| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
25 Mar 2005 01:35:19 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
"Maverick" <justgopub...@nomail.com> wrote:
:|I am passing along what the Supreme Court said. Many people try to pass off
:|the "marriage is civil right" phrase without including the entire text. What
:|the court said is that "marriage AND procreation" combine to form a
:|fundamental right basic to the survival of the race. Simple logic proves
:|this. Can we survive without marriage? Sure we can. Can we survive without
:|procreation. Not for long. In the days that this decision was taken, society
:|frowned upon unwedded child bearing. Thus, when the Supreme Court decided a
:|number of cases on the basis that "procreation" was fundamental to our
:|survival, they included marriage as a matter of political correctness of the
:|times. When the homosexual community attempts to use a case that claims
:|"marriage is a civil right" as a basis for same sex marriage they are being
:|dishonest. Marriage is a contract between 3 separate entities. A husband, a
:|wife and a state. It is not a right. A person can give up a right, such as
:|"you have the right to remain silent, if you give up this right", without
:|government accompaniment. No one can give up a legal marriage without
:|government accompaniment. They have to get court approval to disolve the
:|marriage. Even if it was a common law marriage, if there is property or
:|children involved.
What formal training have you had in law?
Do you know the meaning of Issues, Facts, Holding, Held, Ruled, Ruling,
Dicta?
Let's look at some important things:
LOVING v. VIRGINIA, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=1
[Holding]
Virginia's statutory scheme to prevent marriages between persons solely on
the basis of racial classifications held to violate the Equal Protection
and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. Pp. 4-12.
206 Va. 924, 147 S. E. 2d 78, reversed.
*****************************************************************************
SOME MORE INFO:
http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/214/
http://www.4lawschool.com/conlaw/love.shtml
http://www.4lawschool.com/conlaw/lov.shtml
Loving v. Virginia
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=Loving%20v.%20Virginia
What Chief Justice Warren said
The clear and central purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to eliminate
all official sources of invidious racial discrimination in the States.
There can be no question but that Virginia's miscegenation statutes rest
solely upon distinctions drawn according to race. The statutes proscribe
generally accepted conduct if engaged in by members of different races. At
the very least, the Equal Protection Clause demands that racial
classifications, especially suspect in criminal statutes, be subjected to
the "most rigid scrutiny", and, if they are ever to be upheld, they must be
shown to be necessary to the accomplishment of some permissible state
objective, independent of the racial discrimination which was the object of
the Fourteenth Amendment to eliminate. Indeed, two members of this Court
have already stated that they "cannot conceive of a valid legislative
purpose...which makes the color of a person's skin the test of whether his
conduct is a criminal offense."
These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of
law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The
freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal
rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.
Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very
existence and survival. To deny this fundamental freedom on so
unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these
statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of
equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all
the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth
Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by
invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to
marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual
and cannot be infringed by the State.
*********************************************************************************
The Marriage Cases
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1707576
f a law doesn't infringe on a fundamental rights or involve a "suspect
class", it can still be challenged as totally arbitrary and unreasonable.
As long as the government can advance a "rational basis" for a law, it
survives the test. The reason doesn't have to be based on evidence or
facts, it just has to make sense. In effect, the judge says, "Give me one
good reason why the government needs this law" and if a lawyer can make up
a good reason off the top of his head, then the law stands. Here Judge
Kramer's opinion rests on solid United States Supreme Court precedent. The
Supreme Court has thrown out a Colorado law which abolished local civil
rights laws protecting homosexuals (equal access to housing, employment,
etc.) using the "rational basis test". Romer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620 (1996).
Also, the Supreme Court has recognized that sexual activity between
consenting adults is a protected exercise of "liberty", and struck down
Texas' sodomy laws. Lawrence v. Texas, 539 US 558 (2003). Technically,
Lawrence was a Due Process case, not an Equal Protection case, and the
Court stated that its holding did not extend to the issue of same-sex
marriage. Lawrence does foreclose, however, the easiest "rational basis"
argument the government could have made here: that sodomy is a crime and
prohibiting same-sex marriage helps fight crime.
Now that sodomy laws are unconstitutional, opponents of same-sex marriage
are struggling to find a rationale for their position which will stand up
in a court of law. "The Bible says so" is not a very effective legal
argument, especially in this case, where the Bible says no such thing. The
government, pointing out that California law already extends many of the
legal protections of marriage to same-sex couples, tried to make a case
that California was not discriminating against homosexuals, but asserted
that the government had an interest in reserving the term "marriage" for
couples who can procreate. Citing language in some 19th century California
cases, the government argued that it had a legitimate purpose in defining
"marriage" to include only couples who can procreate. Judge Kramer
dispensed with this argument by pointing out that opposite sex couples who
either cannot or do not want children are allowed to marry in California.
In California, the judge observed, "One does not have to be married in
order to procreate, nor does one have to procreate in order to be married."
Moreover, Judge Kramer noted, the fact that same-sex couples enjoyed all
the benefits of marriage under California law, except the dignity of the
name of "marriage", suggests that there was no legitimate government
purpose for the law depriving them of that dignity. Tradition isn't enough,
when entire classes are being denied fundamental rights for no reason other
than tradition.
Opponents of same-sex marriage immediately stepped up to microphones to
call the decision "ludicrous", "mind-boggling", "activist", and "judicial
tyranny". Talking heads on the television announced in grave tones that the
decision "was certain to be appealed", suggesting there was something wrong
with it. In fact, while the decision will be appealed, it will be affirmed.
In light of controlling precedent from the United States Supreme Court and
similar California State Supreme Court rulings, it does not appear to me
that Judge Kramer (who is decribed to be a Catholic and Republican in his
personal life) had much choice in ruling the way he did, nor will the
California Supreme Court.
