Re: Crucified

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Chris"
Date:	31 Mar 2004 08:14:51 PM
Object:	Re: Crucified

"Rafeek" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:ub6m60hsrqjsfunmddojhoj83i5de8p0ql@4ax.com...

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:35:36 GMT, "Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:

"Rafeek" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:oefk605kjnj6dl1ae0q290aikla3gsnmdf@4ax.com...

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:56:25 GMT, "Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:

1. I was asked a question, said I wasn't going to answer it, yet in

the

same post I did actually answer it. I gave the answers the poster was
looking for, I just prefaced them with "if I say...". My point is

this:

Language and assumptions can mask obvious data. My answer was there

for

everyone to see, but no one saw it. If fact, people complained to me

for

not answering even though I did. I therefore assert the following:

You disclaimed your "answer" by putting "if I say.." in front of it.
I cannot assume that is your answer unless you are clearly standing
behind it. Perhaps your answer was there, but I had no way to know
that until you just told me (us). Why not just come out and say it
from the get-go?

I did that just to make the point that by stating that something isn't

there

it becomes "not seen."

Hmm... ?

a. All the evidence anyone needs to believe in Christ is right in

front

of them, but they do not see it. They hide it from themselves because

it's

not in the exact form they desire. They mask it simply by saying that

it's

not there.

I've heard these kinds of statements before, and I find them quite
baffling. What exactly do you mean? You're speaking in riddles... is
it because there is no clear way to communicate what you're trying to
say? Or do you just like to talk that way?

I'm not intentionally speaking in riddles. Nothing I say can make you
believe because it is the Holy Spirit who imparts faith. Christ said

that

He will draw all men to Himself. He does that via the Holy Spirit, and

the

Holy Spirit does His work via the proclamation of the Gospel.

(Rom 10:13-14 NIV) "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be
saved." {14} How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed

in?

And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how

can

they hear without someone preaching to them?

The hearing of the message is all that is required.

OK... I've heard the message since I was old enough to understand
english. So you're saying that now all I have to do is wait, and God
will eventually do something... you're just not sure what?

I'm not asserting that God is "not there," I just can't find a way to
know for sure. If something exists outside of my sensory perception,
I need some alternative source of evidence to place any merit upon it.
Thus far, I haven't been able to acquire this type of evidence
regarding ANYTHING supernatural, not to mention the God of your
religion.

I understand what you are saying, and it is quite a problem. The

evidence

comes only after belief, but how can there be belief without evidence? I
can't resolve this and wouldn't even want to try. This does not matter,
however, because what is impossible with men is possible with God. Only

can resolve this paradox.

It seems to me like all apologetics ultimately boils down to this...
God has the answers, and no man does. Unfortunately, God has not (to
this point, anyway) been very forthcoming with some key information.
That kind of screws up everything.

b. Our thoughts and language radically impact our perceptions.

Just

the fact that I answered even though I said I wouldn't caused everyone

not see the answer, so too do we blind ourselves to the proof of God

simply

by saying "It's not there." Free your minds of your assumptions and
declarations to the contrary and you will see all the evidence you

need

accept Christ. Just as I manipulated you, so too do you manipulate
yourselves and blind yourselves to what is obvious.

In what way is God obvious?

Are you aware of your thoughts? If so, God is obvious. If we are

nothing

more than the products of natural evolution there isn't really such a

thing

as "thought" or "awareness of thought" because anything our brains do is
driven solely by chemicals we consume, and the subsequent chemical

reactions

produced in our brains. Our thoughts would be nothing more than chemical
reactions. Essentially, you would be no more conscious of anything than

piece of rusting iron. The mere fact that you are aware of your

thoughts,

the fact that you are conscious, points to the existence of something

that

you can't see. You cannot measure or see consciousness. You can measure
the chemical reactions that account for emotions and processing, but the
awareness of emotions and thoughts cannot be measured. If you

acknowledge

you are conscious, you acknowledge the existence of that which you cannot
see.

You were doing fine with your logical progression until you tossed God
in there:

I am aware of my thoughts
I am aware of that which cannot be seen
God cannot be seen
Therefore God exists.

See how this doesn't work? You could replace pretty much anything
you've never seen in place of the word "God"... but I'll wager you
don't believe that Zeus exists just because you cannot see him.

The chemical reactions in our brains can be accounted for by natural
evolution, but the awareness of the reactions cannot. I submit that the
consciousness, a thing which you cannot see yet know to exist, was

created

by Someone transcendent.

Science is limited in many ways, and it's definitely a work in
progress, but it's based on things we can see and demonstrate. You
"submit that consciousness ... was created by someone transcendent"...
but is there any reasoning or evidence behind this claim?

God is evident in His creation, and nowhere is He more obvious than in

your

own consciousness. I think, therefore I am. I think, therefore God is.

You're leaving out a lot of stuff in between... you still have to
build a bridge between "I think" and "God is"... you haven't shown
them to be necessarily connected. You haven't shown anything to be
"obvious" thus far.

You do not believe because of your own volition to not do so.

You're VERY wrong there. I would very much like to have the comfort
of knowing that after I die, I'm going to go to a nice place in the
sky. I've been looking for a reason to believe this for decades...
but it escapes me. Unfortunately, I cannot simply decide one day to
believe something for no reason.

You sin of
your own volition, not because any factor causes it. Anyone who

wishes

can

remove their blinders and know God is. Anyone who wishes can be freed

from

the bondage and condemnation of sin simply by accepting Christ. God's

offer

is for anyone who wants it, all anyone has to do is accept it.

I've tried that before... it didn't work.

I can't resolve that for you.

I'm beginning to understand that this is the bottom line... nobody can
really explain or defend christianity adequately. The ultimate
answer, if there is one, isn't going to come from a person. Am I
wrong?

No, you are not wrong. I can't prove it and wouldn't want to try. I can
defend Christianity until I'm blue in the face. I can point you to books
that, when counted together, would take many months to read. However, as I
said in response to another poster, proof is subjective and therefore
irrelevant. If you can look at the Universe and say, "Yep - it all happened
by chance, there's no Creator" you have pretty much doomed yourself to never
finding God. If you can acknowledge the Creator, and avoid replacing Him
with an imagined idol, you'll take your first step towards knowing God.
.

User: "Johnny Bravo"
Title: Re: Crucified	31 Mar 2004 08:51:12 PM

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:14:51 GMT, "Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:

irrelevant. If you can look at the Universe and say, "Yep - it all happened
by chance, there's no Creator" you have pretty much doomed yourself to never
finding God.

That evil God critter of yours has some rather limited powers,
doesn't he?
--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
.

User: "Rafeek"
Title: Re: Crucified	01 Apr 2004 04:24:28 PM

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:14:51 GMT, "Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:

I can't resolve that for you.

