| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"oldwetdog" |
| Date: |
05 Nov 2003 02:30:38 AM |
| Object: |
RE: desiease of Evolution |
Logical Fallacies
used in support and defense of
The Theory of Evolution
I will give some selected quotes from "The Origin of Life," by Mr. George
Wald,
Scientific American August 1954, p 44-53.
At the end of the selected quotes, I will make some comments, and include
some
Logical Fallacies from a previous post
(Quote)
"About a century ago the question, How did life begin?, which has interested
men
throughout their history, (1a) reached an impasse. Up to that time two
answers
had been offered: one that life had been created supernaturally, the other
that
it arises continually from the nonliving. The first explanation lay outside
(1b)
science; the second was now shown to be untenable.
"Recently ways have been found again to consider the origin of life as a
scientific (2) problem--as an event within the order (3) of nature. In part
this
is the result of new information. But a theory never rises of itself,
however
rich and secure the facts. It is an act (4) of creation. "Our present ideas
in
this realm were first brought together in a clear and defensible (5)
argument by
the Russian biochemist A. I. Oparin in a book called "The Origin of Life,"
published in 1936.
"The attempt to understand how life originated raises a wide variety of
scientific questions, which lead in many and diverse directions and should
end
by casting light into many obscure corners. At the center of the enterprise
lies
the hope not only of explaining a great past event--important as that should
be--but
of showing that the explanation (6) is workable. If we can indeed come to
understand how a living organism arises from the nonliving, we should be
able (7)
to construct one--only of the simplest description, to be sure, but still
recognizably alive. This is so remote a possibility now that one scarcely
dares
to acknowledge it; but it is there nevertheless.
"One answer to the problem of how life originated is that it was created.
This
is an understandable confusion of nature with technology. (8)
"Most of the cultures we know contain mythical accounts of a supernatural
creation of life. (9)
"The more rational elements of society, however, tended to take a more
naturalistic view...." (10)
"But step by step, in a great controversy that spread over two centuries
this
belief was whittled away until nothing remained of it. (11)
"First the Italian Francesco Redi showed in the 17th century that meat
placed
under a screen, so that flies cannot lay their eggs on it, never develops
maggots. Then in the following century the Italian abbe Lazzano Spallanzani
showed that a nutritive broth, sealed off from the air while boiling, never
develops microorganisms, and hence never rots. Needham objected that by too
much
boiling Spallanzani had rendered the broth, and still more the air above it,
incompatible with life. Spallanzani could defend his broth; when he broke
the
seal of his flasks, allowing new air to rush in, the broth promptly began to
rot.
He could find no way, however, to show that the air in the sealed flask had
not
been vitiated. This problem finally was solved by Louis Pasteur in 1860,
with a
simple modification of Spallanzani's experiment. Pasteur too used a flask
containing boiling broth, but instead of sealing off the neck he drew it out
in
a long, S-shaped curve with its end open to the air. While molecules of air
could pass back and forth freely, the heavier particles of dust, bacteria
and
molds in the atmosphere were trapped on the walls of the curved neck and
only
rarely reached the broth. In such a flask the broth seldom was contaminated;
usually it remained clear and sterile indefinitely.
"This was only one of Pasteur's experiments. It is no easy matter to deal
with
so deeply ingrained and common-sense (12) a belief as that in spontaneous
generation. One can ask for nothing better in such a pass than a noisy and
stubborn opponent, and this Pasteur had in the naturalist Felix Pouchet,
whose
arguments before the French Academy of Sciences drove Pasteur to more and
more
rigorous experiments. When he had finished, nothing remained of the belief
in
spontaneous generation.
"The reasonable (12) view was to believe in spontaneous generation; the only
alternative, to believe in a single, primary act of supernatural creation.
There
is no third position. (13)
"For this reason many scientists a century ago chose to regard the belief in
spontaneous generation as a "philosophical necessity." (14) It is a symptom
of
the philosophical poverty of our time that this necessity is no longer
appreciated. Most modern biologists, having reviewed with satisfaction the
downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept
the
alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing.
"I think a scientist has no choice but to approach the origin of life
through a
hypothesis of spontaneous generation. (15)
"What the controversy reviewed above showed to be untenable is only the
belief
that living organisms arise spontaneously under present conditions. (16)
"We have now to face a somewhat different problem: how organisms may have
arisen
spontaneously under different conditions in some former period, granted that
they do so no longer. (17)
"One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this task to concede that the
spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible. (18)
"Yet here we are--as a result, I believe, of spontaneous generation. (19)
"It will help to digress for a moment to ask what one means by (20)
"impossible."
"With every event one can associate a probability--the chance that it will
occur.
(21) This is always a fraction, the number of times the event occurs in a
large
number of trials.
"We see therefore that it does not mean much to say that a very improbable
event
has never been observed. (22)
"A final aspect of our problem is very important. When we consider the
spontaneous origin of a living organism, this is not an event that need
happen
again and again. (23)
"The probability with which we are concerned is of a special kind; it is the
probability that an event occur at least once. (Italic emphasis his.) (24)
"However improbable we regard this event, or any of the steps which it
involves,
given enough time it will almost certainly happen at least once. And for
life as
we know it, with its capacity for growth and reproduction, once may be
enough. (25)
"Time is in fact the hero of the plot. The time with which we have to deal
is of
the order of two billion years. (26)
(End quote)
Comments:
1. a, Evolution is not new with Darwin. See: "The waters contained in
themselves
the seed of life" LAROUSSE WORLD MYTHOLOGY, trans. Gremal, Pierre, New York:
Putnam, 1981, p 65.
"Chaos of primeval waters... gods of chaos..." A History of the Sciences,
Stephen F, Mason New York: Collier Books, 1962 p 15-23
Thales (624-546 B.C., for example, influenced by traditional myths which
derived
all things from the primordial waters..."
"Ionian School ...Materialistic Nouism and Evolution were taught in 5th and
6th
century B.C. Greece."
Empedocles of Agrigentum taught that "...eyes and legs joined together by
accident..."
Jacques Maritain, "Introduction to Philosophy" New York: Sheed & Ward, Inc.
1947
p 47-50
1. b, "The first explanation lay outside science . . ." Mr. Wald
acknowledges
that some subjects lie outside Science. Now the question is, How do we
determine
the boundaries of Science?
2. What is Science? According to Dr. Jerry Bergman, "Science" is a method of
obtaining knowledge by: First, Observation. Second, Classification. Third,
Hypothesis. Fourth, Tests.
Bergman, Jerry, "What Is Science", CREATION RESEARCH SOCIETY QUARTERLY, V.
20, N.
1, June 1983, p. 39.
That is, Science is the study of that which is tangible and measurable by
controlled and repeatable experiment. The inherent nature of Science limits
it
to things which can be perceived by human senses (or instruments which
amplify
them) and to things which it can confine, control and manipulate in
contrived
and isolated tests and experiments.
To know what Science is, is to know what Science is not. If scientists
cannot
see or touch an object or get it to cooperate in repeatable experiments and
tests, it cannot be the subject of Scientific study. If scientists cannot
demonstrate that a thing has tangible attributes, they cannot prove its
existence. If scientists cannot show tangible evidence of the non-existence
of
an object, rather than just a lack of evidence of its existence, they cannot
prove its nonexistence by the scientific method. Scientists can only
demonstrate,
in this case, that Science cannot treat the subject: it is rightfully the
property of Philosophy or Theodicy.
Can the theory of evolution be tested and proven by the "scientific" method?
No.
3. Mr. Wald is suggesting that "Nature" or the "natural order" arose without
God.
He is using an unfounded (and unspoken) assumption, that "Nature" is a
result of
"Big Bang" and arose without Special Creation.
Begging the question: assuming as true at the outset that which must be
proved
as true
Forced Hypothesis: failure to consider other explanations for the evidence;
lack
of sufficient evidence to draw hypothesis
4. Mr. Wald admits that he believes in, and recognizes, "an act of
creation."
This he will accept of man; and so reveals that it is not "an act of
creation"
he cannot and will not accept. He reveals that his reluctance is that a
Being
other than man is able to create.
5. Whether it is "defensible" or not is not the question. By the misuse of
logic,
the misinterpretation of some evidence and the outright rejection of other
evidence, a hypothesis, not provable by the Scientific method, may be
"defensible"
however wrong it is.
6. Mr. Wald admits that the "theory of Evolution" has not yet been proven
"workable."
Hasty conclusion: reaching a conclusion based on relevant but insufficient
evidence
The evidence may seem relevant, since Biologists discuss the bones of
animals
that lived in the past. What is not relevant is that the bones might reveal
"the
origin of life."
Non sequitur: conclusion has no logical connection to evidence offered
The bones of the dead do not reveal the origin of life.
7. One must ask, What is the difference between 'construct' (as to build or
make
something which does not exist) and 'create?' They are synonyms. Mr. Wald
was
very careful not to use the word "create" here. Why? Could it be that while
he
will not admit that a "Supreme Being" can "Create," He believes man can?
