| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
07 Jan 2005 11:43:02 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 09:32:10 -0600, Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:
We all know that some of the greatest crimes of the 20th century have
been committed by atheists. From Stalin's many murders, to Leopold
and Loeb's thrill kills, down to Madalyn Murray O'Hair's larceny.
So then, should atheism be blamed for all crimes that atheists commit
in the same way that atheists blame religion for the crimes of the
religious?
No, say the atheists. Atheism is not an organization or a belief,
and so can't be the cause of any behavior. (What then, caused the
formation of American Atheists?)
Even if, for the sake of argument, we grant the premise, it raises
another question: what then, is atheism? Atheists are more than
willing to explain what it is *not*, but are very evasive as to
what it *is*. At best, they may define it as a lack of belief.
But why have a whole newsgroup to discuss a lack of something?
Why an embarrassingly vocal organization called (in effect) American
Lack-ofsomethings? It just doesn't wash.
Why is this? Could it really be that atheists don't know what
atheism is? Not likely. They can be quite silly, but not *that*
silly. They act more as if they know what it is, but don't want to
discuss that.
One explanation fits the facts: ATHEISM IS A MORAL COPOUT. It is a
means of abdicating responsibility. And this harsh criticism of
religion is just a smoke screen.
Nihilism the ultimate moral copout. It says morality doesn't mean
anything. Atheism is a close second.
Hitler was a Roman Catholic. The Pope called him "The Defender of the
Faith." FOAD.
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
29 Jan 2005 04:06:27 PM |
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in article 1106313378.7a97897bbe399a3b90cf37b9857e1582@teranews, Pastor
Frank at wrote on 1/20/05 8:28 PM:
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:41EF4AC4.2B434E0D@netvigator.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
It's because atheists only look for imperfections and when they meet
perfection they don't recognise it.
Why keep asking this question of Frank? Frank epitomises perfection as
can be
clearly seen by reading his laboriously boring repetitive posts.
Religion panders to the 'better than thou' syndrome,
You are sure dense Bob and forgetful. By now you should know THERE ARE
NO perfect people in heaven, only forgiven sinners.
Which is why they expect no other rewards there...
Paul
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
16 Jan 2005 01:16:04 AM |
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CAN'T MANAGE A REPLY TO MY LAST POST EH? FRANK
GOT YOU REALLY WITH YOUR BACK TO THE WALL DID IT?
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Is that what you told the judge why you didn't believe in the laws of
the country, but only in what you consider your "moral responsibility" and
why you are posting this from jail now?
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4,16) and morality is only the
consequence of believing in our God, for to cause people to love and care is
the penultimate aim of our religions, if not the aim of most other religions
also. See below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have love one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
08 Jan 2005 04:13:36 AM |
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"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT in alt.atheism, T (T
<tberk@sbcglobal.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Indeed! Obedience is not morality.
Obedience is for people, like young children, who haven't learned morality
yet.
Obedience is a pre-moral state, for people who only understand the carrot
and stick.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Gary Bohn" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
08 Jan 2005 04:27:08 PM |
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"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in
news:foydnfgs0czSL0LcRVn-ig@io.com:
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT in alt.atheism, T (T
<tberk@sbcglobal.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and
is cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner
of any Religion?
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or
not and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are
based on the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori
assumption that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And
that amounts to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Indeed! Obedience is not morality.
Obedience is for people, like young children, who haven't learned
morality yet.
Obedience is a pre-moral state, for people who only understand the
carrot and stick.
That only came about when populations grew past familial sizes and
religions usurped the power of the alpha authority figure. By that time
morals had already evolving for over 100,000 years. It may be that our
morals have, to some extent, become part of our genetic makeup through
the 'Baldwin effect'. If they become disadvantageous to our societal
survival, unless we reduce the influence of religious stagnation, we may
not be able to develop new, more advantageous moral constructs.
--
apatriot #23, aa #1779, Grand Poobah (Pubbah)(Hell! head honcho), EAC
Department of Oxygen Deprivation Responsible for brain damage
everywhere!
Gary Bohn
Conservatism is the political philosophy that it ain't broke so don't
try to fix it. Therefore, if that is indeed how it is, that is what
ought to be.
