Religions > Atheism > Re: Church, State, Prayer, & The Pledge: The REAL Solution!
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Arne Langsetmo" |
| Date: |
29 Oct 2003 07:34:56 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Church, State, Prayer, & The Pledge: The REAL Solution! |
core_dump wrote:
Many of us complain about the lack of values in our society, and
recently with the values in our schools, as the Supreme Court prepares
to make a decision about the constitutionality of the Pledge of
Allegiance. But many forget about the REAL issue...
The public school system itself! The public school system is
unconstitutional, and the public school system violates "separation of
church and state." Here's why.
A form of morality must always be taught, or there would be complete
chaos. If a child disrupts the classroom (no LAWS against
that), he or she usually receives a detention or in-school suspension.
It is impossible to have a school without some form of morality.
Morality is a form of or complement to religion. In the public school
system's case, it's the secular humanist religion.
Elementary mistake, my dear Watson: You assume that religions
hold the patent on morality. Simply not true. Almost as bad
a mistake as thinking that religions are the only competent
arbiters of scientific issues (a mistake that the churches
were/are slow to acknowledge having made, and which has hurt
them).
Yes, there need to be rules in school (duh), but that in
no way makes these rules religious ones (ever heard the
phrase "valid secular purpose"?). Just as there need to
ne "rules" in civil society (i.e., laws) to keep it running
smoothly. Your argument here would just as much require
that governments run their countries in a religious fashion.
But this is something that the Founding Fathers rejected,
and which they thought entirely unnecessary.
And a FWIW: there is no religion of secular humanism.
[snip further confusion]
Cheers,
-- Arne Langsetmo
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| User: "Brian Quincy Hutchings" |
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| Title: Re: Church, State, Prayer, & The Pledge: The REAL Solution! |
31 Oct 2003 12:30:39 AM |
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I agree with the other two responders. now,
the "elementary mistake" is that there's a constitutional "separation
of church & state;" rather,
we do not have a state church, like England (and most parliamentary or
"constiutional <'oh, but it's unwritten'> monarchy" systems).
the doctrine of Justice Hugo Black's opinion is just that.
used to be a KKK guy, as well. look it up with LaRouche.
Arne Langsetmo <zuch@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<3FA06A83.84AF3167@ix.netcom.com>...
unconstitutional, and the public school system violates "separation of
church and state." Here's why.
Elementary mistake, my dear Watson: You assume that religions
hold the patent on morality. Simply not true. Almost as bad
And a FWIW: there is no religion of secular humanism.
--les Dicks d'Enron!
http://www.benfranklinbooks.com/20th-century.htm
http://larouchepub.com/pr/2003/031014cheney_mewar.html
http://larouchepub.com/other/2003/3041shultz_arnie.html
http://larouchepub.com/other/2003/3040cheney_pirates.html
http://larouchepub.com/other/2003/3039cheney_out.html
http://www.wlym.com/covers/7411contents.png
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Church, State, Prayer, & The Pledge: The REAL Solution! |
31 Oct 2003 07:21:27 AM |
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(Brian Quincy Hutchings) wrote:
:|I agree with the other two responders. now,
:|the "elementary mistake" is that there's a constitutional "separation
:|of church & state;"
The following says and shows you are incorrect:
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
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| User: "Brian Quincy Hutchings" |
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| Title: Re: Church, State, Prayer, & The Pledge: The REAL Solution! |
12 Nov 2003 04:40:51 PM |
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"Christianity is now nearly two thousand years old. However, a
Christian form of society, is slightly more than five hundred years
old, dating from the establishment of the first approximation of a
modern sovereign nation-state, that of France under King Louis XI
(1461-1483). ... No political form of society, prior to the great
ecumenical Council of Florence, the origin of Louis XI's recreated
France, can be fairly described as Christian; ..."
http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/contents.htm#louisxi
buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote in message news:<feo4qv0bdb5t0034a0gqhm1lsln6vrmrud@4ax.com>...
:|the "elementary mistake" is that there's a constitutional "separation
:|of church & state;"
The following says and shows you are incorrect:
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
--Trickier ***** Cheney's cover-up!
http://larouchepub.com/pr/2003/031108timeline_ssci.html
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| User: "Dave Thompson" |
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| Title: Re: Church, State, Prayer, & The Pledge: The REAL Solution! |
13 Nov 2003 12:37:54 PM |
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"Brian Quincy Hutchings" <QncyMI@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:bde404c9.0311121440.42665c@posting.google.com...
