| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Maxie P. Diddly" |
| Date: |
19 Nov 2003 02:56:58 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Atheists say they're GREAT without religion |
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpf27m$1nc8ba$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
Well, my pocket watch is neither digital nor atomic. And without the
mechanics of clocks, you wouldn't have either digitalization or
atomic
energy.
Changing your claim so fast? You claimed Christians were responsible
for inventing mechanical clocks. I refuted your claim by showing: a)
nobody knows who really invented mechanical clocks, and b) mechanical
water clocks have been around for quite some time, predating
Christianity in fact. Please go back and read what you originally
wrote before you contradict yourself for a third time.
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| User: "the cutest atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're GREAT without religion |
20 Nov 2003 04:21:00 AM |
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"Maxie P. Diddly" <tothemaxx@no.email.please.com> wrote in message
news:vrnmannd8eed06@corp.supernews.com...
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpf27m$1nc8ba$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
Well, my pocket watch is neither digital nor atomic. And without the
mechanics of clocks, you wouldn't have either digitalization or
atomic
energy.
Changing your claim so fast? You claimed Christians were responsible
for inventing mechanical clocks. I refuted your claim by showing: a)
nobody knows who really invented mechanical clocks, and b) mechanical
water clocks have been around for quite some time, predating
Christianity in fact. Please go back and read what you originally
wrote before you contradict yourself for a third time.
I believe the ancient chinese invented mechanical clocks long (1000+ years?)
before christ, and the romans had water clocks from at least the
mid-republic (350BCE). who knows how long sundials were around....they had
them in ancient egypt and ancient britain, I'm sure other cultures had em
too...
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| User: "Monday Mourning" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
20 Nov 2003 08:06:43 PM |
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"the cutest atheist" <herdofnerd(remove)@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<gA0vb.18937$aT.3575@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
"Maxie P. Diddly" <tothemaxx@no.email.please.com> wrote in message
news:vrnmannd8eed06@corp.supernews.com...
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpf27m$1nc8ba$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
Well, my pocket watch is neither digital nor atomic. And without the
mechanics of clocks, you wouldn't have either digitalization or
atomic
energy.
Changing your claim so fast? You claimed Christians were responsible
for inventing mechanical clocks. I refuted your claim by showing: a)
nobody knows who really invented mechanical clocks, and b) mechanical
water clocks have been around for quite some time, predating
Christianity in fact. Please go back and read what you originally
wrote before you contradict yourself for a third time.
I believe the ancient chinese invented mechanical clocks long (1000+ years?)
before christ, and the romans had water clocks from at least the
mid-republic (350BCE). who knows how long sundials were around....they had
them in ancient egypt and ancient britain, I'm sure other cultures had em
too...
Oh, yes. Christians have no claim on the invention of mechanical
clocks, but they like to pretend that they do.
.
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| User: "the cutest atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
20 Nov 2003 08:43:22 PM |
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"Monday Mourning" <mondaze_mourning@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:afdc7c71.0311201806.71a13045@posting.google.com...
"the cutest atheist" <herdofnerd(remove)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<gA0vb.18937$aT.3575@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
"Maxie P. Diddly" <tothemaxx@no.email.please.com> wrote in message
news:vrnmannd8eed06@corp.supernews.com...
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpf27m$1nc8ba$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
Well, my pocket watch is neither digital nor atomic. And without the
mechanics of clocks, you wouldn't have either digitalization or
atomic
energy.
Changing your claim so fast? You claimed Christians were responsible
for inventing mechanical clocks. I refuted your claim by showing: a)
nobody knows who really invented mechanical clocks, and b) mechanical
water clocks have been around for quite some time, predating
Christianity in fact. Please go back and read what you originally
wrote before you contradict yourself for a third time.
I believe the ancient chinese invented mechanical clocks long (1000+
years?)
before christ, and the romans had water clocks from at least the
mid-republic (350BCE). who knows how long sundials were around....they
had
them in ancient egypt and ancient britain, I'm sure other cultures had
em
too...
Oh, yes. Christians have no claim on the invention of mechanical
clocks, but they like to pretend that they do.
they like to pretend a lot of things. that's what makes them christian
-Cutest, not usually such an obnoxious atheist, really.....
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
20 Nov 2003 09:55:40 PM |
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"the cutest atheist"
they like to pretend a lot of things. that's what makes them christian
This is a logical fallacy. A broad brish generalization and really just a
way to show your displeasure with Christianity. it however is not an
argument agains Christian inventiveness and how it made your culture viable.
-Cutest, not usually such an obnoxious atheist, really.....
You could have fooled me on both counts.
Saint
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| User: "the cutest atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
21 Nov 2003 01:35:19 AM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpk2b6$1nv2ol$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
"the cutest atheist"
they like to pretend a lot of things. that's what makes them christian
This is a logical fallacy.
a fucking joke. I wasn't serious, retard.
A broad brish generalization and really just a
way to show your displeasure with Christianity. it however is not an
argument agains Christian inventiveness and how it made your culture
viable.
being christian has not been shown to have been a necessary prerequisite to
inventiveness....see every civilization that wasn't christian, for numerous
examples
-Cutest, not usually such an obnoxious atheist, really.....