Judge Kramer's decision was expressly based on the Constitution of the
State of California. This has led some same-sex marriage opponents to
announce that they will seek to amend the state constitution. State
constitutions are easier to amend than the federal Constitution. Two bills
are pending before the California Legislature that would put a
constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage on the November ballot,
and if the passage of Proposition 22 (one of the laws defining marriage in
California as between a man and a woman) is any indication, such an
amendment could succeed. State constitutional amendments prohibiting
same-sex marriage passed last year in a dozen states.
Amendments to state constitutions will not help in the inevitable battle at
the federal level. The cases cited by Judge Kramer —United States Supreme
Court decisions based on the Fourteenth Amendment to the federal
Constitution— show that his decision was compelled by the United States
Constitution. Thus, opponents of same-sex marriage will have to muster
better arguments to persuade the United States Supreme Court, or gather
together the super-majority (3/4) of state legislatures necessary to amend
the United States Constitution, if they expect to prevail in the end. A
dozen "red states" are not enough to amend the federal Constitution.
In the Supreme Court, the only plausible argument I can think of would be
something based on the New Federalism: the notion that some areas of law
are for the States to decide. Granted, this would sound a lot like the
"States Rights" arguments which were shot down in flames during the civil
rights movement. "States Rights" might be more acceptable to the Court now,
if it were limited to marriage and domestic relations laws, which in the
United States have always been the prerogative of state legislatures to
define and regulate, and which vary considerably from state to state. This
would require, however, some fancy legal footwork to distinguish Loving v.
Virginia, Romer v. Evans, and Lawrence v. Texas, and I don't give it a
snowball's chance in Hell. If the commentary on this case from the
Religious Right is any indication, they will certainly fail to persuade the
necessary supermajority of the American people. As Lincoln said, "You can
fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the
time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Skinner v. Oklahoma ex rel. Williamson, 316 U.S. 535 (1942)
Sterilization, Eugenics, and Privacy
http://atheism.about.com/library/decisions/privacy/bldec_SkinnerOK.htm
Significance
In this decision, the Supreme Court held that the acts of marriage and
procreation were fundamental rights of all people, even though the
Constitution does not specifically list them as such. Thus, a private
sphere of conduct between individuals was being recognized.
*******************************************************************************************
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/skinner.html
But the instant legislation runs afoul of the equal protection clause,
though we give Oklahoma that large deference which the rule of the
foregoing cases requires. We are dealing here with legislation which
involves one of the basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are
fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race. The power to
sterilize, if exercised, may have subtle, far-reaching and devastating
effects. In evil or reckless hands it can cause races or types which are
inimical to the dominant group to wither and disappear. There is no
redemption for the individual whom the law touches.
***********************************************************************************
Marriage and precreation does not mean procreation is required. It does
not mean even a potential for precreation is required.
It is absurb for you to imply or suggest otherwise. If they were so tests
would have to be made upon application fopr a marriage lic to ensure both
persons were capable of producing childern. They would have to swear they
wantd children and were going to try and have children.
Anyone who was infertile, or did not want to produce children would be,
based on your your position, denied the right to marry
How stupid your position is when actually looked at.
SUMMING UP
The Court's decisions have afforded constitutional protection to personal
decisions relating to marriage, see, e.g., Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1,
procreation, Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, family relationships,
Prince v. Massachusetts, 321 U.S. 158, child rearing and education, Pierce
v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510, and contraception, see, e.g., Griswold
v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479, and have recognized the right of the
individual to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters
so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or
beget a child, Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S. 438, 453. Roe's central
holding properly invoked the reasoning and tradition of these precedents.
Pp. 846-853.
CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTION TO PERSONAL DECISIONS RELATING TO MARRIAGE:
LOVING v VIRGINIA, PROCREATION: SKINNER v OKLAHOMA
Marriage is a fundamental right, precreation is a fundamenetal right.
However, unliKe what you are trying to sell, precreation is not a required
standard for marriage.
Check out Griswold v Connecticut.
************************************************************************
http://www.bpf.org/html/resources_and_links/statements/pdfs/samesexmarriage.pdf
Here are a few facts to consider:
• In 1967, when interracial marriage was legalized, the U.S. Supreme Court
ruled that “marriage is one of the basic civil rights of man [sic],
fundamental to our very existence and survival.”
• Civil marriage offers 1,049 federal protections and benefits. Hundreds
more are offered by every state. These include rights that cover medical
emergencies, taxes, financial issues, inheritance, burial decisions,
adoption, family law, employment benefits, immigration, Social Security,
housing, and veterans’ benefits.
• In 2003, the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled that the ban on same-sex
marriage is unconstitutional, and the first state-sanctioned same-sex
marriages began on May 17, 2004.
• Some cities and states offer domestic partnership benefits, Vermont
offers civil unions, and Hawaii has “reciprocal beneficiaries.” However,
these forms of partnership fall short of civil marriage, offering only a
handful of state rights and responsibilities, which are not transferable to
another state, and no federal rights. • Same-gender couples already legally
marry in the Netherlands, Belgium, and Canada. The U.S. does not recognize
these marriages within the U.S.
• If ratified, the proposed U.S. constitutional amendment prohibiting
same-sex marriage would be the only constitutional amendment in history,
with the exception of Prohibition (which was repealed), to reduce civil
rights. Every other constitutional amendment has expanded civil rights.
• State-sanctioned marriage would not require any religious organization to
perform or recognize any marriage. No legislative enactment will change the
tenets of any religious faith. In the spirit of freedom, justice, civil
rights, and equal protection under the law for all human beings, the
Buddhist Peace Fellowship supports civil marriage for samegender couples
who choose to marry and to share fully and equally in the rights and
responsibilities of marriage. We oppose a U.S. constitutional amendment to
prohibit the basic civil right of marriage for same-gender couples.