No, you are not wrong. I can't prove it and wouldn't want to try.

Hmm... well, you've been trying up to this point to defend your
faith.. now it seems that you're giving up.

However, as I
said in response to another poster, proof is subjective and therefore
irrelevant.

Thank "God" that the folks who brought us electricity, automobiles,
preservatives, antibiotics, agriculture, computers, physics, etc..
don't share your view. Empirical verification is the most important
tool we have as humans when it comes to understanding and manipulating
the world we live in.

If you can look at the Universe and say, "Yep - it all happened
by chance, there's no Creator" you have pretty much doomed yourself to never
finding God.

Science, with all of its flaws, has done a good job convincing me that
there doesn't NEED to be a "creator" in order for the universe to
function and develop. However, you're creating a false dichotomy when
you provide "chance" as the only alternative to God. It makes sense
to me that everything that has ever happened has a logical and
scientific explanation. Science does its best to describe the world
we live in, and definitely has a long way to go before being able to
provide a "theory of everything" as described by Hawking. However,
science (admittedly, still in its infancy) has provided a much more
reasonable framework for understanding the universe than religion
has... for me at least (up to this point).

If you can acknowledge the Creator, and avoid replacing Him
with an imagined idol, you'll take your first step towards knowing God.

Hmm... I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not sure that YOU know
what you mean here. Sounds to me like an essentially meaningless
cliche. I've not replaced anyone with any idols (I don't even watch
American Idol.... very often). If you know the "first step towards
knowing God," what are steps 2, 3, 5, 842, etc.??
I think the bottom line is, there is no clear answer to understanding
God. In fact, most christians I've talked with tell me that it is
impossible to understand God. It seems to me that most christians are
in one of two (possibly more?) categories:
Some were raised to believe in God, and are thereby deeply
indoctrinated. They cannot fathom the universe without God or their
christianity, because they've been programmed from day 1 to think this
way. Some of these people get unplugged from the matrix (like me!)...
Others "came to Christ" for whatever reason. In my experience, many
of these people had utterly failed themselves up to the point of their
"conversion," and had let their lives go to ***** (drugs, booze, or
some such self-destruction - or maybe they simply are dissatisfied
with life in a much less dramatic way). Then, at some point they hit
rock bottom... at this point they are exceedingly receptive to the
friendly outstretched helping hand of "the message." Some christian
(or perhaps a Gideon bible in some dirtbag motel) will explain to them
that they are the scum of the earth, but if they jump through hoops X,
Y, and Z, it is possible to become a worthy human being again.
In many cases, believers gather at church, make christian friends,
listen to christian music, read christian books, and otherwise steep
themselves in their religion. A heavy percentage of their lives
consists of interacting with christians, or doing other christian
stuff. To remove christianity from these people would be
unthinkable... the void would be too great!! Thus, they cannot even
consider anything other than christianity. Good for them!
In any event, christians believe what they do not because of any
cohesive line of reasoning, but rather a chain of personal events and
feelings, which is constantly reinforced by encouragement from other
christians. Also adding to their conviction is their interpretation
of world events as support for their beliefs (i.e. 'something good
happened.. it must be the result of my prayers,' or 'something bad
happened.. it must be the result of me not following God's plan, or is
Gods way of teaching me something' or 'the middle-east situation...
just as described by the bible'... etc.). All of this evidence is
circumstantial, and could be explained in other, non-supernatural
ways.
With all of this in mind, I'll still try to find some christian
somewhere who can convince me. Why? Could be because God is guiding
me on my search.... or it could be that I'm just fascinated by this
topic much as I am fascinated by so much of the world around us.
.

User: "Gomez Addams"
Title: Re: Crucified	01 Apr 2004 05:08:04 PM

Rafeek,
Read "Darwin's Black Box"
God Bless you if you truly seek Him; if not, hell is never too full for
another......
--
Gomez Addams
*"No one has ever changed their mind in the history of Usenet." *
..
"Rafeek" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:tu1p60pg11llagikc36p9ls9s05k1us4jo@4ax.com...

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:14:51 GMT, "Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:

I can't resolve that for you.

No, you are not wrong. I can't prove it and wouldn't want to try.

Hmm... well, you've been trying up to this point to defend your
faith.. now it seems that you're giving up.

However, as I
said in response to another poster, proof is subjective and therefore
irrelevant.

If you can look at the Universe and say, "Yep - it all happened
by chance, there's no Creator" you have pretty much doomed yourself to

never

finding God.

If you can acknowledge the Creator, and avoid replacing Him
with an imagined idol, you'll take your first step towards knowing God.

Hmm... I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not sure that YOU know
what you mean here. Sounds to me like an essentially meaningless
cliche. I've not replaced anyone with any idols (I don't even watch
American Idol.... very often). If you know the "first step towards
knowing God," what are steps 2, 3, 5, 842, etc.??

I think the bottom line is, there is no clear answer to understanding
God. In fact, most christians I've talked with tell me that it is
impossible to understand God. It seems to me that most christians are
in one of two (possibly more?) categories:

Some were raised to believe in God, and are thereby deeply
indoctrinated. They cannot fathom the universe without God or their
christianity, because they've been programmed from day 1 to think this
way. Some of these people get unplugged from the matrix (like me!)...

Others "came to Christ" for whatever reason. In my experience, many
of these people had utterly failed themselves up to the point of their
"conversion," and had let their lives go to ***** (drugs, booze, or
some such self-destruction - or maybe they simply are dissatisfied
with life in a much less dramatic way). Then, at some point they hit
rock bottom... at this point they are exceedingly receptive to the
friendly outstretched helping hand of "the message." Some christian
(or perhaps a Gideon bible in some dirtbag motel) will explain to them
that they are the scum of the earth, but if they jump through hoops X,
Y, and Z, it is possible to become a worthy human being again.

In many cases, believers gather at church, make christian friends,
listen to christian music, read christian books, and otherwise steep
themselves in their religion. A heavy percentage of their lives
consists of interacting with christians, or doing other christian
stuff. To remove christianity from these people would be
unthinkable... the void would be too great!! Thus, they cannot even
consider anything other than christianity. Good for them!

In any event, christians believe what they do not because of any
cohesive line of reasoning, but rather a chain of personal events and
feelings, which is constantly reinforced by encouragement from other
christians. Also adding to their conviction is their interpretation
of world events as support for their beliefs (i.e. 'something good
happened.. it must be the result of my prayers,' or 'something bad
happened.. it must be the result of me not following God's plan, or is
Gods way of teaching me something' or 'the middle-east situation...
just as described by the bible'... etc.). All of this evidence is
circumstantial, and could be explained in other, non-supernatural
ways.

