| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Pastor Frank" |
| Date: |
24 Jan 2005 07:55:07 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:eubfu0ln9fctgosaq9sohhnhfvatbhau8d@4ax.com...
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 06:38:45 +0800 in alt.atheism, Pastor Frank
("Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Is that what you told the judge why you didn't believe in the laws of
the country, but only in what you consider your "moral responsibility"
and
why you are posting this from jail now?
Good point, though I think you should put the point to Gandhi rather
than me. This is to say that sometimes it is moral to break the law
rather than to obey it, and I presume that in certain circumstances,
you'd agree. If - even under a restricted set of circumstances you do
agree - how do you decide whether that's the case?
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4,16) and morality is only the
consequence of believing in our God, for to cause people to love and care
is
the penultimate aim of our religions, if not the aim of most other
religions
also. See below
If "morality is only the consequence of believing in out God," how do
you explain the widely varying takes on morality expressed by
Christians over the centuries?
The Christian church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners, meaning
that it is filled with sinners seeking healing for their compulsions,
addictions, aggressions and fears.
Are you an atheist, believing that the church feeds their patients some
kind of magic pill called Christianity, which will transform everyone into
uniform Christians, all the spitting image of Christ, something like a
plastic Jesus factory? LOL
Give us a break already, willya???
Pastor Frank
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness
.
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| User: "The_Sage" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
29 Jan 2005 04:17:26 AM |
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Reply to article by: "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>
Date written: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:55:07 +0800
MsgID:<1106571488.5b002e013baa42511278820e686b3d18@teranews>
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Is that what you told the judge why you didn't believe in the laws of
the country, but only in what you consider your "moral responsibility" and
why you are posting this from jail now?
Good point, though I think you should put the point to Gandhi rather
than me. This is to say that sometimes it is moral to break the law
rather than to obey it, and I presume that in certain circumstances,
you'd agree. If - even under a restricted set of circumstances you do
agree - how do you decide whether that's the case?
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4,16) and morality is only the
consequence of believing in our God, for to cause people to love and care is
the penultimate aim of our religions, if not the aim of most other religions
also. See below
If "morality is only the consequence of believing in out God," how do
you explain the widely varying takes on morality expressed by
Christians over the centuries?
The Christian church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners, meaning
that it is filled with sinners seeking healing for their compulsions,
addictions, aggressions and fears.
Are you an atheist, believing that the church feeds their patients some
kind of magic pill called Christianity, which will transform everyone into
uniform Christians, all the spitting image of Christ, something like a
plastic Jesus factory? LOL
Give us a break already, willya???
The Bible clearly disagrees with you:
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are
passed away; behold, all things are become new (II Cor 5:17)
and
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness (Rom
6:18)
Where are all the "new creatures in Christ" that Paul spoke of? Nowhere. Where
are all the servants of righteousness hiding? All this talk about being free
from sin and God's commandments written onto soft hearts instead of hard rock
yet not a single living example?
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"The men that American people admire most extravagantly are
most daring liars; the men they detest the most violently are
those who try to tell them the truth" -- H. L. Mencken
=============================================================
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
30 Jan 2005 03:07:04 AM |
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"The_Sage" <specialoffers@CityBend.com> wrote in message
news:a33mv096e6ij8jt42kk106in05ndgotf61@4ax.com...
Reply to article by: "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>
Date written: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:55:07 +0800
MsgID:<1106571488.5b002e013baa42511278820e686b3d18@teranews>
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Is that what you told the judge why you didn't believe in the laws
of
the country, but only in what you consider your "moral responsibility"
and
why you are posting this from jail now?
Good point, though I think you should put the point to Gandhi rather
than me. This is to say that sometimes it is moral to break the law
rather than to obey it, and I presume that in certain circumstances,
you'd agree. If - even under a restricted set of circumstances you do
agree - how do you decide whether that's the case?