*******************************************************************************
- Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey, 505 US 833,851
(1992)
The following is how Justice Ling-Cohan follows up on the above point:
Under both the Federal and New York State Constitutions, it is beyond
question that the right to liberty, and the concomitant right toprivacy,
extend to protect marriage. The United States Supreme Court has long
recognized the fundamental importance of marriage. As early as 1888, in
Maynard v. Hill (125 US 190, 205, 211 [1888]), the Supreme Court stated
that marriage “creat[es] the most important relation in life” and is “the
foundation of the family and of society, without which there would be
neither civilization nor progress.”
In 1923, the Supreme Court in Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 US 390, 399 (1923),
recognized that the right “to marry, establish a home and bring up
children” is a central part of the liberty protected by the Due Process
Clause. Nineteen years later, in Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 US at 541 (1942),
it described marriage as “fundamental to the very existence and survival of
the race.” In 1967, the Loving Court recognized marriage as a fundamental
right under the Constitution, striking down the state’s antimiscegenation
statute: “The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital
personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free
men... Marriage is one of the ‘basic civil rights of man,’ fundamental to
our very existence and survival.” 388 US at 12 (quoting Skinner, supraat
541).
One decade later, in Zablocki v. Redhail, (434 US at 384 [1978]), the Court
reaffirmed its holding in Loving, stating that “[a]lthough Loving arose in
the context of racial discrimination, prior and subsequent decisions of
this Court confirm that the right to marry is of fundamental importance for
all individuals.” Furthermore, the Supreme Court has noted that marriage is
a: “right of privacy older than the Bill of Rights – older than our
political parties, older than our school system. Marriage is a coming
together for better or for worse, hopefully enduring, and intimate to a
degree of being sacred. It is an association that promotes a way of life,
not causes; a harmony in living, not political faiths; a bilateral loyalty,
not commercial or social projects. Yet it is an association for as noble a
purpose as any involved in our prior decisions.”
Griswold v. Conn., 381 US at 486 (emphasis supplied). The Supreme Court has
“long recognized that freedom of personal choice in matters of marriage and
family life is one of the liberties protected by the Due Process Clause of
the Fourteenth Amendment.” Cleveland Bd of Ed v. LaFleur, 414 US 632,
639-40 (1974); see also Zablocki, 434 US at 384 (quoting Griswold, supra).
As stated by the Supreme Court: “At the heart of liberty is the right to
define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of
the mystery of human life. Beliefs about these matters could not define the
attributes of personhood were they formed under compulsion of the State.”
Lawrence v.Texas, 539 US 558, 574 (2003) (quoting Planned Parenthood of
Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey, 505 US at 851). The Court further
emphasized that “[t]hese matters, involving the most intimate and personal
choices a person may make in a lifetime, choices central to personal
dignity and autonomy, are central to the liberty protected by the
Fourteenth Amendment.” Id.
As other States have also observed, the right to marry "is not a privilege
conferred by the State, but a fundamental right that is protected against
unwarranted State interference." Goodridge v. Department of Public Health,
440 Mass at 345, 798 NE2d at 970 (Greaney, J. concurring). "[I]t is a
fundamental right of free men." Perez v. Sharp, 32 Cal 2d at 714, 198 P2d
at 19.
The second aspect of the fundamental right to marry, which is what this
action concerns, is the right to choose whom one marries. The right to
choose one's spouse "resides with the individual." See Loving, 388 US at 12
(freedom to marry embraces the choice to select a partner across racial
lines which cannot be infringed by State);Perez, 32 Cal 2d 711, supra
(same); Goodridge, 440 Mass 309, supra (freedom to marry person of same
sex). "The right to marry means little if it does not include the right to
marry the person of one's choice..." Goodridge, 440 Mass at 227, 798 NE2d
at 958. See also Perez, 32 Cal 2d at 715, 198 P2d at 19 ("right to marry is
the right to join in marriage with the person of one's choice"); Brause v.
Bureau of Vital Statistics, 1998 WL 88743*6 (Alaska Super)(deciding whom to
marry is a fundamental right, whether decision results in traditional or
nontraditional choice), superseded by Alaska Const Art 1, § 25 (effective
Jan. 3, 1999) (providing that a valid marriage "may exist only between one
man and one woman").
Because the exclusion of same-sex couples from eligibility for civil
marriage infringes the fundamental right to choose one's spouse, such
exclusion may be sustained only if it serves a compelling state interest.
The Supreme Court has consistently reaffirmed that, since the freedom to
marry is a fundamental right, restrictions that “significantly interfere
with decisions to enter into the marital relationship” are subject to
“rigorous scrutiny” and “cannot be upheld unless ... supported by
sufficiently important state interests ...closely tailored to effectuate
only those interests.” Zablocki, 434 US at 386-388.
There are three decisions concerning the right of a gay couple to marry:
Hernandez, et al., v. Victor L Robles, City Clerk of the City of New York,
Goodridge v. Department of Public Health, from Massachusetts, and Heather
Anderson and Leslie Christina; et al., v. King County, et al. from the
state of Washington. All three concur that marriage and the right to choose
one's partner in marriage, are fundamental rights protected by the U.S.
Constitution. All three confirm that it is unconstitutional to disallow gay
couples the right to marry.
.
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
25 Mar 2005 11:42:40 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:35:19 -0500, wrote:
"Maverick" <justgopub...@nomail.com> wrote:
:|I am passing along what the Supreme Court said. Many people try to pass off
:|the "marriage is civil right" phrase without including the entire text. What
:|the court said is that "marriage AND procreation" combine to form a
:|fundamental right basic to the survival of the race. Simple logic proves
:|this. Can we survive without marriage? Sure we can. Can we survive without
:|procreation. Not for long. In the days that this decision was taken, society
:|frowned upon unwedded child bearing. Thus, when the Supreme Court decided a
:|number of cases on the basis that "procreation" was fundamental to our
:|survival, they included marriage as a matter of political correctness of the
:|times. When the homosexual community attempts to use a case that claims
:|"marriage is a civil right" as a basis for same sex marriage they are being
:|dishonest. Marriage is a contract between 3 separate entities. A husband, a
:|wife and a state. It is not a right. A person can give up a right, such as
:|"you have the right to remain silent, if you give up this right", without
:|government accompaniment. No one can give up a legal marriage without
:|government accompaniment. They have to get court approval to disolve the
:|marriage. Even if it was a common law marriage, if there is property or
:|children involved.
