| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Katt" |
| Date: |
31 Oct 2005 04:21:18 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
<iftikhargul@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130604306.826905.25140@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Atheism is also a belief in non-existance of God
Nope. Stop lying about atheists.
and all beleivers in
atheism very strongly defend their belief, call it their narrow
mindedness or enlightment, it is no different than the passion people
expresses in their religious beliefs such as christianity.
I see: you now think you speak for all atheists as well as all Christians.
Fascinating symptom.
I separated
all beliefs including atheism. Looks like you are a narrow minded
person incapable of understanding intelligent arguments. Calling people
liars without provocation shows that you need to grow up.
You are still lying about atheism. Atheists don't have 'a belief in [the]
non-existance [sic] of God [sic]': the very *notion* of that specific
god-fantasy - one of countless thousands of such fantasies, all of them
completely without evidential support - *simply has no meaning* outside of
the (in your tradition's case) Biblical belief system. Furthermore,
'strength of conviction' or 'passion' are not in any sense proof of
'religion'; and rational belief founded on an evidential basis is NOT the
same as proudly and determinedly counter-factual 'religious faith'. So I
repeat: *Atheism is not a religion*.
God-deluded people and their appeasers continually try to bring these silly
superstitions before non-believers -- and these non-believers respond by
saying (i) that there is not the slightest evidence for any of the thousands
of different god-fantasies that have swarmed and multiplied in the darkness
of the primitive mind; and (ii) that an overwhelming mass of modern human
knowledge makes the existence of every one of these 'gods' completely
implausible, even where the actual claims of a given 'religion' aren't
ridiculous on strictly logical grounds. Atheism is as much a 'religion' as
*your rational and principled and determined refusal to believe in the
Easter Bunny* is 'a religion'. Atheism is merely *a position adopted with
regard to a religious issue*. And if you can't see the difference between
those two things, then you are pitiful as well as despicable.
Katt.
.
|
|
| User: "Jim07D5" |
|
| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
17 Nov 2005 09:55:53 PM |
|
|
(Jason) said:
<...>
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
Jason
Do you mean to assert that because one or more assertions in the Bible
are true, all of them are true?
--- Jim07D5
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jason" |
|
| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
17 Nov 2005 10:31:46 PM |
|
|
In article <h2kqn11ohibaiv8isong59pgcngi7lpou6@4ax.com>, Jim07D5
<Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:
jason@nospam.com (Jason) said:
<...>
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
Jason
Do you mean to assert that because one or more assertions in the Bible
are true, all of them are true?
--- Jim07D5
Jim,
Great point. I don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct. As you may know, the writers of the Bible were humans and all
humans are subject to making errors. I do believe that they did their best
to be correct. Some Christians believe every word of the Bible. I use
common sense and "wisdom" when I read the Bible or listen to a sermon.
Thanks for your post.
Jason
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 08:06:29 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:31:46 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <h2kqn11ohibaiv8isong59pgcngi7lpou6@4ax.com>, Jim07D5
<Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:
(Jason) said:
<...>
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
Jason
Do you mean to assert that because one or more assertions in the Bible
are true, all of them are true?
--- Jim07D5
Jim,
Great point. I don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct. As you may know, the writers of the Bible were humans and all
humans are subject to making errors. I do believe that they did their best
to be correct.
What about bias?
Would a devout believing author of this account write of things that
contradict or undermine his belief? Let's say an descendant of a
descedant of an actual observer told him that he had been told by his
grandad that Moses was lying when he said he had spoken to god, he was
there and saw nothing. Would this religious observer report this, with
appropriate caveats or only Moses account? None of the people present
at the Golen Calf incident have their story of what happened in the
Bible but as we know it is the Victor who writes the history.
Think how fickle memory is, or how things can become legend with
accretions down the generations. If the Bible accounts were written
long after the event then, if the writer was genuinely trying to be
honest he would have mentioned this not written a detailed account
of exactly everything that happened and was said as if he was
there would he?
Some Christians believe every word of the Bible. I use
common sense and "wisdom" when I read the Bible or listen to a sermon.
Hmm...
:-)
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jason" |
|
| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 10:30:37 AM |
|
|
In article <9dnrn1tv7ah6n6st2lk31od0c5qrcj4pk4@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:31:46 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <h2kqn11ohibaiv8isong59pgcngi7lpou6@4ax.com>, Jim07D5
<Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:
(Jason) said:
<...>
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a
Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
Jason
Do you mean to assert that because one or more assertions in the Bible
are true, all of them are true?
--- Jim07D5
Jim,
Great point. I don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct. As you may know, the writers of the Bible were humans and all
humans are subject to making errors. I do believe that they did their best
to be correct.
What about bias?
Would a devout believing author of this account write of things that
contradict or undermine his belief? Let's say an descendant of a
descedant of an actual observer told him that he had been told by his
grandad that Moses was lying when he said he had spoken to god, he was
there and saw nothing. Would this religious observer report this, with
appropriate caveats or only Moses account? None of the people present
at the Golen Calf incident have their story of what happened in the
Bible but as we know it is the Victor who writes the history.
Think how fickle memory is, or how things can become legend with
accretions down the generations. If the Bible accounts were written
long after the event then, if the writer was genuinely trying to be
honest he would have mentioned this not written a detailed account
of exactly everything that happened and was said as if he was
there would he?