You could have fooled me on both counts.
well colour me surprised
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| User: "jwk" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
21 Nov 2003 07:29:25 AM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bpk2b6$1nv2ol$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"the cutest atheist"
they like to pretend a lot of things. that's what makes them christian
This is a logical fallacy. A broad brish generalization and really just a
way to show your displeasure with Christianity. it however is not an
argument agains Christian inventiveness
That is an interesting term - "Christian inventiveness". Are you
claiming that being Christian somehow gives a person advanced
technical skills? Certainly "Christian" is not a racial or national
designation, so are you implying that a religious belief makes someone
more inventive?
jwk
<this ought to be good>
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
21 Nov 2003 12:29:48 PM |
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"jwk" <jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com> wrote in message
they like to pretend a lot of things. that's what makes them christian
This is a logical fallacy. A broad brush generalization and really just
a
way to show your displeasure with Christianity. it however is not an
argument against Christian inventiveness
That is an interesting term - "Christian inventiveness". Are you
claiming that being Christian somehow gives a person advanced
technical skills?
Are you claiming, as P. Diddy did, that NO CHRISTIAN ever had advanced
technical or scientific skills?
Again, St. Albans Logic: (please contest) "A person's displeasure with
another person's faith, does not preclude or cancel the inventiveness and/or
historic contribution of any other person of that particular faith."
I.e. Just because a person is a Muslim, does not mean the Muslims did not
invent algebra.
Just because a person is a Jew, does not mean that the Jews did not develop
and apply the concept of Monotheism throughout history for over four
thousand years to the present day.
Just because a personis a Christian,does not mean Christianity did not
influence Western European culture.
Certainly "Christian" is not a racial or national
designation, so are you implying that a religious belief makes someone
more inventive?
I am not implying anything. I am asserting historical facts which cannot be
disputed. Christianity arose. Christians invented things for the necessities
of daily life and these things have currently evolved into their present
forms. Diddy's problem is he can't accept Christians. To him they are all
insane, devious, mad as hatters or sick.
I dare-say his Mother's Mother and Father's Father were most likely either
Jews (from which Christianity arose) or Christians. There are some
Christians in his background. Without them, he would not exist. That is my
contention. He just didn't get the joke.
Any other "implications" you see, you are making up.
Saint 0;-)
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| User: "the cutest atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
21 Nov 2003 06:56:33 PM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bplli4$1q2d2k$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
"jwk" <jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com> wrote in message
they like to pretend a lot of things. that's what makes them
christian
This is a logical fallacy. A broad brush generalization and really
just
a
way to show your displeasure with Christianity. it however is not an
argument against Christian inventiveness
That is an interesting term - "Christian inventiveness". Are you
claiming that being Christian somehow gives a person advanced
technical skills?
Are you claiming, as P. Diddy did, that NO CHRISTIAN ever had advanced
technical or scientific skills?
you're the only loon claiming anything around here. we are just refuting
your claims with EVIDENCE. and no one on this or the related threads has
said any such thing.
you're gonna have to fulfil your persecution complex elsewhere
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| User: "3D Master" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
21 Nov 2003 06:01:55 PM |
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angelicusrex wrote:
"jwk" <jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com> wrote in message
they like to pretend a lot of things. that's what makes them christian
This is a logical fallacy. A broad brush generalization and really just
a
way to show your displeasure with Christianity. it however is not an
argument against Christian inventiveness
That is an interesting term - "Christian inventiveness". Are you
claiming that being Christian somehow gives a person advanced
technical skills?
Are you claiming, as P. Diddy did, that NO CHRISTIAN ever had advanced
technical or scientific skills?
But if a christian had technical skills, that doesn't make it a
'Christian technical skill', it makes it a 'human technical skill' and
that human happens to be a christian. The technical skill, the
inventiveness is not Christian, a skill cannot and will not ever be
religious, neither can any skill ever be invented because a person is of
a certain religion, and if one is not that religion that person could
never have invented it. Religion is product of human
inventiveness/fantasy, not the other way around.
Again, St. Albans Logic: (please contest) "A person's displeasure with
another person's faith, does not preclude or cancel the inventiveness and/or
historic contribution of any other person of that particular faith."
I.e. Just because a person is a Muslim, does not mean the Muslims did not
invent algebra.
Does not make it Muslim inventiveness.
Just because a person is a Jew, does not mean that the Jews did not develop
and apply the concept of Monotheism throughout history for over four
thousand years to the present day.
Does not make it Jewish inventiveness.
Just because a personis a Christian,does not mean Christianity did not
influence Western European culture.
Does not make it Christian inventiveness.
For something to be 'Christian inventiveness' it would be inventiveness
that has the attribute that it is christian. It would require to be a
kind of inventiveness that somebody not Christian could never have come
up with, or an invention that could never have come into existence
without christianity. What it is is inventiveness of people, and those
people happen to be Christians. If those very same people had been
muslims they would have invented the same thing. Inventiveness is a
human trait, it has the attribut that it is human, inventiveness however
has nothing to do with whatever religion someone adheres to.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
21 Nov 2003 10:39:21 PM |
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"3D Master" <3d.master@chello.nl> wrote in message
But if a christian had technical skills, that doesn't make it a
'Christian technical skill',
No one said it did.
it makes it a 'human technical skill' and
that human happens to be a christian. The technical skill, the
inventiveness is not Christian, a skill cannot and will not ever be
religious,
The skill holder can be religious and be fully motivated to be ingeneous or
inventive by his or her religious beliefs and or philosophy.
neither can any skill ever be invented because a person is of
a certain religion,
Mechanics is a skill, design is a skill, but to use it for a clock is the
primary drive. The clock is to be used for relgious functions. Did the
shamans of our ancestors paint mammoths on cave walls because they were
human artists? Yes. But for what deeper reason? Because they were making
something happen, they were bringing them to life, and under their power.
