| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bernd Schmitt" |
| Date: |
25 Nov 2007 02:56:32 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Evidence for the Existence of God |
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On 25.11.2007 20:04, Woody Brison wrote some things:
Do you believe in the existence of the Tower of Pisa?
I've been there. Principles of sciencle aply, too.
I'm going to define God as that being who:
- created the earth
even if so -> no need to for good to be good/wise/omipotent/worship
- is the father of the human race
father? male or female?
- truly loves his children
since when? prove it.
- has the size and shape of a man
show me a photo ;)
- lives forever
yes, for sure ;))
- exists in one place at a time
i asked his brother, you are wrong.
- is omnipotent, with certain limits
yes, his mother disallowed to play around with satan anymore.
- is omniscient, with certain limits
he was bad in math, his sister was better in creation.
- is omnipresent philosophically
you are wrong, he hates philosophers
- is invisible when he's hidden
when he is hidden, for sure?
With this in mind, I can think of a number of evidences for
the existence of God.
The evidence:
1. Mankind has a persistent tradition of a Supreme Being.
In the very oldest legends,
legends, as you name it.
stories, there are many which are orthogonal.
2. Mankind has a collective opinion about the existence of
God based partly on observation, partly on reasoning, and
partly on assumption.
or just the fear of death, to have a hope.
Well, there are
a certain fraction of us that have met angels, seen God,
known he exists, and so forth.
yes, i asked his brother yesterday - you are wrong.
3. If someone is trying to find out whether God exists, it
makes sense to study what others have written who engaged
in the same quest previously.
[...] Israelites [...] Nephites [...] Mormons [...]
Old Testament [...] the New Testatment [...]
the Book of Mormon [...] LDS Doctrine
and Covenants) are therefore especially valuable.
they try to indoctrinate people, to make them fear and obbey
4. In the Bible, and in Latter-day Saint teachings, there
are prophecies which have come true, defying odds.
which bible - the vulgata or which rewritten one do you mean?
5. If God is our creator, then it makes sense that if we
seek him, as we approach him we will feel something. This
can be experienced by anyone.
a creator does not need to be good/onmipotent/omniscient/...
6. Anyone can open a correspondence, a communciation, with
God.
ah, no yesterday only his brother was available, but he told me that you
are wrong.
7. Isaiah & others
names of random people - unrelevant.
the rest (books/prophets) was too much unrelevant.
human language is too limited to express anything a 'perfect' god has to
say - as older the language is as more limits occure.
human mind is too limited to understand anything a 'perfect' god has to
say. so any limitation in audience of a 'perfect' gods words - mainly a
limitation to one person (prophets) is suspicious and an opportunity for
abuse.
any re-interpretation leads to more errors, because of increasing degree
of freedom in expression.
the case is easy - religion the way to pray it is only
to fear people,
to make them obey (what a elite-minority priests/prophets/books says),
to limit knowledge,
to suppress other minds
Bernd
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| User: "Tokay Pino Gris" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence for the Existence of God |
25 Nov 2007 11:26:49 PM |
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Bernd Schmitt wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
On 25.11.2007 20:04, Woody Brison wrote some things:
Do you believe in the existence of the Tower of Pisa?
I've been there. Principles of sciencle aply, too.
hehe. Exactly. If you haven't been there, how do you establish its
existence?
(Been there too. It does look funny, doesn't it?)
I'm going to define God as that being who:
- created the earth
even if so -> no need to for good to be good/wise/omipotent/worship
- is the father of the human race
father? male or female?
- truly loves his children
since when? prove it.
- has the size and shape of a man
show me a photo ;)
- lives forever
yes, for sure ;))
- exists in one place at a time
i asked his brother, you are wrong.
- is omnipotent, with certain limits
yes, his mother disallowed to play around with satan anymore.
- is omniscient, with certain limits
he was bad in math, his sister was better in creation.
- is omnipresent philosophically
you are wrong, he hates philosophers
- is invisible when he's hidden
when he is hidden, for sure?
Didn't answer to that definition. But you summed my responses up.
With this in mind, I can think of a number of evidences for
the existence of God.
The evidence:
1. Mankind has a persistent tradition of a Supreme Being.
In the very oldest legends,
legends, as you name it.
stories, there are many which are orthogonal.
Yep. "Anecdotal".