Again,
he is not denying the act of creation; he is denying a Supreme Being did, or
can,
perform that act. Having rejected the idea that a Supreme Being can Create,
Mr.
Wald now suggests that he, or other biologists, may soon have the ability to
"construct"
life. Utterly amazing.
8. First, The belief in Creation is seven thousand years mature, and
'technology"
in not yet two hundred. Mr. Wald stoops to use of ridicule: belittling those
who
believe in God and His act of Creation by describing them as "confused."
There
are at least three variations of this practice:
Loaded language: abusively labeling persons or groups with sexual, racial,
ethnic, or other prejudicial terms
Ad hominem: an irrelevant attack on an individual's character that appeals
to
prejudice or emotion
Straw man: altering or exaggerating an opponent's position for the sake of
attacking it
9. Mr. Wald would rob the Scripture of its credibility by calling it "myth."
Poisoning the well: tainting or attacking information before presenting it
to an
audience; coercing the audience to accept or reject a position on an idea
before
presenting the idea
10. Again, ridicule; by the minor premise: He compliments those who accept
spontaneous generation by calling them "rational," and thus implies that
anyone
else is "not rational." See # 8.
11. This is to the glory of God. I will have more to say about this later.
12. This is the use of ridicule, "common sense, unreasonable." See # 8.
13. Mr. Wald acknowledges his dilemma.
14. He calls it a matter of choice, a "philosophical necessity."
15. Mr. Wald states that he "has no choice but to approach the origin of
life
through a hypothesis of spontaneous generation." That is, due to
"philosophical
necessity," he rejects the alternative possibility, and makes his choice to
believe in evolution.
Suppressed evidence: failure to present information relevant to the issue
16. Thus begins the shift to an un-provable hypothesis. This begins with an
incorrect conclusion: (". . . untenable is only the belief that living
organisms
arise spontaneously under present conditions.")
Actually, what the experiments of Pasteur proved is that spontaneous
generation
is impossible under any conditions.
17. Here is the full shift: "...how organisms may have arisen spontaneously
under different conditions in some former period." How can it be
scientifically
demonstrated what "different conditions" might have or could have existed?
How
can a scientist test or demonstrate something "supposed" or "imagined" to
have
occurred under unknown circumstances a thousand (let alone, a billion) years
ago?
It is a "Scientific" impossibility, and therefore biologists in particular,
and
those scientists who support this theory, have severed themselves from truth
and
reality.
Sir Frances Beacon said, "When philosophy is cut off from its roots in
experience, where it was born, it dies." Kepler said, "If a scientist's
hypothesis fit into a certain metaphysical theory, fine; but if not, then it
is
the metaphysics which must go."
Mason, Stephen F., A HISTORY OF THE SCIENCES New York: Collier Books, Inc.,
1962,
pp. 11-24, 136, 142.
18. Mr. Wald states, "The spontaneous generation of a living organism is
impossible." (* i.)
19. Once again, regardless of the proven impossibility, he states his choice
to
believe otherwise.
Begging the question: assuming as true at the outset that which must be
proved
as true
20. It is a practice of sophistry to debate the meanings of terms, then,
somewhere in the debate, to switch the meaning of terms.
Equivocation: ambiguous or inexact statements; changing the meaning of a key
term in the middle of an argument
21. Here is his twist of the meaning... ("With every event one can associate
a
probability ...") Without hesitation he abandons the literal meaning of
"impossible."
He says, "With every event..." However, with "impossible," there are no
events.
The Truth is that for impossible events, there is no probability.
22. Here again he demonstrates his shift to sophistry and the confusion of
terms,
and goes from "impossible" to "improbable." He does this without tangible or
objective evidence.
Statistical fallacy: the use of unprovable statistics as fact; the use of
statistics that are incomplete or that present a biased picture/result
Faulty sampling: a sample (statistic) too small to be reliable or a sample
that
is not representative of what it's supposed to measure.
Mr. Wald has employed both fallacies. First, the statistics he gives are not
proven, they are manufactured (i.e., "created") by him for his purpose, and
do in
fact "present a biased picture." Second, the lifetime of humankind, or the
history of the science of probability, is too small when compared (in his
own
words) to the time scale in his sample. In fact, he has no sample and no
verifiable proof of his time scale, only another unproven premise.
23. Here is an unsupported hypothesis: How can he support the belief that
the
very first living cell would have, or could have, survived to reproduce?
There
is no evidence on which to base this assumption. However, for those who
refute
the theory of evolution to argue this point is to grant the first and wander
off
into rabbit trails. The point is that there is no evidence that any living
thing,
single cell or other wise, has ever arisen from nothing.
Red herring: introducing a side issue or an irrelevant issue to divert
attention
from the real issue
24, 25, 26. He bases the possible success, of spontaneous generation arising
to
evolution, upon time. That time can make the impossible become possible, and
then inevitable, is the first unsupported and unproven foundation of
evolution.
The next unsupportable premise, which must follow the first in less than a
heartbeat, is that there has been enough time.
Non sequitur: conclusion has no logical connection to evidence offered
Questionable cause: a faulty cause/effect relationship
Questionable premise: accepting a proposition or concept without having good
reason to accept it
Proponents of Evolution and Big Bang theories know that their unproven
hypotheses are founded upon a 'billions of years' time scale, and they will
defend their belief to the death: ours.
The theory of evolution is only proven by--
Circular reasoning: proving a premise by rewording the premise in the
conclusion;
using part of all of a question as the answer to the question
To prove this, ask anyone who accepts the theory of evolution to prove it
"without
referring to the theory of evolution." They cannot. There is no proof
outside
the theory of evolution to prove it. It can only be proven by referring to
the
wrong conclusions and unfounded assumptions contained within it.
--*--
(* i. Impossible, im·pos·si·ble, adj.
Incapable of having existence or of occurring. Not capable of being
accomplished:
an impossible goal.
\Im*pos"si*ble\, a. [F., fr. L. impossibilis; pref. im- not + possibilis
possible. See Possible.] Not possible; incapable of being done, of existing,
etc.;
unattainable in the nature of things, or by means at command; insuperably
difficult under the circumstances; absurd or impracticable; not feasible.
With
men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. --Matt. xix.
26.
Without faith it is impossible to please him. --Heb. xi. 6.
Impossible quantity (Math.), an imaginary quantity. See #22.
Please allow me to offer two examples of the meaning of "impossible." First:
take a die as used in various games. The die has six spots, numbering the
sides
of the die from one to six. It is possible in any fair test to roll all the
numbers from one to six. The number of rolls and the time limit can be as
many
or as long as required. We may add constraints or requirements such that the
numbers must be rolled in consecutive order, or all odd numbers must be
rolled
first. No matter, given time the possible can be achieved. However, it is
impossible to roll a nine. Why? There is no number nine on the die. Let us
extend the number of allowed rolls to infinite, and the time limit to 4
billion
years. Is it now more probable that we will roll a number nine? No,
extending
the time limit does not change the definition of the term "impossible," nor
will
it allow the die to mutate so that it contains nine numbers.
Second: Stand on a chair. Lean forward so that you balance on your toes.
Begin
to flap your arms in a bird-like manor. Flap your arms faster and faster
until
you begin to feel light on your toes, now push off and fly like a bird. You
may
need to practice flying like a bird until you get it right. You may need to
close your eyes and meditate on flying like an eagle, and believing in your
ability. You have plenty of time--the rest of your life--so feel free to
practice until you achieve flight. It is "impossible" for a man, unassisted
by
his mechanisms and technologies, under his own power, to fly like an eagle,
sparrow or butterfly. Bird-like flight is impossible for human kind
regardless
of the number of attempts, of the years spent in the attempt, of the belief
or
faith or a positive mental attitude.
Pasteur demonstrated that life cannot arise from a sterile substance, and
this
remains true.
It is impossible for life to arise from nothing, or from a sterile medium,
as
proven by Pasteur. It does not matter that the medium is altered from one
broth
to another. It matters not at all that the liquid consist of these chemicals
or
those, or some other formula. Changing the atmosphere from oxygen to
hydrogen or
helium will not change the outcome. Reconciling the temperature of the
broth, or
allowing a spark of lightning, will not change the results. Standing guard
over
the sterile broth and watching hopefully for hours or years or millions or
billions of years will not change the reality that life cannot arise from
lifelessness.
What is possible, is. What is not possible, is not, and cannot be.
To be continued.
http://www.xprt.net/servitum/main/Logic.html
.
|
|
| User: "flora macdonald" |
|
| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
05 Nov 2003 12:29:00 PM |
|
|
"oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net> wrote in message news:<vqhd9hjsp4em07@corp.supernews.com>...
Logical Fallacies
used in support and defense of
The Theory of Evolution
I will give some selected quotes from "The Origin of Life," by Mr. George
Wald,
Scientific American August 1954, p 44-53.
