3c0fc597321b@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Mariachi
said...
Nominated for its sheer, numbing ignorance. This
fellow can't tell Shia from Shinola, yet he feels
comfortable lecturing people about the would-be
advantages of his religion.

Christianity is the only religion in
which God came to earth to save us.

--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
.

User: "Christopher A.Lee"
Title: Re: TQOTM nomination: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	30 Nov 2007 08:23:28 PM

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:14:46 -0500, Brian E. Clark
<reply@newsgroup.only.please> wrote:

In article <e69cb032-6b99-4f2d-b643-
3c0fc597321b@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Mariachi
said...

Nominated for its sheer, numbing ignorance. This
fellow can't tell Shia from Shinola, yet he feels
comfortable lecturing people about the would-be
advantages of his religion.

Christianity is the only religion in
which God came to earth to save us.

It's standard, mind-bogglingly stupid line used by far too many
fundies. And he accused me of not being able to think outside the box!
Seconded.
.

User: *"nemo"*
Title: Re: TQOTM nomination: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	13 Dec 2007 04:51:56 AM

Christopher A.Lee wrote:

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:14:46 -0500, Brian E. Clark
<reply@newsgroup.only.please> wrote:

In article <e69cb032-6b99-4f2d-b643-
3c0fc597321b@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Mariachi
said...

Nominated for its sheer, numbing ignorance. This
fellow can't tell Shia from Shinola, yet he feels
comfortable lecturing people about the would-be
advantages of his religion.

Christianity is the only religion in
which God came to earth to save us.

It's standard, mind-bogglingly stupid line used by far too many
fundies. And he accused me of not being able to think outside the box!

Seconded.

Recorded. Extra groups removed
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.

User: "skyeyes"
Title: Re: TQOTM nomination: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	03 Dec 2007 05:48:05 PM

On Nov 30, 7:23 pm, Christopher A.Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:14:46 -0500, Brian E. Clark

<re...@newsgroup.only.please> wrote:

In article <e69cb032-6b99-4f2d-b643-
3c0fc5973...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Mariachi
said...

Nominated for its sheer, numbing ignorance. This
fellow can't tell Shia from Shinola, yet he feels
comfortable lecturing people about the would-be
advantages of his religion.

Christianity is the only religion in
which God came to earth to save us.

It's standard, mind-bogglingly stupid line used by far too many
fundies. And he accused me of not being able to think outside the box!

Seconded.

Thirded.
Brenda
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: TQOTM nomination: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	04 Dec 2007 12:57:56 AM

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 15:48:05 -0800 (PST), skyeyes
<skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote:

On Nov 30, 7:23 pm, Christopher A.Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:14:46 -0500, Brian E. Clark

<re...@newsgroup.only.please> wrote:

In article <e69cb032-6b99-4f2d-b643-
3c0fc5973...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Mariachi
said...

Nominated for its sheer, numbing ignorance. This
fellow can't tell Shia from Shinola, yet he feels
comfortable lecturing people about the would-be
advantages of his religion.

Christianity is the only religion in
which God came to earth to save us.

It's standard, mind-bogglingly stupid line used by far too many
fundies. And he accused me of not being able to think outside the box!

Seconded.

Thirded.

Fifthed.
(Groups trimmed, to boot)
.

User: "Christopher A.Lee"
Title: Re: America As We've Known It Is Finished	30 Nov 2007 07:28:58 PM

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:15:08 -0800 (PST), Mariachi
<jpgarcia153@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Nov 30, 7:49 pm, Christopher A.Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:47:36 -0800 (PST), Mariachi

<jpgarcia...@hotmail.com> wrote:

And let me be clear, I am not promoting atheism -- for if I had to die
in a hot box from global warming, I would rather die with the
Christians praying than with the atheists cursing.

See:

"What the hell would we need 'spiritual values' for when we can have
real values."

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0.

I agree with a lot of your statements, but you cannot choose both
sides according to Christianity. You must choose to accept Christ or
you do not choose to accept Christ.

Why do you morons imagine there is anything to choose, in the real
world outside your religion?

Nobody "chooses" not to believe, they simply have no reason to
believe.

Why do you morons invent "reasons" people don't have?

There is a real world outside your religion. Live with it.

We see it in their deluded fantasies, which include their inability to
think outside the box so they rudely and stupidly talk as though their
beliefs had been proven to be real.

Apparently you have never thought outside the box calling Christians
delusional.

What box, liar? This is the real world where yours is merely one of
hundreds of other religious beliefs.
And I would even know you were delusional if you had the common sense
and courtesy to keep it to yourself.

I will not ridicule anyones religion,

Neither do I IF THEY KEEP IT TO THEMSELVES.
Unfortunately Christians are too stupid to realise that one man's
religion is another man's belly laugh, to quote Robert Anson Heinlein.

I will just present
Christianity as it is in the bible.

If you had the intelligence to think outside the box you would know
that the Bible is irrelevant outside your religion.

Have you ever reviewed the
evidence?

What "evidence", moron?

Why are you so quick to say that Christianity does not have
a factual basis?

So prove it, moron, instead of presuming that everybody else should.
Until you do that it is not substantively different than any of the
other religions. Its believers take it seriously and stupidly imagine
the rest of the world should grant its doctrinal tenets.

If you are so open-minded, I would hate to see what
close-minded is.

Where "open minded" means stupid and gullible.

As it stands, the Holy Bible has been a guide for
billions of people throughout the years, yet you dismiss Christianity
as pure delusional fantasy.

You demonstrate it is, moron.

Christianity is the only religion in
which God came to earth to save us.

Where did you demonstrate the existence of this hypothetical "God" to
do that in the real world outside your religion, before rudely and
stupidly presuming?

It is not a quest to search for
God and the purpose of life,

Where did you demonstrate its real-world existence to be searched for,
question-begging moron?

because it mentions what the purpose of
life is.

Who gives a flying ***** what something as irrelevant as SOMEBODY
ELSE'S RELIGION has to say?

You do not have to earn your way to God in Christianity, you