Religions > Atheism > Re: cpt banjo brings up a good point concerning using taxpayer money to pay for religious things
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
05 Dec 2005 04:28:18 AM |
| Object: |
Re: cpt banjo brings up a good point concerning using taxpayer money to pay for religious things |
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|But also note Jefferson's remark concerning religious instruction in
:|public schools:
:|
:|"Thus we have teachers of languages, teachers of mathematics, of
:|natural philosophy, of chemistry, of medicine, of law, of history, of
:|government, etc. Religion, too, is a separate department, and happens
:|to be the only one deemed requisite for all men, however high or low."
:|-- Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
Ahhh you are such a phony, lying, dishonest, unethical, fu*king fraud
**********************************************************************************
Thomas Jefferson: The Sphere of Religion
Thomas Jefferson believed firmly in the separation of church and state. In
his Notes on the State of Virginia, he had warned against the interference
of the state in matters of religious belief. "Our rulers can have authority
over such natural rights, only as we have submitted to them," he wrote in
1783. "The rights of conscience we never submitted. . . . We are answerable
for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such
acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my
neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god." In the following letter
to P. H. Wendover, written on March 13, 1815, Jefferson examined the other
side of the matter declaring that the interference of the church in affairs
of state, under the guise of political sermons, is equally menacing.
http://www.search.eb.com/elections/pri/Q00074.html
**********************************************************************************
Religion Intermeddling in Government
"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their
congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical
affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct
of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their
audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving
them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather
seek from better sources in that particular art of science." --Thomas
Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281
"Ministers of the Gospel are excluded [from serving as Visitors of the
county Elementary Schools] to avoid jealousy from the other sects, were the
public education committed to the ministers of a particular one; and with
more reason than in the case of their exclusion from the legislative and
executive functions." --Thomas Jefferson: Note to Elementary School Act,
1817. ME 17:419
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any
religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary School Act,
1817. ME 17:425
"I do not know that it is a duty to disturb by missionaries the religion
and peace of other countries, who may think themselves bound to extinguish
by fire and fagot the heresies to which we give the name of conversions,
and quote our own example for it. Were the Pope, or his holy allies, to
send in mission to us some thousands of Jesuit priests to convert us to
their orthodoxy, I suspect that we should deem and treat it as a national
aggression on our peace and faith." --Thomas Jefferson to Michael Megear,
1823. ME 15:434
***********************************************************************************
"This doctrine ['that the condition of man cannot be ameliorated, that what
has been must ever be, and that to secure ourselves where we are we must
tread with awful reverence in the footsteps of our fathers'] is the genuine
fruit of the alliance between Church and State, the tenants of which
finding themselves but too well in their present condition, oppose all
advances which might unmask their usurpations and monopolies of honors,
wealth and power, and fear every change as endangering the comforts they
now hold." --Thomas Jefferson: Report for University of Virginia, 1818.
******************************************************************************************
Jefferson on Religion in School
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.democrats.d/msg/c0af6176d6e8f5bd?hl=en&
buckeye-ELO
Mar 24 2004, 2:27 pm
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.constitution, alt.education,
alt.politics.religion, alt.politics.bush, alt.politics.democrats.d,
alt.politics.usa.republican, alt.society.liberalism
From: - Find messages by this author
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 14:27:27 -0500
Local: Wed, Mar 24 2004 2:27 pm
Subject: Re: Jefferson on Religion in School
writing...@yahoo.com (K C) wrote:
:|Jefferson wrote a letter to Thomas Cooper, explaining a recent
:|decision by the UV board about allowing religion on campus. Now, you
:|will note it is a college, but the important point is that Jefferson
:|thought it was a church-state issue. Consider his solution...
Consider Mr. Troll, Jefferson's full position on religion in Schools:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
[one excerpt]
In matters of education, however, Jefferson was a complete secularist,
never deviating in any significant degree.
In 1778 he submitted, in a Bill for the More General Diffusion of
Knowledge, a comprehensive plan for public education at the primary and
secondary levels.(16)
16. Boyd, II, 526-535.
Religious instruction was completely absent from the proposed curriculum at
a time when it was a prominent feature in schools everywhere else. The
omission was deliberate;
[end of that excerpt]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jefferson wrote in his Notes on the State of Virginia:
1782-1787
NOTES ON VIRGINIA
QUERY XIV
The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
Laws?
To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
[pp 236-237]
Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
order will be laid here. Instead, therefore, of putting the Bible and
Testament into the hands of the children at an age when their judgments are
not sufficiently matured for religious inquiries, their memories may here
be stored with the most useful facts from Grecian, Roman, European and
American history. . .
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia. The Life and
Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson, edited by Adrienne Koch and William
Peden. Random House, New York, (1993) pp 243-246)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
[another excerpt]
Religion was also conspicuous by its absence from Jefferson's plan of 1817;
his Bill for Establishing a System of Public Education enumerated only
secular subjects. In an effort to eliminate possible religious influence in
the public schools, Jefferson specified that ministers should not serve as
"visitors" or supervisors, and provided that "no religious reading,
instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practised" in violation of
the tenets of any sect or denomination.(18)
18. Lipscomb, XVII, 425.
Clearly, Jefferson opposed the use of public funds for the teaching of
religion in the public schools.