At the end of the selected quotes, I will make some comments, and include
some
Logical Fallacies from a previous post
(Quote)
"About a century ago the question, How did life begin?, which has interested
men
throughout their history, (1a) reached an impasse. Up to that time two
answers
had been offered: one that life had been created supernaturally, the other
that
it arises continually from the nonliving. The first explanation lay outside
(1b)
science; the second was now shown to be untenable.
"Recently ways have been found again to consider the origin of life as a
scientific (2) problem--as an event within the order (3) of nature. In part
this
is the result of new information. But a theory never rises of itself,
however
rich and secure the facts. It is an act (4) of creation. "Our present ideas
in
this realm were first brought together in a clear and defensible (5)
argument by
the Russian biochemist A. I. Oparin in a book called "The Origin of Life,"
published in 1936.
"The attempt to understand how life originated raises a wide variety of
scientific questions, which lead in many and diverse directions and should
end
by casting light into many obscure corners. At the center of the enterprise
lies
the hope not only of explaining a great past event--important as that should
be--but
of showing that the explanation (6) is workable. If we can indeed come to
understand how a living organism arises from the nonliving, we should be
able (7)
to construct one--only of the simplest description, to be sure, but still
recognizably alive. This is so remote a possibility now that one scarcely
dares
to acknowledge it; but it is there nevertheless.
"One answer to the problem of how life originated is that it was created.
This
is an understandable confusion of nature with technology. (8)
"Most of the cultures we know contain mythical accounts of a supernatural
creation of life. (9)
"The more rational elements of society, however, tended to take a more
naturalistic view...." (10)
"But step by step, in a great controversy that spread over two centuries
this
belief was whittled away until nothing remained of it. (11)
"First the Italian Francesco Redi showed in the 17th century that meat
placed
under a screen, so that flies cannot lay their eggs on it, never develops
maggots. Then in the following century the Italian abbe Lazzano Spallanzani
showed that a nutritive broth, sealed off from the air while boiling, never
develops microorganisms, and hence never rots. Needham objected that by too
much
boiling Spallanzani had rendered the broth, and still more the air above it,
incompatible with life. Spallanzani could defend his broth; when he broke
the
seal of his flasks, allowing new air to rush in, the broth promptly began to
rot.
He could find no way, however, to show that the air in the sealed flask had
not
been vitiated. This problem finally was solved by Louis Pasteur in 1860,
with a
simple modification of Spallanzani's experiment. Pasteur too used a flask
containing boiling broth, but instead of sealing off the neck he drew it out
in
a long, S-shaped curve with its end open to the air. While molecules of air
could pass back and forth freely, the heavier particles of dust, bacteria
and
molds in the atmosphere were trapped on the walls of the curved neck and
only
rarely reached the broth. In such a flask the broth seldom was contaminated;
usually it remained clear and sterile indefinitely.
"This was only one of Pasteur's experiments. It is no easy matter to deal
with
so deeply ingrained and common-sense (12) a belief as that in spontaneous
generation. One can ask for nothing better in such a pass than a noisy and
stubborn opponent, and this Pasteur had in the naturalist Felix Pouchet,
whose
arguments before the French Academy of Sciences drove Pasteur to more and
more
rigorous experiments. When he had finished, nothing remained of the belief
in
spontaneous generation.
"The reasonable (12) view was to believe in spontaneous generation; the only
alternative, to believe in a single, primary act of supernatural creation.
There
is no third position. (13)
"For this reason many scientists a century ago chose to regard the belief in
spontaneous generation as a "philosophical necessity." (14) It is a symptom
of
the philosophical poverty of our time that this necessity is no longer
appreciated. Most modern biologists, having reviewed with satisfaction the
downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept
the
alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing.
"I think a scientist has no choice but to approach the origin of life
through a
hypothesis of spontaneous generation. (15)
"What the controversy reviewed above showed to be untenable is only the
belief
that living organisms arise spontaneously under present conditions. (16)
"We have now to face a somewhat different problem: how organisms may have
arisen
spontaneously under different conditions in some former period, granted that
they do so no longer. (17)
"One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this task to concede that the
spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible. (18)
"Yet here we are--as a result, I believe, of spontaneous generation. (19)
"It will help to digress for a moment to ask what one means by (20)
"impossible."
"With every event one can associate a probability--the chance that it will
occur.
(21) This is always a fraction, the number of times the event occurs in a
large
number of trials.
"We see therefore that it does not mean much to say that a very improbable
event
has never been observed. (22)
"A final aspect of our problem is very important. When we consider the
spontaneous origin of a living organism, this is not an event that need
happen
again and again. (23)
"The probability with which we are concerned is of a special kind; it is the
probability that an event occur at least once. (Italic emphasis his.) (24)
"However improbable we regard this event, or any of the steps which it
involves,
given enough time it will almost certainly happen at least once. And for
life as
we know it, with its capacity for growth and reproduction, once may be
enough. (25)
"Time is in fact the hero of the plot. The time with which we have to deal
is of
the order of two billion years. (26)
(End quote)
Comments:
1. a, Evolution is not new with Darwin. See: "The waters contained in
themselves
the seed of life" LAROUSSE WORLD MYTHOLOGY, trans. Gremal, Pierre, New York:
Putnam, 1981, p 65.
"Chaos of primeval waters... gods of chaos..." A History of the Sciences,
Stephen F, Mason New York: Collier Books, 1962 p 15-23
Thales (624-546 B.C., for example, influenced by traditional myths which
derived
all things from the primordial waters..."
"Ionian School ...Materialistic Nouism and Evolution were taught in 5th and
6th
century B.C. Greece."
Empedocles of Agrigentum taught that "...eyes and legs joined together by
accident..."
Jacques Maritain, "Introduction to Philosophy" New York: Sheed & Ward, Inc.
1947
p 47-50
1. b, "The first explanation lay outside science . . ." Mr. Wald
acknowledges
that some subjects lie outside Science. Now the question is, How do we
determine
the boundaries of Science?
2. What is Science? According to Dr. Jerry Bergman, "Science" is a method of
obtaining knowledge by: First, Observation. Second, Classification. Third,
Hypothesis. Fourth, Tests.
Bergman, Jerry, "What Is Science", CREATION RESEARCH SOCIETY QUARTERLY, V.
20, N.
1, June 1983, p. 39.
That is, Science is the study of that which is tangible and measurable by
controlled and repeatable experiment. The inherent nature of Science limits
it
to things which can be perceived by human senses (or instruments which
amplify
them) and to things which it can confine, control and manipulate in
contrived
and isolated tests and experiments.
To know what Science is, is to know what Science is not. If scientists
cannot
see or touch an object or get it to cooperate in repeatable experiments and
tests, it cannot be the subject of Scientific study. If scientists cannot
demonstrate that a thing has tangible attributes, they cannot prove its
existence. If scientists cannot show tangible evidence of the non-existence
of
an object, rather than just a lack of evidence of its existence, they cannot
prove its nonexistence by the scientific method. Scientists can only
demonstrate,
in this case, that Science cannot treat the subject: it is rightfully the
property of Philosophy or Theodicy.
Can the theory of evolution be tested and proven by the "scientific" method?
No.
3. Mr. Wald is suggesting that "Nature" or the "natural order" arose without
God.
He is using an unfounded (and unspoken) assumption, that "Nature" is a
result of
"Big Bang" and arose without Special Creation.
Begging the question: assuming as true at the outset that which must be
proved
as true
Forced Hypothesis: failure to consider other explanations for the evidence;
lack
of sufficient evidence to draw hypothesis
4. Mr. Wald admits that he believes in, and recognizes, "an act of
creation."
This he will accept of man; and so reveals that it is not "an act of
creation"
he cannot and will not accept. He reveals that his reluctance is that a
Being
other than man is able to create.
5. Whether it is "defensible" or not is not the question. By the misuse of
logic,
the misinterpretation of some evidence and the outright rejection of other
evidence, a hypothesis, not provable by the Scientific method, may be
"defensible"
however wrong it is.
6. Mr. Wald admits that the "theory of Evolution" has not yet been proven
"workable."
Hasty conclusion: reaching a conclusion based on relevant but insufficient
evidence
The evidence may seem relevant, since Biologists discuss the bones of
animals
that lived in the past. What is not relevant is that the bones might reveal
"the
origin of life."
Non sequitur: conclusion has no logical connection to evidence offered
The bones of the dead do not reveal the origin of life.
7. One must ask, What is the difference between 'construct' (as to build or
make
something which does not exist) and 'create?' They are synonyms. Mr. Wald
was
very careful not to use the word "create" here. Why? Could it be that while
he
will not admit that a "Supreme Being" can "Create," He believes man can?
Again,
he is not denying the act of creation; he is denying a Supreme Being did, or
can,
perform that act. Having rejected the idea that a Supreme Being can Create,
Mr.