Man's inventiveness and creativity is inexorably entwined with his deep
philosophical beliefs.
and if one is not that religion that person could
never have invented it. Religion is product of human
inventiveness/fantasy, not the other way around.
Ah logic...perhaps you missed my post. It read that you cannot say
Christians were not inventive just because they were Christians.
Now, as for the details, Christians invented the mechanical clock
(progenitor of all those in use today in science and technology) for one
reason alone, so they could toll vespers, prayer time, meal time, and etc.
in monasteries. This means the inventors were being inventive because of
their religion. If this had not happened, the clock may not have come into
use in the secular world and the age of Discovery may have been stalled. Had
this happened certain people would not have met certain other people and
gotten together at specific times. My point remains that Maxie P. Diddy
would simply not exist if certain Christians using their inventiveness for
the Christian World and religion had not done precisely what they did do.
I.e. Just because a person is a Muslim, does not mean the Muslims did
not
invent algebra.
Does not make it Muslim inventiveness.
Then who's inventiveness is it? Human? Then why is everyone yelling about
what the Chinese invented or the Jews or Romans or whomever? Shouldn't we
just be saying that HUMANS invented things, and that ergo Christians are
humans and should be recognized as such?
The fallacy being bandied around this board is that Christian's, (because
some of them did bad things, or because more unreasonably, some people don't
LIKE Christianity), contribution to our history and society should be
forgotten and nullified.
You are in effect helping me make a valid point. ALL humans should be
understood to be inventive and contributing to the history of the world. Not
just the ones you or I happen to agree with. I can include Chinese, Muslims
and Atheists. But others refuse to admit Christians! This is simply bigotry.
However the logic I presented remains sound. One cannot say the Muslims
didn't invent anything worthwhile simply because they were Muslims.
Actually it was the Babylonians who first made algabreic formulae. But the
Muslims developed it, for Islamic reasons. Christians did not catch on to it
for some time. When they did, they applauded the Muslims and accepted the
ideas.
If the reason for an inventive spurt is a philisophical one, then the two
things are decidedly hard to disentangle.
Just because a person is a Jew, does not mean that the Jews did not
develop
and apply the concept of Monotheism throughout history for over four
thousand years to the present day.
Does not make it Jewish inventiveness.
Then who's inventiveness is it? Are you saying Humans invented monotheism?
How novel! However we have to be a little more conscious of labeling the
contestants in our little game. The Jews developed the concept of
Monotheism to the nth degree, for purely Jewish reasons. One cannot now
separate the two. One can only say: Humans are inventive. Jews invented
monotheism as we understand it today, ergo, Jews are human. Since no one
else invented and developed monotheism as we know it today we label it
correctly as "Judeo."
Saint 0;-)
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| User: "zayton" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
22 Nov 2003 11:06:31 AM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpmp9q$1qfq69$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
Now, as for the details, Christians invented the mechanical clock
(progenitor of all those in use today in science and technology) for one
reason alone, so they could toll vespers, prayer time, meal time, and etc.
in monasteries. This means the inventors were being inventive because of
their religion.
I seem to have missed your documentation of this. Every source I have found
says that the origin of the mechanical clock is unknown.
Joe
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
22 Nov 2003 05:25:38 PM |
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On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:06:31 -0600, "zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpmp9q$1qfq69$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
Now, as for the details, Christians invented the mechanical clock
(progenitor of all those in use today in science and technology) for one
reason alone, so they could toll vespers, prayer time, meal time, and etc.
in monasteries. This means the inventors were being inventive because of
their religion.
I seem to have missed your documentation of this. Every source I have found
says that the origin of the mechanical clock is unknown.
Joe
Sorry to but in, but I thought you might be interested in this
extract:
"Mechanical clocks were first used in China, more for astronomical and
astrological purposes rather then for telling the time. About 725 AD,
a Chinese engineer, Liang Ling-Tsan invented the mechanical
escapement, which is a key device in all mechanical clocks. One of the
most elaborate clock towers was built by Su Sung and his associates in
1088 A.D. It is also interested (sic) to note that the developments in
Chinese clock building were influenced by Muslims. During the period
beginning with the Mongol conquest of China by Kublai Khan, the
Chinese Mongol rulers employed Muslim astronomers. These Muslim
astronomers developed improved astronomical instruments."
© "Science and Technology in World History: An Introduction"
McClellan & Dorn, 1999, Johns Hopkins University Press
View this book on Amazon:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K1FB51D96
I was referred to this source via this web-site:
http://www.mastep.sjsu.edu/history_of_tech/middle.htm
I'm not sure what religion Liang Ling-Tsan would have claimed, but I
the chances of it being "Christian" are vanishingly small.
Even the so-called christian mechanical clocks, such as that at Milan
in 1335, derived from clocks made in Islamic Spain some years earlier.
So, while Christians may have been adopters of mechanical clocks for
religious purposes, it is clear to me that they did not invent them.
I hope this proves of interest to you.
.
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| User: "the cutest atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
23 Nov 2003 04:36:55 AM |
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"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:tvrvrv43uui69rf1i7bae7tfi8tcro6ev3@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:06:31 -0600, "zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpmp9q$1qfq69$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
Now, as for the details, Christians invented the mechanical clock
(progenitor of all those in use today in science and technology) for
one
reason alone, so they could toll vespers, prayer time, meal time, and
etc.
in monasteries. This means the inventors were being inventive because
of
their religion.