With all of this in mind, I'll still try to find some christian
somewhere who can convince me. Why? Could be because God is guiding
me on my search.... or it could be that I'm just fascinated by this
topic much as I am fascinated by so much of the world around us.

User: "Don calldonREMOVE IT @something.net"
Title: Re: Crucified	01 Apr 2004 07:24:42 PM

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 23:08:04 GMT, "Gomez Addams"
<Gomez&Morticia@Thing.con> wrote:

Rafeek,
God Bless you if you truly seek Him; if not, hell is never too full for
another......

Nothing like a "Christian" greeting another person with "hell is never
too full for another."
So "Gomez," how many folks have you "won" into the Kingdom with THAT
greeting???
D*
"The problem with institutions is that institutions become self-perpetuating.
And when institutions become self-perpetuating, the people become secondary."
- - O-Jo Taylor of the CCM punk band 'Undercover'
The reward for conformity is everyone likes you but yourself.
- - Rita Mae Brown
.

User: "Rafeek"
Title: Re: Crucified	01 Apr 2004 05:21:28 PM

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 23:08:04 GMT, "Gomez Addams"
<Gomez&Morticia@Thing.con> wrote:

Rafeek,
Read "Darwin's Black Box"

Having read a brief synopsis, it seems that the author of this book is
arguing that there must be "intelligent design" to account for life.
That seems possible to me, and I haven't ruled it out. Even if this
IS the case, it's an even FURTHER leap to arrive at the God of
Christianity.

God Bless you if you truly seek Him; if not, hell is never too full for
another......

Thanks for that kind sentiment. It's good to know that loving
christians hope that I burn in hell. You're a real *****!
.

User: "Gomez Addams"
Title: Re: Crucified	01 Apr 2004 05:44:37 PM

No Rafeek, peace be upon you, I do NOT HOPE that you go to hell. I am
simply stating a fact. If I hoped you were going to hell, I would ignore you
and put you into my voluminous killfile. I was a God-hating, doubting
infidel once myself, but real Christians are always eager to share the love
of God. Hence, here I am.
Again, God bless you if you are sincere. If not, it's the "Little Bad
Place" for you. (Used to know a gal who refused to say "hell"; that's what
she called it!)
You doubt the existence of the God of Christianity; He cannot be proven,
He can only be =revealed=. I pray He reveals Himself to you.
Best regards, Gomez
--
Gomez Addams
*"No one has ever changed their mind in the history of Usenet." *
..
"Rafeek" <spam@spam.com> wrote

Thanks for that kind sentiment. It's good to know that loving
christians hope that I burn in hell. You're a real *****!

User: "Stephen Bayzik"
Title: Re: Crucified	01 Apr 2004 08:59:04 PM

"Gomez Addams" <Gomez&Morticia@Thing.con> wrote in message
news:FP1bc.7035$NL4.6135@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...

No Rafeek, peace be upon you, I do NOT HOPE that you go to hell. I am
simply stating a fact. If I hoped you were going to hell, I would ignore

you

and put you into my voluminous killfile. I was a God-hating, doubting
infidel once myself, but real Christians are always eager to share the

love

of God. Hence, here I am.

Sorry, but my sense of humour couldn't let this one go.

I was a God-hating, doubting
infidel once myself, but real Christians are always eager to share the

love

of God. Hence, here I am.

Again in jest only.
"I was a God-hating, drunken alcohol once myself, but real Christians are
always eager to share the commandment of no booze for God, hence here I
am." :-)
Carry on.
--
Stephen Bayzik
.

User: "Chris"
Title: Re: Crucified	01 Apr 2004 05:57:50 PM

"Rafeek" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:tu1p60pg11llagikc36p9ls9s05k1us4jo@4ax.com...

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:14:51 GMT, "Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:

I can't resolve that for you.

No, you are not wrong. I can't prove it and wouldn't want to try.

Hmm... well, you've been trying up to this point to defend your
faith.. now it seems that you're giving up.

I'm not really giving up, my friend. I don't think I've said much of
anything to "defend my faith" as such. I have suggested a few ways in which
me might deceive ourselves and suggested some possible remedies. I wish I
had a logical argument or some powerful words to say to make people believe.
Sadly, I don't.
I will say that even if a person were to see the foolishness of creating
deities to pretend they are the Creator, even if they were to finally
acknowledge God as the Creator, they won't have done any more than taken the
first step. Faith is something that only God can impart. When He rescues
us, He does the whole thing: He imparts the desire to find Him, He grants
faith to those that do find Him so that they can know He is, He forgives
their sins and imparts His Spirit which causes us to will and to do good.
No human can do any of these things - not for others and not even for
ourselves.
I do know that the initial desire to find Him comes from Him, and if you
actually have that desire, He is already at work in you. You won't find Him
by consulting other religions or asking the opinions of others on the
Usenet. You'll only find Him by looking for Him. Even if you don't
believe, there's nothing stopping you from praying to Him and telling Him
that you don't believe but would like to. There's nothing preventing you
from reading the Bible to find Him.
He doesn't turn anyone away who seeks Him in this manner. In the modern
world, we are used to instant gratification. We want what we want and we
want it now. God doesn't work on the consumer's timetable. Sometimes the
seeking can take years. Sometimes it's instantaneous. God is sovereign and
does things, including rewarding seekers, when He pleases.
You can do whatever you want with this information.
Chris

However, as I
said in response to another poster, proof is subjective and therefore
irrelevant.

If you can look at the Universe and say, "Yep - it all happened
by chance, there's no Creator" you have pretty much doomed yourself to

never

finding God.

If you can acknowledge the Creator, and avoid replacing Him
with an imagined idol, you'll take your first step towards knowing God.

Hmm... I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not sure that YOU know
what you mean here. Sounds to me like an essentially meaningless
cliche. I've not replaced anyone with any idols (I don't even watch
American Idol.... very often). If you know the "first step towards
knowing God," what are steps 2, 3, 5, 842, etc.??

I think the bottom line is, there is no clear answer to understanding
God. In fact, most christians I've talked with tell me that it is
impossible to understand God. It seems to me that most christians are
in one of two (possibly more?) categories:

Some were raised to believe in God, and are thereby deeply
indoctrinated. They cannot fathom the universe without God or their
christianity, because they've been programmed from day 1 to think this
way. Some of these people get unplugged from the matrix (like me!)...

Others "came to Christ" for whatever reason. In my experience, many
of these people had utterly failed themselves up to the point of their
"conversion," and had let their lives go to ***** (drugs, booze, or
some such self-destruction - or maybe they simply are dissatisfied
with life in a much less dramatic way). Then, at some point they hit
rock bottom... at this point they are exceedingly receptive to the
friendly outstretched helping hand of "the message." Some christian
(or perhaps a Gideon bible in some dirtbag motel) will explain to them
that they are the scum of the earth, but if they jump through hoops X,
Y, and Z, it is possible to become a worthy human being again.