Wald now suggests that he, or other biologists, may soon have the ability to
"construct"
life. Utterly amazing.
8. First, The belief in Creation is seven thousand years mature, and
'technology"
in not yet two hundred. Mr. Wald stoops to use of ridicule: belittling those
who
believe in God and His act of Creation by describing them as "confused."
There
are at least three variations of this practice:
Loaded language: abusively labeling persons or groups with sexual, racial,
ethnic, or other prejudicial terms
Ad hominem: an irrelevant attack on an individual's character that appeals
to
prejudice or emotion
Straw man: altering or exaggerating an opponent's position for the sake of
attacking it
9. Mr. Wald would rob the Scripture of its credibility by calling it "myth."
Poisoning the well: tainting or attacking information before presenting it
to an
audience; coercing the audience to accept or reject a position on an idea
before
presenting the idea
10. Again, ridicule; by the minor premise: He compliments those who accept
spontaneous generation by calling them "rational," and thus implies that
anyone
else is "not rational." See # 8.
11. This is to the glory of God. I will have more to say about this later.
12. This is the use of ridicule, "common sense, unreasonable." See # 8.
13. Mr. Wald acknowledges his dilemma.
14. He calls it a matter of choice, a "philosophical necessity."
15. Mr. Wald states that he "has no choice but to approach the origin of
life
through a hypothesis of spontaneous generation." That is, due to
"philosophical
necessity," he rejects the alternative possibility, and makes his choice to
believe in evolution.
Suppressed evidence: failure to present information relevant to the issue
16. Thus begins the shift to an un-provable hypothesis. This begins with an
incorrect conclusion: (". . . untenable is only the belief that living
organisms
arise spontaneously under present conditions.")
Actually, what the experiments of Pasteur proved is that spontaneous
generation
is impossible under any conditions.
17. Here is the full shift: "...how organisms may have arisen spontaneously
under different conditions in some former period." How can it be
scientifically
demonstrated what "different conditions" might have or could have existed?
How
can a scientist test or demonstrate something "supposed" or "imagined" to
have
occurred under unknown circumstances a thousand (let alone, a billion) years
ago?
It is a "Scientific" impossibility, and therefore biologists in particular,
and
those scientists who support this theory, have severed themselves from truth
and
reality.
Sir Frances Beacon said, "When philosophy is cut off from its roots in
experience, where it was born, it dies." Kepler said, "If a scientist's
hypothesis fit into a certain metaphysical theory, fine; but if not, then it
is
the metaphysics which must go."
Mason, Stephen F., A HISTORY OF THE SCIENCES New York: Collier Books, Inc.,
1962,
pp. 11-24, 136, 142.
18. Mr. Wald states, "The spontaneous generation of a living organism is
impossible." (* i.)
19. Once again, regardless of the proven impossibility, he states his choice
to
believe otherwise.
Begging the question: assuming as true at the outset that which must be
proved
as true
20. It is a practice of sophistry to debate the meanings of terms, then,
somewhere in the debate, to switch the meaning of terms.
Equivocation: ambiguous or inexact statements; changing the meaning of a key
term in the middle of an argument
21. Here is his twist of the meaning... ("With every event one can associate
a
probability ...") Without hesitation he abandons the literal meaning of
"impossible."
He says, "With every event..." However, with "impossible," there are no
events.
The Truth is that for impossible events, there is no probability.
22. Here again he demonstrates his shift to sophistry and the confusion of
terms,
and goes from "impossible" to "improbable." He does this without tangible or
objective evidence.
Statistical fallacy: the use of unprovable statistics as fact; the use of
statistics that are incomplete or that present a biased picture/result
Faulty sampling: a sample (statistic) too small to be reliable or a sample
that
is not representative of what it's supposed to measure.
Mr. Wald has employed both fallacies. First, the statistics he gives are not
proven, they are manufactured (i.e., "created") by him for his purpose, and
do in
fact "present a biased picture." Second, the lifetime of humankind, or the
history of the science of probability, is too small when compared (in his
own
words) to the time scale in his sample. In fact, he has no sample and no
verifiable proof of his time scale, only another unproven premise.
23. Here is an unsupported hypothesis: How can he support the belief that
the
very first living cell would have, or could have, survived to reproduce?
There
is no evidence on which to base this assumption. However, for those who
refute
the theory of evolution to argue this point is to grant the first and wander
off
into rabbit trails. The point is that there is no evidence that any living
thing,
single cell or other wise, has ever arisen from nothing.
Red herring: introducing a side issue or an irrelevant issue to divert
attention
from the real issue
24, 25, 26. He bases the possible success, of spontaneous generation arising
to
evolution, upon time. That time can make the impossible become possible, and
then inevitable, is the first unsupported and unproven foundation of
evolution.
The next unsupportable premise, which must follow the first in less than a
heartbeat, is that there has been enough time.
Non sequitur: conclusion has no logical connection to evidence offered
Questionable cause: a faulty cause/effect relationship
Questionable premise: accepting a proposition or concept without having good
reason to accept it
Proponents of Evolution and Big Bang theories know that their unproven
hypotheses are founded upon a 'billions of years' time scale, and they will
defend their belief to the death: ours.
The theory of evolution is only proven by--
Circular reasoning: proving a premise by rewording the premise in the
conclusion;
using part of all of a question as the answer to the question
To prove this, ask anyone who accepts the theory of evolution to prove it
"without
referring to the theory of evolution." They cannot. There is no proof
outside
the theory of evolution to prove it. It can only be proven by referring to
the
wrong conclusions and unfounded assumptions contained within it.
--*--
(* i. Impossible, im·pos·si·ble, adj.
Incapable of having existence or of occurring. Not capable of being
accomplished:
an impossible goal.
\Im*pos"si*ble\, a. [F., fr. L. impossibilis; pref. im- not + possibilis
possible. See Possible.] Not possible; incapable of being done, of existing,
etc.;
unattainable in the nature of things, or by means at command; insuperably
difficult under the circumstances; absurd or impracticable; not feasible.
With
men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. --Matt. xix.
26.
Without faith it is impossible to please him. --Heb. xi. 6.
Impossible quantity (Math.), an imaginary quantity. See #22.
Please allow me to offer two examples of the meaning of "impossible." First:
take a die as used in various games. The die has six spots, numbering the
sides
of the die from one to six. It is possible in any fair test to roll all the
numbers from one to six. The number of rolls and the time limit can be as
many
or as long as required. We may add constraints or requirements such that the
numbers must be rolled in consecutive order, or all odd numbers must be
rolled
first. No matter, given time the possible can be achieved. However, it is
impossible to roll a nine. Why? There is no number nine on the die. Let us
extend the number of allowed rolls to infinite, and the time limit to 4
billion
years. Is it now more probable that we will roll a number nine? No,
extending
the time limit does not change the definition of the term "impossible," nor
will
it allow the die to mutate so that it contains nine numbers.
Second: Stand on a chair. Lean forward so that you balance on your toes.
Begin
to flap your arms in a bird-like manor. Flap your arms faster and faster
until
you begin to feel light on your toes, now push off and fly like a bird. You
may
need to practice flying like a bird until you get it right. You may need to
close your eyes and meditate on flying like an eagle, and believing in your
ability. You have plenty of time--the rest of your life--so feel free to
practice until you achieve flight. It is "impossible" for a man, unassisted
by
his mechanisms and technologies, under his own power, to fly like an eagle,
sparrow or butterfly. Bird-like flight is impossible for human kind
regardless
of the number of attempts, of the years spent in the attempt, of the belief
or
faith or a positive mental attitude.
Pasteur demonstrated that life cannot arise from a sterile substance, and
this
remains true.
It is impossible for life to arise from nothing, or from a sterile medium,
as
proven by Pasteur. It does not matter that the medium is altered from one
broth
to another. It matters not at all that the liquid consist of these chemicals
or
those, or some other formula. Changing the atmosphere from oxygen to
hydrogen or
helium will not change the outcome. Reconciling the temperature of the
broth, or
allowing a spark of lightning, will not change the results. Standing guard
over
the sterile broth and watching hopefully for hours or years or millions or
billions of years will not change the reality that life cannot arise from
lifelessness.
What is possible, is. What is not possible, is not, and cannot be.
To be continued.
http://www.xprt.net/servitum/main/Logic.html
The problem with creationism is that it postulates the existence of a
Creatrix.
Science has no need for that hypothesis. It merely complicates the
study of origins.
If She exists, it is very clear that she does not interfere in the
known universe.
Where does She come from? You probably say that She existed for all
time, but it is more logical to say that the universe existed for all
time.
What happened before the Big Bang?
We do not know yet. You may postulate any hypothesis you please
including the existence of a Creatrix. It still remains a hypothesis.
Flora
.
|
|
|
| User: "oldwetdog" |
|
| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
05 Nov 2003 03:40:04 PM |
|
|
"flora macdonald" <msflora99@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b87d8d25.0311051029.4b5a0a2b@posting.google.com...
"oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net> wrote in message
news:<vqhd9hjsp4em07@corp.supernews.com>...
Logical Fallacies
used in support and defense of
The Theory of Evolution
<snip>
What is possible, is. What is not possible, is not, and cannot be.
To be continued.
http://www.xprt.net/servitum/main/Logic.html
The problem with creationism is that it postulates the existence of a
Creatrix.
Everything which exists proves creation, and if you prefer to call the
Creator 'she' feel free...
Science has no need for that hypothesis. It merely complicates the
study of origins.
If She exists, it is very clear that she does not interfere in the
known universe.
Where did you get this wrong idea? Do you know Her, and did She tell you
this?
Where does She come from? You probably say that She existed for all
time, but it is more logical to say that the universe existed for all
time.
What happened before the Big Bang?
We do not know yet. You may postulate any hypothesis you please
including the existence of a Creatrix. It still remains a hypothesis.
Flora
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ron Baker" |
|
| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
05 Nov 2003 04:11:17 PM |
|
|
"oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net> wrote in message
news:vqirhomq0si3f7@corp.supernews.com...
"flora macdonald" <msflora99@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b87d8d25.0311051029.4b5a0a2b@posting.google.com...
"oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net> wrote in message
news:<vqhd9hjsp4em07@corp.supernews.com>...
<>
If She exists, it is very clear that she does not interfere in the
known universe.
Where did you get this wrong idea? Do you know Her, and did She tell you
this?
How does He/She interfere (intervene or act) in the known universe?
.
|
|
|
| User: "flora macdonald" |
|
| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
06 Nov 2003 01:00:19 AM |
|
|
"Ron Baker" <rbaker4@msnn.com> wrote in message news:<9Aeqb.54302$Ub4.34786@twister.socal.rr.com>...
"oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net> wrote in message
news:vqirhomq0si3f7@corp.supernews.com...
"flora macdonald" <msflora99@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b87d8d25.0311051029.4b5a0a2b@posting.google.com...
"oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net> wrote in message
news:<vqhd9hjsp4em07@corp.supernews.com>...
<>
If She exists, it is very clear that she does not interfere in the
known universe.
Where did you get this wrong idea? Do you know Her, and did She tell you
this?
How does He/She interfere (intervene or act) in the known universe?
If She exists and set off the Big Bang, then She is away making other
universes or whatever, because there is no evidence for her presence
in this one.
Flora
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "flora macdonald" |
|
| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
06 Nov 2003 12:56:18 AM |
|
|
"oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net> wrote in message news:<vqirhomq0si3f7@corp.supernews.com>...
"flora macdonald" <msflora99@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b87d8d25.0311051029.4b5a0a2b@posting.google.com...
"oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net> wrote in message
news:<vqhd9hjsp4em07@corp.supernews.com>...
Logical Fallacies
used in support and defense of
The Theory of Evolution
<snip>
What is possible, is. What is not possible, is not, and cannot be.
To be continued.
http://www.xprt.net/servitum/main/Logic.html
The problem with creationism is that it postulates the existence of a
Creatrix.
Everything which exists proves creation, and if you prefer to call the
Creator 'she' feel free...
Science has no need for that hypothesis. It merely complicates the
study of origins.
If She exists, it is very clear that she does not interfere in the
known universe.
Where did you get this wrong idea? Do you know Her, and did She tell you
this?
There is no evidence that She ever interfered. She remains a
hypothesis and may or may not exist.
Flora
Where does She come from? You probably say that She existed for all
time, but it is more logical to say that the universe existed for all
time.
What happened before the Big Bang?
We do not know yet. You may postulate any hypothesis you please
including the existence of a Creatrix. It still remains a hypothesis.
Flora
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
05 Nov 2003 09:55:41 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:40:04 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
Everything which exists proves creation
Care to explain that? My computer doesn't prove any creation other
than its own, by people. That alone totally refutes your assertion.
--
"Every sensible man, every honest man, must hold the christian sect in horror. 'But what
shall we substitute in its place?' you say. What? A ferocious animal has sucked the
blood of my relatives. I tell you to rid yourselves of this beast and you ask me what
you shall put in its place?" - Voltaire
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
|
|
|
| User: "oldwetdog" |
|
| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
05 Nov 2003 11:30:36 PM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:kfhjqvcsqaja3hddjtp7v9q346df44p4mm@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:40:04 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
Everything which exists proves creation
Care to explain that? My computer doesn't prove any creation other
What? Was your computer Created? You mean to confess that it did not rise of
itself from nothing?
Duh! Tell me, Dude, That does not prove Creation?
than its own, by people. That alone totally refutes your assertion.
--
I proves my assertion, but you refuse to accept Truth.
Sad, that...
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kermit" |
|
| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
07 Nov 2003 10:44:15 PM |
|
|
"oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net> wrote in message news:<vqjn3v7mgi9sf6@corp.supernews.com>...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:kfhjqvcsqaja3hddjtp7v9q346df44p4mm@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:40:04 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
Everything which exists proves creation
Care to explain that? My computer doesn't prove any creation other
What? Was your computer Created? You mean to confess that it did not rise of
itself from nothing?
Duh! Tell me, Dude, That does not prove Creation?
than its own, by people. That alone totally refutes your assertion.
--
I proves my assertion, but you refuse to accept Truth.
Sad, that...
Are you saying that *people made the universe?
--- Kermit
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
06 Nov 2003 09:19:52 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:30:36 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:kfhjqvcsqaja3hddjtp7v9q346df44p4mm@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:40:04 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
Everything which exists proves creation
Care to explain that? My computer doesn't prove any creation other
What? Was your computer Created? You mean to confess that it did not rise of
itself from nothing?
Which has what to do with the origin of the universe?
Oh, nothing.
Duh! Tell me, Dude, That does not prove Creation?
Nothing proves creation.
than its own, by people. That alone totally refutes your assertion.
I proves my assertion, but you refuse to accept Truth.
Of course I refuse to accept Truth. I believe in reality.
Sad, that...
.... that you believe in a magik sky daddy? Yes, it is.
--
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social
ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he
had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
-Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "LP" |
|
| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
06 Nov 2003 02:32:17 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:30:36 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:kfhjqvcsqaja3hddjtp7v9q346df44p4mm@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:40:04 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
Everything which exists proves creation
Care to explain that? My computer doesn't prove any creation other
What? Was your computer Created? You mean to confess that it did not rise of
itself from nothing?
Duh! Tell me, Dude, That does not prove Creation?
than its own, by people. That alone totally refutes your assertion.
--
I proves my assertion, but you refuse to accept Truth.
Sad, that...
Evidence for Jury-Rigged Design in Nature
Copyright © 1992-1993 by
Chris Colby, Loren Petrich and others
This is a post that presents evidence to back up my claim that there
is evidence of jury-rigged design in nature. The first part is mine,
the rest is assembled from contributions of others. This is extremely
long, but interesting (IMHO). I just sort of collected all the posts
below mine and I don't have the others permission to post them. But, I
would suspect they don't mind (or they wouldn't have posted it in the
first place. In any case, I'd like to thank all the contributors to
this almost Meritt-like gargantuan post. (Loren Petrich, Matt Wiener,
Herb Huston, Paul Keck and Keith Doyle)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many organisms show features of appallingly bad design. This is
because evolution via natural selection cannot construct traits from
scratch; new traits must be modifications of previously existing
traits. This is called historical constraint. A few examples of bad
design imposed by historical constraint:
In parthenogenetic lizards of the genus Cnenidophorus, only females
exist. Fertility in these lizards is increased when another lizard
engages in pseudomale behavior and attempts to copulate with the first
lizard. These lizards evolved from a sexual species so this behaviour
makes some sense. The hormones for reproduction were likely originally
stimulated by sexual behaviour. Now, although they are
parthenogenetic, simulated sexual behaviour increases fertility. Fake
sex in a parthenogenetic species doesn't sound like good design to me.
In African locust, the nerve cells that connect to the wings originate
in the abdomen, even though the wings are in the thorax. This strange
"wiring" is the result of the abdomen nerves being co-opted for use in
flight. A good designer would not have flight nerves travel down the
ventral nerve cord past their target, then backtrack through the
organism to where they are needed. Using more materials than necessary
is not good design.
In human males, the urethra passes right through the prostate gland, a
gland very prone to infection and subsequent enlargement. This blocks
the urethra and is a very common medical problem in males. Putting a
collapsible tube through an organ that is very likely to expand and
block flow in this tube is not good design. Any moron with half a
brain (or less) could design male "plumbing" better.
Perhaps one of the most famous examples of how evolution does not
produced designed, but "jury-rigged" traits is the panda's thumb. If
you count the digits on a panda's paw you will count six. Five curl
around and the "thumb" is an opposable digit. The five fingers are
made of the same bones our (humans and most other vertebrates) fingers
are made of. The thumb is constructed by enlarging a few bones that
form the wrist in other species. The muscles that operate it are
"rerouted" muscles present in the hand of vertabrates (see S.J. Gould
book "The Panda's Thumb" for an engaging discussion of this case).