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4,16) and morality is only the
consequence of believing in our God, for to cause people to love and
care is
the penultimate aim of our religions, if not the aim of most other
religions
also. See below
If "morality is only the consequence of believing in out God," how do
you explain the widely varying takes on morality expressed by
Christians over the centuries?
The Christian church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners,
meaning
that it is filled with sinners seeking healing for their compulsions,
addictions, aggressions and fears.
Are you an atheist, believing that the church feeds their patients
some
kind of magic pill called Christianity, which will transform everyone
into
uniform Christians, all the spitting image of Christ, something like a
plastic Jesus factory? LOL
Give us a break already, willya???
The Bible clearly disagrees with you:
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things
are
passed away; behold, all things are become new (II Cor 5:17)
and
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness
(Rom
6:18)
Where are all the "new creatures in Christ" that Paul spoke of? Nowhere.
Where
are all the servants of righteousness hiding? All this talk about being
free
from sin and God's commandments written onto soft hearts instead of hard
rock
yet not a single living example?
I see, and you believe, that as soon as we are "new creatures" the devil
will go home and leave us alone? LOL
As long as we are subject to temptations and fears we are sinners.
Perhaps forgiven sinners, but sinners nonetheless. So you are correct to say
you have never met a perfect Christian yet, but then, neither have I.
If you are posting from a.a. please remove Christian NGs from your
header. Thanks.
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mat 5:14-16: Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set
on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a
bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the
house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good
works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
.
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| User: "The_Sage" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
01 Feb 2005 01:40:01 AM |
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Reply to article by: "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>
Date written: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:07:04 +0800
MsgID:<1107080112.44603bec663471d5f45906ac5e93cee2@teranews>
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Is that what you told the judge why you didn't believe in the laws of
the country, but only in what you consider your "moral responsibility" and
why you are posting this from jail now?
Good point, though I think you should put the point to Gandhi rather
than me. This is to say that sometimes it is moral to break the law
rather than to obey it, and I presume that in certain circumstances,
you'd agree. If - even under a restricted set of circumstances you do
agree - how do you decide whether that's the case?
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4,16) and morality is only the
consequence of believing in our God, for to cause people to love and care is
the penultimate aim of our religions, if not the aim of most other religions
also. See below
If "morality is only the consequence of believing in out God," how do
you explain the widely varying takes on morality expressed by
Christians over the centuries?
The Christian church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners, meaning
that it is filled with sinners seeking healing for their compulsions,
addictions, aggressions and fears.
Are you an atheist, believing that the church feeds their patients some
kind of magic pill called Christianity, which will transform everyone into
uniform Christians, all the spitting image of Christ, something like a
plastic Jesus factory? LOL
Give us a break already, willya???
The Bible clearly disagrees with you:
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are
passed away; behold, all things are become new (II Cor 5:17)
and
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness (Rom
6:18)
Where are all the "new creatures in Christ" that Paul spoke of? Nowhere. Where
are all the servants of righteousness hiding? All this talk about being free
from sin and God's commandments written onto soft hearts instead of hard rock
yet not a single living example?
I see, and you believe, that as soon as we are "new creatures" the devil
will go home and leave us alone? LOL
That isn't what the Bible or I said. The Bible says, as anyone can see, that
when you become a Christian you become a "new creature" who "serves
righteousness".
As long as we are subject to temptations and fears we are sinners.
Perhaps forgiven sinners, but sinners nonetheless. So you are correct to say
you have never met a perfect Christian yet, but then, neither have I.
The Bible didn't say perfect, it said "new creatures" and "servant of
righteousness". Since Christians sin just as much as the non-believers, there is
nothing new about their nature, nor is there any evidence that they serve
righteousness instead of unrighteousness...and you agree.
If you are posting from a.a. please remove Christian NGs from your
header. Thanks.
If you are posting from anything Christian, please remove a.a. groups from your
header.