I seem to have missed your documentation of this. Every source I have
found
says that the origin of the mechanical clock is unknown.
Joe
Sorry to but in, but I thought you might be interested in this
extract:
"Mechanical clocks were first used in China, more for astronomical and
astrological purposes rather then for telling the time. About 725 AD,
a Chinese engineer, Liang Ling-Tsan invented the mechanical
escapement, which is a key device in all mechanical clocks. One of the
most elaborate clock towers was built by Su Sung and his associates in
1088 A.D. It is also interested (sic) to note that the developments in
Chinese clock building were influenced by Muslims. During the period
beginning with the Mongol conquest of China by Kublai Khan, the
Chinese Mongol rulers employed Muslim astronomers. These Muslim
astronomers developed improved astronomical instruments."
© "Science and Technology in World History: An Introduction"
McClellan & Dorn, 1999, Johns Hopkins University Press
View this book on Amazon:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K1FB51D96
I was referred to this source via this web-site:
http://www.mastep.sjsu.edu/history_of_tech/middle.htm
I'm not sure what religion Liang Ling-Tsan would have claimed, but I
the chances of it being "Christian" are vanishingly small.
Even the so-called christian mechanical clocks, such as that at Milan
in 1335, derived from clocks made in Islamic Spain some years earlier.
So, while Christians may have been adopters of mechanical clocks for
religious purposes, it is clear to me that they did not invent them.
I hope this proves of interest to you.
thankyou, you just backed up everything I had previously explained (without
references, however) to the moron... it seems it likes it's fantasies better
.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
21 Nov 2003 01:21:58 AM |
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On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:55:40 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
"the cutest atheist"
they like to pretend a lot of things. that's what makes them christian
This is a logical fallacy. A broad brish generalization and really just a
way to show your displeasure with Christianity. it however is not an
argument agains Christian inventiveness and how it made your culture viable.
I always stand surprised at the amount of nonsense xtians can spout,
without realising it.
AFTER the middle ages, duing the Rennaissance and the Enlightment
period many inventions were done. By christians, fully agree here. But
not to promote their fate, or because of their fate. Rather in spite
of it.
All xtian churches fought those inventions tooth and nail. Some still
do.
The middle ages is your period: when the church ruled absolutely and
science simply did not exist.
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
20 Nov 2003 09:39:37 PM |
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The mechanical clock, as we know it today and as it evolved was invented by
Christians for Monks so they could know when to toll the vespers, etc. Other
clocks were invented previously, however they did not work well enough or
accurately enough to be useful in secular business, which was built AROUND
the church prayer times and holy days of the church calendar. The word
Holiday means Holy Day. In order to have these holidays or time off from
work, one had to know when they were. This meant precise time and ever more
precise calendars and clocks had to be invented.
Christians invented the mechanical clock as we know it today with the face,
numbers, zodiac signs, phases of the moon and hour, minute and second
hands.Other Christians invented the chronographic gauges, including those
used for barometric pressure, wattage, etc. Which all came from the
mechanical clocks used first by monasteries.
If you can find a clock in use today by any civilized culture that is not
based on this model, then please bring us the details.
Saint
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| User: "Mr. Maxie P. Diddly" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
20 Nov 2003 09:50:27 PM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpk1d4$1obeo1$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
The mechanical clock, as we know it today and as it evolved was
invented by
Christians for Monks
No, it wasn't.
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| User: "JackNunn" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
21 Nov 2003 12:29:44 PM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bpk1d4$1obeo1$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
The mechanical clock, as we know it today and as it evolved was invented by
Christians for Monks so they could know when to toll the vespers, etc. Other
clocks were invented previously, however they did not work well enough or
accurately enough to be useful in secular business, which was built AROUND
the church prayer times and holy days of the church calendar. The word
Holiday means Holy Day. In order to have these holidays or time off from
work, one had to know when they were. This meant precise time and ever more
precise calendars and clocks had to be invented.
Christians invented the mechanical clock as we know it today with the face,
numbers, zodiac signs, phases of the moon and hour, minute and second
hands.Other Christians invented the chronographic gauges, including those
used for barometric pressure, wattage, etc. Which all came from the
mechanical clocks used first by monasteries.
If you can find a clock in use today by any civilized culture that is not
based on this model, then please bring us the details.
Saint
Have you never seen an electronic digital clock?
Do you really claim that a clock with no moving parts
is biased on a mechanical clock? The only resemblance
is that they both tell time.
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
21 Nov 2003 01:17:07 PM |
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Get a grip. You would not have a digital clock without first having had an
accurate mechanical model.
Saint 0;-)
"JackNunn" <joat_mon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a542dc.0311211029.66d31dc6@posting.google.com...
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:<bpk1d4$1obeo1$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
The mechanical clock, as we know it today and as it evolved was invented
by
Christians for Monks so they could know when to toll the vespers, etc.
Other
clocks were invented previously, however they did not work well enough
or
accurately enough to be useful in secular business, which was built
AROUND
the church prayer times and holy days of the church calendar. The word
Holiday means Holy Day. In order to have these holidays or time off from
work, one had to know when they were. This meant precise time and ever
more
precise calendars and clocks had to be invented.