The Wilkins
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
11 Jan 2005 01:46:10 PM |
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"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:41E3A5C0.F26B1033@netvigator.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Morals don't "evolve". We were all born with a measure of
empathy,
but learn to subdue it in favour of power over others.
You refer to the church and the leity here right franks?
You are such a hateful sob Bob. Where is the gun of the church, the
dollar, the law and police to have power? You are just talking out of your
hate, making no sense whatsoever. I think you miss-posted again, and forgot
to post your hate to flame groups. I will post you over to them.
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| User: "Phÿltêr" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
13 Jan 2005 04:35:13 AM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> astounded us with:
news:1105539559.7507796437b9bc51843d21df915f3385@teranews:
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:41E3A5C0.F26B1033@netvigator.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Morals don't "evolve". We were all born with a measure of
empathy,
but learn to subdue it in favour of power over others.
You refer to the church and the leity here right franks?
You are such a hateful sob Bob.
And you're such a smarmy ***** Frank.
--
Phÿltêr
AA#1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
Remove "s" to respond
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
12 Jan 2005 09:30:02 PM |
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In our last episode
<1105539559.7507796437b9bc51843d21df915f3385@teranews>, Pastor Frank lept
out of the bushes shouting:
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:41E3A5C0.F26B1033@netvigator.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Morals don't "evolve". We were all born with a measure of
empathy,
but learn to subdue it in favour of power over others.
You refer to the church and the leity here right franks?
You are such a hateful sob Bob. Where is the gun of the church, the
dollar, the law and police to have power? You are just talking out of your
hate, making no sense whatsoever. I think you miss-posted again, and
forgot to post your hate to flame groups. I will post you over to them.
Shrieks the hate monger Frank...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
09 Jan 2005 03:30:04 AM |
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"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:foydnfgs0czSL0LcRVn-ig@io.com...
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT in alt.atheism, T (T
<tberk@sbcglobal.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Indeed! Obedience is not morality.
Obedience is for people, like young children, who haven't learned morality
yet.
Obedience is a pre-moral state, for people who only understand the carrot
and stick.
Wrong!!! In religion, obedience is living up to principles no matter
what the consequences or temptations do ignore / subvert them. Whether those
principles were self-generated or derived from external sources hardly
matters.
Pastor Frank
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
09 Jan 2005 07:45:31 AM |
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On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:30:04 +0800 in alt.atheism, Pastor Frank
("Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:foydnfgs0czSL0LcRVn-ig@io.com...
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT in alt.atheism, T (T
<tberk@sbcglobal.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Indeed! Obedience is not morality.
Obedience is for people, like young children, who haven't learned morality
yet.
Obedience is a pre-moral state, for people who only understand the carrot
and stick.
Wrong!!! In religion, obedience is living up to principles no matter
what the consequences or temptations do ignore / subvert them. Whether those
principles were self-generated or derived from external sources hardly
matters.
Which may be so, as far as it goes, but misses the point by a mile.
The question at issue is whether someone who's "just following orders"
can be said to be a morally responsible agent.
.
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| User: "Chris Gyotar" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
09 Jan 2005 10:27:37 AM |
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"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:foydnfgs0czSL0LcRVn-ig@io.com...
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT in alt.atheism, T (T
<tberk@sbcglobal.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and
is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner
of
any Religion?
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Indeed! Obedience is not morality.
Obedience is for people, like young children, who haven't learned
morality
yet.
Obedience is a pre-moral state, for people who only understand the
carrot
and stick.
Wrong!!! In religion, obedience is living up to principles no matter
what the consequences or temptations do ignore / subvert them. Whether
those
principles were self-generated or derived from external sources hardly
matters.
Which may be so, as far as it goes, but misses the point by a mile.
The question at issue is whether someone who's "just following orders"
can be said to be a morally responsible agent.
You must understand why you are making a particular choice. You can not
merely follow a 'sacred' law without question and make moral decisions. This
is best represented when corrupt officials take up the head of state and
incite their ignorant masses to kill others. Besides, Religion has no place
in a civilized society anyways.
Chris
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| User: "JD" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
09 Jan 2005 06:02:26 AM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1105265668.d546efd265638dae1fc649f876243f2b@teranews...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:foydnfgs0czSL0LcRVn-ig@io.com...