What formal training have you had in law?
Do you know the meaning of Issues, Facts, Holding, Held, Ruled, Ruling,
Dicta?
Let's look at some important things:
LOVING v. VIRGINIA, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=1
[Holding]
Virginia's statutory scheme to prevent marriages between persons solely on
the basis of racial classifications held to violate the Equal Protection
and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. Pp. 4-12.
Race/ethnicity is not a behavior. Homosexuality is. One cannot change
their race/ethnicity. Homosexual behavior can be reversed. It has, is
and will continue to be done in spite of the homosexually dominated
APA.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Shadow Walker" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
26 Mar 2005 02:03:03 PM |
|
|
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:35:19 -0500, wrote:
"Maverick" <justgopub...@nomail.com> wrote:
:|I am passing along what the Supreme Court said. Many people try to pass off
:|the "marriage is civil right" phrase without including the entire text. What
:|the court said is that "marriage AND procreation" combine to form a
:|fundamental right basic to the survival of the race. Simple logic proves
:|this. Can we survive without marriage? Sure we can. Can we survive without
:|procreation. Not for long. In the days that this decision was taken, society
:|frowned upon unwedded child bearing. Thus, when the Supreme Court decided a
:|number of cases on the basis that "procreation" was fundamental to our
:|survival, they included marriage as a matter of political correctness of the
:|times. When the homosexual community attempts to use a case that claims
:|"marriage is a civil right" as a basis for same sex marriage they are being
:|dishonest. Marriage is a contract between 3 separate entities. A husband, a
:|wife and a state. It is not a right. A person can give up a right, such as
:|"you have the right to remain silent, if you give up this right", without
:|government accompaniment. No one can give up a legal marriage without
:|government accompaniment. They have to get court approval to disolve the
:|marriage. Even if it was a common law marriage, if there is property or
:|children involved.
What formal training have you had in law?
Do you know the meaning of Issues, Facts, Holding, Held, Ruled, Ruling,
Dicta?
Let's look at some important things:
LOVING v. VIRGINIA, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=1
[Holding]
Virginia's statutory scheme to prevent marriages between persons solely on
the basis of racial classifications held to violate the Equal Protection
and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. Pp. 4-12.
Race/ethnicity is not a behavior. Homosexuality is. One cannot change
their race/ethnicity. Homosexual behavior can be reversed.
There really isn't good case evidence for this "can be reversed"
thing, most attempts fail, and the individual reverts.
It has, is
and will continue to be done in spite of the homosexually dominated
APA.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "L. Michael Roberts" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
26 Mar 2005 05:02:46 AM |
|
|
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:35:19 -0500, wrote:
"Maverick" <justgopub...@nomail.com> wrote:
<snip>
What formal training have you had in law?
Do you know the meaning of Issues, Facts, Holding, Held, Ruled, Ruling,
Dicta?
Let's look at some important things:
LOVING v. VIRGINIA, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=1
[Holding]
Virginia's statutory scheme to prevent marriages between persons solely on
the basis of racial classifications held to violate the Equal Protection
and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. Pp. 4-12.
Race/ethnicity is not a behavior.
Neither is homosexuality....
Homosexuality is.
In the same way that heterosexuality is a behaviour? Are you claiming
that you are only heterosexual while you are having sex? Are you
claiming that while you were still a virgin, you had no idea what sex
you were oriented to?
<snip>
--
+==================== L. Michael Roberts ======================+
This represents my personal opinion and NOT Company policy
Goderich, Ont, Canada. To reply, post a request for my valid E-mail
"Life is a sexually transmitted, terminal, condition"
+================================================================+
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
26 Mar 2005 08:53:05 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:02:46 -0500, "L. Michael Roberts"
<L_Michael_Roberts@nospam.com> wrote:
wbt@privacy.net wrote:
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:35:19 -0500, wrote:
"Maverick" <justgopub...@nomail.com> wrote:
<snip>
What formal training have you had in law?
Do you know the meaning of Issues, Facts, Holding, Held, Ruled, Ruling,
Dicta?
Let's look at some important things:
LOVING v. VIRGINIA, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=1
[Holding]
Virginia's statutory scheme to prevent marriages between persons solely on
the basis of racial classifications held to violate the Equal Protection
and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. Pp. 4-12.
Race/ethnicity is not a behavior.
Neither is homosexuality....
Homosexuality is.
In the same way that heterosexuality is a behaviour?
Heterosexuality is the sexual orientation that all of the world's
societies have accepted as appropriate for marriage. There
have been a few exceptions but not enough to really make a
difference. Homosexual marriage is still not accepted in just a
few points less than 100 percent of the worlds societies.
Are you claiming
that you are only heterosexual while you are having sex? Are you
claiming that while you were still a virgin, you had no idea what sex
you were oriented to?
No, I'm a heterosexual. Heterosexuality is not a sexual perversion.
Homosexuality is and that's the way the majority of the world's
societies elect to treat it. Take it or leave it; In the end THE
MAJORITY RULES one way or another.
<snip>
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
29 Mar 2005 07:04:50 PM |
|
|
"Maverick" <justgopub...@nomail.com> wrote:
:|Homosexuality must be some kind of mental disfunction.
Dude, you have some serious problems and your doing a great job of trolling
as well.
You're the guy who used to post this:
When someone includes something like this
"I come here not to argue, persuade nor respond
to displays of immaturity, but only to inform from
the annals of history."
in their post they really should have a very good grasp of the history they
are trying to talk about.
