"Don" < calldonREMOVE IT @something.net> wrote in message
news:72vl60pi9pcaloo8elt11ef84rjts5arqq@4ax.com...
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:39:46 GMT, "Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
I have a few mostly meaningless one-liners in my responses. Read to the
bottom for the crux of my position.
"Don" < calldonREMOVE IT @something.net> wrote in message
news:vdqk60lmjh4op4uqp4ufaucfv6aegranl0@4ax.com...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:56:25 GMT, "Chris" <vze235xx@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
Not at all. I am just asserting that I can recognize when a question
has
been asked in order for the asker to make his or her point, regardless
of
the answer given.
This is not true in every case. You can't always tell what the motive
is, whether or not you tell yourself that you can!
You are correct, I can't figure out what a motive might be in every case.
In this case, however, the motive was obvious.
Probably true.
The atheists hate it ...
ALL atheists? Why the constant generalizing???
to no
end when their devices are exposed, hence everyone calling "foul!" when I
did such. It's incredibly funny, but also incredibly pathetic. I am,
however, happy to accept any insult for my accurate analysis.
This was demonstrated quite well by the fact that the
person who asked the question ignored my response in order to make his
point. My words had no effect, because he wasn't looking for an
answer.
In this one case, but not in all. I can also usually recognize a
spiritual arrogance, a pride in one's ability to discern...as I read
in your post so far.
Read what and how you want. It doesn't effect me in the least.
Obviously..
They are valid questions. Children ask them in Sunday school. You
wouldn't call a curious child a "dishonest" "sinner" for asking such
questions, would you? (Well, you probably would if you were
Catholic.)
Surely you yourself have asked such questions when you were first
learning about your religion.
No, I would never call a serious and sincere question dishonest. Such
was
not the case here, however.
A religion that calls questions "sinful" drives truth-seekers away.
Don't be like the nuns who beat inquisitive children. Be part of the
solution, not part of the problem. Spread the truth. Answer the
questions.
I placed this out of order deliberately. I would never wish to
alienate
an
honest truth-seeker, however with the exception of you and Rafeek,
there
doesn't appear to be much truth-seeking going on.
Again, more arrogance than discernment. At least, that is what I see
in your answer. But then, I could be wrong.
It doesn't matter. Call me arrogant. We'll take that as a given - I am
arrogant. I'll add even more negative characterizations which I am happy
to
freely acknowledge: I am stupid, carnal, vain, a liar, hateful, unloving
towards God and other people, hateful, lustful. I am altogether sinful.
I
freely acknowledge this and would never argue to the contrary.
And you seem to take pride in it. Well...good for you.
What I would like people to take away from all I have written
and the responses received is as follows:
1. I was asked a question, said I wasn't going to answer it, yet in
the
same post I did actually answer it. I gave the answers the poster was
looking for, I just prefaced them with "if I say...". My point is
this:
Language and assumptions can mask obvious data. My answer was there
for
everyone to see, but no one saw it. If fact, people complained to me
for
not answering even though I did. I therefore assert the following:
a. All the evidence anyone needs to believe in Christ is right in
front
of them, but they do not see it.
Where? What is "all the evidence?" Is it "right in front of"
everybody in the world or just a few in developed western countries?
They hide it from themselves because it's
not in the exact form they desire.
How do you know this? Exactly HOW do they "hide it?" Did you ask
them or what?
I lived as "them", as you put it, for quite some time.
You can not lump "them" all in one basket.
I know how blind and
self-deceived I was. I think I made it quite clear how they "hide it" -
simply by declaring it's not there makes them unable to see. Read all
the
way down for a complete answer.
One thing I see is your love of generalization.
They mask it simply by saying that it's
not there.
How do YOU know WHAT THEY see???
Because I was one of them.
And you are not now because...???
b. Our thoughts and language radically impact our perceptions.
Just
as
the fact that I answered even though I said I wouldn't caused everyone
to
not see the answer, so too do we blind ourselves to the proof of God
simply
by saying "It's not there."
So you are saying that WE INTENTIONALLY blind OURSELVES??? How do you
know? How do you know WHO has blinded himself and who has NOT?
You do like to ask the same questions over and over again, don't you?
Not when I get an answer?
Besides having lived as them, I also know what God says about this. By
refusing to acknowledge the Creator - the Unseen - as revealed by what
is
seen:
(Rom 1:20-22 NIV) For since the creation of the world God's invisible
qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen,
being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
{21} For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor
gave
thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts
were darkened. {22} Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
Free your minds of your assumptions and
declarations to the contrary and you will see all the evidence you
need
to
accept Christ.
Why would YOU ASSUME that you KNOW that one's mind is burdened with
"assumptions and declarations" that prevent one from "accepting
Christ?" Why DO you assume such things? Are you a mind-reader? Do
you "know all?"