"Christianity is now nearly two thousand years old. However, a
Christian form of society, is slightly more than five hundred years
old, dating from the establishment of the first approximation of a
modern sovereign nation-state, that of France under King Louis XI
(1461-1483). ... No political form of society, prior to the great
ecumenical Council of Florence, the origin of Louis XI's recreated
France, can be fairly described as Christian; ..."
http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/contents.htm#louisxi
The Vatican, Rome, The Empire under Constantine.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Church, State, Prayer, & The Pledge: The REAL Solution! |
12 Nov 2003 08:43:11 PM |
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On 12 Nov 2003 14:40:51 -0800, (Brian Quincy
Hutchings) posted in alt.atheism:
"Christianity is now nearly two thousand years old. However, a
Christian form of society, is slightly more than five hundred years
old, dating from the establishment of the first approximation of a
modern sovereign nation-state, that of France under King Louis XI
(1461-1483). ... No political form of society, prior to the great
ecumenical Council of Florence, the origin of Louis XI's recreated
France, can be fairly described as Christian; ..."
http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/contents.htm#louisxi
How soon they forget Constantine.
--
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my
contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him, the
spinal cord would fully suffice."
- Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: Church, State, Prayer, & The Pledge: The REAL Solution! |
12 Nov 2003 09:08:07 PM |
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On 12 Nov 2003,,
(Brian Quincy Hutchings) posted in alt.atheism:
"Christianity is now nearly two thousand years old. However, a
Christian form of society, is slightly more than five hundred years
old, dating from the establishment of the first approximation of a
modern sovereign nation-state, that of France under King Louis XI
(1461-1483). ... No political form of society, prior to the great
ecumenical Council of Florence, the origin of Louis XI's recreated
France, can be fairly described as Christian; ..."
http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/contents.htm#louisxi
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:43:11 -0600, Al Klein wrote
(in message <etr5rvg3k66rgg1i20if65krvdj6ak4knu@Pern.rk>):
How soon they forget Constantine.
Well, if you're going by what Jesus actually said, there has never been a
state that has been "a Christian form of society".
Of course, if ya go by what Saint Paul the Latent wrote . . .
Gray Shockley
-----------------------------------------
Saint Paul certainly seemed to
believe in loving his fellow man.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Church, State, Prayer, & The Pledge: The REAL Solution! |
31 Oct 2003 01:19:07 AM |
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On 30 Oct 2003, Brian Quincy Hutchings wrote:
I agree with the other two responders.
That is a bit vague. Please give us a clue to whom you refer.
<< now, the "elementary mistake" is that there's a constitutional "separation
of church & state;">>
Take that up with the Supreme Court.
<< rather, we do not have a state church, like England (and most parliamentary or "constiutional <'oh, but it's unwritten'> monarchy" systems). the doctrine of Justice Hugo Black's opinion is just that. used to be a KKK guy, as well. look it up with LaRouche.>>
-----------excerpt------------------
MYTH: The First Amendment's religion clauses were intended only to prevent
the establishment of a national church.
FACT: If all the framers wanted to do was ban a national church, they had
plenty of opportunities to state exactly that in the First Amendment. In
fact, an early draft of the First Amendment read in part, "The civil
rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief, nor shall
any national religion be established...." This draft was rejected.
Following extensive debate, the language found in the First Amendment
today was settled on.
The historical record indicates that the framers wanted the First
Amendment to ban not only establishment of a single church but also
"multiple establishments," that is, a system by which the government funds
many religions on an equal basis.
A good overview of the development of the language of the First Amendment
is found in scholar John M. Swomley's 1987 book Religious Liberty and the
Secular State. Swomley shows that during the House of Representatives'
debate on the language of the religion clauses, members specifically
rejected a version reading, "Congress shall make no law establishing any
particular denomination in preference to another...." The founders wanted
to bar all religious establishments; they left no room for
"non-preferentialism," the view touted by today's accommodationists that
government can aid religion as long as it assists all religions equally.
(The Senate likewise rejected three versions of the First Amendment that
would have permitted non-preferential support for religion.)