Based on the following your don't have that grasp of the history you claim
you are trying "to inform from the annals of history."
#######################################################
So far you have demonstrated you don't know history be it legal history or
American history or church state history, history of marriage or even the
fact that gays were married in churches in the middle ages, etc
* Same Sex Marriage, Separation of Church And State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/samesex.html
You are showing you are quite the bigot and you are coming here arguing
trying to persuade and you are showing a good deal of immaturity when you
make a comment like
:|Homosexuality must be some kind of mental disfunction.
BTW, what sort of mental dysfunction is bigotry
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Nick J." |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
26 Mar 2005 09:19:06 AM |
|
|
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:02:46 -0500, "L. Michael Roberts"
<L_Michael_Roberts@nospam.com> wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:35:19 -0500, wrote:
"Maverick" <justgopub...@nomail.com> wrote:
<snip>
What formal training have you had in law?
Do you know the meaning of Issues, Facts, Holding, Held, Ruled,
Ruling,
Dicta?
Let's look at some important things:
LOVING v. VIRGINIA, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=1
[Holding]
Virginia's statutory scheme to prevent marriages between persons
solely on
the basis of racial classifications held to violate the Equal
Protection
and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. Pp. 4-12.
Race/ethnicity is not a behavior.
Neither is homosexuality....
Homosexuality is.
In the same way that heterosexuality is a behaviour?
Heterosexuality is the sexual orientation that all of the world's
societies have accepted as appropriate for marriage. There
have been a few exceptions but not enough to really make a
difference. Homosexual marriage is still not accepted in just a
few points less than 100 percent of the worlds societies.
Are you claiming
that you are only heterosexual while you are having sex? Are you
claiming that while you were still a virgin, you had no idea what
sex
you were oriented to?
No, I'm a heterosexual. Heterosexuality is not a sexual perversion.
Homosexuality is and that's the way the majority of the world's
societies elect to treat it. Take it or leave it; In the end THE
MAJORITY RULES one way or another.
Incorrect, sir. Majority rule is not how we determine whether
something is true or not. Afterall, if a hundred million people
believed a particular lie was the truth, it would still be a lie. So
if you want to convince us that homosexuality is a peversion, you need
to provide us with some actual evidence to back this up, not just
anecdotes about how lots of people dislike it. That doesn't cut the
mustard at all.
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 08:40:14 PM |
|
|
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
wbt@privacy.net wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:02:46 -0500, "L. Michael Roberts"
<L_Michael_Roberts@nospam.com> wrote:
wbt@privacy.net wrote:
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:35:19 -0500, wrote:
"Maverick" <justgopub...@nomail.com> wrote:
<snip>
What formal training have you had in law?
Do you know the meaning of Issues, Facts, Holding, Held, Ruled,
Ruling,
Dicta?
Let's look at some important things:
LOVING v. VIRGINIA, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=1
[Holding]
Virginia's statutory scheme to prevent marriages between persons
solely on
the basis of racial classifications held to violate the Equal
Protection
and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. Pp. 4-12.
Race/ethnicity is not a behavior.
Neither is homosexuality....
Homosexuality is.
In the same way that heterosexuality is a behaviour?
Heterosexuality is the sexual orientation that all of the world's
societies have accepted as appropriate for marriage. There
have been a few exceptions but not enough to really make a
difference. Homosexual marriage is still not accepted in just a
few points less than 100 percent of the worlds societies.
Are you claiming
that you are only heterosexual while you are having sex? Are you
claiming that while you were still a virgin, you had no idea what
sex
you were oriented to?
No, I'm a heterosexual. Heterosexuality is not a sexual perversion.
Homosexuality is and that's the way the majority of the world's
societies elect to treat it. Take it or leave it; In the end THE
MAJORITY RULES one way or another.
Incorrect, sir. Majority rule is not how we determine whether
something is true or not. Afterall, if a hundred million people
believed a particular lie was the truth, it would still be a lie. So
if you want to convince us that homosexuality is a peversion, you need
to provide us with some actual evidence to back this up, not just
anecdotes about how lots of people dislike it. That doesn't cut the
mustard at all.
Ole Billy girl yearns to have some well hung stud ream his arsehole.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 AM |
|
|
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
wbt@privacy.net wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:02:46 -0500, "L. Michael Roberts"
<L_Michael_Roberts@nospam.com> wrote:
wbt@privacy.net wrote:
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:35:19 -0500, wrote:
"Maverick" <justgopub...@nomail.com> wrote:
<snip>
What formal training have you had in law?
Do you know the meaning of Issues, Facts, Holding, Held, Ruled,
Ruling,
Dicta?
Let's look at some important things:
LOVING v. VIRGINIA, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=1
[Holding]
Virginia's statutory scheme to prevent marriages between persons
solely on
the basis of racial classifications held to violate the Equal
Protection
and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. Pp. 4-12.
Race/ethnicity is not a behavior.
Neither is homosexuality....
Homosexuality is.
In the same way that heterosexuality is a behaviour?
Heterosexuality is the sexual orientation that all of the world's
societies have accepted as appropriate for marriage. There
have been a few exceptions but not enough to really make a
difference. Homosexual marriage is still not accepted in just a
few points less than 100 percent of the worlds societies.
Are you claiming
that you are only heterosexual while you are having sex? Are you
claiming that while you were still a virgin, you had no idea what
sex
you were oriented to?
No, I'm a heterosexual. Heterosexuality is not a sexual perversion.
Homosexuality is and that's the way the majority of the world's
societies elect to treat it. Take it or leave it; In the end THE
MAJORITY RULES one way or another.
Incorrect, sir. Majority rule is not how we determine whether
something is true or not. Afterall, if a hundred million people
believed a particular lie was the truth, it would still be a lie. So
if you want to convince us that homosexuality is a peversion, you need
to provide us with some actual evidence to back this up, not just
anecdotes about how lots of people dislike it. That doesn't cut the
mustard at all.