2. Mankind has a collective opinion about the existence of
God based partly on observation, partly on reasoning, and
partly on assumption.
or just the fear of death, to have a hope.
Yep.
Well, there are
a certain fraction of us that have met angels, seen God,
known he exists, and so forth.
yes, i asked his brother yesterday - you are wrong.
You mean Jerry Christ? Works at a burger joint and drinks too much?
(Sorry. Had to steal that one from George Charlin)
3. If someone is trying to find out whether God exists, it
makes sense to study what others have written who engaged
in the same quest previously.
[...] Israelites [...] Nephites [...] Mormons [...]
Old Testament [...] the New Testatment [...]
the Book of Mormon [...] LDS Doctrine
and Covenants) are therefore especially valuable.
they try to indoctrinate people, to make them fear and obbey
And they need MONEY.
4. In the Bible, and in Latter-day Saint teachings, there
are prophecies which have come true, defying odds.
which bible - the vulgata or which rewritten one do you mean?
Never mind that. WHAT prophecies?
5. If God is our creator, then it makes sense that if we
seek him, as we approach him we will feel something. This
can be experienced by anyone.
a creator does not need to be good/onmipotent/omniscient/...
Ehm. AND those three contradict themselves.
6. Anyone can open a correspondence, a communciation, with
God.
ah, no yesterday only his brother was available, but he told me that you
are wrong.
Well, Jerry Christ drinks too much, as we know. Was he sober?
7. Isaiah & others
names of random people - unrelevant.
And/Or anecdotal.
[snip]
the case is easy - religion the way to pray it is only
to fear people,
to make them obey (what a elite-minority priests/prophets/books says),
to limit knowledge,
to suppress other minds
and to be money.
"Tithing"? Was that the word?
Tokay
--
"I either want less corruption, or more chance to participate in it."
Ashleigh Brilliant
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| User: "Bernd Schmitt" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence for the Existence of God |
25 Nov 2007 02:59:31 PM |
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On 25.11.2007 21:56, Bernd Schmitt wanted to write:
the case is easy - religion the way YOU pray it is only
to fear people,
to make them obey (what a elite-minority priests/prophets/books says),
to limit knowledge,
to suppress other minds
the rest was correct ;)
Bernd
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| User: "Woody Brison" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence for the Existence of God |
25 Nov 2007 10:43:15 PM |
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On Nov 25, 1:56 pm, Bernd Schmitt <Bernd.Schmitt.N...@gmx.net> wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
On 25.11.2007 20:04, Woody Brison wrote some things:
Do you believe in the existence of the Tower of Pisa?
I've been there.
I'm envious!
... Principles of sciencle aply, too.
I'm going to define God as that being who:
- created the earth
even if so -> no need to for good to be good/wise/omipotent/worship
Didn't understand that
- is the father of the human race
father? male or female?
Male.
- truly loves his children
since when? prove it.
He created this earth to be a home for us. That's pretty
good for starters. Then put us here, with our concurrence.
There are good and wonderful reasons for this, altho life
can be really retchy at times. As one who's been thru
some such times, and have survived them, and am now living
in much happier conditions, I can only state that it otta
get better if you hang in there.
- has the size and shape of a man
show me a photo ;)
A valid and perceptive point. I don't have one. I don't
think there is one on this earth. I have reasons for
thinking this, reasons why there would not be one. It's
not because of evidential power or lack thereof; God is
a sacred subject, a holy being. He doesn't offer himself
as a curiosity for people to sell his photo in tabloids.
It wouldn't help anybody, I expect.
Some think the Shroud of Turin is a sort of photo of
Jesus. I don't think so, I think it's an imprint of some
other guy.
BUT... every one of us was made "in the image of
God" - Genesis 1:27-27. What does that mean? See
Genesis 5:1-3. Seth obviously looked a lot like his
dad. I think it means every one of us looks like God,
our Father. We all resemble him.
- lives forever
yes, for sure ;))
- exists in one place at a time
i asked his brother, you are wrong.
- is omnipotent, with certain limits
yes, his mother disallowed to play around with satan anymore.
Consider the old saw, "Can God make a rock that he
can't pick up?"
If he can, then he's not omniscient.