In many cases, believers gather at church, make christian friends,
listen to christian music, read christian books, and otherwise steep
themselves in their religion. A heavy percentage of their lives
consists of interacting with christians, or doing other christian
stuff. To remove christianity from these people would be
unthinkable... the void would be too great!! Thus, they cannot even
consider anything other than christianity. Good for them!

In any event, christians believe what they do not because of any
cohesive line of reasoning, but rather a chain of personal events and
feelings, which is constantly reinforced by encouragement from other
christians. Also adding to their conviction is their interpretation
of world events as support for their beliefs (i.e. 'something good
happened.. it must be the result of my prayers,' or 'something bad
happened.. it must be the result of me not following God's plan, or is
Gods way of teaching me something' or 'the middle-east situation...
just as described by the bible'... etc.). All of this evidence is
circumstantial, and could be explained in other, non-supernatural
ways.

With all of this in mind, I'll still try to find some christian
somewhere who can convince me. Why? Could be because God is guiding
me on my search.... or it could be that I'm just fascinated by this
topic much as I am fascinated by so much of the world around us.

User: "Gomez Addams"
Title: Re: Crucified	01 Apr 2004 06:20:10 PM

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote

You'll only find Him by looking for Him. Even if you don't
believe, there's nothing stopping you from praying to Him and telling Him
that you don't believe but would like to. There's nothing preventing you
from reading the Bible to find Him.

That's a fact.
.

User: "Stephen Bayzik"
Title: Re: Crucified	01 Apr 2004 09:02:01 PM

"Gomez Addams" <Gomez&Morticia@Thing.con> wrote in message
news:_k2bc.7814$yN6.2442@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote

You'll only find Him by looking for Him. Even if you don't
believe, there's nothing stopping you from praying to Him and telling

Him

that you don't believe but would like to. There's nothing preventing

you

from reading the Bible to find Him.

That's a fact.

Can one take snip of Scotch when reading the Good Book?
--
Stephen Bayzik
.

User: "Chris"
Title: Re: Crucified	02 Apr 2004 11:27:28 AM

"Marguerita" <marguerita@hottermail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:91uq60la5t4rdkg40d49tnof152umngttt@4ax.com...

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:20:10 GMT, "Gomez Addams"
<Gomez&Morticia@Thing.con> wrote:

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote

You'll only find Him by looking for Him. Even if you don't
believe, there's nothing stopping you from praying to Him and telling

Him

that you don't believe but would like to. There's nothing preventing

you

from reading the Bible to find Him.

That's a fact.

I've read the bible. I was interested to see what motivated so many
people to live their lives (and kill so many other people). In a way I
wish I could believe in a God. It would be nice to think that there is
something after this life to look forward to, and that the bad guys
would get punished and the good guys rewarded.

I used to pray when I was younger, and was sent to Sunday school but
somehow it all seemed like a more organized version of the santa claus
stuff I'd been told a few years before. I had no reason to believe
that it was any different.

Despite my early religious education and willingness to learn and read
the bible, I do not believe in God because I can not. Therein lies my
biggest problem with Christianity. I can not simply choose to believe
in God any more than I can choose to believe in Santa, or any more
than you can choose to believe in Pan. It has to be based on
something, even if that's just a gut feeling. I find it impossible to
accept that this supposedly loving and forgiving God could damn people
to suffer in hell for eternity simply because they are not able to
believe in the absence of evidence. It just makes no sense to me. If
he is willing to see me suffer eternal torment, he can not love me,
and he is not willing to forgive.

Reading the bible does not result in a person 'finding' God.

M

Specifically, reading the Bible did not result in *you* finding God. Many
people, including myself, have done just what you say can't be.
Over and over again, I've heard, "I can't believe because there's no
evidence." It's an interesting notion simply because people making this
assertion believe in a lot of things without any evidence. They believe in
a lot of things they, themselves, haven't seen. I imagine you don't have
any problem accepting that there were a bunch of people in the world 1000
years ago, for example.
"Sure," a person might say, "there's plenty of evidence."
I'd ask: "Have you seen the evidence?"
Person:, "Well, I, personally haven't, but archaeologists and historians
have."
Me: "Fair enough. You take their word for it, and you should. But, a whole
lot more people claim to have had supernatural encounters with Christ than
there are historians and archaeologists in the world. You could walk into
almost any church and find people willing to tell you about supernatural,
miraculous things Christ has done for them. Walk into any college and you
probably won't find any archaeologists who are doing primary research -
they're just taking other archaeologist's 'word for it.' It seems to me
that you are just selectively choosing which people to believe."
Person: "Yeah, but I can see the evidence that ancient people lived. I can
see the buildings they left behind and the things they wrote."
Me: "You can see the results of what Christ did. You can see how a tiny
number of people, working on Christ's behalf, spread His message to the
Greco-Roman world and how that message spread all over the world. Yes, you
can see the descendants of people you haven't seen that lived 1000 years
ago. But you can also see the spiritual descendants of Christ."
Person: "But I can see the remains of ancient people now - I can see their
bones and buildings. I can't see God with my eyes."
Me: "So it's a wristwatch and photon issue. You'll believe in what you can
potentially see right now, rather than in something that you might have to
wait until you die to see. Okay, your issue boils down to who's word you
will accept and what your wristwatch tells you and which particular photons
enter your eye. There's nothing I can do about that except ask if a blind
person should believe in nothing since they can't see anything? Does the
only proof of something's existence hinge on whether or not photons can
bounce off of it and enter your eyeball?"
This is far from a convincing argument, I know. It might be worth
considering, however.
You mentioned that you can't believe in a God who would damn people
because they can't believe due to a lack of evidence. Good. Find me a
place in the Bible where it says such is the case. I don't think you can.
On the flip side, I can show you where the Bible says that people are judged
by what they do and not by the fact that they can't believe in a God they've
never heard of. Sadly, most people don't "do good" but that's their
problem. Everyone has a conscience, and Paul said that conscience is a
guide.
Can you believe in a God who only damns people who disobey their
consciences? Can you believe in a God who says that if a person keeps His
word He will come to them and reveal Himself to them?
I know a missionary who went to a monastery in Tibet. The monks had no
problem believing in Christ. Why? Prior to his arrival, a monk was
searching for God and praying to a God he knew must be there but couldn't
see. He had a vision where a white man would show up and tell the monks
about God. This monk waited by the gate. I forget if it was months or
years that he waited. Anyway, this missionary showed up with his family to
take pictures. He was in Tibet with the intention of working in a school
and not to convert any monks. The monk sitting by the gate asked him to
tell them about God so he told them about Christ and they believed.
Can you believe in a God who judges people by what they do, by how they
follow their consciences and who reveals Himself to those who seek Him?
Chris
.

