"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in message

On 3 Apr 2004 13:12:42 -0800,

"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote

On 31 Mar 2004 06:58:48 -0800,

"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote

On 30 Mar 2004 03:58:00 -0800,

Xomicron <xomicron@wp.pl> wrote

Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights.

But NOT hence no rights. What you're basically admitting to here is
an inability to think of any basis for rights that doesn't involve
an invocation of God. Atheists are able to do this all the time.

what rights does a lion have? or an antelope?
don't fool yourself. rights do not exist in nature.

Where did I say there were rights in nature or that I would invoke
'nature' as a basis for rights?

if it does not exist in nature, then it's just some fake human
convention.

Like, say, automobiles? Fake? Tell me more, dopey.

yer an idjit.

Wow, great answer. I ask you again: are automobiles fake?

there are no property rights.

So try take over your neighbours house/apartment and see what happens.
Go on.

it happens all the time. it really depends if the state is able and
willing to act to enforce property laws. in Africa, there are no
guarantees.

But elsewhere it's different, right? Therefore implying that property
rights *do* in fact exist? I don't need to prove that they exist
everywhere in order to prove that they exist.

property rights are not absolute.

No-one said otherwise. All I said is: they exist. No rights are
absolute, in my opinion.

it is a mere human convention that

requires a lot of effort to sustain, therefore it is not a true right.

Define the term 'true right'.

when governments collapse, law and order is the first to go and along
with that all so-called "rights".
the only true rights you have is what *YOU* are able to do.
if you have to rely on some third party to provide security for you, you
are dependent on the infrastructure of government, which is how the
majority of urbanites live. that is the reason why modern man is so soft
and unhardy.

But where I live we have property rights in rural areas also.

Are they not also soft and unhardy?

the ability of the human race to survive a global disaster is not in the
hands of urbanites who have all been made dependent on the government and
the grocery store.

Rural dwellers are equally dependent on goverment. In fact, farmewrs
in my country are heavily dependent on government subsidies, something
'urbanites' live without. In any case, what has all this to do with
property rights?

that is not being a human being. that is being a maggot. maggots are
soft, white and defenceless.

I think if you make even a cursory examination of any humans life, you
will find that they are dependent to some degree on other people. This
is a healthy thing. It's mutually beneficial. Did you happen to invent
the computer you're sitting in front of yourself? I thought not.

humans should live like the early pioneers did. self sufficient.

Oh I see. An atavist. Why not start by dumping your PC?

what we have today is not progress. it is an easy coddled existence which
has rendered most of the human population unable to survive.

In fact it has increased our ability to survive. Look at
life-expectency rates alone. They are significantly increased as
compared to a hundred years ago.

***** economies of scale. have fewer people requiring fewer resources who
know how to support themselves. then this planet will become a pristine
natural environment again.

Sure. Throw away your PC.

bottom line is that property rights do not exist. just because you say
they do is meaningless.

I've already shown they do and you've already acknowledged that they
do.

I don't live in your cozy little first world country.
just take a look at Zimbabwe.
now your comment is?

I'm sorry you're house was stolen.

mine was not stolen. i don't live in Zimbabwe. I live in South Africa,
where the black masses have not gone on widespread looting sprees raping
and killing and robbing every white man they encounter.

Ah, so you *do* have property rights. Good.

Ian Smith should have slain every black Rhodesian to a man.

This is a murderous idea. But since your last post, I'm hardly
surprised.

Ever heard of people having to answer to *each other*?

people only respect might.

I know that. And people are able to exert might too. So not believing
in God does not mean that people run wild.

people run wild no matter what ideology they say they subscribe to.

Please give an example of a convent full of nuns of a crowd of
Buddhist monks or the people of Ireland 'running wild'.

the nature of man is the jungle where you take what you want if you are
able to and if you want to.

And if you're not able to? If other people stop you?

You learn to live with it. It's called civilisation.

All of the people who took part in these atrocitious were
religious believers.

it doesn't matter what people believe. that's just window dressing.

But you're whole thesis is that it *does* matter what people believe.

we are all animals.

Yes, humans are animals.

The primary flaw in your theory of
course is that atheists *want to* commit evil acts,

everyone does. are you so naive?