If he can't, " " " "
I've found an answer to it tho. He could make a rock,
then swear that he'll never pick it up. He has to keep
his promises, so he wouldn't be able to pick it up. So
he can make such a rock. So the notion of omnipotence
has certain logical limits.
- is omniscient, with certain limits
he was bad in math, his sister was better in creation.
He is immensely good at math. But consider how it
might be that God could know the future. From what
we understand at present, many events at the atomic
level are fundamentally unpredictable. And the universe
is a system that has large gain in many ways. Einstein
reportedly had trouble with believing that God plays
dice with the universe...
I pour myself a glass of water. As it sits there on
the table, the molecules of water are moving around
in random ways. What if it happened to work out that
most of the molecules in the top half were going up?
The top half of the water would launch into the air,
and the bottom half would quickly follow since it
would doubtless be going mostly down and it would
bounce off the bottom.
In practice, this is never observed, and the laws of
probability explain why. We rely on such effects to
get such things done. We pour concrete dams, relying
on the laws of probability that they won't spontaneously
collapse, and we build cities below. We have confidence
in our safety factors. We do this daily, routinely and
I don't know why God wouldn't also.
He is extremely intelligent. I might have included
that in my definition, but I didn't think of it at
the time. He can model the universe and know about
what it's going to do. He can control it in certain
ways, just like we can control a car or an aircraft,
only he's a really good pilot and navigator... and
he can visualize where things are going to go,
especially since he's steering them, and he's planned
out where he's going to steer them. He knows what
he's going to do. Also, he's been at it a long, long
time and so there shouldn't be too many surprises.
Further, he knows all of us well. He can predict in
general what we as a group will do, and he can set up
plans for what to do in response to many foreseeable
things we might do.
I'm not sure he knows exactly what we're going to do
as individuals. He might, but I rather expect he just
lets us work out what we want to do and then he responds,
guiding things to his planned goals, with his plans
having to be changed around some individuals
occasionally.
- is omnipresent philosophically
you are wrong, he hates philosophers
Oh, I don't think they are all that bad. My grampa
was one and he was pretty cool.
- is invisible when he's hidden
when he is hidden, for sure?
Well, I've seen religious teachers claim that God
Cannot Be Seen, which I don't believe. The Bible
describes him as invisible a couple times (Colosians
1:15 for instance) but there are other passages
where people see him (Acts 7:55-56 for instance)
and so I think what it means is that He's invisible
because he's not present, just like the Tower of Pisa
is invisible. At least from where I sit it is. In
most everyday scenarios, we don't see God in any
direction. Because he's far away and on the far side
of various obstructions.
With this in mind, I can think of a number of evidences for
the existence of God.
The evidence:
1. Mankind has a persistent tradition of a Supreme Being.
In the very oldest legends,
legends, as you name it.
stories, there are many which are orthogonal.
Excellent point. These things can't really be asserted,
but we would have to actually read and tally many old
legends and stories. I'm speaking from general knowledge
curried from 50 or 60 years of noticing and hearing
stories and reports of stories.
2. Mankind has a collective opinion about the existence of
God based partly on observation, partly on reasoning, and
partly on assumption.
or just the fear of death, to have a hope.
Yes, but that doesn't invalidate observation.
Well, there are
a certain fraction of us that have met angels, seen God,
known he exists, and so forth.
yes, i asked his brother yesterday - you are wrong.
Sorry, on this point no one will be able to contradict
me what I've seen and what I've not seen. How could
anyone else know what I've experienced besides me?
3. If someone is trying to find out whether God exists, it
makes sense to study what others have written who engaged
in the same quest previously.
[...] Israelites [...] Nephites [...] Mormons [...]
Old Testament [...] the New Testatment [...]
the Book of Mormon [...] LDS Doctrine
and Covenants) are therefore especially valuable.
they try to indoctrinate people, to make them fear and obbey
You're not familiar with them apparently...
4. In the Bible, and in Latter-day Saint teachings, there
are prophecies which have come true, defying odds.
which bible - the vulgata or which rewritten one do you mean?
Any and all. Willing to consider any translation or
manuscript or evidence such as first century quotation,
etc.
The Vulgate is a translation I hope you realize.
Let's consider an example. Ezekiel saw a vision of the
Temple in Jerusalem:
Ezekiel 43:1-4 Afterward he brought me to the
gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came
from the way of the east... And the glory of the
LORD came into the house by the way of the gate
whose prospect is toward the east.