User: "Billy Goat"
Title: Re: Crucified	02 Apr 2004 08:01:42 PM

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message news:<4ohbc.132$W57.103@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

"Marguerita" <marguerita@hottermail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:91uq60la5t4rdkg40d49tnof152umngttt@4ax.com...

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:20:10 GMT, "Gomez Addams"
<Gomez&Morticia@Thing.con> wrote:

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote

You'll only find Him by looking for Him. Even if you don't
believe, there's nothing stopping you from praying to Him and telling

Him

that you don't believe but would like to. There's nothing preventing

you

from reading the Bible to find Him.

That's a fact.

<snip>

Specifically, reading the Bible did not result in *you* finding God. Many
people, including myself, have done just what you say can't be.

Whoa, wait a minute! That's not the story you told me.
You said you were raised to be atheist. You *weren't* looking for God.
But God came to *you*, and told you to read the Bible. You had
*already* found God, *before* reading the Bible.
Why are you changing your story?
--Billy
.

User: "Chris"
Title: Re: Crucified	03 Apr 2004 08:26:35 PM

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404021801.3067bca1@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<4ohbc.132$W57.103@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

"Marguerita" <marguerita@hottermail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:91uq60la5t4rdkg40d49tnof152umngttt@4ax.com...

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:20:10 GMT, "Gomez Addams"
<Gomez&Morticia@Thing.con> wrote:

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote

You'll only find Him by looking for Him. Even if you don't
believe, there's nothing stopping you from praying to Him and

telling

Him

that you don't believe but would like to. There's nothing

preventing

you

from reading the Bible to find Him.

That's a fact.

<snip>

Specifically, reading the Bible did not result in *you* finding God.

Many

people, including myself, have done just what you say can't be.

Whoa, wait a minute! That's not the story you told me.

You said you were raised to be atheist. You *weren't* looking for God.
But God came to *you*, and told you to read the Bible. You had
*already* found God, *before* reading the Bible.

Why are you changing your story?

--Billy

I'm not changing my story. Is this some kind of silly atheist thing where
you train yourselves to pick apart anything a Christian says to try to make
everything they say look foolish? Or, maybe it's an atheist prejudice where
they assume Christians can only lie and therefore change their stories
whenever it suits them. Maybe it's an atheist prejudice where they assume
that Christians are stupid and simply can't get their facts straight no
matter how hard they try.
Of course, when people's methods and prejudices are exposed they squawk to
high heaven that such isn't the case, feign offence, and charge "ad
hominem", so I expect no less here. If you were not coming from a bigoted
position, you might have said, "Could you clarify something for me? I'm not
clear on exactly what you meant."
However, if you must know the particulars of what happened, I'll say that I
had not found God prior to reading the Bible. I had no idea whatsoever at
to what drove me to desire to read the Bible. It is only in retrospect that
I realize it was God. There was no one in my life to tell me about God, so
He told me Himself by driving me to read the Bible. Happy?
Chris
.

User: "Gomez Addams"
Title: Re: Crucified	04 Apr 2004 12:05:44 PM

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote

However, if you must know the particulars of what happened, I'll say that

had not found God prior to reading the Bible. I had no idea whatsoever at
to what drove me to desire to read the Bible. It is only in retrospect

that

I realize it was God. There was no one in my life to tell me about God,

He told me Himself by driving me to read the Bible. Happy?

Atheists are =both= a wonderful mission field and the biggest, as CS
Lewis said "Time-wasters", in the world. I usually give them a few messages
from my store of time allotted and then killfile and move on. If you don't
use a huge killfile on these forums you will go insane!!!!
There is no plan B for salvation:
Rom 10:14 � How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they
hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written,
"HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
Rom 10:16 � However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says,
"LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Rom 10:17 So faith {comes} from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
NASB
--
Gomez Addams
"No one has ever changed their mind in the history of Usenet."
.

User: "Johnny Bravo"
Title: Re: Crucified	04 Apr 2004 08:59:13 PM

On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 17:05:44 GMT, "Gomez Addams"
<Gomez&Morticia@Thing.con> wrote:

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote

However, if you must know the particulars of what happened, I'll say that

had not found God prior to reading the Bible. I had no idea whatsoever at
to what drove me to desire to read the Bible. It is only in retrospect

that

I realize it was God. There was no one in my life to tell me about God,

He told me Himself by driving me to read the Bible. Happy?

You're in alt.atheism moron, had you spent the minimal amount of
time required to find out what the group was about you would know just
how stupid it is to killfile atheists in a discussion group for
atheists about atheist issues not for fundies to try to "save" us.
--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
.

User: "Fred Stone"
Title: Re: Crucified	03 Apr 2004 09:05:47 PM

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in
news:vnKbc.4721$V%3.4404@nwrdny02.gnilink.net:

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404021801.3067bca1@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<4ohbc.132$W57.103@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

"Marguerita" <marguerita@hottermail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:91uq60la5t4rdkg40d49tnof152umngttt@4ax.com...

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:20:10 GMT, "Gomez Addams"
<Gomez&Morticia@Thing.con> wrote:

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote

You'll only find Him by looking for Him. Even if you don't
believe, there's nothing stopping you from praying to Him and

telling

Him

that you don't believe but would like to. There's nothing

preventing

you

from reading the Bible to find Him.

That's a fact.

<snip>

Specifically, reading the Bible did not result in *you* finding
God.

Many

people, including myself, have done just what you say can't be.

Whoa, wait a minute! That's not the story you told me.

You said you were raised to be atheist. You *weren't* looking for
God. But God came to *you*, and told you to read the Bible. You had
*already* found God, *before* reading the Bible.

Why are you changing your story?

--Billy

I'm not changing my story. Is this some kind of silly atheist thing
where you train yourselves to pick apart anything a Christian says to
try to make everything they say look foolish?

It's not like we have to try very hard.

Or, maybe it's an
atheist prejudice where they assume Christians can only lie and
therefore change their stories whenever it suits them. Maybe it's an
atheist prejudice where they assume that Christians are stupid and
simply can't get their facts straight no matter how hard they try.

That's the nature of religion in general and Christianity in particular.

Of course, when people's methods and prejudices are exposed they
squawk to high heaven that such isn't the case, feign offence, and
charge "ad hominem", so I expect no less here.

Oh, no, you've nailed it.

If you were not
coming from a bigoted position, you might have said, "Could you
clarify something for me? I'm not clear on exactly what you meant."

Why be polite? If you don't want criticism, don't crosspost to
alt.atheism.

However, if you must know the particulars of what happened, I'll say
that I had not found God prior to reading the Bible. I had no idea
whatsoever at to what drove me to desire to read the Bible. It is
only in retrospect that I realize it was God. There was no one in my
life to tell me about God, so He told me Himself by driving me to read
the Bible. Happy?