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"The men that American people admire most extravagantly are
most daring liars; the men they detest the most violently are
those who try to tell them the truth" -- H. L. Mencken
=============================================================
.
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| User: "RainLover" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
25 Jan 2005 03:40:24 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:55:07 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:eubfu0ln9fctgosaq9sohhnhfvatbhau8d@4ax.com...
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 06:38:45 +0800 in alt.atheism, Pastor Frank
("Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Is that what you told the judge why you didn't believe in the laws of
the country, but only in what you consider your "moral responsibility"
and
why you are posting this from jail now?
Good point, though I think you should put the point to Gandhi rather
than me. This is to say that sometimes it is moral to break the law
rather than to obey it, and I presume that in certain circumstances,
you'd agree. If - even under a restricted set of circumstances you do
agree - how do you decide whether that's the case?
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4,16) and morality is only the
consequence of believing in our God, for to cause people to love and care
is
the penultimate aim of our religions, if not the aim of most other
religions
also. See below
If "morality is only the consequence of believing in out God," how do
you explain the widely varying takes on morality expressed by
Christians over the centuries?
The Christian church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners, meaning
that it is filled with sinners seeking healing for their compulsions,
addictions, aggressions and fears.
What is this? A cut and paste phrase for you? How did what you wrote
answer the QUESTION?
Are you an atheist, believing that the church feeds their patients some
kind of magic pill called Christianity, which will transform everyone into
uniform Christians, all the spitting image of Christ, something like a
plastic Jesus factory? LOL
I think one problem some atheists have with 'christians', myself
included, is that we see absolutely no difference in the ACTIONS of a
"christian" verses an atheist. NONE.
Well.... one... the hypocrisy is often dumbfounding with the
christians. Other than the holier than thou attitudes and 1 1/2 hours
every sunday (or one sunday a month... or a year) Christians act just
like atheists.
Give us a break already, willya???
Give YOU a break? A simple question was asked, and you gave your pat,
one-answer-fits-all answer. Why not answer the question? Here it is
again in case you missed it:
If "morality is only the consequence of believing in our God," how do
you explain the widely varying takes on morality expressed by
Christians over the centuries?
And might I add a second part to that question... why does the
morality vary 180 degrees even today when comparing different
Christian sects?
James, Seattle
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
26 Jan 2005 12:57:29 PM |
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"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:4mpcv0933trg9stp3rltdoe588s6dgjh3m@4ax.com...
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:55:07 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
The Christian church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners,
meaning
that it is filled with sinners seeking healing for their compulsions,
addictions, aggressions and fears.
What is this? A cut and paste phrase for you? How did what you wrote
answer the QUESTION?
Are you an atheist, believing that the church feeds their patients
some
kind of magic pill called Christianity, which will transform everyone
into
uniform Christians, all the spitting image of Christ, something like a
plastic Jesus factory? LOL
I think one problem some atheists have with 'christians', myself
included, is that we see absolutely no difference in the ACTIONS of a
"christian" verses an atheist. NONE.
Well.... one... the hypocrisy is often dumbfounding with the
christians. Other than the holier than thou attitudes and 1 1/2 hours
every sunday (or one sunday a month... or a year) Christians act just
like atheists.
Give us a break already, willya???
Give YOU a break? A simple question was asked, and you gave your pat,
one-answer-fits-all answer. Why not answer the question? Here it is
again in case you missed it:
If "morality is only the consequence of believing in our God," how do
you explain the widely varying takes on morality expressed by
Christians over the centuries?
And might I add a second part to that question... why does the
morality vary 180 degrees even today when comparing different
Christian sects?
You must have missed it, but I just explained that the church is a
hospital for sinners, who are looking for healing for their problems. So it
follows that the morality of Christians may be not be at all "the same" as
those of atheists, but a great deal worse.
Are you one of those guys, who runs through hospitals declaring yourself
to be healthy and in no need of treatment, telling patients if they were
only to follow you and be atheist like you, they would be healthy too?