Ezekiel 44:1-2 Then he brought me back the way of
the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh
toward the east; and it was shut. Then said the
LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not
be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because
the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it,
therefore it shall be shut.
Christians asserted, based partly on this scripture,
that when Jesus returns he will enter thru that same
gate. The Turkish emperor who controlled the city in
the 1500's decided to put that claim to rest and had
the gate walled up. Go to Google, select Images and
type in golden gate Jerusalem and you can locate
numerous photos of that gate, still blocked. The
present gate is probably not original from the first
century, but the fact is still true that the gate was
prophecied to be shut, and it is. It isn't open and
it isn't gone, it's shut. There's one example of a
direct fulfillment. I'd say at first cut that the
probability, in Ezekiel's time, that the gate would
still be there today, might be I don't know, say 1/10.
There were a lot of cities with gates and some of them
still exist. How many are standing in place, but walled
up? I don't know, say 1/1000. I'm not really skilled
in probability, but I'm guess that were we to make a
very careful effort we'd find that Ezekiel seems to
have bucked at least some sort of odds with this
prediction. Maybe not too high. Suppose it boils
down to 1 in 3. No big deal. Now go thru and
tabulate every prophecy known, and think about the
cumulative odds.
Actually doing this exercise is what's known as real
investigation, as opposed to just assuming. We're
looking for evidence for God's existence, this would
be one way to look. Watch out if you do this that you
don't slant the results the way you wish it to fall
out. Just let the answer fall out how it falls out.
With peer review/discussion. And time to work it out
fully. If you are so motivated. It would require
researching out what those prophecies are. I'd
probably start on the internet, look what others
have written. Or, I'd just read the scriptures and
note down every prophecy I came to. Probably a mix
of the two and any other way I could gather info.
5. If God is our creator, then it makes sense that if we
seek him, as we approach him we will feel something. This
can be experienced by anyone.
a creator does not need to be good/onmipotent/omniscient/...
If he weren't, how could he get anything done? In
real existence, things don't just hop to the snap of
one's fingers. Intelligent beings work and steer
things. I can order my kids around a little, and a
dog (which is somewhat intelligent) can be trained to
fetch stuff, etc. If you try to force people to do
stuff for you, they rebel. Nobody wants to work for
a cruel dictator. Only by being good, benevolent,
and kind could God get angels, prophets and Apostles
to work for him.
6. Anyone can open a correspondence, a communciation, with
God.
ah, no yesterday only his brother was available, but he told me that you
are wrong.
I don't pay any attention to that brother fellow. No
reliability to him.
7. Isaiah & others
names of random people - unrelevant.
the rest (books/prophets) was too much unrelevant.
Time and familiarity
Isaiah was this cool guy who saw tremendous visions
and wrote 'em down. There were schools of guys who
collected his books and copied them, commented on
them, studied them. Jesus quotes him dozens of times.
In the Book of Mormon, he endorses Isaiah to the
Nephites in an amazing way. (3 Nephi 23:1+) Makes
me wish I had been Isaiah, altho he did get sawed in
half, there was that.
human language is too limited to express anything a 'perfect' god has to
say - as older the language is as more limits occure.
Actually, the old ancient languages were designed to
talk about God. Ours today are adapted to talk about
mundane trifling stuff. Mess around with some ancient
texts and get a feel for how they read. You can even
get a copy in whatever old language and look up the
squiggles and puzzle out the meaning, with a
translation to help out, with very little training.
Just work it like a crypto exercise. People are kind
of a universal constant, sort of the same in any
century, and their writing is understandable once
past the particular symbol set.
human mind is too limited to understand anything a 'perfect' god has to
say.
I can talk to my kid. He's 3. He can grasp what I'm
trying to tell him to the depth I'm wanting. No he
can't understand Laplace transforms yet but he can
understand No don't touch that hot iron or See those
stars? We understand they are like the sun, some
brighter, some dimmer, only a lot farther away. Why
could we not understand God if he tries to tell us
something?
... so any limitation in audience of a 'perfect' gods words - mainly a
limitation to one person (prophets) is suspicious and an opportunity for
abuse.
Abuse occurs. Some of those old priests didn't like
what the scriptures said so they redacted parts.
any re-interpretation leads to more errors, because of increasing degree
of freedom in expression.