MYTH: The First Amendment was intended to keep the state from interfering
with the church, not to bar religious groups from co-opting the
government.
FACT: Jefferson and Madison held an expansive view of the First Amendment,
arguing that church-state separation would protect both religion and
government.
Madison specifically feared that a small group of powerful churches would
join together and seek establishment or special favors from the
government. To prevent this from happening, Madison spoke of the
desirability of a "multiplicity of sects" that would guard against
government favoritism.
Jefferson and Madison did not see church-state separation as an "either
or" proposition or argue that one institution needed greater protection
than the other. As historian Garry Wills points out in his 1990 book Under
God, Jefferson believed that no worthy religion would seek the power of
the state to coerce belief. In his notes he argued that disestablishment
would strengthen religion, holding that it would "oblige its ministers to
be industrious [and] exemplary." The state likewise was degraded by an
established faith, Jefferson asserted, because establishment made it a
partner in a system based on bribery of religion.
Madison also argued that establishment was no friend to religion or the
state. He insisted that civil society would be hindered by establishment,
charging that attempts to enforce religious belief by law would weaken
government. In his 1785 Memorial and Remonstrance, Madison stated flatly
that "Religion is not helped by establishment, but is hurt by it."
MYTH: Separation of church and state is not in the U.S. Constitution.
FACT: It is true that the literal phrase "separation of church and state"
does not appear in the Constitution, but that does not mean the concept
isn't there. The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof...."
What does that mean? A little history is helpful: In an 1802 letter to the
Danbury (Conn.) Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson, then president,
declared that the American people through the First Amendment had erected
a "wall of separation between church and state." (Colonial religious
liberty pioneer Roger Williams used a similar phrase 150 years earlier.)
Jefferson, however, was not the only leading figure of the
post-revolutionary period to use the term separation. James Madison,
considered to be the Father of the Constitution, said in an 1819 letter,
"[T]he number, the industry and the morality of the priesthood, and the
devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total
separation of the church and state." In an earlier, undated essay
(probably early 1800s), Madison wrote, "Strongly guarded...is the
separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the
United States."
As eminent church-state scholar Leo Pfeffer notes in his book, Church,
State and Freedom, "It is true, of course, that the phrase 'separation of
church and state' does not appear in the Constitution. But it was
inevitable that some convenient term should come into existence to
verbalize a principle so clearly and widely held by the American
people....[T]he right to a fair trial is generally accepted to be a
constitutional principle; yet the term 'fair trial' is not found in the
Constitution. To bring the point even closer home, who would deny that
'religious liberty' is a constitutional principle? Yet that phrase too is
not in the Constitution. The universal acceptance which all these terms,
including 'separation of church and state,' have received in America would
seem to confirm rather than disparage their reality as basic American
democratic principles."
Thus, it is entirely appropriate to speak of the "constitutional principle
of church-state separation" since that phrase summarizes what the First
Amendment's religion clauses do-they separate church and state.
~~~~~~~~~~end of excerpt~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
thanks to Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://www.au.org/myths.htm
.
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| User: "M. Clark" |
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| Title: Re: Church, State, Prayer, & The Pledge: The REAL Solution! |
31 Oct 2003 01:57:41 PM |
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Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
On 30 Oct 2003, Brian Quincy Hutchings wrote:
I agree with the other two responders.
That is a bit vague. Please give us a clue to whom you refer.
<< now, the "elementary mistake" is that there's a constitutional "separation
of church & state;">>
Take that up with the Supreme Court.
The only reason that you're always putting the Supreme Court on a
pedstal is because the Court's unconstitutional interpretation of the
Constitution is "cheating" people in favor of the atheists.
M. Clark
<< rather, we do not have a state church, like England (and most
parliamentary or "constiutional <'oh, but it's unwritten'> monarchy"
systems). the doctrine of Justice Hugo Black's opinion is just that.
used to be a KKK guy, as well. look it up with LaRouche.>>
-----------excerpt------------------
MYTH: The First Amendment's religion clauses were intended only to prevent
the establishment of a national church.
FACT: If all the framers wanted to do was ban a national church, they had
plenty of opportunities to state exactly that in the First Amendment. In
fact, an early draft of the First Amendment read in part, "The civil
rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief, nor shall
any national religion be established...." This draft was rejected.