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nick J." |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
27 Mar 2005 09:31:03 PM |
|
|
wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com>
wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:02:46 -0500, "L. Michael Roberts"
<L_Michael_Roberts@nospam.com> wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:35:19 -0500,
wrote:
"Maverick" <justgopub...@nomail.com> wrote:
<snip>
What formal training have you had in law?
Do you know the meaning of Issues, Facts, Holding, Held, Ruled,
Ruling,
Dicta?
Let's look at some important things:
LOVING v. VIRGINIA, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=1
[Holding]
Virginia's statutory scheme to prevent marriages between
persons
solely on
the basis of racial classifications held to violate the Equal
Protection
and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. Pp. 4-12.
Race/ethnicity is not a behavior.
Neither is homosexuality....
Homosexuality is.
In the same way that heterosexuality is a behaviour?
Heterosexuality is the sexual orientation that all of the world's
societies have accepted as appropriate for marriage. There
have been a few exceptions but not enough to really make a
difference. Homosexual marriage is still not accepted in just a
few points less than 100 percent of the worlds societies.
Are you claiming
that you are only heterosexual while you are having sex? Are you
claiming that while you were still a virgin, you had no idea what
sex
you were oriented to?
No, I'm a heterosexual. Heterosexuality is not a sexual
perversion.
Homosexuality is and that's the way the majority of the world's
societies elect to treat it. Take it or leave it; In the end THE
MAJORITY RULES one way or another.
Incorrect, sir. Majority rule is not how we determine whether
something is true or not. Afterall, if a hundred million people
believed a particular lie was the truth, it would still be a lie.
So
if you want to convince us that homosexuality is a peversion, you
need
to provide us with some actual evidence to back this up, not just
anecdotes about how lots of people dislike it. That doesn't cut the
mustard at all.
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on
that.
Let me make myself more clear, sir. You made a claim that
homosexuality is a perversion. If you want to back your claim up, you
need to provide some tangible evidence that such is actualy the case.
The existence of laws against same-sex marriage does not prove that
homosexuality is a perversion, only that people are currently against
it. There were once similar laws against interacial marriage,
afterall, and that certainly isn't a perversion. If you require a
clue, try bringing some *scientific* evidence to the table to prove
that homosexuality is a perversion, since it is, in essence, a
quasi-scientific claim of yours.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
27 Mar 2005 11:28:47 PM |
|
|
On 27 Mar 2005 13:31:03 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
wbt@privacy.net wrote:
(...)
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on
that.
Let me make myself more clear, sir. You made a claim that
homosexuality is a perversion. If you want to back your claim up, you
need to provide some tangible evidence that such is actualy the case.
The existence of laws against same-sex marriage does not prove that
homosexuality is a perversion, only that people are currently against
it. There were once similar laws against interacial marriage,
afterall, and that certainly isn't a perversion. If you require a
clue, try bringing some *scientific* evidence to the table to prove
that homosexuality is a perversion, since it is, in essence, a
quasi-scientific claim of yours.
I suggest that you do one of two thing, 1) Accept what I say or
2) Not accept it. Which ever one you choose to do makes no fucking
difference to me. Now, have I made myself perfectly clear?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nick J." |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 01:57:37 AM |
|
|
wrote:
On 27 Mar 2005 13:31:03 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com>
wrote:
wrote:
(...)
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit
same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on
that.
Let me make myself more clear, sir. You made a claim that
homosexuality is a perversion. If you want to back your claim up,
you
need to provide some tangible evidence that such is actualy the
case.
The existence of laws against same-sex marriage does not prove that
homosexuality is a perversion, only that people are currently
against
it. There were once similar laws against interacial marriage,
afterall, and that certainly isn't a perversion. If you require a
clue, try bringing some *scientific* evidence to the table to prove
that homosexuality is a perversion, since it is, in essence, a
quasi-scientific claim of yours.
I suggest that you do one of two thing, 1) Accept what I say or
2) Not accept it. Which ever one you choose to do makes no fucking
difference to me. Now, have I made myself perfectly clear?
That you are a troll, and not worth debating? You have certainly made
that clear. I'll wish you a polite good night, then, and discontinue
my involvement in this thread.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 07:01:40 AM |
|
|
On 27 Mar 2005 17:57:37 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
wbt@privacy.net wrote:
On 27 Mar 2005 13:31:03 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com>
wrote:
wbt@privacy.net wrote:
(...)
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit
same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on
that.
Let me make myself more clear, sir. You made a claim that
homosexuality is a perversion. If you want to back your claim up,
you
need to provide some tangible evidence that such is actualy the
case.
The existence of laws against same-sex marriage does not prove that
homosexuality is a perversion, only that people are currently
against
it. There were once similar laws against interacial marriage,
afterall, and that certainly isn't a perversion. If you require a
clue, try bringing some *scientific* evidence to the table to prove
that homosexuality is a perversion, since it is, in essence, a
quasi-scientific claim of yours.
I suggest that you do one of two thing, 1) Accept what I say or
2) Not accept it. Which ever one you choose to do makes no fucking
difference to me. Now, have I made myself perfectly clear?
That you are a troll, and not worth debating? You have certainly made
that clear. I'll wish you a polite good night, then, and discontinue
my involvement in this thread.
Ok.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
27 Mar 2005 06:49:09 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
The "Bill of Rights" doesn't exist? Well, maybe not in your universe.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
27 Mar 2005 11:22:59 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:49:09 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
The "Bill of Rights" doesn't exist? Well, maybe not in your universe.
The intent of the Bill of Rights was never to allow a whining minority
to over rule the logic of a rational majority.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jeanne Deckers" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 02:37:34 AM |
|
|
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:49:09 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
The "Bill of Rights" doesn't exist? Well, maybe not in your universe.