That's right. Need new revelation.
the case is easy - religion the way to pray it is only
to fear people,
to make them obey (what a elite-minority priests/prophets/books says),
to limit knowledge,
to suppress other minds
Bernd
Or to liberate people, help them, serve mankind, make
things better for everyone. Why not? It's more fun.
You shoulda seen the look on that guy's face when he
found the twenty I stuck under his pillow, while
listening to his sad tale of woe. If you'd a been
there you'd a probabaly stuck a fifty under. It feels
good to do good. One of the ways you can know that
God exists. Observe the feelings carefully, note the
timing and the meaning. You'll find things you cannot
honestly ascribe to "self-produced".
Wood
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| User: "Bernd Schmitt" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence for the Existence of God |
26 Nov 2007 03:11:29 AM |
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On 26.11.2007 05:43, Woody Brison wrote:
On Nov 25, 1:56 pm, Bernd Schmitt <Bernd.Schmitt.N...@gmx.net> wrote:
On 25.11.2007 20:04, Woody Brison wrote some things:
- is the father of the human race
father? male or female?
Male.
your god is not omnipotent, he lacks DNA!
- truly loves his children
since when? prove it.
He created this earth to be a home for us.
That is what you say - no need of truth there.
BUT... every one of us was made "in the image of
God" - Genesis 1:27-27. What does that mean?
Nothing, because you cite an unreliable source.
No book in no human language can capture the full truth of everything.
Consider the old saw, "Can God make a rock that he
can't pick up?"
Yes. I can make a thing which I can't pick up, nothing special.
If I can do so, your omnipotent god should be able to do so, too.
- is omniscient, with certain limits
he was bad in math, his sister was better in creation.
He is immensely good at math.
He is now, but he wasn't at school.
He is extremely intelligent.
No, he made a lot of errors. His sister is much better in creation and
she can control her temper much better.
- is invisible when he's hidden
when he is hidden, for sure?
Well, I've seen religious teachers claim that God
Cannot Be Seen, which I don't believe. The Bible
The bible is just a book, written from male humans, nothing special and
no proof of anything here. I prefer Douglas Adams, much more fun.
legends, as you name it.
stories, there are many which are orthogonal.
Excellent point. These things can't really be asserted,
but we would have to actually read and tally many old
legends and stories. I'm speaking from general knowledge
curried from 50 or 60 years of noticing and hearing
stories and reports of stories.
Oh ask people in Saudi Arabia or Iran for their general knowledge of
gods law. A long time error does not get right because of time.
Well, there are
a certain fraction of us that have met angels, seen God,
known he exists, and so forth.
yes, i asked his brother yesterday - you are wrong.
Sorry, on this point no one will be able to contradict
me what I've seen and what I've not seen. How could
anyone else know what I've experienced besides me?
The same point is valid for me.
I asked his brother, you are wrong. He knows him better than you.
[...] Israelites [...] Nephites [...] Mormons [...]
Old Testament [...] the New Testatment [...]
the Book of Mormon [...] LDS Doctrine
and Covenants) are therefore especially valuable.
they try to indoctrinate people, to make them fear and obbey
You're not familiar with them apparently...
How much of heroine does one need to take to know that its wrong?
I read enough to see that the bible & koran are wrong, absolutely wrong.
The god which is described there is evil.
He is far from being clever and much more far from being omniscient.
He failed several times (due to this descriptions) and he was not able
to repair - he only was able to destroy. He was not able to convince
only to hurt. He was not able to control his temper.
Too many points of this stories are proven absolutely wrong by science.
This books were re-interpreted, rewritten several times.
Prophets were needed to aply to newer situations.
The Vulgate is a translation I hope you realize.
The vulagate was a first order collection, i hope you realize.
I hope you know about language evolution and degree of freedom in
expression.
I hope you know, that language can not be translated even if words do
have the same meaning, because language context is time dependent.
child(t_1) != child(t_2).
Let's consider an example. Ezekiel saw a vision of the
Temple in Jerusalem:
I do not mit Ezekiel or any other unreliable source.
Give me a reliable proof, no stories. I can tell you plenty of such, too.
[prophecy]
Actually doing this exercise is what's known as real
investigation, as opposed to just assuming.