Again, this is not good design.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Vestigial Features: Contributions for a FAQ list
Since most of the examples that would probably be submitted will be
animal-kingdom ones, I'd like to take a look outside.
Plants
Alternation of generations:
Many algae and "lower" plants, like mosses and ferns, have an
alternation of generations between an asexual diploid phase and a
sexual haploid phase. In ferns and similar plants, it is the diploid
phase which is the most prominent; it reproduces by producing spores.
The haploid plants are small ones that release egg and sperm cells;
they need damp ground for the sperms to swim to the eggs in, thus
limiting ferns' habitats. Looking at the "higher" plants, the
gymnosperms and the angiosperms, we find that just about all of the
plant is the diploid phase. The female haploid phases grow in the
reproductive organs of the diploid phases; they are only a few cells
in angiosperms. The male haploid phases are released as pollen; when
they alight on the diploid phases' reproductive organs, they sprout a
tube that attempts to find the female haploid phase. Haploid phases
bigger than one cell are a vestigial feature here.
Flowers of self-pollinators:
Some flowering plants, like dandelions, are self-pollinating, and thus
have no need of flowers to attract pollen carriers.
Vestigial flower parts:
Some non-flowering angiosperms, like the grasses, apparently have
vestigial flower parts.
Cells
Mitochondria and chloroplasts in eukaryotic cells:
Eukaryotic cells (those with distinct nuclei) typically have rather
complex internal structure. Most of this structure is generated from
the cell's fluid matrix, but there are important exceptions. These are
the mitochondria and the chloroplasts (as well as different-colored
plastids). Mitochondria perform energy metabolism, combining electrons
from food with oxygen (and hydrogen ions) to make water. Chloroplasts
do photosynthesis. These organelles contain their own genes and their
own DNA->RNA->protein synthesis systems. Why that should be necessary
is not clear, given the other internal structures that do not need
self-contained genetic systems, and also given the fact that many of
the genes for proteins used in the mitochondria and chloroplasts
reside in the nucleus.
The answer to this riddle is that they are descended from free-living
cells, which, of course, would need their own genetic systems. This is
evident by comparing sequences of macromolecules like Cytochrome C and
ribosomal RNA, as well as by comparing details of internal structure.
The mitochondria turn out to be related to the Purple Bacteria, which
photosynthesize by a simpler process (one photosystem instead of two)
than oxygen-releasing photosynthesizers do, and which use sulfur or
organic compounds instead of water as their starting point. The family
tree of the Purple Bacteria includes many non-photosynthetic bacteria;
these include many of the classical Gram-negative (from their response
to a certain stain) ones like the root-nodule bacteria and Escherichia
coli.
The chloroplasts turn out to be descendants of the cyanobacteria, or
blue-green algae. Chloroplast capture by eukaryotic cells probably
happened several times, producing the different lineages of eukaryotic
algae. In some cases, a "chloroplast" turns out to have once been a
eukaryotic alga, indicating that this process can be repeated.
The riddle of the mitochondrial and chloroplast proteins whose genes
reside in the nucleus can be resolved by supposing that the genes were
transferred there. There may have been selection pressure in favor of
this transference if the nuclei copy genes with greater fidelity than
the mitochondria or chloroplasts do.
Thus, the genetic systems of the mitochondria and chloroplasts are
vestigial features dating back from a free-living existence.
Oxygen Metabolism:
There is a remarkable feature of oxygen metabolism all across Earth
organisms. In most cases, it is either the last (for respiration) or
the first (for photosynthesis) step in the various metabolic pathways.
Furthermore, there is more variation in the molecules used for the
final steps of respiration than for the earlier ones. These
circumstances suggest that O2 metabolism was a relatively late
acquisition and that O2 respiration was made possible by some
molecular add-ons to existing metabolic systems.
This contention is supported by family trees of bacteria, which show
that O2-users are surrounded by O2-nonusers, as if use of O2 was a
later acquisition. Furthermore, O2-releasing photosynthesis used two
photosystems, one of which is probably a duplicate of the other, as
compared to the single photosystem used by non-O2-releasing
photosynthetic bacteria.
This is in agreement with geochemical evidence, which shows that the
oxygen content of the Earth's atmosphere rose over time. Starting
about 2 billion years ago are the Banded Iron Formations of deposits
of Fe2O3, which is insoluble, while FeO, with less oxygen, is. Also,
the uranium oxide UO2 is replaced by U3O8.
From chemical-equilibrium considerations, one finds that the Earth's
atmosphere would be neutral, consisting mostly of N2 and CO2. Oxygen
would be removed by the oxidation of weathering rocks. Thus, around 2
billion years ago, something or other had started producing oxygen,
and that was presumably the cyanobacteria.
To sum up, the vestigial feature here is O2-independence by the bulk
of the metabolic processes.
References
Bacterial Evolution, C.R. Woese, Microbiological Reviews, Vol. 51, No.
2, p. 221; June 1987
Archaebacteria, C.R. Woese, Scientific American, 1987(?)
The Phylogeny of Prokaryotes, G.E.Fox et al. (including C.R. Woese),
Science, Vol. 209, p. 4455; July 25, 1980
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Keith Doyle
I know of several individual examples, one of my favorites is the
chapter "Nasty Habits" in "The Flight of the Iguana" by David Quammen.
He describes the bedbug Xylocaris Maculipennis and how it has adapted
a curious way of reproduction, that of homosexual stabbing rape.
Apparently some of the various bedbug species make use of a "mating
plug" where once a male has mated with a female, the male "seals her
shut" preventing other males from mating with her. Some species have
adapted around this by stabbing rape, where the male impales the
female and bypasses the mating plug. In Xylocaris Maculipennis, this
has been taken one step further, where the male will impale and
inseminate other males, and the rapist's genes enter the bloodstream
to be carried to females by the victim. In this way, the rapist
conceives by proxy.
And of course there are other examples, "The Panda's Thumb" by Gould
is one of the classics by now, and I expect you'll hear about others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Matthew P. Wiener
Detorted gastropods are another example of brain-dead design.
Gastropods are famous for the 180 degree twist they do to their larval
bodies, so that their rear ends are sticking out over their heads. So
far, this is just weird. What is moronic (were it design) is the fact
that some of the gastropods (the detorted ones) then do an untwist,
and straighten out their body afterwards.
Note that had Garstang been right about the reason for the twist--it's
a survival mechanism for larvae, protecting their heads--then twisting
and untwisting makes good design sense. But experiment shows that
torsion makes no such difference ... it only makes for good poetry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Paul Keck
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: design in living organisms
I've read that 1 in 3 men will need to have prostate surgery in their
lives. Now, everyone look left.. now look right.. One of you will be
the lucky man! Can you say endoscopy? How about razor blades?
Chris, you left out the even worse design of having the testes form
inside the abdomen, then have to pass through the abdominal wall and
down to the scrotum, thereby leaving a weak spot (two, actually) in
the wall. This spot, called the inguinal canal, can herniate, allowing
the intestines to slop out under the skin. Herniation both screws up
the intestine and cuts off/slows the blood flow to the affected
testis. Great design.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: Bad design and vestigial organs
In my article on vestigial features, I had promised to omit the animal
kingdom, in the expectation that others would have superabundant
animal-kingdom examples. That expectation only partially fulfilled, I
will now give some animal-kingdom examples. I hope it is good FAQ
material :-)
The wings of flightless birds. For most flightless birds, the wings
are non-functional, aside from possible display functions. The only
major exceptions are diving birds, like penguins, whose "wings" serve
as control surfaces. In some cases, the wings are very small, as for
kiwis. The effect is to reduce the number of usable limbs from 4 to 2,
which can hardly be called an improvement.
Bird-teeth genes. All the living birds, and all the known Cenozoic
fossil birds, are toothless. Most Mesozoic birds and dinosaurs
possessed teeth (any toothless Mesozoic birds?). A recent experiment
in growing chicken-embryo jaw tissue next to some mouse/rat jaw tissue
in a mouse's eye revealed that teeth formed. And the teeth did not
look like any rodent teeth, but were peg-shaped with a conical top,
just like the fossil bird teeth. The ability to grow teeth was thus
preserved for over 65 million years, perhaps as a side effect of
certain growth-control genes specifying more essential things.
Extra toes of ungulates. Various hoofed mammals typically have toe
bones in addition to those that bear the hooves. This is readily
evident on the feet of artiodactyls (cows, deer, pigs, etc.). For
equids, two splints are sometimes present alongside the main toe bone.
Also, domestic horses are sometimes born with three-toed feet.
Relatively recent fossil equids, however, often had three-toed feet,
indicating that the one-toed feet of the extant equids is a
development of the last couple million years, but that the animals
still have the ability to produce three toes per foot.
