Religions > Atheism > Re: Asserting the First Amendment Protection of the Right of the People to Establish Religion; discussion fails 10th A. test
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
19 Dec 2005 01:51:30 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Asserting the First Amendment Protection of the Right of the People to Establish Religion; discussion fails 10th A. test |
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|The main problem at this point is not a State establishing a religion
:|because, contrary to what atheists, separationists, anti-religious
:|expression activist justices and the liberal media want everybody to
:|believe, basic reading skills and common sense tell us that the 1st
:|Amendment's prohibitions on government power apply only to the federal
:|government and not to the States. Since no amendment explicitly
:|prohibits the power to legislate religion to the States like the 1st
:|explicitly prohibits Congress (federal government; aka United States)
:|from having this power, the 10th automatically reserved the power to
:|legislate religion to the States. After all, the States had this power
:|before the federal government and its Constitution even existed and
:|reserved this power uniquely for themselves when they established the
:|federal government and its Constitution.
:|
:|The real problem is the use of tax dollars for the 10 Commandments
:|display. Certain taxpaying factions, particularly atheists, have
:|reasonable grounds for objecting to the way that their tax dollars are
:|being spent:
:|
:|"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation
:|of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
:|--Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545
:|> Consider now that the Supreme Court rules that the act of the State
:|> legislature is UnConstitutional because it establishes religion in the
:|> State, and the the monument must be removed from the Statehouse.
:|
:|You are ignoring that because of the 10th Amendment, the Supreme Court
:|has no basis, other than dishonest, politically correct interpretation
:|of the 1st and 14th Amendments, for claiming that the State violated
:|the Constitution just because it established a religion. Again, the
:|States had the power to legislate religion before the federal
:|government and its Constitution even existed and reserved the power to
:|legislate religion uniquely to themselves as evidenced by the wording
:|of the 1st and 10th Amendments.
:|
:|The only basis for anybody to complain about the 10 Commandments
:|display is because 14th protected personal federal rights were possibly
:|violated because of the use of tax money to pay for the display; the
:|establishment clause has nothing to do with this.
:|
:|"Article 10: The powers not delegated to the United States by the
:|Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
:|States respectively, or to the people."
:|
:|When the 1st and 10th Amendments are considered together, it is
:|reasonable to conclude that the 10th reserved the power to legislate
:|religion to the States since the 1st explicitly prohibited this power
:|only to Congress (federal government; aka United States). Church-state
:|separation discussions which fail to mention the 10th are based on the
:|Court's scandalous interpretation of the establishment clause in the
:|Everson opinion:
:|
:|"The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at
:|least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a
:|church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all
:|religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor
:|influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his
:|will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No
:|person can be punished for entertain- [330 U.S. 1, 16] ing or
:|professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or
:|non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to
:|support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be
:|called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion.
:|Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly,
:|participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and
:|vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment
:|of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between
:|Church and State.' Reynolds v. United States, supra, 98 U.S. at page
:|164." -- Everson v. Board of Education of Ewing TP. 1947.
:|
:|You're barking up the wrong tree. The Justices should be impeached for
:|breaking their oath to defend the Constitution.
:|
:|>
:|> -------------------
Radicals in Robes (insignt into fred )
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.democrats.d/msg/c361b42ef2cf861d?hl=en&
Your shorter link is: http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q3225275C
******************************************************************************************
Evidence that shoots down just about every bit of fred's propaganda
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/290a32cf157dec89?hl=en&
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2651235C
Topics covered in the above that shoot downs fred's propaganda:
Differentiating the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses
*************************************************************************
James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
**************************************************************************
What legal standing did the Kentucky Resolutions have?
Hint: none!!!!!!!!
***********************************************************************
Meet another theocrat Meet Alan L. Keyes
Home site
------------------------------------
Religious Liberty as defined by him (alan Keyes)
------------------------------------
Alan Keyes / Alan Dershowitz
Does Organized Religion Hold Answers to the Problems of the 21st Century?
Debate, September 27, 2000
-------------------------------------
Alan Keyes vs
On the establishment of religion: What the Constitution really says
August 26, 2003
-------------------------------------------
Alans Keyes Positions on Particular Issues
***************************************************************************
Comments by Bob LeChevalier (alt.education guy fred wants to avoid)
****************************************************************************
ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE:, EVERSON & FOOTNOTES TO EVERSON
****************************************************************************
some commentary by Adenoid-Hin
Christ sake fred
"Essays" aren't law.