I think you exhibit symptoms of terminal hubris, if not delusions of
grandeur, and are badly in need of treatment yourself. Please report to the
nearest church quickly.
Pastor Frank
GODS
Jeremiah 10:5 They are upright like the palm tree, but speak not. They
must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them, for
they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Jesus in Jn:10:33-36: The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we
stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man,
makest thyself God. Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law, I
said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the Word of God came,
and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath
sanctified, and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am
the Son of God?
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
26 Jan 2005 03:49:45 PM |
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In our last episode
<1106747479.045f1b093e4fdc1ca903ad95ffa24155@teranews>, Pastor Frank
lumbered into the room and mumbled:
I think you exhibit symptoms of terminal hubris, if not delusions of
grandeur, and are badly in need of treatment yourself.
Pot. Kettle. As usual...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "RainLover" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
27 Jan 2005 02:29:53 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:57:29 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:4mpcv0933trg9stp3rltdoe588s6dgjh3m@4ax.com...
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:55:07 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
The Christian church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners,
meaning
that it is filled with sinners seeking healing for their compulsions,
addictions, aggressions and fears.
What is this? A cut and paste phrase for you? How did what you wrote
answer the QUESTION?
Are you an atheist, believing that the church feeds their patients
some
kind of magic pill called Christianity, which will transform everyone
into
uniform Christians, all the spitting image of Christ, something like a
plastic Jesus factory? LOL
I think one problem some atheists have with 'christians', myself
included, is that we see absolutely no difference in the ACTIONS of a
"christian" verses an atheist. NONE.
Well.... one... the hypocrisy is often dumbfounding with the
christians. Other than the holier than thou attitudes and 1 1/2 hours
every sunday (or one sunday a month... or a year) Christians act just
like atheists.
Give us a break already, willya???
Give YOU a break? A simple question was asked, and you gave your pat,
one-answer-fits-all answer. Why not answer the question? Here it is
again in case you missed it:
If "morality is only the consequence of believing in our God," how do
you explain the widely varying takes on morality expressed by
Christians over the centuries?
And might I add a second part to that question... why does the
morality vary 180 degrees even today when comparing different
Christian sects?
You must have missed it, but I just explained that the church is a
hospital for sinners, who are looking for healing for their problems. So it
follows that the morality of Christians may be not be at all "the same" as
those of atheists, but a great deal worse.
Are you one of those guys, who runs through hospitals declaring yourself
to be healthy and in no need of treatment, telling patients if they were
only to follow you and be atheist like you, they would be healthy too?
Not at all, but if you were sick and had two different hospitals
telling you the complete opposite information, you'd be wary... yet
with Christianity, you just find a "hospital" that agrees with your
personal diagnoses of yourself and check in there.
I think there are very healthy people who call themselves Christians.
Of course, the "hospital" (church) only makes money by diagnosing a
'disease' in need of that special healing that only THEY can provide.
If a medical hospital tried this, they'd be labeled a quack and have
their licenses taken away.
I think you exhibit symptoms of terminal hubris, if not delusions of
grandeur, and are badly in need of treatment yourself. Please report to the
nearest church quickly.
If hubris was a disease then many christians here would be on their
deathbeds.
James, Seattle
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
28 Jan 2005 08:36:17 AM |
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"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:1auhv05oorbbdaf2fv7kqm1ksoar9v3trt@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:57:29 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:4mpcv0933trg9stp3rltdoe588s6dgjh3m@4ax.com...
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:55:07 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
The Christian church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners,
meaning
that it is filled with sinners seeking healing for their compulsions,
addictions, aggressions and fears.
What is this? A cut and paste phrase for you? How did what you wrote
answer the QUESTION?
