"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net> wrote:
:|Dear scholar (Christopher L Morris),
:|
:|The treaty you speak of known as the Barbary Treaties of 1796 originally had
:|the following in it:
:|
:|"Glory be to God! Declaration of the third article. We have agreed that if
:|American Christians are traveling with a nation that is at war with the
:|well-preserved Tripoli, and he [evidently the Tripolitan] takes [prisoners]
:|from the Christian enemies and from the American (Christians with whom we
:|are at peace [the Arabic sentence is here most confused], then he sets him
:|[sic] free; neither he nor his goods shall be taken. Likewise, the
:|Americans, when they take [literally "bring"] ships of their enemies and
:|there are on board people from Tripoli, they shall not take one of them nor
:|their goods. Thus! [This word, occurring at the end of several articles,
:|seems to take the place of a full stop.] "
:|THIS WAS FROM THE ORIGINAL ARABIC VERSION AND IT WAS CONSIDERED GIBBERISH
:|
:|
:|Now please note what Wikipedia has to say about this original treaty:
:|In 1930, it was discovered that the extant original Arabic version
:|(http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796e.htm) of
:|Article 11 was gibberish. Presumably, it was changed at some point after
:|Barlow certified his English translation on January 4, 1797. Regardless, it
:|was the English version that was approved by President John Adams and
:|Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and ratified by the Senate.
:|
:|
:|ARTICLE 11 ( the one you speak of):
:|As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
:|founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of
:|enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the
:|said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any
:|Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from
:|religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
:|existing between the two countries.
:|
:|Christopher, Article 11 (which the one you speak of) WAS THEN REMOVED IN
:|1805 !!!!!!!!!!!
:|Wikipedia( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_with_Tripoli_%281796%29) :
:|"The Treaty was broken in 1801 by the pasha of Tripoli and renegotiated in
:|1805 after the First Barbary War, at which time Article 11 was removed."
:|
:|The treaty was signed with the United States and a Muslim nation. My guess
:|is that Article 11 was just to serve the purpose of not stepping on the
:|other nations religious toes. None the less it was removed.
So what, it was no longer necessary.
Are you really trying to say that because a new treaty was worked out that
makes the fact that the US Senate ratified the previous one and a U S
President signed it into law irrelevant?
No, it does not.
They did it, it was law and it contained the following
ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of
enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the
said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any
Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising
from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
existing between the two countries.
What was included in 1805?
ARTICLE 14th
As the Government of the United States of America, has in itself no
character of enmity against the Laws, Religion or Tranquility of Musselmen,
and as the said States never have entered into any voluntary war or act of
hostility against any Mahometan Nation, except in the defence of their just
rights to freely navigate the High Seas: It is declared by the contracting
parties that no pretext arising from Religious Opinions, shall ever produce
an interruption of the Harmony existing between the two Nations; And the
Consuls and Agents of both Nations respectively, shall have liberty to
exercise his Religion in his own house; all slaves of the same Religion
shall not be Impeded in going to said Consuls house at hours of Prayer. The
Consuls shall have liberty and personal security given them to travel
within the Territories of each other, both by land and sea, and shall not
be prevented from going on board any Vessel that they may think proper to
visit; they shall have likewise the liberty to appoint their own Drogoman
and Brokers.
*******************************************************
There was no need to repeat once again Article 11 of the treaty of 1796-97
The treaty of 1805 picked up where the other left off
:|And for your information a Unitarian is according to Wikipedia:
:|"Unitarianism emerged out of Christianity based on a belief in the oneness
:|of God, a rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity, and a belief in the
:|moral authority, but not the deity, of JESUS. Unitarians can be more
:|generally characterized through the ages as free thinkers and dissenters,
:|evolving their beliefs in the direction of freedom, tolerance, rationalism
:|and humanism."
:|
:|I never said this nation was a Christian nation, although they it seemed to
:|be a majority of the time, I said that this country was founded and was
:|heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian ideology.
Which has been shown to be incorrect:
**************************************************
The root of American law, government, etc
*************************************************
* Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm
The Christian Bible and the Foundations of the U.S.
http://candst.tripod.com/biblfoun.htm
How often did the founders quote the Bible?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg9.htm
Did Madison ever say that religion is the foundation of government?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/misq2.htm
Did Montesquieu base his theory of separation of powers on the Bible?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/montesquieu.htm
*************************************************************
SOME CLAIM THAT THIS ALSO WAS AN INFLUENCE
"Iroquois Confederacy Formed Basis for U.S. Constitution."
Indian Life Magazine 17:1 (March/April, 1996), p. 9.