Following extensive debate, the language found in the First Amendment
today was settled on.
The historical record indicates that the framers wanted the First
Amendment to ban not only establishment of a single church but also
"multiple establishments," that is, a system by which the government funds
many religions on an equal basis.
A good overview of the development of the language of the First Amendment
is found in scholar John M. Swomley's 1987 book Religious Liberty and the
Secular State. Swomley shows that during the House of Representatives'
debate on the language of the religion clauses, members specifically
rejected a version reading, "Congress shall make no law establishing any
particular denomination in preference to another...." The founders wanted
to bar all religious establishments; they left no room for
"non-preferentialism," the view touted by today's accommodationists that
government can aid religion as long as it assists all religions equally.
(The Senate likewise rejected three versions of the First Amendment that
would have permitted non-preferential support for religion.)
MYTH: The First Amendment was intended to keep the state from interfering
with the church, not to bar religious groups from co-opting the
government.
FACT: Jefferson and Madison held an expansive view of the First Amendment,
arguing that church-state separation would protect both religion and
government.
Madison specifically feared that a small group of powerful churches would
join together and seek establishment or special favors from the
government. To prevent this from happening, Madison spoke of the
desirability of a "multiplicity of sects" that would guard against
government favoritism.
Jefferson and Madison did not see church-state separation as an "either
or" proposition or argue that one institution needed greater protection
than the other. As historian Garry Wills points out in his 1990 book Under
God, Jefferson believed that no worthy religion would seek the power of
the state to coerce belief. In his notes he argued that disestablishment
would strengthen religion, holding that it would "oblige its ministers to
be industrious [and] exemplary." The state likewise was degraded by an
established faith, Jefferson asserted, because establishment made it a
partner in a system based on bribery of religion.
Madison also argued that establishment was no friend to religion or the
state. He insisted that civil society would be hindered by establishment,
charging that attempts to enforce religious belief by law would weaken
government. In his 1785 Memorial and Remonstrance, Madison stated flatly
that "Religion is not helped by establishment, but is hurt by it."
MYTH: Separation of church and state is not in the U.S. Constitution.
FACT: It is true that the literal phrase "separation of church and state"
does not appear in the Constitution, but that does not mean the concept
isn't there. The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof...."
What does that mean? A little history is helpful: In an 1802 letter to the
Danbury (Conn.) Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson, then president,
declared that the American people through the First Amendment had erected
a "wall of separation between church and state." (Colonial religious
liberty pioneer Roger Williams used a similar phrase 150 years earlier.)
Jefferson, however, was not the only leading figure of the
post-revolutionary period to use the term separation. James Madison,
considered to be the Father of the Constitution, said in an 1819 letter,
"[T]he number, the industry and the morality of the priesthood, and the
devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total
separation of the church and state." In an earlier, undated essay
(probably early 1800s), Madison wrote, "Strongly guarded...is the
separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the
United States."
As eminent church-state scholar Leo Pfeffer notes in his book, Church,
State and Freedom, "It is true, of course, that the phrase 'separation of
church and state' does not appear in the Constitution. But it was
inevitable that some convenient term should come into existence to
verbalize a principle so clearly and widely held by the American
people....[T]he right to a fair trial is generally accepted to be a
constitutional principle; yet the term 'fair trial' is not found in the
Constitution. To bring the point even closer home, who would deny that
'religious liberty' is a constitutional principle? Yet that phrase too is
not in the Constitution. The universal acceptance which all these terms,
including 'separation of church and state,' have received in America would
seem to confirm rather than disparage their reality as basic American
democratic principles."
Thus, it is entirely appropriate to speak of the "constitutional principle
of church-state separation" since that phrase summarizes what the First
Amendment's religion clauses do-they separate church and state.
~~~~~~~~~~end of excerpt~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
thanks to Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://www.au.org/myths.htm
.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: SCOTUS "cheating" people in favor of athists; was: Church, State, Prayer, & The Pledge: The REAL Solution! |
31 Oct 2003 05:11:15 PM |
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On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, THE COMEDIAN M. Clark wrote:
cs: > > Take that up with the Supreme Court.
The only reason that you're always putting the Supreme Court on a
pedstal is because the Court's unconstitutional interpretation of the
Constitution is "cheating" people in favor of the atheists.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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