5. If God is our creator, then it makes sense that if we
seek him, as we approach him we will feel something. This
can be experienced by anyone. Some will say it's just an
emotional reaction, but I've studied it and it's not.

6. Anyone can open a correspondence, a communciation, with
God. If he's omniscient then he can hear you talk and he
can answer. He might choose to answer in a quiet voice,
which would seem at first like just you having thoughts.
But by following these thoughts diligently, you can
identify the direction they are coming from and move closer
- this might not be a physical direction, but a thematic
one - and get to hear His voice more clearly.

By developing this communication one can eventually come
to know that God exists. It shouldn't be hard for an
omnipotent being to provide proof once someone is seeking
Him.
Some will object that we can delude ourselves into
anything. I suggest that this exercise can be done
carefully, with a lab book to record one's experiences. By
going carefully, thinking it thru, not forgetting stuff, a
person can distinguish between real events and delusion.

Woody Brison wrote:

In the thread "Agnosticism", Tokay Pino Gris <tokay.gris.b...@gmx.net>
wrote:

Woody Brison wrote:

I can think of four or five ways that the existence of
God can be demonstrated, and in fact I think I've posted
them in the not too distant past.

Must have missed them. Care to post them again? We have been constantly
asking for evidence of this "god" or any god, in fact, but so far, we
had no luck.

OK. Sorry to not respond sooner but I don't know where I
posted that. Can't seem to find it now. No matter, I can
rewrite it probably better than I did before, like
Jeremiah.

The evidence I'm about to post requires a little bit of
explanation.

If God were standing next to you, you could verify his
existence. But since he's a long, long way away, it gets
more difficult. The evidence gets more tenuous and we might
have to think about it to get it.

Do you believe in the existence of the Tower of Pisa?

of us have never seen it yet we can verify its existence by
various means.

swing your arms around you can feel the air as it rushes
past your fingers. We cannot see the air

like we can see a plate full of turkey and gravy but we can
realize that air exists by other means, perfectly valid.

The reason the evidence for God has to be realized is not
because God doesn't exist, but because the earth is far
from God. We are here for this exact reason, to experience
life far from him.

If you define God as a purple dinosaur that controls
everything, you could examine the whole universe and not
find this;

definition. So what would be the procedure, go thru every
possible definition of God and look for each in turn?

know what God is like, so I can shorten the search. I'm
going to define God as that being who:

- created the earth
- is the father of the human race
- truly loves his children
- has the size and shape of a man
- lives forever
- exists in one place at a time
- is omnipotent, with certain limits
- is omniscient, with certain limits
- is omnipresent philosophically
- is invisible when he's hidden

One last thing about the evidence: we humans have an
amazing ability to see what we want and NOT SEE what we
don't want. Since God is a long way away from this earth -
perhaps he's in some other part of the Galaxy or maybe some
other dimension or something - and since this has been the
case for a long time, we humans are developing a racial
memory loss about him. Some of us are building resentments
against him, and we are forming theories that he doesn't
exist,

has) we are rejecting arguments and evidence that he does.
I posit that there is enough credible evidence for anyone
to suppose that He might exist - if we are not biased
against seeing it.

With this in mind, I can think of a number of evidences for
the existence of God. In some cases, it's like the explorer
who treks thru the jungle and finds the lost city of Cibola
or something. The natives wouldn't let him bring back any
artifacts but he himself knows he saw it. If we send a
number of people some report that they saw it and some say
they couldn't find it. The law of multiple witnesses can
help to analyze the situation. Proof in the artifact sense
is not presently available but anyone can verify it by
going there themself.

The evidence:

1. Mankind has a persistent tradition of a Supreme Being.

In the very oldest legends, men are children of God and
there are often stories of an idyllic happy state from
which the first two humans fell.

temples built where he could be worshipped, with actors
illustrating the above stories, with mankind being issued
special clothing and being brought back into the presence
of the Supreme Being, often via a substitute execution.

There are also legends of a worldwide flood with only a few
saved in a boat.

If these legends are all poppycock, how did they get spread
all over the world, or why do they have these similar
elements?

2. Mankind has a collective opinion about the existence of
God based partly on observation,

partly on assumption.

or Europe, you will get the impression that atheists
comprise 95% of the population.

the vast majority - it's closer to 10%.

people as to why they think God exists, and they may relate
visions, visits by angels, miracles, etc.

analogous to surveying a vast territory to look for
meteorites rather than just your own yard.

Consider time travel. The argument is made that time travel
must not be possible because if it were, we would
occasionally or often meet time travelers.

a certain fraction of us that have met angels, seen God,
known he exists, and so forth.

3. If someone is trying to find out whether God exists, it
makes sense to study what others have written who engaged
in the same quest previously.

Where God has been operating to bring about certain goals
on the earth, the people in that time and place should have
greater insights. I will list the Israelites in the time
of Moses and after; in the time of Jesus and his Apostles;
in ancient America among the Nephites; and in the
Restoration with Joseph Smith and the Mormons.

in these four milieux, people had more direct experiences
with God than usual and their writings (the Old Testament,
the New Testatment, the Book of Mormon and the LDS Doctrine
and Covenants) are therefore especially valuable.

4. In the Bible, and in Latter-day Saint teachings, there
are prophecies which have come true, defying odds.

5. If God is our creator, then it makes sense that if we
seek him, as we approach him we will feel something. This
can be experienced by anyone. Some will say it's just an
emotional reaction, but I've studied it and it's not.

