On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:01:16 -0700, Immortalist
<reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sep 8, 11:02 pm, George Hammond <Nowhe...@notspam.net> wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 21:37:04 -0700, Immortalist
<snip>
[Hammond]
Your comparing the neuronal-cytoskeleton duality to the
words-letters duality has already been shown to be a
presumptive amateur error by the evidence.
It was an analogy of differing levels of activity, as your trying to
describe. Logically the comparison is allowed lest we eliminate the
possibility of using anything as an example of anything else. What are
in your criteria to establish such a standard as these two types of
organization serve no purpose of valid comparison as an end of
explaination?
[Hammond]
You apparently have no familiarity whatsoever with the
large literature surrounding the Penrose/Hameroff
(cytoskeleton) model of consciousness.
In that model Penrose/Hameroff clearly states their
research opinion that high level cogtnitive consciousness IS
being conducted at the microtubule level. For instance they
give the example of facial recognition in this paper
published in the Transactions of the Royal Society: see
Fig. 12 at:
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/orchOR.html
Where they give the example of seeing a familiar person and
deciding whether it is Amy, Betty or Carol. According to
their theory this high level cognition takes place at the
microtubule level where a "collapse of the wavefunction" in
the microtubules system results in the decision that it is
Carol.
Now, "collapsing wavefunctions" aside, the point is that
Penrose/Hameroff CLEARLY envision high level cognitive
functions such as "recognizing personal identity" as taking
place at the CYTOSKELETON (microtubule) level, and clearly
believe that all the necessary cognitive items are stored
and manipulated there.
Therefore there is, according to them high level
cognitive function occuring in both the MICRO brain, and in
the MACRO brain. In fact, they apparently believe that the
MACRO brain is a "mirror image" of the MICO brain, with the
MACRO brain being basically a "high power relay station" for
turning micro brain thinking into electric pulses that can
control muscles and organs!.
Therefore, according to them the SAME kind of thinking is
going on in the micro brain as is going on in the macro
brain.
Therefore, there certainly IS A DUALITY according to
them. and we certainly don't need 5 voumes of Aristotitlian
Posterior Analytics or any boring digressions into "Logic"
to assertain that.
[Hammond]
Fact is "consciousness" exists at both the cytoskeleton
and neuronal level..... this is apparent from the well known
example of a Paramecium which hunts for food, avoids
enemies, swims around obstacles, manifests learning ability,
and yet has NO NEURONS WHATSOEVER since it is a single
celled animal. An actual living example of "cytoskeleton
consciousness".
When looking at an E-Coli bacterium swimming around, it is easier to
see how randomness can buy food.
[Hammond]
Bacteria are NOT animals, and DO NOT HAVE microtubules. A
Parameciusm is an ANIMAL because its single cell is similar
to animal cells, and it does have a microtubule
cytoskeleton. You have apparently not read Penroses
(famous) analysis of the Paramecium in _Shadows of the
Mind_. Clearly in his opinion (and scientific opinion in
general) there is no comparison between the behavioral
activities of a Paramecium and a bacterium.
<snip... irrelevant material on random and irrelevant
mechanisms in bacterium>
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