Christians invented the mechanical clock as we know it today with the
face,
numbers, zodiac signs, phases of the moon and hour, minute and second
hands.Other Christians invented the chronographic gauges, including
those
used for barometric pressure, wattage, etc. Which all came from the
mechanical clocks used first by monasteries.
If you can find a clock in use today by any civilized culture that is
not
based on this model, then please bring us the details.
Saint
Have you never seen an electronic digital clock?
Do you really claim that a clock with no moving parts
is biased on a mechanical clock? The only resemblance
is that they both tell time.
.
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| User: "JackNunn" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
24 Nov 2003 08:55:56 AM |
|
|
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bploar$1prtjn$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
Get a grip. You would not have a digital clock without first having had an
accurate mechanical model.
Really? What part of digital clocks requires
anything from mechanical clocks? There is not
a single part or concept used in digital clocks
that came from mechanical clocks. No gears,
springs, pendulums, not even hands or a face.
Digital clocks are biased on an entirely different
technology and owe nothing to mechanical
clocks. The fact that both measure time is irrelevant
unless you want to claim that the entire concept
of measuring time was invented by mechanical
clock makers. If you believe this try looking
up "sundial" in the encyclopedia.
Just because mechanical clocks came first
in no way proves that digital clocks are
"biased on" mechanical clocks. That's like
claiming that jet engines are "biased on"
steam engines since steam engines came first.
In fact there is a closer relationship
between steam and jet engines than there is
between mechanical and digital clocks.
Saint 0;-)
"JackNunn" <joat_mon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a542dc.0311211029.66d31dc6@posting.google.com...
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:<bpk1d4$1obeo1$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
The mechanical clock, as we know it today and as it evolved was invented
by
Christians for Monks so they could know when to toll the vespers, etc.
Other
clocks were invented previously, however they did not work well enough
or
accurately enough to be useful in secular business, which was built
AROUND
the church prayer times and holy days of the church calendar. The word
Holiday means Holy Day. In order to have these holidays or time off from
work, one had to know when they were. This meant precise time and ever
more
precise calendars and clocks had to be invented.
Christians invented the mechanical clock as we know it today with the
face,
numbers, zodiac signs, phases of the moon and hour, minute and second
hands.Other Christians invented the chronographic gauges, including
those
used for barometric pressure, wattage, etc. Which all came from the
mechanical clocks used first by monasteries.
If you can find a clock in use today by any civilized culture that is
not
based on this model, then please bring us the details.
Saint
Have you never seen an electronic digital clock?
Do you really claim that a clock with no moving parts
is biased on a mechanical clock? The only resemblance
is that they both tell time.
.
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
24 Nov 2003 11:20:07 AM |
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Don't be a fool, digital clocks came well after mechanical clocks. The
mechanics was made electronic and digitized. But guess what, before anyone
had a digital clock they had to use a mechanical one to tell what time it
was! The mechanical clock, HOW it works, not the way it looks, was
electronically patterned after mechanical clocks. Or are you saying that
somehow digital science and technology simply came out of the thin blue air?
Measuring time by seconds, minutes and hours did in fact come from
mechanical clock makers. The first clocks only chimed, they did not have
faces or numerals, etc. Later those were invented BY CHRISTIAN EUROPEANS to
mark off the seconds and hours, days, weeks, months, years, etc. Try to
understand evolution, would you? By the way, mechanical clocks are still in
use. And my contention was that they were invented by Christians for use in
the church. That is a fact. And the rest of this idiocy about electronics or
jet engines is moot. Especially since most of their inventors were also
Christians.
All engines are based on steam engines. You always have to mix fuel with
air, burn it and get a release of energy. That's the concept. Next you'll be
saying people didn't evolve! Do you realize how close you are getting to
fundamentalist Christianity here???
Saint
"JackNunn" <joat_mon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a542dc.0311240655.10118f24@posting.google.com...
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:<bploar$1prtjn$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
Get a grip. You would not have a digital clock without first having had
an
accurate mechanical model.
Really? What part of digital clocks requires
anything from mechanical clocks? There is not
a single part or concept used in digital clocks
that came from mechanical clocks. No gears,
springs, pendulums, not even hands or a face.
Digital clocks are biased on an entirely different
technology and owe nothing to mechanical
clocks. The fact that both measure time is irrelevant
unless you want to claim that the entire concept
of measuring time was invented by mechanical
clock makers. If you believe this try looking
up "sundial" in the encyclopedia.
Just because mechanical clocks came first
in no way proves that digital clocks are
"biased on" mechanical clocks. That's like
claiming that jet engines are "biased on"
steam engines since steam engines came first.
In fact there is a closer relationship
between steam and jet engines than there is
between mechanical and digital clocks.
Saint 0;-)
"JackNunn" <joat_mon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a542dc.0311211029.66d31dc6@posting.google.com...
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:<bpk1d4$1obeo1$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
The mechanical clock, as we know it today and as it evolved was
invented
by
Christians for Monks so they could know when to toll the vespers,
etc.
Other
clocks were invented previously, however they did not work well
enough
or
accurately enough to be useful in secular business, which was built
AROUND
the church prayer times and holy days of the church calendar. The
word
Holiday means Holy Day. In order to have these holidays or time off
from
work, one had to know when they were. This meant precise time and
ever
more
precise calendars and clocks had to be invented.
Christians invented the mechanical clock as we know it today with
the
face,
numbers, zodiac signs, phases of the moon and hour, minute and
second
hands.Other Christians invented the chronographic gauges, including
those
used for barometric pressure, wattage, etc. Which all came from the
mechanical clocks used first by monasteries.