The intent of the Bill of Rights was never to allow a whining minority
to over rule the logic of a rational majority.
Again, similiar arguements were used against women's rights, interracial
marriage, and civil rights for black americans
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
--
"We hope God will welcome us. He saw us suffer."
Jeanne Decker and her lover,Annie Pecher
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 07:11:12 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:37:34 GMT, Jeanne Deckers
<deckersj@Lesbian.Singing.Nun.bg> wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:49:09 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
The "Bill of Rights" doesn't exist? Well, maybe not in your universe.
The intent of the Bill of Rights was never to allow a whining minority
to over rule the logic of a rational majority.
Again, similiar arguements were used against women's rights, interracial
marriage, and civil rights for black americans
None of whom could change the condition they found themselves in.
People of a race or sex are born that way. No one has EVER proved that
homosexuals "are born that way." Consequently homosexuals are
demanding rights and privileges based on nothing more than their
perverted sexual orientation, their behavior.
***
Gay-To-Straight Research Published In APA Journal
The American Psychological Association's prestigious journal
Professional Psychology: Research and Practice has just published a
comprehensive research paper on sexual-orientation change. Clients
have the right to pursue change, the author says, because "sexual
orientation, once thought to be an unchanging trait, is actually quite
flexible for some people."
An article by Dr. Warren Throckmorton, "Initial Empirical and Clinical
Findings Concerning the Change Process for Ex-Gays," has been
published in the June 2002 issue of the American Psychological
Association's publication Professional Psychology: Research and
Practice.
"I'm pleased that this research summary will reach an audience of
psychologists and mental health professionals that may not be aware of
ex-gay issues," says Throckmorton, the director of college counseling
at Grove City College.
"My literature review contradicts the policies of major mental health
organizations because it suggests that sexual orientation, once
thought to be an unchanging sexual trait, is actually quite flexible
for many people, changing as a result of therapy for some, ministry
for others and spontaneously for still others."
In professional circles, the debate over the development of sexual
orientation centers around two viewpoints. The more prevalent of
these, known as the essentialist view, argues that sexual orientation
is innate, "in-born," and therefore not subject to change. The APA has
supported this view, and therefore has influenced the approach many
mental-health practitioners currently take.
The second, and less accepted viewpoint, known as the contructionist
perspective, posits that sexual orientation is a socially-constructed
product of a client's life experiences and can therefore be modified;
people who modify orientation through counseling are known as
"ex-gays." Throckmorton's research presents data consistent with this
latter view.
"The APA's professionalism in handling this research is commendable
and I think it demonstrates the APA's willingness to explore all sides
of this important matter," Throckmorton said.
His analysis gathers previous studies of individuals who sought to
change their sexual orientation. A majority of those responding to
surveys of former gays indicate their experiences were positive and
helpful.
This finding is in contrast to claims from some mental health
professionals that efforts to change are always harmful.
Frequently religion played a major role in motivating a client to seek
reorientation, Throckmorton notes, a fact that leads him to caution
mental health professionals against assuming that the profession fully
understands the potential and limitation for human change. "For years,
public and professional opinion of ex-gay ministries have been
influenced by anecdotes from persons not helped by these ministries,"
he said. "Basing opinions on the experience of only those who have not
been helped gives an incomplete and therefore inaccurate picture of
the
potential for alteration of human sexual identity."
Throckmorton's article summarizes the experiences of thousands of
individuals who believe their sexuality has changed as a result of
reorientation ministries and counseling.
Throckmorton's article is a continuation of a paper presented at the
American Psychological Association conference, Washington, DC, in
August 2000 in a standing-room-only symposium, entitled "Gays, Ex-Gays
and Ex-Ex Gays--Examining Key Religious Ethical and Diversity Issues."
The article adds additional current research and adds recommendations
for mental health professionals.
The final recommendation in Throckmorton's list states, "Practitioners
should not refuse service to clients who pursue an ex-gay course, but
rather, should respect the diversity of choice and consider a referral
to an ex-gay ministry or practitioner."
In addition to serving as Grove City College's director of college
counseling, Dr. Throckmorton is an associate professor of psychology
at the college. A past president of the American Mental Health
Counselor's Association, he also holds membership on the Magellan
Behavioral Healthcare's National Provider Advisory Board representing
licensed professional counselors. In 1998, he received the George E.
Hill Distinguished Alumni Award from the faculty of Ohio University's
Counselor Education Program. He earned a B.A. from Cedarville College,
an M.A. from Central Michigan University and Ph.D. from Ohio
University.
For more information, email Dr. Warren Throckmorton at
ewthrockmorton@gcc.edu.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jeanne Deckers" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 01:57:06 PM |
|
|
wrote:
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:37:34 GMT, Jeanne Deckers
<deckersj@Lesbian.Singing.Nun.bg> wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:49:09 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
The "Bill of Rights" doesn't exist? Well, maybe not in your universe.
The intent of the Bill of Rights was never to allow a whining minority
to over rule the logic of a rational majority.
Again, similiar arguements were used against women's rights, interracial
marriage, and civil rights for black americans
None of whom could change the condition they found themselves in.
People of a race or sex are born that way. No one has EVER proved that
homosexuals "are born that way." Consequently homosexuals are
demanding rights and privileges based on nothing more than their
perverted sexual orientation, their behavior.
***
Gay-To-Straight Research Published In APA Journal
The American Psychological Association's prestigious journal
Professional Psychology: Research and Practice has just published a
comprehensive research paper on sexual-orientation change. Clients
have the right to pursue change, the author says, because "sexual
orientation, once thought to be an unchanging trait, is actually quite
flexible for some people."
An article by Dr. Warren Throckmorton, "Initial Empirical and Clinical
Findings Concerning the Change Process for Ex-Gays," has been
published in the June 2002 issue of the American Psychological
Association's publication Professional Psychology: Research and
Practice.