If you like. I read the Bible and decided that it was a load of crap.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?
.

User: "Chris"
Title: Re: Crucified	03 Apr 2004 09:38:05 PM

"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94C0E0CCA9149fstone69@207.69.154.201...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in
news:vnKbc.4721$V%3.4404@nwrdny02.gnilink.net:

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404021801.3067bca1@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<4ohbc.132$W57.103@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

"Marguerita" <marguerita@hottermail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:91uq60la5t4rdkg40d49tnof152umngttt@4ax.com...

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:20:10 GMT, "Gomez Addams"
<Gomez&Morticia@Thing.con> wrote:

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote

You'll only find Him by looking for Him. Even if you don't
believe, there's nothing stopping you from praying to Him and

telling

Him

that you don't believe but would like to. There's nothing

preventing

you

from reading the Bible to find Him.

That's a fact.

<snip>

Specifically, reading the Bible did not result in *you* finding
God.

Many

people, including myself, have done just what you say can't be.

Whoa, wait a minute! That's not the story you told me.

You said you were raised to be atheist. You *weren't* looking for
God. But God came to *you*, and told you to read the Bible. You had
*already* found God, *before* reading the Bible.

Why are you changing your story?

--Billy

I'm not changing my story. Is this some kind of silly atheist thing
where you train yourselves to pick apart anything a Christian says to
try to make everything they say look foolish?

It's not like we have to try very hard.

That's the nature of religion in general and Christianity in particular.

Of course, when people's methods and prejudices are exposed they
squawk to high heaven that such isn't the case, feign offence, and
charge "ad hominem", so I expect no less here.

Oh, no, you've nailed it.

If you were not
coming from a bigoted position, you might have said, "Could you
clarify something for me? I'm not clear on exactly what you meant."

Why be polite? If you don't want criticism, don't crosspost to
alt.atheism.

If you like. I read the Bible and decided that it was a load of crap.

--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?

Please accept my sincere thanks for admitting your prejudices. A lesser man
would deny them all.
Chris
.

User: "Fred Stone"
Title: Re: Crucified	04 Apr 2004 07:05:54 AM

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in
news:xqLbc.3545$_K3.2701@nwrdny01.gnilink.net:

"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94C0E0CCA9149fstone69@207.69.154.201...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in
news:vnKbc.4721$V%3.4404@nwrdny02.gnilink.net:

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404021801.3067bca1@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<4ohbc.132$W57.103@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

"Marguerita" <marguerita@hottermail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:91uq60la5t4rdkg40d49tnof152umngttt@4ax.com...

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:20:10 GMT, "Gomez Addams"
<Gomez&Morticia@Thing.con> wrote:

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote

You'll only find Him by looking for Him. Even if you don't
believe, there's nothing stopping you from praying to Him
and

telling

Him

that you don't believe but would like to. There's nothing

preventing

you

from reading the Bible to find Him.

That's a fact.

<snip>

Specifically, reading the Bible did not result in *you* finding
God.

Many

people, including myself, have done just what you say can't be.

Whoa, wait a minute! That's not the story you told me.

You said you were raised to be atheist. You *weren't* looking for
God. But God came to *you*, and told you to read the Bible. You
had *already* found God, *before* reading the Bible.

Why are you changing your story?

--Billy

I'm not changing my story. Is this some kind of silly atheist
thing where you train yourselves to pick apart anything a Christian
says to try to make everything they say look foolish?

It's not like we have to try very hard.

Or, maybe it's an
atheist prejudice where they assume Christians can only lie and
therefore change their stories whenever it suits them. Maybe it's
an atheist prejudice where they assume that Christians are stupid
and simply can't get their facts straight no matter how hard they
try.

That's the nature of religion in general and Christianity in
particular.

Of course, when people's methods and prejudices are exposed they
squawk to high heaven that such isn't the case, feign offence, and
charge "ad hominem", so I expect no less here.

Oh, no, you've nailed it.

If you were not
coming from a bigoted position, you might have said, "Could you
clarify something for me? I'm not clear on exactly what you
meant."

Why be polite? If you don't want criticism, don't crosspost to
alt.atheism.

However, if you must know the particulars of what happened, I'll
say that I had not found God prior to reading the Bible. I had no
idea whatsoever at to what drove me to desire to read the Bible.
It is only in retrospect that I realize it was God. There was no
one in my life to tell me about God, so He told me Himself by
driving me to read the Bible. Happy?

If you like. I read the Bible and decided that it was a load of crap.

--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?

Please accept my sincere thanks for admitting your prejudices. A
lesser man would deny them all.

Now, you see, that's *your* problem, you think they're *pre*judices.
They're not. They're judgements based on years of experience.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?
.

User: "Billy Goat"
Title: Re: Crucified	04 Apr 2004 11:03:00 PM

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message news:<vnKbc.4721$V%3.4404@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>...

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404021801.3067bca1@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<4ohbc.132$W57.103@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

Specifically, reading the Bible did not result in *you* finding God.

Many

people, including myself, have done just what you say can't be.

Whoa, wait a minute! That's not the story you told me.

You said you were raised to be atheist. You *weren't* looking for God.
But God came to *you*, and told you to read the Bible. You had
*already* found God, *before* reading the Bible.

Why are you changing your story?

--Billy

I just couldn't help noticing that the obstacles Christians list, when
asked why God doesn't show Himself to atheists, always seemed to exist
in the Christian's own life before conversion. These obstacles didn't
keep *you* away from God, but for some reason they keep *us* away from
God.
"I used to be a sinful atheist. I was wallowing in sin, and I didn't
care. I had no exposure to religion. I no interest in the Bible. I
hated God. But then, God came to *me*. He told me what to read, how to
pray, how to live. He came to me out of His Grace, His own random
divine whim, *not* because of anything *I've* done, not because of
*my* virtue, not *my* actions, not *my* attitude. As the Bible says,
God is not a respecter of *individuals* (Acts 10:34)."
"You pitiful atheists wallow in sin and don't care. You don't know
anything about religion, you have no interest in the Bible, and you
hate God. You want God to find *you*, because you don't want to make
the effort to find *Him*. You don't know what to read, how to pray,
how to live. You have the wrong attitude, do the wrong actions, and
believe the wrong virtues. He will only reveal Himself to
*individuals* who are willing to change."
It's as if... dare I say it... you're making excuses. Isn't it
possible that what happened to you will eventually happen to us? Isn't
it possible that atheists are simply just like you? If so, why treat
us badly?
Or does the possibility that the saved and the unsaved are equals,
disgust you?

