"Al Smith" <caddyshack_al@my-deja.com> wrote:
:|
:|Could you show me where "separation of church and state" is "WRITTEN
:|INTO THE CONSTITUTION?"
Ok
The Constitutional Principle of church state separation is found:
The concept of church state separation comes from the unamended
constitution.
Article VI, Section III
The No Religious Test Ban Clause (Separation clause)
http://www.members.tripod.com/~candst/testban1.htm
and
No Power to Congress Over Religion:
The Separation Clause, Article IV Paragraph III
Where does one find the words, or idea of a separation of church and state
in the Constitution?
Directly, the unamended constitution, Article VI, Section III:
"...but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification
to any office or public trust under the United States."
"The remaining part of the clause declares, that 'no religious test
shall ever be required, as a qualification to any office or public trust,
under the United States.' This clause is not introduced merely for the
purpose of satisfying the scruples of many respectable persons, who feel an
invincible repugnance to any test or affirmation. It had a higher object;
to cut off for ever every pretence of any alliance between church and state
in the national government. . .
Source of Material: Commentaries on the Constitution of the United
States by Joseph Story Vol III, Page 705-709. De Capo Press Reprinted in
American Constitutional and Legal History series, Da Capo Press NY 1970.
Joseph Story's Commentaries were originally published in 1833)
Then, indirectly in the entire document (unamended constitution) as a whole
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/art4piii.htm
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Article VI Paragraph or Section III
". . . but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to
any Office or public Trust under the United States."
"They divided power among the three branches of the Federal
Government, through Federal state separation of power, through Church state
separation of power, a division which is recognized in the Constitution
even before the First Amendment in the Religious Test Oath Clause."
Excerpt from The federalist Society For Law and Public Policy Studies.
Charitable Choice, Remarks of Professor Marci Hamilton
http://www.fed-soc.org/Publications/practicegroupnewsletters/PG%20Links/charchoicemh.htm
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Representative Thomas Tucker on Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/basic2a.htm
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MARCH 5, 1798
GENERAL + A U R O R A + ADVERTISER
MONDAY MARCH 5, 1798
__________________________________________________
Take notice! Something very like this happened on the 4th of March, 1797.
The American constitution has no relation to the Christian religion: Yet
Mr. Adams, before taking his oath of office, made a long exordium to this
purpose: viz, that, although the constitution makes no distinction in
favour of the Christian religion, yet that he (Mr. Adams) in nominating to
public offices would always have a special eye to that point. This truth
was thereafter sent to the press.
In July or August last, when the author of the history of 1796 or in plain
terms, when Hamilton came to Philadelphia to vindicate his character by a
confession of adultery, this identical and most Christian president invited
him to a family dinner with Mrs. Adams. Such is his selection of company
for the entertainment of his wife! Oh, Johnny! Johnny!
Source of Information:
General Aurora Advertiser, March 5, 1798. MFILM N.S. 12516, HF5862.A9 Old
Dominion University microfilms room.
*****************************************************************************
MAY 9, 1798
GENERAL + AURORA + ADVERTISER
PHILADELPHIA
WEDNESDAY, MAY 9, 1798
__________________________________________________
The other papers of this city have chosen to be silent this day, because
the President has recommended a fast. We do not follow their example:
Because there is nothing in the constitution giving authority to proclaim
fasts .
Because, if any such power can be considered, by implication, as vested by
the constitution, it would rather belong to the Legislators.
Because prayer, fasting, and humiliation are matters of religion and
conscience, with which government has nothing to do, but which every
individual is to attend to at such times, and in such manner, as he shall
deem fit.
And Because we consider a connection between state and church affairs as
dangerous to religious and political freedom and that, therefore, every
approach towards it should be discouraged.
Source of Information: General Aurora Advertiser, May, 9, 1798,
Philadelphia, Penna. MFILM N.S. 12516, HF5862.A9, Old Dominion University
microfilms room
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/art4piii.htm
*****************************************************************************
April 14, 1800
The Gazette
Philadelphia
Monday Evening, April 14.
The condition of Church and State in America is such as to fill every
considerate mind with the most unhappy sensations. In spite of that vanity
and fastidiousness which led the Federal Convention, in founding their
government, to preclude any connection, it will appear in the end, even by
our own deplorable example, that a strict and indissoluble alliance of
religion to government has been ordained in the nature of things. Though
formally sundered by Constitution and laws; together they decline and
together (it would seem) they are likely to perish.