Solid-color equids having genes for making stripes. The living equids
are the domestic horse, its wild progenitors, the donkeys, and the
zebras and quaggas. Matings of different breeds of solid-color equids
(horses and donkeys) sometimes produce offspring with zebra-like
stripes. It is as if the genes for making stripes, which are expressed
in zebras, are switched off in the solid-color equids, only to
re-emerge in certain circumstances.
Flies growing legs instead of antennae on their heads, and mosquitoes
with legs for mouthparts. These "homeotic mutations" suggest that
these appendages were originally legs, but that they were specialized
to different functions. Removing or disabling genetic instructions
which roughly translate into "A limb on this segment is to become an
antenna" and "a limb on this segment is to become a mouthpart" leaves
the limb following a default instruction that goes something like "a
limb on this segment is to become a leg" (it's not even that simple,
because insect legs on different segments are often specialized
differently). There is another mutation that causes fly larvae to
start growing legs on the abdominal segments; this mutation is lethal,
but if it was not, then an adult fly would emerge from the pupa with
lots of extra legs down its body. The results of these
limb-growth-control mutations are consistent with the hypothesis that
the original arthropod had essentially identical, unspecialized limbs,
which were specialized to different functions, or even suppressed,
among its descendants. These limbs would have been specified in
cookie-cutter fashion, and the various specializations and
suppressions would have resulted from later add-ons to the growth
instructions. Interestingly, trilobites and the Burgess Shale
arthropods show relatively little evidence of limb
specialization/suppression, so the earliest fossils are consistent
with the overlaid cookie-cutter hypothesis.
Crab tails. Under their broad, flattened bodies can be found small
tails. These are clearly a leftover from when their ancestors had
long, thin bodies, as lobsters still do.
Ancestral wing configurations reappearing. Flies sometimes grow a
second pair of wings instead of halteres (balancing organs); most
other living insects have two pairs of wings. Cockroaches sometimes
grow a third pair of wings, like some fossil insects.
Fetal teeth missing from adults. Baleen whale fetuses have teeth and
fetal calves have upper front teeth; adult (and probably newborn)
baleen whales are toothless (the baleen is not teeth), and cows lack
upper front teeth. These teeth never erupt and are resorbed as the
fetus grows.
Snakes with vestigial limbs. Boa constrictors have small vestigial
hind legs; these may aid in copulating. However, most other species of
snakes lack this feature, and seem to do fine without them.
Cetacean hipbones. Some whales have hipbones deep inside their bodies,
attached to no limbs. One possible purpose is to serve as an
attachment point for muscles that move the penis, however.
Mammal tails, at least in many cases. These are much reduced from the
reptilian ancestral form, and when they serve a function, it is
usually for whisking away flies (as for horses) or for signaling
(consider dogs wagging their tails). New World monkeys, however, use
them as an extra limb, and kangaroos have big tails for balancing, so
mammal tails sometimes do have important new functions, however. There
are some with very tiny tails, like elephants, and some which lack
them, such as bears and apes/humans. The ancestral ape was probably
capable of brachiating (moving around in trees suspended from tree
limbs that one is holding), which gibbons and siamangs still do today.
This would have made a tail a nuisance, thus leading to its
suppression (the same thing may have happened to the ancestor of the
frogs and toads). The disappearance (or only near-disappearance?) of
bear tails is less easily explainable, however. But even there,
evidence of tails is sometimes present, as in human embryos having
tails for awhile. A side effect of a brachiating ancestry may be our
ability to point our arms straight upward (in the direction of the
head), an ability not as critical for our species as it is for gibbons
and siamangs.
Flounder eyes. On sea floors, there live these fish that lie on their
sides. They have two eyes -- on one side of their heads. But they
start off life with eyes on both sides of their heads, and one eye
moves to the other side. Why two eyes instead of one? And why
originally on both sides of the head?
Original embryonic eye positions. In human and dog embryos, as in most
other vertebrate embryos, the eyes are originally on the sides of the
head. However, the eyes move forward as human and dog embryos grow, to
make possible binocular vision. One human birth defect is for this
process to be incomplete, making the eyes too far apart. Among the
vast majority of the animals with backbones, the eyes are at the sides
of the head; the main exceptions I know of are the bats, the primates,
the carnivores, the owls, and possibly some of the more cerebrally
endowed small carnivorous dinosaurs. In their family trees, they are
surrounded with eyes-on-the-side animals, suggesting that binocular
vision evolved several times.
Giraffe neck lengths. Baby giraffes start out with necks whose
relative length is similar to those of other ungulates; it is as they
grow that they acquire the relatively long necks that the species is
noted for.
Human toes. Our feet have toes, one of which is big and slightly
separated from the others. For walking, there is no special need of
having a split front end of the foot; it should not be surprising that
the toes are small. But they are there, and in most primate species
they are much more prominent. In some species at least, the big toe
points outward, just like a thumb. Interestingly, in some early
hominid species, the toe bones were relatively longer than in our
species.
Wisdom teeth. Our jaws are a bit small for these late-erupting teeth;
some people have them, while others do not.
Outsized hind legs of some four-legged dinosaurs. Stegosaurus,
especially, had hind legs much bigger than its front legs. This is
probably a byproduct of being descended from a two-legged ancestor
that went back to walking on all fours. Many of the dinosaurs walked
on their hind limbs only, with the front limbs remining at various
levels of development. In Tyrannosaurus, they are very small, though
still there, which has led to the suggestion that they are vestigial.
The earliest dinosaurs known, like Herrerasaurus, were like this.
Transitional cases? Possibly! Iguanodon or some other such dinosaur
apparently walked on two legs when juvenile, and on all fours when
adult (and a lot heavier).
[My memory runs out at this point...]
Good sources for some of this material: Charles Darwin's Origin of
Species and Stephen Jay Gould's essays, notably Hen's Teeth and
Horse's Toes. In addition, studies of embryonic development often
reveal an abundance of vestigial features, some examples of which are
given here.
On the molecular level again....
An abundance of "pseudogenes" have been discovered, which are not
prefaced with a "start" codon, but which have a resemblance to known
genes that is too improbable to be coincidence. These are most likely
the results of gene duplications and mutations that turned the "start"
codon into something else. Thus the DNA-to-RNA transcription system
does not "know" that here is a gene to be expressed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: (Herb Huston)
Subject: Re: design in living organisms
Chris Colby wrote:
You can find bad design everywhere in the human body (the wiring of
the photoreceptors in the eye and the structure of the knee leap
immediately to mind (perched rather precariously for such a supposedly
important structure)).
It can hardly be said that the human knee is well designed for
kneeling. Prolonged kneeling can lead to an expansion of the bursa in
front of the patella, a condition known as housemaid's knee. (Perhaps
that's why housemaids are almost extinct.)
Likewise, there's a design flaw in the human elbow. At the knob on the
lower end of the humerus the ulnar nerve is exposed just under the
skin. A sharp blow by a hard object causes that numbing, painful
sensation called "striking the funny bone" (a pun on the name of the
bone).
There are some additional design flaws that appear in the
manufacturing process of humans: the fetal lanugo, the grasping
reflex, the Moro reflex, and the fontanelles. Even the adult human
skull is too thin to provide adequate protection to the gigantic brain
and the absence of brow ridges leaves the eyes poorly protected.
When can we expect issuance of the recall notice?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: More vestigial features...
Fused bones. These are bones that start out separate and become
knitted together for added strength. Human examples are the skull and
the pelvis; birds have several bones in their front limbs (wings)
fused.
Bird alula or "***** wing". A much-reduced digit on the front limb.
The two others are retained, though they are fused into one piece.
The Hoatzin chick's claws. The claws on their wing limbs enable them
to climb away from potential predators; their presence indicates that
all the clawless-winged birds have the potential of growing claws on
their wing limbs, which is inherited from their clawed-limbed land
ancestors, which were probably small theropod (carnivorous) dinosaurs.
Hollowness of dodo and penguin bones. It is not critical for ground
birds to reduce weight with hollow bones of the sort that flying birds
have.
Animals which make teeth as fetuses, then resorb them: Baleen whales,
anteaters, and some ungulates (cows have upper front teeth which they
later resorb).
Gill bars of tetrapod (land-vertebrate and descendant) embryos. The
cartilage gill bars appear, only to disappear or be reworked with
later growth. Of these animals, only amphibians have gills, and that
only in the larval (tadpole) stage. Most adult amphibians and all the
rest are air breathers; even the aquatic ones do not grow gills to use
underwater.
Aquatic-tetrapod air breathing and land breeding. Largely aquatic
animals like sea turtles, Galapagos iguanas, sea snakes, crocodilians,
water birds including penguins, phocids (seals, sea lions, and
walruses), and cetaceans (dolphins and whales) all have to come up to
the surface to breathe; all of them but the sea snakes and the
cetaceans lay eggs or give birth on the land. Though the sea snakes
and cetaceans are completely aquatic, giving birth in the water, they
still have to breathe air, which is a limitation for a completely
aquatic animal.