However, if you must know the particulars of what happened, I'll say that I
had not found God prior to reading the Bible. I had no idea whatsoever at
to what drove me to desire to read the Bible. It is only in retrospect that
I realize it was God. There was no one in my life to tell me about God, so
He told me Himself by driving me to read the Bible. Happy?

Then *you* didn't find Him by looking for Him. So stop telling us
*we'll* find Him by looking for Him. And don't think of "finding God"
as an *accomplishment* that makes you better than us. The Bible warns
against that sin of pride, remember? "Not by your efforts, but by
God's grace."
--Billy
.

User: "Gomez Addams"
Title: Re: Crucified	05 Apr 2004 06:58:32 AM

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote

"I used to be a sinful atheist. I was wallowing in sin, and I didn't
care. I had no exposure to religion. I no interest in the Bible. I
hated God. But then, God came to *me*. He told me what to read, how to
pray, how to live. He came to me out of His Grace, His own random
divine whim, *not* because of anything *I've* done, not because of
*my* virtue, not *my* actions, not *my* attitude. As the Bible says,
God is not a respecter of *individuals* (Acts 10:34)."

That about wraps it up.

"You pitiful atheists wallow in sin and don't care. You don't know
anything about religion, you have no interest in the Bible, and you
hate God. You want God to find *you*, because you don't want to make
the effort to find *Him*. You don't know what to read, how to pray,
how to live. You have the wrong attitude, do the wrong actions, and
believe the wrong virtues. He will only reveal Himself to
*individuals* who are willing to change."

Uh, no, only individuals to whom He has revealed Himself will be willing
and able to change.

It's as if... dare I say it... you're making excuses. Isn't it
possible that what happened to you will eventually happen to us? Isn't
it possible that atheists are simply just like you? If so, why treat
us badly?

I'm not in favor of treating you badly; I just happen to believe that
the Bible teaches that you are all unrepentant sinners on the way to a real
and fiery hell. Other than that, you sound like a pretty swell guy. Wanna go
out and have a beer?

Or does the possibility that the saved and the unsaved are equals,
disgust you?

All men are created equal; but they don't stay that way. I'm on the UP
escalator, you're on the DOWN; by chance we have met in the middle. Howdy!

God said He would be found by those who were =not= looking for Him. So
stop looking already!
--
Gomez Addams
"No one has ever changed their mind in the history of Usenet."
.

User: "Chris"
Title: Re: Crucified	05 Apr 2004 11:55:34 AM

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404042003.579d55a@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<vnKbc.4721$V%3.4404@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>...

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404021801.3067bca1@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<4ohbc.132$W57.103@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

Specifically, reading the Bible did not result in *you* finding God.

Many

people, including myself, have done just what you say can't be.

Whoa, wait a minute! That's not the story you told me.

You said you were raised to be atheist. You *weren't* looking for God.
But God came to *you*, and told you to read the Bible. You had
*already* found God, *before* reading the Bible.

Why are you changing your story?

--Billy

I'm not changing my story. Is this some kind of silly atheist thing

where

you train yourselves to pick apart anything a Christian says to try to

make

everything they say look foolish? Or, maybe it's an atheist prejudice

where

they assume Christians can only lie and therefore change their stories
whenever it suits them. Maybe it's an atheist prejudice where they

assume

that Christians are stupid and simply can't get their facts straight no
matter how hard they try.

I just couldn't help noticing that the obstacles Christians list, when
asked why God doesn't show Himself to atheists, always seemed to exist
in the Christian's own life before conversion. These obstacles didn't
keep *you* away from God, but for some reason they keep *us* away from
God.

"I used to be a sinful atheist. I was wallowing in sin, and I didn't
care. I had no exposure to religion. I no interest in the Bible. I
hated God. But then, God came to *me*. He told me what to read, how to
pray, how to live. He came to me out of His Grace, His own random
divine whim, *not* because of anything *I've* done, not because of
*my* virtue, not *my* actions, not *my* attitude. As the Bible says,
God is not a respecter of *individuals* (Acts 10:34)."

"You pitiful atheists wallow in sin and don't care. You don't know
anything about religion, you have no interest in the Bible, and you
hate God. You want God to find *you*, because you don't want to make
the effort to find *Him*. You don't know what to read, how to pray,
how to live. You have the wrong attitude, do the wrong actions, and
believe the wrong virtues. He will only reveal Himself to
*individuals* who are willing to change."

It's as if... dare I say it... you're making excuses. Isn't it
possible that what happened to you will eventually happen to us?

I certainly hope this would be the case.

Isn't
it possible that atheists are simply just like you? If so, why treat
us badly?

How am I treating anyone badly? Sure, I've used some occasional cajoling to
get people to respond, but that's nothing to people having accused me of
being a fool, delusional and psychologically abusive. On the flip side,
I've encouraged people who don't believe in God, but who want to, to pray to
Him and ask Him to help them believe. How is that treating anyone badly?
Oh, wait, I know what I did that was so bad. I exposed some dishonest
tactics and exposed some prejudices. Terribly sorry -please, everyone, go
back to thinking your motives are always pure and that you have no
prejudices. Ignore anything I may have demonstrated to the contrary.

Or does the possibility that the saved and the unsaved are equals,
disgust you?

Wow. I've asserted that I am more ignorant, "sinful", and dishonest than
anyone here. The wold seem to place me a couple of rungs below you, don't
you think?

However, if you must know the particulars of what happened, I'll say

that I

had not found God prior to reading the Bible. I had no idea whatsoever

to what drove me to desire to read the Bible. It is only in retrospect

that

I realize it was God. There was no one in my life to tell me about God,

He told me Himself by driving me to read the Bible. Happy?

I don't think I did any more than open up the possibility that there can be
a God as evidenced by Creation. However, even acknowledging God as
evidenced by Creation won't lead anyone to Christ, it would just open up the
possibility in one's mind that God exists. I believe I mentioned that in a
previous post.
As far as your assertion that I am claiming some sort of superiority over
people who don't have the same beliefs as I do, I don't think this is the
case. If you consider the brief account I supplied of how I came to know
Christ, you'll see that I was barely involved in the process. Furthermore,
I've made it clear that I am less honest and more "sinful" than the folks
with whom I am currently corresponding. How any of this could possibly be
termed "prideful" is beyond me.
I'm really not sure why any of this bothers you. I mean, if you don't like
what I have to say you don't have to read it. Killfiles are a great tool.
What exactly would you like me to say so that you will not be offended?
Chris
.

User: "Billy Goat"
Title: Re: Crucified	05 Apr 2004 09:00:06 PM

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message news:<acgcc.14506$W57.7451@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404042003.579d55a@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<vnKbc.4721$V%3.4404@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>...

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404021801.3067bca1@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<4ohbc.132$W57.103@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

It's as if... dare I say it... you're making excuses. Isn't it
possible that what happened to you will eventually happen to us?