Are you an atheist, believing that the church feeds their patients
some
kind of magic pill called Christianity, which will transform everyone
into
uniform Christians, all the spitting image of Christ, something like a
plastic Jesus factory? LOL
I think one problem some atheists have with 'christians', myself
included, is that we see absolutely no difference in the ACTIONS of a
"christian" verses an atheist. NONE.
Well.... one... the hypocrisy is often dumbfounding with the
christians. Other than the holier than thou attitudes and 1 1/2 hours
every sunday (or one sunday a month... or a year) Christians act just
like atheists.
And your judgment is of course impartial and infallible? How many
Christian sinners have you observed who strut their sin with an "holier than
thou" attitude? Personally I don't know of any. Looks to me you have an ax
to grind.
Give us a break already, willya???
Give YOU a break? A simple question was asked, and you gave your pat,
one-answer-fits-all answer. Why not answer the question? Here it is
again in case you missed it:
If "morality is only the consequence of believing in our God," how
do
you explain the widely varying takes on morality expressed by
Christians over the centuries?
And might I add a second part to that question... why does the
morality vary 180 degrees even today when comparing different
Christian sects?
You must have missed it, but I just explained that the church is a
hospital for sinners, who are looking for healing for their problems. So
it
follows that the morality of Christians may be not be at all "the same"
as
those of atheists, but a great deal worse.
Are you one of those guys, who runs through hospitals declaring
yourself
to be healthy and in no need of treatment, telling patients if they were
only to follow you and be atheist like you, they would be healthy too?
Not at all, but if you were sick and had two different hospitals
telling you the complete opposite information, you'd be wary... yet
with Christianity, you just find a "hospital" that agrees with your
personal diagnoses of yourself and check in there.
"If"? You pose too many exceptions. How often have you had hospitals
giving you opposing diagnosis, or admit you for no apparent reason?
I think there are very healthy people who call themselves Christians.
Thanks. But especially the healthy admit they are sinners, it's only the
unhealthy who are in denial.
Of course, the "hospital" (church) only makes money by diagnosing a
'disease' in need of that special healing that only THEY can provide.
If a medical hospital tried this, they'd be labeled a quack and have
their licenses taken away.
Most hospitals specialize and don't treat all diseases. The church
speciallizes in emotional ills, so they are not duplicating nor infringing
on any licensed profession. Also churches provide free service, but
naturally would appreciate a donation, which is hardly the case with any
other service, especially atheist ones.
I think you exhibit symptoms of terminal hubris, if not delusions of
grandeur, and are badly in need of treatment yourself. Please report to
the
nearest church quickly.
If hubris was a disease then many christians here would be on their
deathbeds.
Are you a licensed mental health care practitioner, who can make
qualified judgments like that? It's amazing how you are apparently
surrounded by Christian sinners proudly strutting their sin, where I don't
hardly know any. I think you just make stuff up as you go along in order to
have someone answer your posts. LOL
Pastor Frank
troll (trol) verb
To post a message in a newsgroup or other online conference in
the hopes, that somebody else will consider the original message so
outrageous, that it demands a heated reply.
A classic example of a troll is, to post an article in favor of
torturing cats in a pet lovers' newsgroup.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
28 Jan 2005 06:25:42 PM |
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|
In our last episode
<1106918188.6ecb1aef104bed8a1f265f69e0fed592@teranews>, Pastor Frank
lumbered into the room and mumbled:
troll (trol) verb
To post a message in a newsgroup or other online conference in
the hopes, that somebody else will consider the original message so
outrageous, that it demands a heated reply.
A classic example of a troll is, to post an article in favor of
torturing cats in a pet lovers' newsgroup.
See also: "Pastor" Frank.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
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| User: "RainLover" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
28 Jan 2005 01:51:11 PM |
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On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:36:17 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:1auhv05oorbbdaf2fv7kqm1ksoar9v3trt@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:57:29 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:4mpcv0933trg9stp3rltdoe588s6dgjh3m@4ax.com...