Everyone does not. Most people have no interest in killing or raping
or terrorising anyone.

i want to kill blacks. i want to eradicate them all.

Well this makes you a raving racist nutcase. You need help.

this universe could not exist without a Creator.

This isn't very persuasive, sorry. It's not a proof at all in fact, or
even an attempt. It's just a baseless assertion. Try harder.

***** you.

No, try *harder*. I didn't say 'Insult me instead'. I think your cork
is in a little too tight there.

Having a beginning is no guarantee of having an ending.

yeah it does.
a thing can only last forever if it was always there. impossible for us
to conceive because we inhabit a universe with TIME.
everything that starts must also end.

This is logically incorrect.

That may be so. But it is not implied by the fact that it had a
beginning. That is the point.

well you are wrong on this point too.
you have some elementary problems of understanding, which is probably why
you can't see why this universe could not exist without a Creator. it is
extremely obvious, except to those whose intuitions completely fail them.

Maybe I should become a racist nut like you. Then it'd all become
'obvious'.

then i'd run amok. no one would be safe from me. i would rape and
pillage this planet over and over again. i spend my whole day killing
droves of people.

Why on Earth would you want to do such terrible things? You need to
have your head examined.

I'm a man. That's what men do. We rape, pillage and kill.
Or have you no understanding of human history?

I have more understanding of history than you have of civilisation.

Do you believe in the nice sanitised PC version of humanity that we're
all basically good, clean and fresh inside?

No I don't. But I do think it perfectly obvious that people can change
their behaviour and behave in a civilisedfashion the vast majority of
the time. You lonly have to look at any Western country to see this.

Sir Francis Drake, nice "civilised" British "gentleman" sailed the Seven
Seas as a pirate.
American soldiers in Iraq are not there to hug people. They're there to
KILL.

then they're done a pathetically bad job. If they wanted to kill,
they'd have killed everyone there by now.

You need to stop believing all that liberal PC crap that's out there.

I don't beleive liberal PC crap at all. I think it's junk. I'm
approaching this from a completely different angle.

Wars don't happen over and over again because people are basically good
at heart. They happen because we're merciless killers and rogues. The
lot of us.

No, because we sometimes have major disagreements. Wars are more
complicated than you seem to think.

Embrace yer evil. The one thing you'll find in every common man (not your
snooty academic liberal types)

Did you by any chance get dumped out of university at some stage?
You're very bitter.

is the fervent desire to kill undesirable
elements of society. The common man does not believe in tolerating *****.
He (and she) is completely 100% intolerant of *****. When they encounter
*****, they do the most efficient thing. They kill the piece of *****
(unless the law forbids them to do so on pain of severe punishment).
That is their gut instinct.

So why is the law there, huh?

i'd cull all the useless pieces of garbage. i'd hang out in bad
neighbourhoods and just kill criminals all day long. i'd kill 100 000
people a day.

Why?

Because vermin need to be extinguished and rapidly.

So what's stopping you, Rambo?

it is a fact that no atheist can account for the cause that brought
this universe.

This also has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is defined as a lack
of belief in God.

i find your lack of belief disturbing.

Seeing as your religious belief is the only thing standing between you
and a life of mass murder (as you've just admitted), this is some
crack indeed.

My religious belief tells me to eradicate evildoers. The state of South
Africa refuses to permit me a hunting license to go kill kaffirs. I
haven't even bothered to apply, because I already know their response.

And why would they respond like that? Even a predominently white
country like, say, the UK wouldn't give you such a permit.

Even the Apartheid government didn't issue such licenses, which is why
they no longer exist. They killed themselves by not allowing the common
man to take the law into his own hands and annihilate all the vermin in
this country.

Hysterical crap.

given the complexity and low entropy of the universe it is very
plausible that this universe was created by an intelligent entity
known as God.

No it is not at all 'plausible'. It is a huge leap of faith. An
invention. Please provide a logical step-by-step argument for what
you've just asserted.

you're too stupid to follow.

So why did your buddy God go and make me this way?

People like me need targets to shoot at. People like you are the
designated targets. Please stand still while I shoot at you. Thanks.

Yeah fine, do you worst. Unless....you're all talk?