6. Anyone can open a correspondence, a communciation, with
God.

can answer. He might choose to answer in a quiet voice,
which would seem at first like just you having thoughts.

But by following these thoughts diligently, you can
identify the direction they are coming from and move closer
- this might not be a physical direction, but a thematic
one - and get to hear His voice more clearly.

By developing this communication one can eventually come
to know that God exists. It shouldn't be hard for an
omnipotent being to provide proof once someone is seeking
Him.

Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that
every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and
calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my
commandments, shall see my face and know that I am...
(Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93:1)

Some will object that we can delude ourselves into
anything. I suggest that this exercise can be done
carefully, with a lab book to record one's experiences. By
going carefully, thinking it thru, not forgetting stuff, a
person can distinguish between real events and delusion.

Furthermore, the exercise can be discussed with people
having a range of bias. I think that one will encounter
the phenomenon I described above - that some people will
be unwilling to seriously consider any of this.

Check your circuits often. Are you ingesting hallucinogens?
Are you healthy? Can you solve logical problems like a
sudoku or a crossword or a solitaire game? Are you able to
have good relationships with people, as evidenced by actual
experience? Do you have a working relationship with the
world, ie. can you pay for your meals, housing, etc. or are
you a fringe personality? What does that mean if so? These
questions are related to people's ability to see what they
might not want to see.

There are many puzzles in life but if you are fairly
confident that you are seeing what is there, the thing to
do is proceed on the basis of what seems to be indicated.

7. Isaiah prophecied that in the last days, God would show
his arm. Isaiah 52:9-10; amplified by Nephi (1 Nephi 22:10-
12) who was looking at an early copy of Isaiah, probably a
little different from our present copy. In the coming
forth of the Book of Mormon we have direct, irrefutable
evidence that God exists

be seen, and Nephi says this is the fulfillment of Isaiah's
prophecy. The Lord brought forth the Book of Mormon in a
very competent way.

angel and heard His voice as the plates were exhibited.
The Holy Ghost testified to them it was true.

These three witnesses bore their testimony in writing and
stuck to this story all their lives, in spite of
persecution, strong motivation otherwise - even when they
were expelled from the Church they still refused to retract
their testimony. No one yet has been able to find a
plausible explanation, other than the one they gave,

three men would do and say this. In addition, there were
eight other men who saw the plates and verified that they
existed. They too refused to change their story all their
lives.

saw the plates - that makes 13 witnesses - there were
others such as Joseph's family who felt the plates thru a
cloth and reported that it was a stack of metal sheets,
which could be riffled like a book; that it was heavy, etc.
No one who was in a position to know reported any other
scenario. This is a proof that the Book of Mormon is true.

It would stand up in any court in the world.

There is much real evidence that the Book of Mormon is
true, and in addition to the miraculous nature of its
coming forth, the text of it tells us that God exists.

8. In the Book of Mormon there is a promise that God will
tell you the book is true, with explanations as to how to
get this to happen; along the lines of points 5 and 6. If
you get a sure knowledge from God about the book, you will
know that God exists.

Millions of people have realized the above promise and can
testify (and do) that the Book of Mormon is true, that God
exists, and that the Church of Jesus Christ has been
restored to the earth.

of the Church any Sunday,

of the month we have what we call testimony meeting where
anyone can go to the microphone and speak their mind. It's
a very convenient and easy way for you to hear some of
these people testify that they have realized this promise.

9. Jesus gave a very significant key:

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to
you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening
wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men
gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so
every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt
tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring
forth evil fruit,

good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit
is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their
fruits ye shall know them.

I theorize that Jesus understood that the doctrines of
Christianity would get muddled after 2000 years, so he gave
this key as a way to identify true prophets from false in a
way that does not depend on their doctrine. (How can we be
sure some prophet is teaching us the right or wrong
doctrine if we don't know for sure what the right doctrine
is?) But in the results there is certainty - results never
lie.

Some will say the Bible tells us there will never be any
more prophets. You have to stretch some passages to get
that, and why would Jesus give this key if so? He'd have
simply said, "There will be no more prophets, any who claim
to be are false."

The Latter-day Saints have been following their prophets
for about 180 years. Results: they are a vigorous people,
one of the faster-growing churches, and the LDS have
generally better health and less depression, more college
graduates, they have more fun without chemical stimulants,
they have turned deserts into gardens, and in many other
ways exhibit the results of following a good prophet. The
Latter-day Saints are a living testimony that God exists.

10. One of the significant doctrines of the LDS is that
men should pay tithing, and that if they do they will be
blessed economically and in other ways.

tenth of your income. It's explained in the book of Malachi:

Malachi 3:10-12 Bring ye all the tithes into the
storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and
prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will
not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a
blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive
it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he
shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither
shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the
field, saith the LORD of hosts. And all nations shall
call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land,
saith the LORD of hosts.

You can test this promise yourself. Anyone can pay
tithing, you don't have to be a member of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or pay your tithing to
one of our bishops.

and donate it to some charity - choose a really good one,
like say a children's hospital or something. Do this for a
year or two and see what happens. Record the results in a
notebook and study them. If the results show unequivocably
that you have been blessed in a supernatural way, then you
have verified this proof of the existence of God. If you
don't want to commit 10% of your income, do 5% or 1%, and
look for lesser, but still nonzero effects.

I will be minding this thread. I will try to respond to
objections, and I admit I may not know answers to all of
them. I do know that God exists, and since the question
came up, I offer my services to help resolve the question
for anyone that wants to resolve it.