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:55:07 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
The Christian church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners,
meaning
that it is filled with sinners seeking healing for their compulsions,
addictions, aggressions and fears.
What is this? A cut and paste phrase for you? How did what you wrote
answer the QUESTION?
Are you an atheist, believing that the church feeds their patients
some
kind of magic pill called Christianity, which will transform everyone
into
uniform Christians, all the spitting image of Christ, something like a
plastic Jesus factory? LOL
I think one problem some atheists have with 'christians', myself
included, is that we see absolutely no difference in the ACTIONS of a
"christian" verses an atheist. NONE.
Well.... one... the hypocrisy is often dumbfounding with the
christians. Other than the holier than thou attitudes and 1 1/2 hours
every sunday (or one sunday a month... or a year) Christians act just
like atheists.
And your judgment is of course impartial and infallible? How many
Christian sinners have you observed who strut their sin with an "holier than
thou" attitude? Personally I don't know of any. Looks to me you have an ax
to grind.
I've met MANY 'christians' who strut their holier-than-thou attitude
all over the place, yet by their own admission, they are sinners as
well. That never stops them from casting stones though, does it?
THAT is where the hypocrisy comes in. The bumpersticker christian
philosophy of "not perfect, just forgive" smacks of that hypocrisy,
and many christians DO strut around with that attitude.
Give us a break already, willya???
Give YOU a break? A simple question was asked, and you gave your pat,
one-answer-fits-all answer. Why not answer the question? Here it is
again in case you missed it:
If "morality is only the consequence of believing in our God," how
do
you explain the widely varying takes on morality expressed by
Christians over the centuries?
And might I add a second part to that question... why does the
morality vary 180 degrees even today when comparing different
Christian sects?
You must have missed it, but I just explained that the church is a
hospital for sinners, who are looking for healing for their problems. So
it
follows that the morality of Christians may be not be at all "the same"
as
those of atheists, but a great deal worse.
Are you one of those guys, who runs through hospitals declaring
yourself
to be healthy and in no need of treatment, telling patients if they were
only to follow you and be atheist like you, they would be healthy too?
Not at all, but if you were sick and had two different hospitals
telling you the complete opposite information, you'd be wary... yet
with Christianity, you just find a "hospital" that agrees with your
personal diagnoses of yourself and check in there.
"If"? You pose too many exceptions. How often have you had hospitals
giving you opposing diagnosis, or admit you for no apparent reason?
One is 'too many' exceptions? And you're the one comparing The Church
to a hospital here. And Churches (as opposed to legitimate hospitals)
DO vary their diagnosis and treatments 180 degrees from each other.
In one, a homosexual might be killed or shunned, yet in another
church, that same person might become the Bishop.
I think there are very healthy people who call themselves Christians.
Thanks. But especially the healthy admit they are sinners, it's only the
unhealthy who are in denial.
That's Church Dogma. Most of the world doens't even Believe in
Biblical Sin.
Of course, the "hospital" (church) only makes money by diagnosing a
'disease' in need of that special healing that only THEY can provide.
If a medical hospital tried this, they'd be labeled a quack and have
their licenses taken away.
Most hospitals specialize and don't treat all diseases. The church
speciallizes in emotional ills, so they are not duplicating nor infringing
on any licensed profession. Also churches provide free service, but
naturally would appreciate a donation, which is hardly the case with any
other service, especially atheist ones.
I've never seen an atheist church or hospital in my life, so I'm just
going to call BS when I see it. Just because a hospital isn't named
after a Saint doesn't make it 'atheistic'.
I think you exhibit symptoms of terminal hubris, if not delusions of
grandeur, and are badly in need of treatment yourself. Please report to
the
nearest church quickly.
If hubris was a disease then many christians here would be on their
deathbeds.
Are you a licensed mental health care practitioner, who can make
qualified judgments like that?