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT in alt.atheism, T (T
<tberk@sbcglobal.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and
is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Indeed! Obedience is not morality.
Obedience is for people, like young children, who haven't learned
morality
yet.
Obedience is a pre-moral state, for people who only understand the carrot
and stick.
Wrong!!! In religion, obedience is living up to principles no matter
what the consequences or temptations do ignore / subvert them. Whether
those
principles were self-generated or derived from external sources hardly
matters.
Pastor Frank
Morality, independent of gods or whatever, also has to do with being able to
separate the consideration of consequences and temptations from "the right
thing to do" in a moral sense. It is arrogant, and not particularly well
thought out, to assume that only religion enables people to make this
distinction. To assume that an atheist cannot tell temptations from moral
principles! Please!
I must agree, obedience is something that has nothing to do with morality.
Putting your moral decisions into the hands of someone else is in my view
not moral. Blind trust, whether in gods or men, can get you into some
pretty nasty situations, morality-wise.
Morality is actually quite a simple concept, and has to do with treating
others as you would like to be treated. It is a basic principle of society,
completely independent of religion.
JD
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
09 Jan 2005 03:40:14 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1105265668.d546efd265638dae1fc649f876243f2b@teranews...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:foydnfgs0czSL0LcRVn-ig@io.com...
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT in alt.atheism, T (T
<tberk@sbcglobal.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and
is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Indeed! Obedience is not morality.
Obedience is for people, like young children, who haven't learned
morality
yet.
Obedience is a pre-moral state, for people who only understand the carrot
and stick.
Wrong!!! In religion, obedience is living up to principles no matter
what the consequences or temptations do ignore / subvert them. Whether
those
principles were self-generated or derived from external sources hardly
matters.
Yes, that's called blind obedience, not morality.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Rock-Viper" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
10 Jan 2005 03:08:31 PM |
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Hey jackass stop crossposting to groups that don't have anything to do
with your narrow minded religion.
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:foydnfgs0czSL0LcRVn-ig@io.com...
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT in alt.atheism, T (T
<tberk@sbcglobal.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Indeed! Obedience is not morality.
Obedience is for people, like young children, who haven't learned morality
yet.
Obedience is a pre-moral state, for people who only understand the carrot
and stick.
Wrong!!! In religion, obedience is living up to principles no matter
what the consequences or temptations do ignore / subvert them. Whether those
principles were self-generated or derived from external sources hardly
matters.
Pastor Frank
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness
.
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| User: "#" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
08 Jan 2005 05:07:43 AM |
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On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:17:07 +0000, Therion Ware wrote:
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
<breathe in>
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
How ironic that the quote on your sig file should actually be a reference
to a biblical verse being part of the recorded teachings of Jesus.
See Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
08 Jan 2005 05:28:52 AM |
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On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 00:07:43 +1300 in alt.atheism, # (#
<911@numbers.for.you>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:17:07 +0000, Therion Ware wrote:
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
<breathe in>
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
How ironic that the quote on your sig file should actually be a reference
to a biblical verse being part of the recorded teachings of Jesus.
See Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31
How ironic you should ignore the attributation, which gives the
quotation a rather different flavour. FYI:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345301110
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| User: "Gary Bohn" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
08 Jan 2005 04:31:24 PM |
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# <911@numbers.for.you> wrote in
news:1aalcj3v2e6b6$.1o4eomqu3dvrn$.dlg@40tude.net:
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:17:07 +0000, Therion Ware wrote:
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or
not and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are
based on the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori
assumption that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And
that amounts to the abdication of moral responsibility.
<breathe in>
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
How ironic that the quote on your sig file should actually be a
reference to a biblical verse being part of the recorded teachings of
Jesus.
See Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31
Assuming you mean by 'recording', giving permanence to live events,
writing down myths, years after they supposedly happened is not
recording.
--
apatriot #23, aa #1779, Grand Poobah (Pubbah)(Hell! head honcho), EAC
Department of Oxygen Deprivation Responsible for brain damage
everywhere!
Gary Bohn
Conservatism is the political philosophy that it ain't broke so don't
try to fix it. Therefore, if that is indeed how it is, that is what
ought to be.