If you can find a clock in use today by any civilized culture that
is
not
based on this model, then please bring us the details.
Saint
Have you never seen an electronic digital clock?
Do you really claim that a clock with no moving parts
is biased on a mechanical clock? The only resemblance
is that they both tell time.
.
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| User: "zayton" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
24 Nov 2003 09:42:13 PM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bptejv$1t76rf$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
Don't be a fool, digital clocks came well after mechanical clocks.
True. But not particularly significant.
The
mechanics was made electronic and digitized.
*****.
But guess what, before anyone
had a digital clock they had to use a mechanical one to tell what time it
was!
Again, True but insignificant. Before thy had medhanical clocks they looked
at sundials. and, as you've pointed out, this doesn't mean that mechanical
clocks were made out of sundials. Neither were electronic clocks made out of
mechanical clocks.
The mechanical clock, HOW it works, not the way it looks, was
electronically patterned after mechanical clocks.
Even if you had said that right, it would still have been wrong.
Or are you saying that
somehow digital science and technology simply came out of the thin blue
air?
It is no more dependant on the mechanical clocks which came before it than
the mechanical clocks were dependant on the sundials that came before them.
Measuring time by seconds, minutes and hours did in fact come from
mechanical clock makers.
No. this was all done by water clocks. Mechanical clocks were simplier,
cheaper, andperhaps, slightly more accurate.; but there are ancient clocks
with accuracies measured in the seconds.
The first clocks only chimed, they did not have
faces or numerals, etc. Later those were invented BY CHRISTIAN EUROPEANS
to
mark off the seconds and hours, days, weeks, months, years, etc. Try to
understand evolution, would you?
Sundials had faces, and most numerals. Your version of history is that these
were forgotten by later clock makers and the idea had to be invented again
by Christian clockmakers? And you want US to try to understnd evolution?
By the way, mechanical clocks are still in
use.
So are sundials.
And my contention was that they were invented by Christians for use in
the church. That is a fact.
No. That is your contention. No one knows who invented the mechanical clock.
The earliest records we have of the USE of such clocks is in Christian
writings, but these writings do not indicate where or when the mechanisms
were first invented.
Joe
.
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| User: "ArWeGod" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
25 Nov 2003 01:38:40 AM |
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"zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:saAwb.6283$a7.5784@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bptejv$1t76rf$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
Don't be a fool, digital clocks came well after mechanical clocks.
....snip...
By the way, mechanical clocks are still in
use.
So are sundials.
And my contention was that they were invented by Christians for use in
the church. That is a fact.
No. That is your contention. No one knows who invented the mechanical
clock.
The earliest records we have of the USE of such clocks is in Christian
writings, but these writings do not indicate where or when the mechanisms
were first invented.
The most perfect mechanical clock was created by design for shipping. In
order to replace the sexton. The only way to circumnavigate the globe safely
was to have a very accurate clock. There was a prize.
It had nothing to do with your church.
-ArWeGod
.
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| User: "Obadiah Freeman" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
25 Nov 2003 01:51:24 AM |
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"ArWeGod" <ArWeGod?@sbcglobal.net> writes:
"zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:saAwb.6283$a7.5784@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
No. That is your contention. No one knows who invented the
mechanical clock. The earliest records we have of the USE of such
clocks is in Christian writings, but these writings do not
indicate where or when the mechanisms were first invented.
The most perfect mechanical clock was created by design for
shipping. In order to replace the sexton. The only way to
circumnavigate the globe safely was to have a very accurate
clock. There was a prize.
It had nothing to do with your church.
Huh? Did you know that a "sexton" is an employee or officer of a
church who is responsible for the care and upkeep of church property
and sometimes for ringing bells and digging graves?
How can replacing a sexton have nothing to do with a church???
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sexton
.
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| User: "Anatid Bonecki" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
25 Nov 2003 12:12:53 PM |
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"zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:saAwb.6283$a7.5784@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
No. That is your contention. No one knows who invented the
mechanical clock. The earliest records we have of the USE of such
clocks is in Christian writings, but these writings do not
indicate where or when the mechanisms were first invented.
The most perfect mechanical clock was created by design for
shipping.
First of all, you are dead wrong. The first mechanical clocks were for
Christian use as I have described. Later they needed a timepiece to
use for finding longitudes, not just for shipping, but for anyone out
on the open sea to find directions. This perfect mechanical clock, as
you call it, was still based on early designs of watches and clocks.
And guess what the man who invented the "perfect clock" was a
Christian. And the nation Great Britain was a Christian Nation. So you
lose on all counts. All you are saying is that Christians evolved
their time pieces to become even more useful and precise.
In order to replace the sexton. The only way to
circumnavigate the globe safely was to have a very accurate
clock. There was a prize.
The Sextant has nothing whatsoever to do with the timepiece used in
determining longitude. Longitude is determined by time at sea in
relation to a set time on land (Greenwitch Mean Time). I'm the one who
told you people to read the book "Longitude" so I know all about the
prize. But I will give you a booby prize.
The sextant is used for describing a ships position by latitude by
using the position of the sun, moon and stars. It is not a timepiece
or a clock. I am beginning to wonder if any of you people have ever
been to school.
It had nothing to do with your church.
You're right, the sextant and the clock have nothing to do with "my
church." I have no church. I am not a Christian.