[end of that excerpt]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[DID] Thomas Jefferson supported Bible reading in school; this is proven by
his service as the first president of the Washington, D.C. public schools,
which used the Bible and Watt's Hymns as textbooks for reading.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg6.htm
Another Jefferson Quote Debunked
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jefschl1.htm
79. A Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge (1778)
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jefflaw1.htm
80. A Bill for Amending the Constitution of the College of William and
Mary, and Substituting More Certain Revenues for Its Support (1779)
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jefflaw2.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
[another excerpt]
In 1818, for instance, his academic plan for the newly authorized
state university included ten professorships and thirty-four subjects, none
of them relating to religion. This curriculum, which was adopted, was laid
out in a report, written by Jefferson as chairman of the commissioners for
the University of Virginia, which stated: "In conformity with the
principles of our Constitution, which places all sects of religion on an
equal footing... we have proposed no professor of divinity ... Proceeding
thus far without offence to the Constitution, we have thought it proper at
this point to leave every sect to provide, as they think fittest, the means
of further instruction in their own peculiar tenets." The report also
stated: "It is supposed probable, that a building ... may be called for in
time, in which may be rooms for religious worship ... for public
examinations, for a library."(23) The very conditional phrasing of this
sentence suggests that Jefferson was seeking to fend off an anticipated
barrage of criticism against the university as a "godless" institution. In
fact he was under constant pressure from church groups to make suitable
provision for theological training and religious worship at the university.
The "supposed probable" room which might in time be a place for worship was
a concession to those, who, as Jefferson reported in a letter to Dr. Thomas
Cooper, used the absence of a professorship of divinity to spread the idea
that the university was "not merely of no religion, but against all
religion."(24)
[end excerpt]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
finally
Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
as a whole
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Last but not least"
Historical Data Against "Vouchers"
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/vouchist.htm
This latter contains letters etc from Jefferson on the matter of religion
at UVA.
:|
:|"In our university you know there is no Professorship of Divinity. A
:|handle has been made of this, to disseminate an idea that this is an
:|institution, not merely of no religion, but against all religion.
:|Occasion was taken at the last meeting of the Visitors, to bring
:|forward an idea that might silence this calumny, which weighed on the
:|minds of some honest friends to the institution. In our annual report
:|to the legislature, after stating the constitutional reasons against a
:|public establishment of any religious instruction, we suggest the
:|expediency of encouraging the different religious sects to establish,
:|each for itself, a professorship of their own tenets, on the confines
:|of the university, so near as that their students may attend the
:|lectures there, and have the free use of our library, and every other
:|accommodation we can give them; preserving, however, their
:|independence of us and of each other. This fills the chasm objected to
:|ours, as a defect in an institution professing to give instruction in
:|all useful sciences. I think the invitation will be accepted, by some
:|sects from candid intentions, and by others from jealousy and
:|rivalship. And by bringing the sects together, and mixing them with
:|the mass of other students, we shall soften their asperities,
:|liberalize and neutralize their prejudices, and make the general
:|religion a religion of peace, reason, and morality."
:|
:|Thus, equal access to all religious groups in the public square.
:|According to this policy that UV approved, these religious leaders on
:|the school grounds were to be given official funds for utilities and
:|supplies as well as rooms to teach in. This rule actually goes
:|further than current religious requests in that it wasn't just
:|religion being given government consideration. It was a specific
:|denominational figure (from each religion) being given recognition and
:|support.
One of these days you will actually realize that events have context. When
seen in context your position has no merit which is why you never supply
all the information or the context of the information snippets you do
provide.
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
| User: "Gray Shockley" |
|
| Title: Jefferson Against Teaching creationism/"intelligent" design? [was: cpt banjo brings up a good point concerning using taxpayer money to pay for religious things" |
05 Dec 2005 03:43:29 PM |
|
|
lowered himself
to address John Knight, Junior:
Ahhh you are such a phony, lying, dishonest, unethical, fu*king fraud
But this, below the dashed line, is interesting
and I wouldn't have read it without DeadHeadFred,
the spiritual heir of John "ScatBoy" Knight:
----------------------------------------
"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their
congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on
chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the
characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of
contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which
they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did
not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in
that particular art of science."
--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281
<http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm>
Gray Shockley
--------------------
Flatter Jesus or He'll
Torture you in Hell!
- Mrs Betty Bowers
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson Against Teaching creationism/"intelligent" design? [was: cpt banjo brings up a good point concerning using taxpayer money to pay for religious things" |
06 Dec 2005 05:18:24 AM |
|
|
Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com> wrote:
:|buckeye-ELO@cox.net lowered himself
:|to address John Knight, Junior:
:|
:|> Ahhh you are such a phony, lying, dishonest, unethical, fu*king fraud
:|
:|
:| But this, below the dashed line, is interesting
:| and I wouldn't have read it without DeadHeadFred,
:| the spiritual heir of John "ScatBoy" Knight:
:|
:|----------------------------------------
:|
:|"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their
:|congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on
:|chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the
:|characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of
:|contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which
:|they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did
:|not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in
:|that particular art of science."
:|
:|--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281
:|
:|<http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm>
Yes fred doesn't really understand what Jefferson was about with regards to
church state
It is nice when one of fred's own offerings bites him on the *****
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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