IF one frees his mind of his "assumptions and declarations to the
contrary," please tell WHAT SPECIFICALLY will one see that will be
"all the evidence" needed to "accept Christ?"
Please be specific.
How can I possibly describe the spiritual to the carnal mind? I am quite
unable. As to what will be seen, please see the quotation from Romans
above.
Try harder!
Just as I manipulated you, so too do you manipulate
yourselves and blind yourselves to what is obvious.
So YOU admit that YOU are dishonest in your manipulation, and because
of that, you feel that EVERYONE is also dishonest to themselves and
that they ACTIVELY and of their own volition BLIND themselves to what
you think is obvious?
No, that's not exactly what I said. It is easy to manipulate others and
even one's self by making statements contrary to the truth. I hid my
answer
by saying it wasn't there when it actually was. Read down further to see
how two simple phrases hide the Creator.
Please tell WHAT SPECIFICALLY is "OBVIOUS" to which a lost person has
blinded themselves in order to NOT see?
See the quote from Romans above.
I did. It also presents somewhat of a riddle. I asked YOU to tell
what you think "is obvious." Can't you do it?
Everyone who charges that God has hidden Himself should consider the
fact
that language and the thoughts behind it may be what hides Him.
Simply
by
asserting that there is no evidence for God it is possible to prevent
yourselves from seeing what is there.
And what do you say to one who does not make that assertion, but who,
for some reason, can not see God...as you see God?
They are not seeing correctly.
You do not believe because of your own volition to not do so.
That simply is not true for everyone.
Anyone who wishes can
remove their blinders and know God is.
1) HOW does one "remove their blinders" in order to "know God is?"
By becoming an honest seeker.
You are assuming that those who seek and do not react as you reacted
are dishonest. You cannot make that assumption.
2) HOW does one "KNOW God is?" How specifically?
By becoming an honest seeker.
Again, more assumption on your part regarding the motives of the
seeker.
Since you have stated above several times that it IS possible to SEE
"what is there,"and to "see all the evidence you need," I would assume
that you can DEFINE THAT EVIDENCE. Again, please be specific with
your definition of the "evidence" needed to "accept Christ."
You apparently want me to define that which is spiritual in terms of that
which is not spiritual. How can I possibly define something which cannot
be
measured, drawn or modeled?
Among other generalizations you stated:
1) All the evidence anyone needs to believe in Christ is right in
front of them.
2) It is obvious.
To some seekers, it is not so obvious. But you have a way of lumping
them all together in the same basket that YOU were in then assuming
THEY are just like YOU "were." That may be convenient for your
performance but it is not necessarily truth. But for you, it is an
easy answer.
I would imagine that the fairy tales people swallow about the Universe
being
self-caused are a big obstacles preventing them from seeing what is
there.
Perhaps for some.
The bizarre, non-Chrust-like actions of those who proudly wear the
name "Christian" are a HUGE obstacle in many coming to Christ.
Spiritual condescension doesn't look good on a so-called believer.
Many "lost" people see no advantage to embracing what the "Jerk for
Jesus" has. It did no good for him, why bother?!? Even your proud
arrogance and deception in this thread alone have only presented
another example of an un-transformed life. If you claim to be a
Christian, you have simply replaced one dogma with another. You see
deception/lying as a tool for manipulation, then try to rationalize it
by calling it "research." How convenient.
To show what I mean, I'll use an example that most people will agree is
quite absurd. Consider an idol - a statue that a primitive person might
carve and them claim is a deity. A person takes a created thing - a
piece
of wood - and carves it into a shape based on the inclinations of their
imagination. They use a created thing, wood, apply their imagination,
another created thing, and create an idol. They then believe that this
created thing, which they totally made themselves, represents the
Creator.
It's quite ridiculous.
Not every primitive person worships idols. Not every primitive person
worships.
Of course the scientifically inclined person doesn't do this. But they
do
something similar. They imagine theories and formulate equations to
explain
the origin of Creation. I don't have a problem with natural or
theoretical
science. The fact that the Universe is quite old is apparent, and it's
likely that the "Big Bang" is true. However, none of this can explain
the
ultimate origin of what is seen. Rather than using imagination to create
a
deity, as an idolater would, we use imagination to create the absence of
a
Deity. The methods and goals employed by idolaters and scientists are qu
ite
different, but the net result is the same.
Generalizations and extremes. You are ignoring the vast majority of
humanity.
As an idolater uses an idol to
do-away with the true Creator, we use science in the same way. So, while
the fact that the Universe exists should be all that is needed to reveal
the
Creator, we blind ourselves by making the Universe either self-caused or
uncaused. Two phrases, "self-caused" and "uncaused" are the only
blinders
the modern man needs to hide the truth.