No that is called superstition, like horoscope - many people do believe
in those. No harm as long as others are not threatened. But this is what
christians are doing: suppressing other minds (mainly women).
5. If God is our creator, then it makes sense that if we
seek him, as we approach him we will feel something. This
can be experienced by anyone.
a creator does not need to be good/onmipotent/omniscient/...
If he weren't, how could he get anything done?
Real question. Is his existence needed to explain anything - no.
I can order my kids around a little, and a
dog (which is somewhat intelligent) can be trained to
fetch stuff, etc If you try to force people to do
stuff for you, they rebel. Nobody wants to work for
a cruel dictator. Only by being good, benevolent,
and kind could God get angels, prophets and Apostles
to work for him.
There is dictatorship: hell or heaven.
This is the threat.
Obeying laws and adorsement are the bill to pay.
6. Anyone can open a correspondence, a communciation, with
God.
ah, no yesterday only his brother was available, but he told me that you
are wrong.
I don't pay any attention to that brother fellow. No
reliability to him.
How can you say so. He helped him out several times, when god was in
psychatry. He made some nice universes, some of them are much better
than what we have here.
human language is too limited to express anything a 'perfect' god has to
say - as older the language is as more limits occure.
Actually, the old ancient languages were designed to
talk about God.
Only the language of the koran claims so, not the other languages.
Ours today are adapted to talk about
mundane trifling stuff. Mess around with some ancient
texts and get a feel for how they read.
I prefer texts to deal with problems of today, not of older man who
tried to suppress women (the real source of life) and to exploit fears
in order to dominate or to limit knowledge.
If people still would stick to the bible they still would believe that
the sun is going around the earth.
I can talk to my kid. He's 3. He can grasp what I'm
trying to tell him to the depth I'm wanting. No he
can't understand Laplace transforms yet but he can
understand No don't touch that hot iron or See those
stars? We understand they are like the sun, some
brighter, some dimmer, only a lot farther away. Why
could we not understand God if he tries to tell us
something?
The same reaon, why you kid will not understand quantum mechanics at the
age of 3. It is beyound its horizont.
... so any limitation in audience of a 'perfect' gods words - mainly a
limitation to one person (prophets) is suspicious and an opportunity for
abuse.
Abuse occurs. Some of those old priests didn't like
what the scriptures said so they redacted parts.
They did from the beginning, because creating an elite of god is always
nothing else then a dictatorship. "God told me, that you..." is start of
a lie in general.
any re-interpretation leads to more errors, because of increasing degree
of freedom in expression.
That's right. Need new revelation.
New lying prophets, writing new stories. History repeats.
You forgot one thing, there is one language independent of time & context:
M A T H
If god is so ever clever - he should give us a message in math -
everybody would be able to verify.
Or to liberate people,
No way, to suppress them by god given laws and criterions, history has
shown and still shows it.
help them, serve mankind,
missionairs are the opposite
make things better for everyone.
not for women (just 50% of mankind)
Why not? It's more fun.
For the elite-of-god, not for the rest of mankind
You shoulda seen the look on that guy's face when he
found the twenty I stuck under his pillow, while
listening to his sad tale of woe.
Having sex makes a bright face, too.
And yes, no need to mary for that.
And yes, no need to become pregnant.
This is fun, too.
If you'd a been
there you'd a probabaly stuck a fifty under. It feels
good to do good.
Yes, no god suppression needed for that.
I can make my own criterions.
Bernd
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| User: "Tokay Pino Gris" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence for the Existence of God |
25 Nov 2007 11:56:09 PM |
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Woody Brison wrote:
On Nov 25, 1:56 pm, Bernd Schmitt <Bernd.Schmitt.N...@gmx.net> wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
On 25.11.2007 20:04, Woody Brison wrote some things:
Do you believe in the existence of the Tower of Pisa?
I've been there.
I'm envious!
... Principles of sciencle aply, too.
I'm going to define God as that being who:
- created the earth
even if so -> no need to for good to be good/wise/omipotent/worship
Didn't understand that
Simple fact.
- is the father of the human race
father? male or female?
Male.
Ehm. How do you know?
Male and female are discribtions of sex... Does that mean god has a
penis? What does he do with it? Have sex? With whom?
- truly loves his children
since when? prove it.