The Wilkins
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| User: "jesshc" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
08 Jan 2005 10:02:39 AM |
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# wrote:
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:17:07 +0000, Therion Ware wrote:
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
How ironic that the quote on your sig file should actually be a
reference
to a biblical verse being part of the recorded teachings of Jesus.
See Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31
Read more than one book.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/notes/golden.html
The Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do to you) and
the Wiccan Rede (If no harm is done, do as you will) are forms of the
Ethic of Reciprocity. Greek philosophers in the fourth centurybce
derived it from logic as the most basic moral code. It is the most
basic
relativistic-logic ethic, and on account of it's simplicity it is the
most universal moral code known; appearing in nearly all cultures,
being derived
from multiple teachers, religions and philosophies at different times
in different ways. The oldest appearance of it in an organized system
dates to
at least 1500bce.
"Every atheist I have known has always fallen back upon the one concept
echoed worldwide, and taught by religious and secular leaders
throughout all time: the so-called "Golden Rule." Jesus was repeating
an old Jewish proverb when he said "Do unto others as you would have
them do unto you," and Confucius was recording an old Chinese saying
when he wrote "Do not do to others what you would not want done to
you."
All atheist systems of morality seem to derive in various ways from
this core principle, and so it would be appropriate to say that
atheists stand for the Golden Rule in its fullest meaning and
significance. I believe that any rule or belief which violates this
principle is discarded by most atheists as immoral..." Richard
Carrier, 1999 3
"The principle of reciprocity is often the justification, motivation
and, in some cases, the essence of a moral code." "A History of Sin"
by Oliver Thomson, Hardback Edition, Canongate Press, 1993, p34
http://www.diamondhelpers.com/loveandlife/famousquotes/goldenrule.shtml
"This is the sum of duty. Do not unto others that which would cause you
pain if done to you."
-- Mahabharata 5:1517, from the Vedic tradition of India, circa 3000 BC
"What is hateful to you, do not to our fellow man. That is entire Law,
all the rest is commentary."
-- Talmud, Shabbat 31a, from the Judaic tradition, circa 1300 BC
"That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another
whatsoeveris not good for itself."
-- Avesta, Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5, from the Zoroastrian tradition, circa
600 BC
"Hurt not others in ways that you find hurtful."
-- Tripitaka, Udanga-varga 5,18 , from the Buddhist tradition, circa
525 BC
"Surely it is the maxim of loving kindness, do not unto others that
which you would not have done unto you."
-- Analects, Lun-yu XV,23, from the Confucian tradition, circa 500 BC
"One should treat all beings as he himself would be treated."
-- Agamas, Sutrakrtanga 1.10, 1-3, from the Jain tradition, circa 500
BC
"Regard your neighbor's gain as your gain and your neighbor's loss as
your loss."
-- Tai-shang Kang-ying P'ien, from the Taoist tradition, circa 500 BC
"Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to
you."
-- Socrates (the Greek philosopher), circa 470-399 BC
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
09 Jan 2005 02:14:37 PM |
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"jesshc" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote in message
news:1105200159.028874.190670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
# wrote:
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:17:07 +0000, Therion Ware wrote:
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
How ironic that the quote on your sig file should actually be a
reference
to a biblical verse being part of the recorded teachings of Jesus.
See Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31
Read more than one book.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/notes/golden.html
The Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do to you) and
the Wiccan Rede (If no harm is done, do as you will) are forms of the
Ethic of Reciprocity. Greek philosophers in the fourth centurybce
derived it from logic as the most basic moral code. It is the most
basic
relativistic-logic ethic, and on account of it's simplicity it is the
most universal moral code known; appearing in nearly all cultures,
being derived
from multiple teachers, religions and philosophies at different times
in different ways. The oldest appearance of it in an organized system
dates to at least 1500bce.
"Every atheist I have known has always fallen back upon the one concept
echoed worldwide, and taught by religious and secular leaders
throughout all time: the so-called "Golden Rule." Jesus was repeating
an old Jewish proverb when he said "Do unto others as you would have
them do unto you," and Confucius was recording an old Chinese saying
when he wrote "Do not do to others what you would not want done to
you."