Source of Information
The Gazette of the United States, April 14, 1800.Jan 1, 1800 TO Dec.31,
1800 MFILM N.S. 10953 AP2.05
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
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A. The Constitution and the First Amendment
Strictly speaking, the American experiment of freedom and separation was
not established in the First Amendment command that "Congress shall make no
law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof." That experiment had been launched four years earlier,
when the founders of the republic carefully withheld from the new national
government any power to deal with religion. As Madison said, the national
government had no "jurisdiction" over religion or any "shadow of right to
intermeddle" with it.(1)
The First Amendment, then, did not take away or abridge any power of the
national government; its intent was to make express the absence of power.
The historian George Bancroft, in a letter to Philip Schaff, stated:
Congress from the beginning was as much without the power to make a law
respecting the establishment of religion as it is now that the amendment
has passed."(2)
Charles Beard made the same point:
The Constitution does not confer upon the Federal government any power
whatever to deal with religion in any form or manner. . . . The First
Amendment merely confirms the intention of the framers.(3)
FOOTNOTES
(1) June 12, 1788, James Madison speaking to the delegates (speaking
against Patrick Henry's assertions) at the Virginia Constitutional
ratifying convention, as reported on page 330, The Debates of the Several
State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution 1787, Vol.
III by Jonathan Elliot. J B Lippincott Company 1888)
(2) Schaff, Philip, "Church and State in the United States," Papers of the
American Historical Society, 1888, p. 137.
(3) Beard, Charles, The Republic, New York, Viking Press 1944, pp. 166,
178.
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Church State and Freedom, Leo Pfeffer Boston, The
Beacon Press (1953) p 114
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/nopower.htm
:|BTW... Where was Jefferson when Constitution was written?
:|
Irrelevant. Thomas Jefferson was not responsible for the Constitutional
Principle of Church (Religion) and State (govt) separation
James Madison was far more responsible for that than Jefferson
Madison has this to say on the subject:
Madison's vetoes: Some of The First Official Meanings Assigned to The
Establishment Clause
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/madvetos.htm
and
************************************************************
James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
----------------------------------------
OCTOBER 1, 1803
Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc [1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has been made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently distinguish the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and seems to imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor. The
jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of Religion from Civil power. In the Indian Treaty it will be
less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see Ford,
VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty from the
Kaskaskia Indians; see
Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian treaty
requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the stipulations
in the treaty to "the competence of both
houses.... as soon as the senate shall have advised its ratification"; see
ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Oct.
1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.],
The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and
James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James Morton Smith, Vol. II, 1790
-1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London, (1995) pp 1297-98)
---------------------------------------------------
JUNE 3, 1811
"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I
have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the
Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem
Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical
distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the
purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States,
I could not have other wise discharged my duty on the
occasion which presented itself"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June
3, 1811. Letters And Other Writings of James Madison Fourth President Of
The United States In Four Volumes Published By the Order Of Congress,
Vol..II, J. B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia, (1865) pp 511-512)
-----------------------------------------------------------
MARCH 2, 1819
"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated
hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions
with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of
the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly
increased by the total separation of the church from the State."
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excert of a letter to Robert Walsh from James
Madison. MARCH 2, 1819 Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 121-126. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)
----------------------------------------------------------
1817-1833
"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and Gov't in the
Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by
Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents' already furnished
in their short history"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from Madison's Detached Memoranda. This
document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William Cabell Rives, a
biographer of Madison. Scholars date these observations in Madison's hand
sometime between 1817 and 1832. The entire document was published by
Elizabeth Fleet in the William and Mary Quarterly of October 1946.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
JULY 10, 1822
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation
between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have
no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done,
in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity
the less they are mixed together"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt of letter to Edward Livingston from James
Madison, July 10, 1822. Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 273-276. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)
--------------------------------------------------------------
SEPTEMBER 1833
"I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to
trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil
authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on
unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other
or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded
against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way
whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting
each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others".
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter written by James Madison to Rev. Jasper
Adams, September, 1833.Writings of James Madison, edited by Gaillard Hunt,
[not sure what the volume number is but have enough information presented
here to locate the letter] microform Z1236.L53, pp 484-488. )
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