You don't even know what hubris means, do you? (go ahead... look it
up, I'll wait)
It's amazing how you are apparently
surrounded by Christian sinners proudly strutting their sin, where I don't
hardly know any. I think you just make stuff up as you go along in order to
have someone answer your posts. LOL
No, the Christians around here Strut how HOLY they are (not how
sinful)... SOME even like to pretend to be Fathers, and Preachers, and
Doctors, and Pastors for that extra aire of holiness.
Pastor Frank
James, Seattle
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
26 Jan 2005 09:51:20 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:4mpcv0933trg9stp3rltdoe588s6dgjh3m@4ax.com...
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:55:07 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
The Christian church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners,
You must have missed it, but I just explained that the church is
a
hospital for sinners, who are looking for healing for their problems.
I think you exhibit symptoms of terminal hubris, if not delusions
of
grandeur, and are badly in need of treatment yourself. Please report
to the
nearest church quickly.
Pastor Frank
speaking of terminal hubris and delusions of grandeur, why is it you
call yourself a pastor when we all know you're not a real pastor?
Are you the leader of a church of liars and sinners?
You should report to the nearest church you're badly in need of
treatment yourself pastor fake.
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism -- The Ultimate Moral Copout |
25 Jan 2005 05:01:21 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:eubfu0ln9fctgosaq9sohhnhfvatbhau8d@4ax.com...
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 06:38:45 +0800 in alt.atheism, Pastor Frank
("Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:k85vt0tiogi26a8if431pkf4b3rit823hp@4ax.com...
It's the only morally responsible position. After all the believer
abdicates moral responsibility to their God, at least in theory
obeying the commands of their God, whether they understand them or not
and such moral decisions that are made by the individual are based on
the commandments of the deity in question and the a priori assumption
that those commands are in and of themselves moral. And that amounts
to the abdication of moral responsibility.
Is that what you told the judge why you didn't believe in the laws of
the country, but only in what you consider your "moral responsibility"
and
why you are posting this from jail now?
Good point, though I think you should put the point to Gandhi rather
than me. This is to say that sometimes it is moral to break the law
rather than to obey it, and I presume that in certain circumstances,
you'd agree. If - even under a restricted set of circumstances you do
agree - how do you decide whether that's the case?
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4,16) and morality is only the
consequence of believing in our God, for to cause people to love and care
is
the penultimate aim of our religions, if not the aim of most other
religions
also. See below
If "morality is only the consequence of believing in out God," how do
you explain the widely varying takes on morality expressed by
Christians over the centuries?
The Christian church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners, meaning
that it is filled with sinners seeking healing for their compulsions,
addictions, aggressions and fears.
Silly isn't it, imagine drug peddlars and robbers of old ladies going to
volunteer to be saved in a church!
Are you an atheist, believing that the church feeds their patients some
kind of magic pill called Christianity, which will transform everyone into
uniform Christians, all the spitting image of Christ, something like a
plastic Jesus factory? LOL
You could be right there Frank. All religions are like clubs, they need more
members as it adds to the overall power and influence.
It started when Stone Age man hunted for food in packs running behind their
leaders. Humans are programmed to be members of a pack with powerful leaders.
Just look around you. The problem is the majority of humans are not totally
dedicated to their leader. He is useful, but envy sometimes creeps and we
can't all be Kings and Prime Ministers.
But gods are different, they aren't human so we can totally grovel to them
without any loss of face and we can manipulate them also. The leaders soon
realised this so they took on religion for their own purposes.
Hope you learned something today Frank.
Bob
humanst Brit
Hong kong
Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the
terror of the unknown, and partly the wish to feel that you have a kind of
elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is
the basis of the whole thing - fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of
death.... Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has
lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts
can teach us, no longer to look round for imaginary supports, no longer to
invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to
make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the
Churches in all these centuries have made it.
Bertrand Russell (W.N.C.p22)]
Give us a break already, willya???
Pastor Frank
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness
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