I certainly hope this would be the case.

Isn't
it possible that atheists are simply just like you? If so, why treat
us badly?

When people sincerely try praying to God to help them believe, and it
doesn't work, how would you respond? Would you blame the people and
question their sincerity?

Oh, wait, I know what I did that was so bad. I exposed some dishonest
tactics

Sigh. No, you haven't, and you treat us badly by continually insisting
that you have. Seeing atheists as dishonest seems very important to
your psyche. Plus, you admitted to using dishonest tactics yourself.
What did Jesus say about such things? The speck in my eye, the beam in
yours? Do unto others? Sheesh, even Christians don't take the
teachings of Jesus seriously.

and exposed some prejudices.

What about *your* prejudices?

Or does the possibility that the saved and the unsaved are equals,
disgust you?

Wow. I've asserted that I am more ignorant, "sinful", and dishonest than
anyone here. The wold seem to place me a couple of rungs below you, don't
you think?

Below? As in, not equal?

However, if you must know the particulars of what happened, I'll say

that I

had not found God prior to reading the Bible. I had no idea whatsoever

to what drove me to desire to read the Bible. It is only in retrospect

that

I realize it was God. There was no one in my life to tell me about God,

He told me Himself by driving me to read the Bible. Happy?

You think you're saved, and that people who don't have the same
beliefs as you aren't saved. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think love is
demonstrated by how one treats others, which suggests that God loves
those He saves more than He loves anyone else. So, claiming you're
saved and I'm not, is the same as claiming that He loves you more than
me. And if that's not an attitude of superiority, I don't know what
is.

If you consider the brief account I supplied of how I came to know
Christ, you'll see that I was barely involved in the process. Furthermore,
I've made it clear that I am less honest and more "sinful" than the folks
with whom I am currently corresponding. How any of this could possibly be
termed "prideful" is beyond me.

I'm really not sure why any of this bothers you. I mean, if you don't like
what I have to say you don't have to read it. Killfiles are a great tool.
What exactly would you like me to say so that you will not be offended?

Chris

It would help if you could understand what exactly offends people.
Speaking for myself, I am offended by the implication inherent in
Christianity that being Christian is, to God, more important than
being moral. And, that agreeing with that is the key to salvation. I
would hope God is offended by the notion too, because it's exactly the
type of thinking that makes religious terrorism possible.
--Billy
.

User: "Chris"
Title: Re: Crucified	05 Apr 2004 09:23:08 PM

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404051800.34642f41@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<acgcc.14506$W57.7451@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404042003.579d55a@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<vnKbc.4721$V%3.4404@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>...

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404021801.3067bca1@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<4ohbc.132$W57.103@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

It's as if... dare I say it... you're making excuses. Isn't it
possible that what happened to you will eventually happen to us?

I certainly hope this would be the case.

Isn't
it possible that atheists are simply just like you? If so, why treat
us badly?

How am I treating anyone badly? Sure, I've used some occasional

cajoling to

get people to respond, but that's nothing to people having accused me of
being a fool, delusional and psychologically abusive. On the flip side,
I've encouraged people who don't believe in God, but who want to, to

pray to

Him and ask Him to help them believe. How is that treating anyone

badly?

When people sincerely try praying to God to help them believe, and it
doesn't work, how would you respond? Would you blame the people and
question their sincerity?

First, I'd have to ask how long they have been doing such? A day? A couple
of months? If someone spends 60 years praying then comes to belief and dies
the next day and is then taken to be with God, it was time well spent.
However, each person is different, and when talking to people in real life,
if someone is honestly having problems, I try to address them as best I can.
I have responses that are perfectly satisfactory to me, and indeed - to
many, many Christians, but if someone wants to argue against them, that is
what they will do. There's nothing I can do in such a case. There's
nothing I can do to make people believe me or agree with me.

Oh, wait, I know what I did that was so bad. I exposed some dishonest
tactics

Sigh. No, you haven't, and you treat us badly by continually insisting
that you have.

Whatever. The horse is dead.

Seeing atheists as dishonest seems very important to
your psyche. Plus, you admitted to using dishonest tactics yourself.
What did Jesus say about such things? The speck in my eye, the beam in
yours? Do unto others? Sheesh, even Christians don't take the
teachings of Jesus seriously.

I'd want people to trick me into exposing my dishonesty and prejudice. I'd
be quite happy if someone were to do that for me.

and exposed some prejudices.

What about *your* prejudices?

Like all human beings, I have prejudices. I'd never deny such a charge.

Or does the possibility that the saved and the unsaved are equals,
disgust you?

Wow. I've asserted that I am more ignorant, "sinful", and dishonest

than

anyone here. The wold seem to place me a couple of rungs below you,

don't

you think?

Below? As in, not equal?

That appears to be your charge as you continually like to point out my
faults.

However, if you must know the particulars of what happened, I'll say

that I

had not found God prior to reading the Bible. I had no idea

whatsoever

to what drove me to desire to read the Bible. It is only in

retrospect

that

I realize it was God. There was no one in my life to tell me about

God,

He told me Himself by driving me to read the Bible. Happy?

I don't think I did any more than open up the possibility that there can

a God as evidenced by Creation. However, even acknowledging God as
evidenced by Creation won't lead anyone to Christ, it would just open up

the

possibility in one's mind that God exists. I believe I mentioned that

in a

previous post.

As far as your assertion that I am claiming some sort of superiority

over

people who don't have the same beliefs as I do, I don't think this is

the

case.

All I can do is claim Bblical soteriology:
(John 3:16 NIV) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only
Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Apparently, God loves everyone the same, and makes the same offer available
to everyone. If someone chooses not to believe or accept that offer, that's
really their own problem. If you want to put words in my mouth and see that
as a claim of superiority, who am I to stop you?
Chris

If you consider the brief account I supplied of how I came to know
Christ, you'll see that I was barely involved in the process.

Furthermore,

I've made it clear that I am less honest and more "sinful" than the

folks

with whom I am currently corresponding. How any of this could possibly

termed "prideful" is beyond me.

I'm really not sure why any of this bothers you. I mean, if you don't

what I have to say you don't have to read it. Killfiles are a great

tool.

What exactly would you like me to say so that you will not be offended?

Chris

User: "Billy Goat"
Title: Re: Crucified	06 Apr 2004 10:11:37 PM

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message news:<gwocc.161$Ne3.158@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>...

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404051800.34642f41@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<acgcc.14506$W57.7451@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404042003.579d55a@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<vnKbc.4721$V%3.4404@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>...

"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0404021801.3067bca1@posting.google.com...

"Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message

news:<4ohbc.132$W57.103@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

Isn't
it possible that atheists are simply just like you? If so, why treat
us