Jaw origins from gill bars. In jawed-vertebrate embryos, the jaws are
formed from the gill bars closest to the mouth. In jawless fish
(lampreys and hagfish), these gill bars stay gill bars. This
circumstance indicates an origin of jaws from gill bars.
The mammalian amniotic sac. This is a vestigial eggshell that
surrounds the fetus. Live birth evolved out of retaining an egg
inside.
Tadpoles. Immature frogs go through this phase, in which they look and
act much like fish.
The aquatic embryos of land salamanders, which live on the land from
hatching.
Tails of human embryos. Though tails are a nearly universal vertebrate
feature, and are present in all the embryos, they are lost in later
growth in our species and the most closely related ones (the apes),
leaving only a tiny bone on the pelvis, the coccyx.
Rudimentary legs of some snakes (boas, etc.). Other species of snakes
seem to do fine without them.
The small lung of snakes with only one lung significantly large. It is
an inheritance from two-lunged ancestors.
Small wings of flightless female moths in certain species. In most
other species, as with winged insects in general, both sexes, and not
only the male, have functional wings.
Stumpy tails and other such features of some domestic animals bred to
have none.
Nonfunctional pistils in male flowers. Since the predominant
configuration of flowers is to have both sexes of reproductive organs
(stamens and pistils), the pistil of a flower with only stamens
functional is vestigial.
Certain plants [Serophulariaceae (Darwin's Origin of Species)] have
reduced stamens.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/jury-rigged.html
.
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
06 Nov 2003 02:38:10 AM |
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On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:30:36 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:kfhjqvcsqaja3hddjtp7v9q346df44p4mm@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:40:04 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
Everything which exists proves creation
Care to explain that? My computer doesn't prove any creation other
What? Was your computer Created? You mean to confess that it did not rise of
itself from nothing?
Duh! Tell me, Dude, That does not prove Creation?
than its own, by people. That alone totally refutes your assertion.
--
I proves my assertion, but you refuse to accept Truth.
Sad, that...
Introduction
Every so often, someone comes up with the statement "the formation of
any enzyme by chance is nearly impossible, therefore abiogenesis is
impossible". Often they cite an impressive looking calculation from
the astrophysicist Fred Hoyle, or trot out something called "Borel's
Law" to prove that life is statistically impossible. These people,
including Fred, have committed one or more of the following errors.
Problems with the creationists' "it's so improbable" calculations
1) They calculate the probability of the formation of a "modern"
protein, or even a complete bacterium with all "modern" proteins, by
random events. This is not the abiogenesis theory at all.
2) They assume that there is a fixed number of proteins, with fixed
sequences for each protein, that are required for life.
3) They calculate the probability of sequential trials, rather than
simultaneous trials.
4) They misunderstand what is meant by a probability calculation.
5) They seriously underestimate the number of functional
enzymes/ribozymes present in a group of random sequences.
For an explanation of "why it is not possible to do a "probability of
abiogenesis" calculation in any meaningful way."
read the full article at:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
06 Nov 2003 03:25:43 PM |
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LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in
news:qn1kqv0c3valb02k2l1succj8d0ukai02i@4ax.com:
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:30:36 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:kfhjqvcsqaja3hddjtp7v9q346df44p4mm@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:40:04 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
Everything which exists proves creation
Care to explain that? My computer doesn't prove any creation other
What? Was your computer Created? You mean to confess that it did not
rise of itself from nothing?
Duh! Tell me, Dude, That does not prove Creation?
than its own, by people. That alone totally refutes your assertion.
--
I proves my assertion, but you refuse to accept Truth.
Sad, that...
Introduction
Every so often, someone comes up with the statement "the formation of
any enzyme by chance is nearly impossible, therefore abiogenesis is
impossible". Often they cite an impressive looking calculation from
the astrophysicist Fred Hoyle, or trot out something called "Borel's
Law" to prove that life is statistically impossible. These people,
including Fred, have committed one or more of the following errors.
Problems with the creationists' "it's so improbable" calculations
1) They calculate the probability of the formation of a "modern"
protein, or even a complete bacterium with all "modern" proteins, by
random events. This is not the abiogenesis theory at all.
2) They assume that there is a fixed number of proteins, with fixed
sequences for each protein, that are required for life.
3) They calculate the probability of sequential trials, rather than
simultaneous trials.
4) They misunderstand what is meant by a probability calculation.
5) They seriously underestimate the number of functional
enzymes/ribozymes present in a group of random sequences.
For an explanation of "why it is not possible to do a "probability of
abiogenesis" calculation in any meaningful way."
read the full article at:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
Good points, and I enjoyed your other post in response to "oldwetdog".
Isn't it interesting that evolutionary debates NEVER find their way to the
biology or evolutionary NGs? (Check out the crossposts)
It must be because any attempt to actually have a real discussion would
result in immediate failure.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
06 Nov 2003 03:56:48 AM |
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On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:30:36 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
wrote:
Care to explain that? My computer doesn't prove any creation other
What?
That!
Was your computer Created?
It was, by me. Would that make me a god?
You mean to confess that it did not rise of itself from nothing?
I don't confess anything.
Duh! Tell me, Dude, That does not prove Creation?
No, it does not.
than its own, by people. That alone totally refutes your assertion.
--
I proves my assertion, but you refuse to accept Truth.
Ah, Polly Clark? Got a new id?
Sad, that...
Here boy, fetch!
<throwing a nice bible in a deep well>
.
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| User: "oldwetdog" |
|
| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
06 Nov 2003 02:08:00 PM |
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"Jos Flachs" <'wcruise'@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:1i6kqv4ilmiph56rmgumesatok57tbukn3@4ax.com...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:30:36 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
wrote:
Care to explain that? My computer doesn't prove any creation other
What?
That!
Was your computer Created?
It was, by me. Would that make me a god?
You mean to confess that it did not rise of itself from nothing?
I don't confess anything.
Duh! Tell me, Dude, That does not prove Creation?
No, it does not.
than its own, by people. That alone totally refutes your assertion.
--
I proves my assertion, but you refuse to accept Truth.
Ah, Polly Clark? Got a new id?
Sad, that...
Here boy, fetch!
<throwing a nice bible in a deep well>
Was your computer Created?
It was, by me. Would that make me a god?
It makes you a creator. Artists, potters and poets are creators too, yet
I've never heard one ask if that then makes them a god. Whether it makes you
a god or not, you will need to answer that question.
You do realize, of course, that as soon as you begin to call yourself 'god'
others will begin to deny your existence.
Truth Is.
.
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| User: "Kermit" |
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| Title: Re: desiease of Evolution |
07 Nov 2003 10:58:13 PM |
|
|
"oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net> wrote in message news:<vqlah4ongr4e4b@corp.supernews.com>...
"Jos Flachs" <'wcruise'@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:1i6kqv4ilmiph56rmgumesatok57tbukn3@4ax.com...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:30:36 -0800, "oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@gte.net>
wrote:
Care to explain that? My computer doesn't prove any creation other
What?
That!
Was your computer Created?
It was, by me. Would that make me a god?
You mean to confess that it did not rise of itself from nothing?
I don't confess anything.
Duh! Tell me, Dude, That does not prove Creation?
No, it does not.
than its own, by people. That alone totally refutes your assertion.
--
I proves my assertion, but you refuse to accept Truth.
Ah, Polly Clark? Got a new id?
Sad, that...
Here boy, fetch!
<throwing a nice bible in a deep well>
Was your computer Created?
It was, by me. Would that make me a god?
It makes you a creator. Artists, potters and poets are creators too, yet
I've never heard one ask if that then makes them a god. Whether it makes you
a god or not, you will need to answer that question.
You do realize, of course, that as soon as you begin to call yourself 'god'
others will begin to deny your existence.
No, I believe in him. But I don't need faith, I have evidence that he
exists. Unlike your God, he has left "footprints". But if he wants me
to tithe, he's gonna have to do some yardwork first...
Truth Is.
So, is each and every drop of water a miracle; a direct intervention
by God? Is Brownian motion directed by God? How about the sprouting of
each grass seed? If *everything that happens is a miracle, what does
"miracle" mean?
Why is God constrained by statistics? Because they are the laws he
set down, or has aesthetic or moral constraints, or even logical?
Fine. Believe what you want. But if we can then study scientifically
the cycling of water through the weather systems, then let us study
the begining of the universe, and the begining of life, and the origin
of species. Your attitude is disrepectful of this hypothetical God -
you turn your back on him. My workout partner and buddy through the
university was a devout Christian, and he earned his PhD in plant
virology. He would say that science was studying how God does things.
But you seem to insist that your ignorance proves God. A curious
claim, but common.
You'll pardon me if I continue to learn as much as I | | | | | | | |