Citizens are afforded equal protection of law.
States cannot address constitutional questions that affect ALL
citizens and "interpretations" other than the USSC are bogus.
Government (state, local, federal) cannot set up, endorse, promote,
pander to, wink at, or in any way favor religious stupidity as policy.
Whether "Jefferson said" so or not, the interpretaton by the USSC (the
ONLY entity allowed to do so) has established that doctrine
generations ago.
Offering "essays", "writings", or other non-relevant, extraneous crap
won't alter the fact.
***********************************************************
The Nineteenth Century Supreme Court and “Republican Protestantism”
************************************************************
The Tenth Amendment was altered so that it really isn't as clear as many
people seem to think
(1) THE TENTH AMENDMENT
(2) THE BILL OF RIGHTS & THE TENTH AMENDMENT,
(3) THERE HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE WHAT THE FOUNDERS PASSED BY
ADDING THE WORD EXPRESSLY TO THE TENTH AMENDMENT: THE BATTLE OVER THE TENTH
AMENDMENT: OPENING A SECOND FRONT
************************************************************
Amend. To improve. To change for the better by
removing defects or faults. To change, correct,
revise. See Amendment.
Amendment. To change or modify for the better.
To alter by modification, deletion, or addition.
SOURCE: Black's Law Dictionary, Abridged Sixth Edition Centennial Edition
(1891-1991) West Publishing (1991) p 52
********************************************************
I said it was modified, not revoked. The 1st reads, "Congress shall
make no law ...". The 14th reads "No State shall make ... any law ..."
The 14th modifies the 1st to effectively read, "Congress and the
States shall make no law ..."
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:55:12 -0500
From: Josh Rosenbluth to fred
*****************************************************
The Williamsburg Charter, 1988
A Reaffirmation of the First Amendment
********************************************************************
Fourteenth Amendment, Selective Incorporation
***************************************************************
The following list shows the provisions in the Bill of Rights that have
been incorporated via the 14th Amendment:
[list snipped]
*****************************************************************
JEFFERSON DIDN'T CREATE CHURCH STATE SEPARAITON
However, Jefferson didn't create church state separation:
The principle of church state separation was embodied in the unamended
constitution long before Jefferson wrote a word to the Danbury Baptist
Assoc.
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
That honor belongs far more to James Madison
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.education/msg/f337c95be318d68b?hl=en&
Your shorter link is: http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2021275C
*******************************************************************************************
Everson v. Bd of Ed defined the Establishment Clasue.
Here are the footnotes that the court used to pen the definition:
FOOTNOTES TO EVERSON v. BD OF ED.
http://snurl.com/2pro
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
| User: "fred" |
|
| Title: Re: Asserting the First Amendment Protection of the Right of the People to Establish Religion; discussion fails 10th A. test |
21 Dec 2005 02:24:12 PM |
|
|
wrote:
<snipped for brevity>
:|
:|You're barking up the wrong tree. The Justices should be impeached for
:|breaking their oath to defend the Constitution.
:|
:|>
:|> -------------------
Radicals in Robes (insignt into fred )
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.democrats.d/msg/c361b42ef2cf861d?hl=en&
Your shorter link is: http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q3225275C
******************************************************************************************
Evidence that shoots down just about every bit of fred's propaganda
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/290a32cf157dec89?hl=en&
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2651235C
Topics covered in the above that shoot downs fred's propaganda:
I defend my points about the 1st and 10th Amendments with basic reading
skills and common sense. On the other hand, your confidence in your
assertions seems to be based on the fantasy that surely there must be
somebody, somewhere who can refute the points that I am making better
than your feeble attempts to do so.
Differentiating the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses
*************************************************************************
James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
**************************************************************************
What legal standing did the Kentucky Resolutions have?
Hint: none!!!!!!!!
***********************************************************************
Meet another theocrat Meet Alan L. Keyes
<snipped for brevity>
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Asserting the First Amendment Protection of the Right of the People to Establish Religion; discussion fails 10th A. test |
21 Dec 2005 03:03:11 PM |
|
|
On 21 Dec 2005 12:24:12 -0800, "fred"
<clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
I defend my points about the 1st and 10th Amendments with basic reading
skills and common sense.
YOUR "basic reading" an "common sense" has been proven
to be worthless day after day, Freddie
Second, YOU don't get to interpret constitutional law
Third, only ONE place does----that's the USSC
You've lost on all three counts.
.
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