"I'm pleased that this research summary will reach an audience of
psychologists and mental health professionals that may not be aware of
ex-gay issues," says Throckmorton, the director of college counseling
at Grove City College.
Throckmorton is a minor school counsellor at a christian college.
Grove City was in some kind of trouble with the Fed a few years back
This was a lit review, not a comprehensive study.
Both APA's remain convinced that most homosexuality cannot be changed,
and the ex-gay follow ups, with only a 3% sustained
heterosexuality"conversion" supports that. Also, the suicide rate of
reparative therapy is unacceptably high.
"We hope God will welcome us. He saw us suffer."
Jeanne Decker and her lover,Annie Pecher
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 10:10:39 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:11:12 GMT, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:37:34 GMT, Jeanne Deckers
<deckersj@Lesbian.Singing.Nun.bg> wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:49:09 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
The "Bill of Rights" doesn't exist? Well, maybe not in your universe.
The intent of the Bill of Rights was never to allow a whining minority
to over rule the logic of a rational majority.
Again, similiar arguements were used against women's rights, interracial
marriage, and civil rights for black americans
None of whom could change the condition they found themselves in.
People of a race or sex are born that way. No one has EVER proved that
homosexuals "are born that way."
That is also irrelevant. The members of the various religious sects
were also not "born that way", yet they are fully protected by the
Bill of Rights.
Consequently homosexuals are
demanding rights and privileges based on nothing more than their
perverted sexual orientation, their behavior.
They are demanding the rights of US citizens based on nothing more
than the fact that they are US citizens.
The perversion label is based on nothing more than your personal
bigotry. There is no objective basis for it; you could at least be
honest about that.
snip
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "ward stewart" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 02:18:36 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:22:59 -1000, wrote
(in article <ifge4111vmkkv2p6gcl0f1b4btkjb286ok@4ax.com>):
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:49:09 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
The "Bill of Rights" doesn't exist? Well, maybe not in your universe.
The intent of the Bill of Rights was never to allow a whining minority
to over rule the logic of a rational majority.
Absent the nasty little adjectives, that is JUST EXACTLY what the BOR was
designed to do. Civics ONE
ward
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 06:59:51 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:18:36 GMT, ward stewart <wardstewart@mac.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:22:59 -1000, wrote
(in article <ifge4111vmkkv2p6gcl0f1b4btkjb286ok@4ax.com>):
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:49:09 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
The "Bill of Rights" doesn't exist? Well, maybe not in your universe.
The intent of the Bill of Rights was never to allow a whining minority
to over rule the logic of a rational majority.
Absent the nasty little adjectives, that is JUST EXACTLY what the BOR was
designed to do. Civics ONE
Only in the mind of a homosexual. Reality!
ward
.
|
|
|
| User: "Choose God!!!" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 07:19:57 AM |
|
|
<wbt@privacy.net> wrote
Only in the mind of a homosexual. Reality!
Sinner! Abortionist! Performer of anal sex acts!
The only "Reality" that homosexuality offers is the
reality of Hell, the reality of everlasting torment
along side thieves, murderers & supporters of
national healthcare.
REPENT!
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Tim McGaughy" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
31 Mar 2005 10:53:19 PM |
|
|
wrote:
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:18:36 GMT, ward stewart <wardstewart@mac.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:22:59 -1000, wrote
(in article <ifge4111vmkkv2p6gcl0f1b4btkjb286ok@4ax.com>):
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:49:09 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
The "Bill of Rights" doesn't exist? Well, maybe not in your universe.
The intent of the Bill of Rights was never to allow a whining minority
to over rule the logic of a rational majority.
Absent the nasty little adjectives, that is JUST EXACTLY what the BOR was
designed to do. Civics ONE
Only in the mind of a homosexual. Reality!
Yer an idiot.
If the founders of this country really intended the majority to rule in
every instance, they really didn't need the supreme court, two separate
legislative houses, or a president. They could simply have assumed that
if a majority in a single legislative house wanted something passed,
then it must be right. They certainly wouldn't have need a bill of
rights to explicitly spell things out.
But they realized something that you apparently do not: Democracy is
three lions and a gazelle deciding what is for lunch.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 05:48:41 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:22:59 GMT, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:49:09 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
The "Bill of Rights" doesn't exist? Well, maybe not in your universe.
The intent of the Bill of Rights was never to allow a whining minority
to over rule the logic of a rational majority.
Which has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Minorities are
protected by law against majorities. If you had any sense, you would
be grateful for that protection. Everybody is a member of some
minority, which is why the majority established that protection.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 07:16:25 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:48:41 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:22:59 GMT, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:49:09 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, wrote:
On 26 Mar 2005 01:19:06 -0800, "Nick J." <NICK0094@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
There are 49 states and 3 territories in the US that prohibit same
sex marriage. The majority rules. You can bet your rent money on that.
The "Bill of Rights" doesn't exist? Well, maybe not in your universe.
The intent of the Bill of Rights was never to allow a whining minority
to over rule the logic of a rational majority.
Which has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Minorities are
protected by law against majorities. If you had any sense, you would
be grateful for that protection. Everybody is a member of some
minority, which is why the majority established that protection.
It has EVERYTHING to do with the issue at hand. The PEOPLE by a
MAJORITY vote for their duly elected representatives determine what
laws they will live under. If their representatives fail to serve them
in their consensus then the people take the matter into their own
hands in the form of a referendum. Initially the good people of Hawaii
and Alaska for instance. And more recently the eleven states that
voted to change their State's Constitution to prevent SSM. All
logical, rational and legal action by the MAJORITY to stop being
trampled on by a "flaming minority."
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
|
|
|
| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: Calif. can't ban gay marriage |
28 Mar 2005 10:10:40 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:16:25 GMT, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:48:41 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:22:59 GMT, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:49:09 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:14:04 GMT, | | | | | | | | | | |