All atheist systems of morality seem to derive in various ways from
this core principle, and so it would be appropriate to say that
atheists stand for the Golden Rule in its fullest meaning and
significance. I believe that any rule or belief which violates this
principle is discarded by most atheists as immoral..." Richard
Carrier, 1999 3
Yes. However you fail to mention, that this rule is also the most
ignored of all rules of conduct. That is why religions exists, -to motivate
mankind by various method to actually implement this rule, instead we turn
up the music to drown out the screams of the tortured, the wails of the
wronged, dispossessed and bereaved and build monuments to ourselves atop an
ever increasing number of mass-graves. Most only pay lip service to Jesus
and so many others like Him who preach loving and caring.
Pastor Frank
The most important, yet most ignored commandments of Christ:
THE ROYAL LAW OF CHRIST
**Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
**31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
**Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments."
THE GOLDEN RULE OF CHRIST
Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them...."
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
08 Jan 2005 07:45:10 AM |
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In our last episode <1aalcj3v2e6b6$.1o4eomqu3dvrn$.dlg@40tude.net>, # lept
out of the bushes shouting:
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:17:07 +0000, Therion Ware wrote:
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory obeying
the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not and such
moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on the
commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption that
those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts to the
abdication of moral responsibility.
<breathe in>
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." - Attrib: Pauline
Reage.
How ironic that the quote on your sig file should actually be a reference
to a biblical verse being part of the recorded teachings of Jesus.
So the people who wrote the bible could copy other people's works. Shrug.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
08 Jan 2005 07:44:07 AM |
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In our last episode <MsMDd.245$JI3.222@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, T lept
out of the bushes shouting:
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
That's because Craptimus has no life and spends all day trolling utterly
unrelated groups for some bizarre reason that wouldn't make any sense to
sane people even if they knew what it was.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
08 Jan 2005 07:44:33 AM |
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In our last episode <MsMDd.245$JI3.222@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, T lept
out of the bushes shouting:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
Oh, by the way, of course it is.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
09 Jan 2005 04:01:04 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:AN2dnbpz7pQtf0LcRVn-sg@megapath.net...
In our last episode <MsMDd.245$JI3.222@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, T lept
out of the bushes shouting:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
Oh, by the way, of course it is.
I whose guaranteed unbiased judgment?
Pastor Frank
JUDGMENT
Jesus in Mt:18:7: Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must
needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence
cometh!
Jesus in Mt:7:2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Jesus in Mt:23:12: And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased;
and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Jesus in Mt:6:21: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be
also.
Jesus in Mt:12:34-37: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil,
speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things:
and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I
say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give
account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be
justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
09 Jan 2005 09:02:59 AM |
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In our last episode
<1105265685.2910168547f8128f77529f1b30534c8d@teranews>, Pastor Frank lept
out of the bushes shouting:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:AN2dnbpz7pQtf0LcRVn-sg@megapath.net...
In our last episode <MsMDd.245$JI3.222@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, T
lept out of the bushes shouting:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner
of any Religion?
Oh, by the way, of course it is.
I whose guaranteed unbiased judgment?
The hell you say!
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
10 Jan 2005 01:09:31 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:AN2dnbpz7pQtf0LcRVn-sg@megapath.net...
In our last episode <MsMDd.245$JI3.222@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, T lept
out of the bushes shouting:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
Oh, by the way, of course it is.
I whose guaranteed unbiased judgment?
Oooooh where would they be without that old book of fables?
Pastor Frank
JUDGMENT
Jesus in Mt:18:7: Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must
needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence
cometh!
Jesus in Mt:7:2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Jesus in Mt:23:12: And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased;
and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Jesus in Mt:6:21: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be
also.
Jesus in Mt:12:34-37: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil,
speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things:
and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I
say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give
account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be
justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
08 Jan 2005 08:14:08 AM |
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On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT, T <tberk@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
Religion isn't moralality. It's a cop out. It's looking in a book of
self contradicting rules so you can do the same thing as a group of
other people instead of sitting down yourself and figuring out what's
right.
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
09 Jan 2005 01:24:42 PM |
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"Kate " <cobalt@newscene.com> wrote in message
news:41e3e9d6.47758937@news-west.newscene.com...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT, T <tberk@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
Religion isn't moralality. It's a cop out. It's looking in a book of
self contradicting rules so you can do the same thing as a group of
other people instead of sitting down yourself and figuring out what's
right.