Extreme generalizations and cliches. That's an easy out for many
"Christians." Seems to work for you. Of course, I am assuming that
you might be one...but maybe not. It's probably just part of your
trolling act.
"Devout religionists are frequently attracted to and
bound to their piety largely because it presumably offers them
holier-than-thouness and oneupmanship over non-religionists."
--Dr. Albert Ellis
Gee, and there I was acknowledging everything *but* being "holier than thou"
and you found fault with that too. This is not an unforeseen reaction. I'm
sorry to hear Mr. Ellis doesn't approve of "religionists" - I guess he's
right because his institute has a website. As far as the accusation that I
am a "jerk for Jesus" that's fine too. Jesus taught that the world can't
love me because I belong to Him. No matter what I say, or don't say, or how
I say what I say, I will be disliked by people who don't belong to Christ.
As far as you claiming that my tactics, and "tactics" is an accurate word,
reflects badly on me and on God because there was deception and arrogance,
all I can say is the following: First, I responded tit-for-tat. People
tried to trick me into saying what they wanted me to say, and when I did the
exact same thing, they cried "No fair! You're arrogant!"
Second, I disclosed my designs, so any deception was only temporary. The
thing is, there was no real deception anyway - I hid what I did in plain
sight. It was a lie similar to me standing in front of everyone with a pen
in my hand and insisting that I had no pen. Claims of deception and
arrogance on my part reek of someone who has seen how easily they can be
tricked by words and is upset about it. You should be madder at
yourselves for using words to trick yourselves into not being able to see
the Creator as evidenced by Creation. You should be mad at the people you
have listened to all your lives who have convinced you that God is not
there. Third - yes, I was gathering data. So what? No animals or humans
were harmed in the making of this motion picture :) Well, none except
myself for absorbing name-calling and insults. I got some information and
suffered a tiny injury in the process - sue me.
As far as me taking pride in my sinfulness, that's not the case. I can't
make any claims to holiness. I am as ignorant and stupid and sinful as they
come, despite my best efforts to the contrary. My apparent pride isn't
pride, but rather boasting about Christ, because although I am wretched, He
loves me and forgives me. That should make people happy, because if He can
love and forgive me, as well as reveal Himself to me - as dishonest,
arrogant and disingenuous as I am, how much more can He love and forgive and
allow Himself to be found by all of you, seeing as you are so honest, humble
and sincere?
Everyone has everything needed to know about how to find God, or at least to
make a start at it. In my posts, I have drawn the following conclusions:
1. I demonstrated that a thing can be hidden simply by saying it's not
there. Similarly, God can be hidden just by saying He's not there.
2. People hide the truth about the Creator by acknowledging anything but
the Invisible Creator, thus depriving themselves of natural revelation.
3. I demonstrated that people are free to act in any way they want, despite
any foreknowledge or even manipulation, which leaves them without the excuse
of "the omniscient God made me this way, so He can't possibly find fault."
What you do, you do of your own volition no matter what pressures are
applied. If you can act totally free in spite of my limited knowledge and
manipulations, you can at least be partially free in spite of God's total
knowledge and inherited sinfulness.
4. Christ is a Savior. Until someone can acknowledge their sins and
recognize the need for a Savior, they won't see Christ.
5. His offer of forgiveness extends to anyone who wants it. He will enable
anyone who believes to be saved.
And a final, new point:
6. You said: "Many "lost" people see no advantage to embracing what the
'Jerk for Jesus' has. It did no good for him, why bother?!? " - That's
just a smoke screen. People use any excuse convenient to not believe. It's
an excuse, and you know what is said of excuses. What's Christ supposed to
do for me anyway? Make me smart and likable? He was hated, beaten-up and
killed. To what "good for him" are you referring, anyway? It seems only
carnal things - such as likeability or non-jerkness - things that are carnal
and mean nothing. Christ does the opposite of satisfying carnal desires.
The only things I have that anyone needs are forgiveness of sins and eternal
life, neither of which are visible at the moment. The most carnal trait I
have that anyone could possibly see any use for is my assurance about God -
I don't wonder about Him - I know.
I think the saddest thing about all this is that I accomplished the goal of
people actually wanting to know how they can believe. Imparting belief is a
thing I can't do. But I know who can. Anyone who wants to can pray to
Christ even if they don't believe in Him. There's nothing stopping anyone
from getting on their knees every day and saying, "Christ, I don't believe
in you. If you exist, please help me to believe. I don't believe I'm a
sinner, but some dumb guy said I have to know that I'm a sinner to know you,
so convince me I'm a sinner and that I need you and your forgiveness."
Furthermore, there's nothing preventing anyone who wants to believe from
grabbing a Bible and reading the "Gospel According to John" which was
written specifically to impart belief.
Chris
.