From: maff91 (maffxx@nospam.my-deja.com)
Subject: Re: Deism's part in American Revolution
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.us-revolution, alt.history.colonial,
alt.religion.christian.presbyterian, alt.religion.deism, alt.atheism
Date: 1999/11/15
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=george+washington++letter+to+magna+carta&hl=en&lr=&i
e=UTF-8&selm=hn8wONr9XcVZdbY2LyEM3muG1oUK%404ax.com&rnum=9
http://makeashorterlink.com/?M6F0259F8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maff91 (maffxx@nospam.my-deja.com)
Subject: Re: The Age of Reason
View: Complete Thread (64 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.atheism, alt.religion.angels, alt.religion.goddess,
alt.religion.wicca, alt.witchcraft, sci.skeptic
Date: 1999/10/29
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=maff91,+%22Iroquois+Confederacy+Formed+Basis+for+U.
S.+Constitution.&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=yCgaOP2IuMh4bykWdQbm8fN2kpXz%404ax.
com&rnum=5&filter=0
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D54142AF8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ()
Subject: Re: Iroquois League = model for US Constitution?
Newsgroups: alt.native
Date: 2000/07/19
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+Iroquois+Confederacy++U.S.+Constitution.&hl=en&lr=&i
e=UTF-8&selm=397501a4.38440920%40news.axess.com&rnum=2
http://makeashorterlink.com/?A57115AF8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chris (Christopher.Newell@Dartmouth.edu)
Subject: Roots of Constitution in Iroquois Confederacy, Scholars Say
Newsgroups: soc.culture.native, alt.native, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
alt.politics.clinton
Date: 1994-03-03 07:08:30 PST
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+Iroquois+Confederacy++U.S.+Constitution.&hl=en&lr=&i
e=UTF-8&selm=2l4uhe%24q6u%40dartvax.dartmouth.edu&rnum=3
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X18112AF8
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HERE IS AN ENTIRE THREAD ON THE SUBJECT
From: ()
Subject: Re: Constitution and Iroquois
alt.politics.usa.constitution, soc.history.war.us-revolution
Date: 2002-11-19 07:34:06 PST
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=653vtu4v69h9ou4vsrhluq85f
7t5dfe0cj%404ax.com&rnum=74&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2BIroquois%2BConfederacy%2B
%2BU.S.%2BConstitution.%26start%3D70%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26scori
ng%3Dd%26selm%3D653vtu4v69h9ou4vsrhluq85f7t5dfe0cj%25404ax.com%26rnum%3D74
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C6C132AF8
*****************************************************************
OCTOBER 1789
To the Ministers and Ruling Elders delegated to represent the churches in
Massachusetts and New Hampshire, which compose the First Presbytery of the
Eastward.
The tribute of thanksgiving which you offer to the gracious Father of
lights, for his inspiration of our public councils with wisdom and firmness
to complete the national Constitution, is worthy of men who, devoted to the
pious purposes of religion, desire their accomplishment by such means as
advance the temporal happiness of mankind. And here, I am persuaded, you
will permit me to observe, that the path of true piety is so plain as to
require but little Political attention. To this consideration we ought to
ascribe the absence of any regulation respecting religion from the Magna
Charta [constitution] of our country.
To the guidance of the ministers of the gospel this important object is,
perhaps, more properly committed. It will be your care to instruct tile
ignorant, to reclaim the devious; and in the progress of morality and
science, to which our government will give every furtherance, we may expect
confidently, the advancement of true religion and the completion of
happiness. I pray the munificent rewarder of every virtue, that your agency
in this good work may receive its
compensation here and hereafter.
GEORGE WASHINGTON.
(Unless otherwise indicated originals or original copies of all the George
Washington letters can be found in THE PAPERS OF GEORGE WASHINGTON,
LIBRARY OF CONGRESS, with the proper volume and page number following each
excerpted letter: i.e. Papers, CCCXXXIV, 80.)
(Excerpt from a letter written by G. Washington, October, 1789. GEORGE
WASHINGTON & RELIGION, By Paul F. Boller, JR. Southern Methodist University
Press, Dallas, 1962, pp 180- 181)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following year [1784], when asking Tench Tilghman to secure a
carpenter and a bricklayer for his Mount Vernon estate,
he [Washington] remarked: "If they are good workmen, they may be of
Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans,
Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists." As he told a
Mennonite minister who sought refuge in the United
States after the Revolution: "I had always hoped that this land might
become a safe and agreeable Asylum to the virtuous and
persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong...."
He was, as John Bell pointed out in 1779, "a total
stranger to religious prejudices, which have so often excited
Christians of one denomination to cut the throats of those of
another." (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas:
Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, p. 118.