This eternally baffling atheist logic you people use is absurdist. If
a lawyer defends a man accused of murder, does this make the lawyer a
murderer by proxy???
I am defending Christinity for it's place in world history. Like it or
not, it did have an AWESOME effects on your lives, including the
inventions of the clock, computer and other things you seem to take
for granted. Like if the clock hadn't been invented, a ship's captain
might not have known where he was in longitude and miss a port of
call, which means maybe your granddaddy wouldn't have met your
grandmommy and poof, you wouldn't exist!
Huh? Did you know that a "sexton" is an employee or officer of a
church who is responsible for the care and upkeep of church property
and sometimes for ringing bells and digging graves?
How can replacing a sexton have nothing to do with a church???
Goes to show you how ill-educated and prepared for real life these
kids are...
Saint Anatid of Bonecki
.
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| User: "zayton" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
25 Nov 2003 01:00:32 PM |
|
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"Anatid Bonecki" <Anatid@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:ac57a0d7.0311251012.4010f91d@posting.google.com...
"zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:saAwb.6283$a7.5784@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
No. That is your contention. No one knows who invented the
mechanical clock. The earliest records we have of the USE of such
clocks is in Christian writings, but these writings do not
indicate where or when the mechanisms were first invented.
The most perfect mechanical clock was created by design for
shipping.
First of all, you are dead wrong. The first mechanical clocks were for
Christian use as I have described.
Described as in making an unsubstantiated claim.
Later they needed a timepiece to
use for finding longitudes, not just for shipping, but for anyone out
on the open sea to find directions.
This had been sought after for as long as human beings have been navagating
the seas. In no sense is it a need which came along "later on".
This perfect mechanical clock, as
you call it, was still based on early designs of watches and clocks.
And guess what the man who invented the "perfect clock" was a
Christian. And the nation Great Britain was a Christian Nation. So you
lose on all counts. All you are saying is that Christians evolved
their time pieces to become even more useful and precise.
I'm still waiting for your documentation that someone knows when and where
the first mechanical clock was invented.
In order to replace the sexton. The only way to
circumnavigate the globe safely was to have a very accurate
clock. There was a prize.
The Sextant has nothing whatsoever to do with the timepiece used in
determining longitude. Longitude is determined by time at sea in
relation to a set time on land (Greenwitch Mean Time). I'm the one who
told you people to read the book "Longitude" so I know all about the
prize. But I will give you a booby prize.
The sextant is used for describing a ships position by latitude by
using the position of the sun, moon and stars. It is not a timepiece
or a clock.
It is used in conjunction with a timepeice to determine longitude. There are
measurements you can make to determine esxact latitude without knowing the
exact time; but longitude is determined by comparing readings made where you
are to a table of readings made at that exact time of day from a known,
fixed location. the difference in the angle of the sextant reading you are
getting from the reading you would get at that same moment in time at the
fixed location tells you the difference between your longitude and the
longitude of that fized position.
I am beginning to wonder if any of you people have ever
been to school.
Going to slchool, like reading a book, would do you more good if you
actually opened your mind and learned something in the process.
It had nothing to do with your church.
You're right, the sextant and the clock have nothing to do with "my
church." I have no church. I am not a Christian.
This eternally baffling atheist logic you people use is absurdist. If
a lawyer defends a man accused of murder, does this make the lawyer a
murderer by proxy???
There are conditions under which it could make him an accomplice.
I am defending Christinity for it's place in world history.
You are doing so from a Christian bias. Using materials which appear to have
been written by Christians, and are slanted in their presentation of
information.
Like it or
not, it did have an AWESOME effects on your lives, including the
inventions of the clock, computer and other things you seem to take
for granted. Like if the clock hadn't been invented, a ship's captain
might not have known where he was in longitude and miss a port of
call, which means maybe your granddaddy wouldn't have met your
grandmommy and poof, you wouldn't exist!
Only in Christian literature will the inventor of the clock be argued to
have been Christian, because we don't know who built the first successful
mechanical clocks.
Huh? Did you know that a "sexton" is an employee or officer of a
church who is responsible for the care and upkeep of church property
and sometimes for ringing bells and digging graves?
How can replacing a sexton have nothing to do with a church???
Goes to show you how ill-educated and prepared for real life these
kids are...
Saint Anatid of Bonecki
.
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| User: "Anatid Bonecki" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
25 Nov 2003 05:19:12 PM |
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"zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<nDNwb.13860
Described as in making an unsubstantiated claim.
No described in other posts with references to citations for my
evidence.
Later they needed a timepiece to
use for finding longitudes, not just for shipping, but for anyone out
on the open sea to find directions.
This had been sought after for as long as human beings have been navagating
the seas. In no sense is it a need which came along "later on".
Nobody said "later on." You are making a real butchery of your own
argument by putting words in my post I didn't use. No one in those
days past knew they needed a clock to help with longitude before they
discovered how useful a clock could be for finding longitude. They
needed a device, or some way to come to a mathematical conclusion. The
clock fit the bill. The clock which was developed by Christians for
Christian services.
I'm still waiting for your documentation that someone knows when and where
the first mechanical clock was invented.
You can wait as long as you need to. My other posts have that
information. I need not repeat it. It's in several books, try an
encyclopedia.
It is used in conjunction with a timepeice to determine longitude.
Right. But our other friend said the clock REPLACED the sextant. Plus
the sextant was in use before the clock was invented for use onboard
ships.