Would be OK if you actually would do that, but most don't "sit down and
figure out what's right" and then actually do it. Most look to what others
are doing and imitate them.
We think looking toward Jesus and imitating Him would produce the best
results. Jesus tells us to be humane, i.e. loving, caring and kind above
all, and to "sit down and figure out yourself" how best to be that way.
Pastor Frank
LOVE
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have love one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
Jesus in John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command...
Jesus in John 14:21-24 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the
one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will
love him and show myself to him." He who does not love me will not obey my
teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who
sent me."
Jesus in Mt:7:21-23: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy
name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never
knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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| User: "L. Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
08 Jan 2005 02:17:53 AM |
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On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT, T wrote:
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
Of course, provided one has any human decency. It is an evil person
who must be told it is bad to kill others.
--
L. Raymond
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
10 Jan 2005 12:51:57 PM |
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"L. Raymond" <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:1ev1s9uhdrpf2$.1rzphfpc250gf.dlg@40tude.net...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT, T wrote:
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
Of course, provided one has any human decency. It is an evil person
who must be told it is bad to kill others.
Are you calling our soldiers "evil persons"? You are treading on
religious territory when talking about "human decency", "evil persons" etc.
No one is born with that knowledge, and you listening to your pals instead
of an authoritative voice such as the Word of God, our Bible, will only
cause you to go astray.
Pastor Frank
"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do
nothing."--Edmund Burke
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
11 Jan 2005 06:14:04 AM |
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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:51:57 +0800 in alt.atheism, Pastor Frank
("Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Are you the real Frank, or the fake? Dunno... oh well....
"L. Raymond" <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:1ev1s9uhdrpf2$.1rzphfpc250gf.dlg@40tude.net...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT, T wrote:
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner of
any Religion?
Of course, provided one has any human decency. It is an evil person
who must be told it is bad to kill others.
Are you calling our soldiers "evil persons"? You are treading on
religious territory when talking about "human decency", "evil persons" etc.
No one is born with that knowledge,
You're saying humans have no innate knowledge of good and evil?! This
seems a peculiar position for a Christian to take and I can't help but
wonder if you'd care to deny original sin while you're at it?
and you listening to your pals instead
of an authoritative voice such as the Word of God, our Bible, will only
cause you to go astray.
Well, it's a tricky issue, isn't it? Prior to Constantine, pacifism
while not the general rule in Christianity was not uncommon, and there
are many stories from that era where converted soldiers refused to
kill even when threatened with execution and were executed.
I suppose it all comes down to the convenience of which translation
one prefers as regards "thou shalt not kill," vs "thou shalt not
murder" where "murder" is killing of the, ah, convenient kind
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: www.Video2CD.com. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
Market Your DVD to The World For Almost Nothing: www.instantdvd.tv
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
11 Jan 2005 10:01:59 AM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1105440162.bed9312dd45b6921961c6e38ff324b6c@teranews...
"L. Raymond" <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:1ev1s9uhdrpf2$.1rzphfpc250gf.dlg@40tude.net...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:02:52 GMT, T wrote:
(Well, this thread just showed up in alt.tv.star-trek.enterprise, and
is
cross posted to Hell and back, isn't it?)
Taking a neutral position I'd ask a seemingly rhetorical question:
- Is it possible be Morally Responsible without being a practitioner
of
any Religion?
Of course, provided one has any human decency. It is an evil person
who must be told it is bad to kill others.
Are you calling our soldiers "evil persons"? You are treading on
religious territory when talking about "human decency", "evil persons"
etc.
Human decency exists outside the realm of, and manay times in SPPITE of,
religion, moron!
No one is born with that knowledge, and you listening to your pals instead
of an authoritative voice such as the Word of God, our Bible, will only
cause you to go astray.
Your god . or your bible - are authorities ONLY if you can support either of
them with supportive evidence.
You haven't;
you won't;
because you can't.
BTW .. brainless .... if it weren't for "your pals" - you never would have
heard about christianity in the first place.
Even YOU admit that we aren't born knowing these things ... so SOMEONE has
to tell us.
However - because of your past posts, I wonder if you think YOU got a direct
message from god, while in your crib, to become his second "chosen one".
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