According to Boller, Washington wrote his remarks to Tilghman in a
letter dated March 24, 1784; his remarks to the
Mennonite--Francis Adrian Van der Kemp--were in a letter dated May 28,
1788.)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=george+washington+letter+to+magna+carta&hl=en&lr=&ie
=UTF-8&selm=zQcWOHLc2ac4XDua2vOZfxPz7t6k%404ax.com&rnum=10
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D261639F8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mike Curtis (mike@x.aimetering.com.nospam)
Subject: Re: George Washington not Christian
Newsgroups: alt.history, alt.history.colonial,
alt.politics.usa.constitution, alt.religion.christian, alt.deism,
alt.religion.deism
Date: 1999/09/09
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=george+washington+letter+to+magna+carta&start=10&hl=e
n&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=UMnXN%3D07%3DDPwgjdc8%2Bb0db8DvG2g%404ax.com&rnum =19
http://makeashorterlink.com/?E5A1339F8
*******************************************************************
THE MAJOR INFLUENCES ON AMERICA WERE IN THE ODER GIVEN:
From: ()
Subject: Re: Deism
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.us-revolution, alt.history.colonial, alt.deism,
alt.religion.deism, alt.history
Date: 2000/01/16
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2683056965d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=b89
48sg1ftt4tf6lii2pf86tvlf3u94na4%404ax.com
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N272429F8
(1) HERITAGE OF CLASSICAL ANTIQUITYeritage of classical antiquity
Knowledge of classical authors was universal among colonists with any
degree of education.
The above appears on page 23
(2) IDEAS AND ATTITUDES ASSOCIATED WITH THE WRITINGS OF
ENLIGHTENMENT RATIONALISM
The above appears on page 26
including the leading secular thinkers of the European Enlightenment.
The above appears on page 27
(3) TRADITION OF LAW, ESPECIALLY ENGLISH COMMON LAW
The above appears on page 30-31 and is paraphrased
(4) POLITICAL AND SOCIAL THEORIES OF NEW ENGLIAND
PURITANISM AND IN GENERAL THE ENTIRE SPECTRUM OF
AMERICAN PROTESTANISM
The above can be found on page 32
and finally:
(5) A fifth area actually helped shape the above and bring it together into
a active force, because many of the above four groups of writings, writers
and thought/philosophies were actually in conflict with each other. That
fifth area was the radical social and political thought of the English
Civil war and the Commonwealth Period. People like Milton, Harrington,
Neville, Sidney.
This discussion can be found beginning on page 33
SOURCE: The Ideological Orgins of the American Revolution, Enlarged
Edition, Bernard Bailyn. The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press,
(1992) pp. 22-37
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Sinclair (jeffreysinclair@my-deja.com)
Subject: Gardiner Distorts Bailyn and Smears Allison (Part 1 of 2)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.us-revolution, alt.history.colonial, alt.deism,
alt.religion.deism
Date: 2000/01/16
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Bailyn,+enlightenment,+classical,+secular&hl=en&lr=&ie=
UTF-8&selm=85rlj1%24sfe%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rnum=1
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B2F1129F8
From: Jeff Sinclair <jeffreysinclair@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups:
soc.history.war.us-revolution,alt.history.colonial,alt.deism,alt.religion.deism
Subject: Gardiner Distorts Bailyn and Smears Allison (Part 2 of 2)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 05:39:49 GMT
<<Part 2 of 2>>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2683056965d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=jm2
68s4vqgolin28ifsmao6toctke2tem6%404ax.com
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X362259F8
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Sinclair (jeffreysinclair@my-deja.com)
Subject: Re: The Founders Were Deists? (PART II)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.us-revolution, alt.history.colonial,
sci.skeptic, alt.deism
Date: 2000/01/08
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Bailyn,+enlightenment,+classical,+secular&hl=en&lr=&ie=
UTF-8&selm=856q2q%244d0%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rnum=4
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z112219F8
*******************************************************
<tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
http://www.beyondbooks.com/ush72/2b_link.asp
Information on who started the original colonies, who paid the bills, and
why they were started.
Hint: it was for MONEY!! Rich investors hoped for a good return on their
investments! Capitalism! Profit!
That, mon petite, is what America was founded on.
Read it and weep . . .
--Tock
*********************************************************
Study Guide: The Roots of American Democracy
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd8.htm
Roots of American Law
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/histlaw.htm
o The Complete Ten Commandments, a Study Guide
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/10commsg.htm
* Madison's Arguments Against Special Religious Sanction of American
Government
http://candst.tripod.com/madlib.htm
* Treaty of Tripoli, 1796: Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by
President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tripoli1.htm
* A Baptist minister and follow warrior with Jefferson, Madison and
others in the struggle for religious freedom gave this advice about
electing public officials: "...guard against those men who make a great
noise about religion..."
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/leland5.htm
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
LAW
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=judge+made+law++law,+english+common+law,+sources+of+law&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=8qjhtv0qraac4ja6i40oigj6ovub25klm5%404ax.com&rnum=11
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B55C34CF8
o Is Christianity part of English Common Law
http://candst.tripod.com/joestor4.htm
.
|