Thanks for the really lame explanation, it was of little service to
those of us who know what a sextant (not a sexton) is used for.
Going to slchool, like reading a book, would do you more good if you
actually opened your mind and learned something in the process.
That's what going to school is for. If you did not succeed in opening
your mind there, I highly dobut you would be training yourself later
to do so. However neither you nor your friend knows what you are
talking about. So perhaps you should either attend school and see what
it nets you, or go back and open your minds when you are there.
There are conditions under which it could make him an accomplice.
Red herring.
I am defending Christinity for it's place in world history.
You are doing so from a Christian bias.
Perhpas I should do so from a Buddhist bias?
However you are, as usual wrong. I am doing it from an unbiased
postition since I am not a Christian and have no need to see things
from their standpoint. Are you brain-dead?
Using materials which appear to have
been written by Christians, and are slanted in their presentation of
information.
Sorry, no one else pagans or otherwise wrote a history of Europe at
the time that describes the invention of the mechanical clock. If you
can find some other unbiased reference, let us in on it, instead of
vacuously arguing from contention lacking evidence or citation for
your views. Thanks.
Only in Christian literature will the inventor of the clock be argued to
have been Christian, because we don't know who built the first successful
mechanical clocks.
The mechanical clock is and was a Christian invention, specifically
put to use for Christian ritual. This is a fact. All other clocks were
not fully mechanical or self contained, but ran on water. Sundials are
NOT mechanical. They do not work indoors or under cloudy or rainy
conditions. A clock does. A mechanical clock stands alone and can be
transported and keeps time wherever it goes. A water clock cannot be,
because it has to have a certain pipe set up for delivering water.
Strating to get the picture? Even the Chinese use the European version
of the mechanical clock. Now, your other arguments are spurious and
based on your own ideas, not on historical documented fact. So It
would please me that you would find some proof of your illogical and
unhistorical assertions and bring them.
Saint Anatid of Bonecki
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| User: "ArWeGod" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
26 Nov 2003 12:52:55 AM |
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"Anatid Bonecki" <Anatid@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:ac57a0d7.0311251519.136985de@posting.google.com...
"zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<nDNwb.13860
Thanks for the really lame explanation, it was of little service to
those of us who know what a sextant (not a sexton) is used for.
I did mistype that one, but immediately corrected it a few moments later.
Note: if we could eliminate the Christians, we wouldn't need a bell ringer
for the church. Although burying Christians is always a noble profession.
-ArWeGod
.
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| User: "Anatid Bonecki" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
25 Nov 2003 12:15:06 PM |
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"zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news
<snip> of the grotesque example of idiocy.
Get an education. I guess we won't be seeing you anytime soon on Jeopardy.
Saint Anatid of Bonecki
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| User: "zayton" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
25 Nov 2003 12:42:09 PM |
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"Anatid Bonecki" <Anatid@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:ac57a0d7.0311251015.118e2683@posting.google.com...
"zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news
<snip> of the grotesque example of idiocy.
Get an education. I guess we won't be seeing you anytime soon on Jeopardy.
Saint Anatid of Bonecki
Oh,....
Is that where you got all your education?
Or did you also watch Hollywood Squares?
Joe
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists say they're just GREAT without religion |
21 Nov 2003 10:38:10 PM |
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In <bpk1d4$1obeo1$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de> angelicusrex wrote:
The mechanical clock, as we know it today and as it evolved was
invented by Christians for Monks so they could know when to toll the
vespers, etc. Other clocks were invented previously, however they did
not work well enough or accurately enough to be useful in secular
business
This is just total baloney. Period clocks were fine for period purposes.
The only pressure for new and better clocks, as has been pointed out was
by the British and other navies fairly far into the 18th century because
of the longitude problem when trying to navigate sailing ships.
The next big leap in clocks wasn't required until railroads began
running at high speeds across the United States and it was realized that
local time (i.e. the time you got on a sundial) in Cincinatti wasn't the
same as the local time you got in Chicago because of the curvature of
the Earth so extremely accurate watches (in the railroad era the best
were the watches of the Ball Watch Company, hence the phrase "You are
really on the Ball...") were required along with a standardized series
of "time zones" regardless of latitude which is why today Miami and New
York and Montreal all have the same time even though a sun dial in each
location would show noon several minutes apart. It was all necessary to
keep trains from colliding head-on after they had travelled long
distances with locally set watches, not because some bunch of nuns were
going to be late for morning vespers.
Today the reason we have cesium fountain clocks that track billionths of
a second is because of satellites and the same problems that once
plagued railroad schedules also occur when you put something the size of
a refrigerator thousands of miles above the Earth and then fly it past
ground transmitters at 17,000 miles per hour. If you are off by even a
fraction of a second you miss the signal - hence the need for faster and
faster clocks. The church can still get along nicely by sticking their
head out the window and getting a rough idea when the sun is going to
set.
Nevermore
, which was built AROUND the church prayer times and holy days
of the church calendar. The word Holiday means Holy Day. In order to
have these holidays or time off from work, one had to know when they
were. This meant precise time and ever more precise calendars and
clocks had to be invented.
Christians invented the mechanical clock as we know it today with the
face, numbers, zodiac signs, phases of the moon and hour, minute and
second hands.Other Christians invented the chronographic gauges,
including those used for barometric pressure, wattage, etc. Which all
came from the mechanical clocks used first by monasteries.
If you can find a clock in use today by any civilized culture that is
not based on this model, then please bring us the details.
Saint
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