He created this earth to be a home for us.
Circular again....
That's pretty
good for starters. Then put us here, with our concurrence.
There are good and wonderful reasons for this, altho life
can be really retchy at times. As one who's been thru
some such times, and have survived them, and am now living
in much happier conditions, I can only state that it otta
get better if you hang in there.
Sometimes it gets worse.
- has the size and shape of a man
show me a photo ;)
A valid and perceptive point. I don't have one. I don't
think there is one on this earth. I have reasons for
thinking this, reasons why there would not be one. It's
not because of evidential power or lack thereof; God is
a sacred subject, a holy being. He doesn't offer himself
as a curiosity for people to sell his photo in tabloids.
It wouldn't help anybody, I expect.
Don't evade.
Some think the Shroud of Turin is a sort of photo of
Jesus. I don't think so, I think it's an imprint of some
other guy.
Well, that is probably right. But recent data says it is not even an
"imprint" but a drawing.
BUT... every one of us was made "in the image of
God" - Genesis 1:27-27.
How can god be "male" then? 50% of the population is not male (good
thing it is so, too. I LIKE women...)
What does that mean? See
Genesis 5:1-3. Seth obviously looked a lot like his
dad. I think it means every one of us looks like God,
our Father. We all resemble him.
- lives forever
yes, for sure ;))
- exists in one place at a time
i asked his brother, you are wrong.
- is omnipotent, with certain limits
yes, his mother disallowed to play around with satan anymore.
Consider the old saw, "Can God make a rock that he
can't pick up?"
If he can, then he's not omniscient.
If he can't, " " " "
Omnipotent, I think you wanted to say.
I've found an answer to it tho. He could make a rock,
then swear that he'll never pick it up. He has to keep
his promises,
What? Where does it say your god keeps promises?
so he wouldn't be able to pick it up.
Therefor: Not omnipotent.
So
he can make such a rock. So the notion of omnipotence
has certain logical limits.
Yep. omnipotence and omniscience, as well as benevolence contradict each
other.
- is omniscient, with certain limits
he was bad in math, his sister was better in creation.
He is immensely good at math.
And proof or just sayso?
But consider how it
might be that God could know the future.
If he's omniscient, as you claim, he knows.
From what
we understand at present, many events at the atomic
level are fundamentally unpredictable. And the universe
is a system that has large gain in many ways. Einstein
reportedly had trouble with believing that God plays
dice with the universe...
Maybe think about that quote of Albert again?
I pour myself a glass of water. As it sits there on
the table, the molecules of water are moving around
in random ways. What if it happened to work out that
most of the molecules in the top half were going up?
The top half of the water would launch into the air,
and the bottom half would quickly follow since it
would doubtless be going mostly down and it would
bounce off the bottom.
lol
In practice, this is never observed, and the laws of
probability explain why. We rely on such effects to
get such things done. We pour concrete dams, relying
on the laws of probability that they won't spontaneously
collapse, and we build cities below. We have confidence
in our safety factors. We do this daily, routinely and
I don't know why God wouldn't also.
He is extremely intelligent.
Any proof of this? His claimed "design" doesn't look too bright to me.
To tell the truth, it looks rather silly. I could explain at length how
the human body doesn't make sense from a "design" point of view.
I might have included
that in my definition, but I didn't think of it at
the time. He can model the universe and know about
what it's going to do. He can control it in certain
ways, just like we can control a car or an aircraft,
only he's a really good pilot and navigator... and
he can visualize where things are going to go,
especially since he's steering them, and he's planned
out where he's going to steer them.
Ehm. IF he did all this, it should be measurable. And it isn't.
He knows what
he's going to do. Also, he's been at it a long, long
time and so there shouldn't be too many surprises.
Further, he knows all of us well. He can predict in
general what we as a group will do, and he can set up
plans for what to do in response to many foreseeable
things we might do.
So, he planned it all, knows what happens and therefor is either a cruel
bugger or a moron. Make your pick.
I'm not sure he knows exactly what we're going to do
as individuals. He might, but I rather expect he just
lets us work out what we want to do and then he responds,
guiding things to his planned goals,
No measurable effects of this ANYWHERE.
It is too late. I'll snip the rest....
Tokay
--
"I either want less corruption, or more chance to participate in it."
Ashleigh Brilliant
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