Some Christians believe every word of the Bible. I use
common sense and "wisdom" when I read the Bible or listen to a sermon.
Hmm...
:-)
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Les,
I don't waste my time speculating about these sorts of issues. Since we
have so little information in regard to that time period, we can only
speculate since we don't have hardly any facts to consider.
Jason
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
17 Nov 2005 10:45:16 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:31:46 -0800, in alt.atheism
jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711052031460001@pm4-broad-45.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <h2kqn11ohibaiv8isong59pgcngi7lpou6@4ax.com>, Jim07D5
<Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:
jason@nospam.com (Jason) said:
<...>
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
Jason
Do you mean to assert that because one or more assertions in the Bible
are true, all of them are true?
--- Jim07D5
Jim,
Great point. I don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct. As you may know, the writers of the Bible were humans and all
humans are subject to making errors. I do believe that they did their best
to be correct. Some Christians believe every word of the Bible. I use
common sense and "wisdom" when I read the Bible or listen to a sermon.
Thanks for your post.
If you don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct, why would you claim that things that are known to be incorrect
are correct?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jason" |
|
| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
17 Nov 2005 11:16:32 PM |
|
|
In article <k1nqn1tqrtj5pgla0sr5d2do815d7b1vti@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:31:46 -0800, in alt.atheism
jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711052031460001@pm4-broad-45.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <h2kqn11ohibaiv8isong59pgcngi7lpou6@4ax.com>, Jim07D5
<Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:
jason@nospam.com (Jason) said:
<...>
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a
Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
Jason
Do you mean to assert that because one or more assertions in the Bible
are true, all of them are true?
--- Jim07D5
Jim,
Great point. I don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct. As you may know, the writers of the Bible were humans and all
humans are subject to making errors. I do believe that they did their best
to be correct. Some Christians believe every word of the Bible. I use
common sense and "wisdom" when I read the Bible or listen to a sermon.
Thanks for your post.
If you don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct, why would you claim that things that are known to be incorrect
are correct?
The only example that comes to mind is the time that Jesus washed the feet
of his deciples. I believe that Jesus really did wash the feet of his
deciples. I once had an employee that worked for me. She was a member of a
church that conducted a foot washing ceremony. I would never join a church
that viewed scriptures in that way. Some Christians won't even go to
doctors or allow
family members to receive blood transfusions. I would never do those things.
I also see no need to abide by the Jewish laws discussed in the Old Testament.
Jason
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 08:46:54 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 21:16:32 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <k1nqn1tqrtj5pgla0sr5d2do815d7b1vti@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:31:46 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711052031460001@pm4-broad-45.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <h2kqn11ohibaiv8isong59pgcngi7lpou6@4ax.com>, Jim07D5
<Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:
(Jason) said:
<...>
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a
Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
Jason
Do you mean to assert that because one or more assertions in the Bible
are true, all of them are true?
--- Jim07D5
Jim,
Great point. I don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct. As you may know, the writers of the Bible were humans and all
humans are subject to making errors. I do believe that they did their best
to be correct. Some Christians believe every word of the Bible. I use
common sense and "wisdom" when I read the Bible or listen to a sermon.
Thanks for your post.
If you don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct, why would you claim that things that are known to be incorrect
are correct?
The only example that comes to mind is the time that Jesus washed the feet
of his deciples. I believe that Jesus really did wash the feet of his
deciples. I once had an employee that worked for me. She was a member of a
church that conducted a foot washing ceremony. I would never join a church
that viewed scriptures in that way. Some Christians won't even go to
doctors or allow
family members to receive blood transfusions. I would never do those things.
I also see no need to abide by the Jewish laws discussed in the Old Testament.
A pick 'n mix Christian! But then all Christians are pick 'n mix not
doing what they aught to do but what suits them. The problem of course
is deciding what their god actually wants them to do and then do it
whether they like it or not.
If the god you believe says you should not bear false witness then you
should not bear false witness. If the god you believe wants you
to stand on you head three times a day you should stand on your
head three times a day whether you hate doing it or not.
There is the rub and this is the fatal flaw that is self-destroying
Christianity as a viable religion. You simply do not know even if your
god actually exists, let alone know what the god desires. You
cannot rely on the Bible as an infallible guide. This is obvious from
the multiplicity of Christian sects all believing they know exactly
how to interpret the Bible. The fragmentation of Christianity in the
USA into dozens, maybe hundreds of sects each claiming to
know the truth is an obvious sign that Christianity is in crisis
as they realise they are lost without a guide. This growing
crisis began of course when Luther posted his thesis and
accelerated when people could read the Bible for themselves
and make their own judgements. No wonder the Pope did not
approve :-)
Soon the religion will start to fade into nothing and Islam, which
is largely united (just two sects I understand) will begin to
dominate. Already many Christians have converted to it. Without
doubt the Moslem religion through the Koran does give its
followers a clear direction to follow, though it is a wrong one in
my view.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jason" |
|
| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 10:35:31 AM |
|
|
In article <86prn1hegk9f71r27vrmdg1tift0s53ts3@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 21:16:32 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <k1nqn1tqrtj5pgla0sr5d2do815d7b1vti@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:31:46 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711052031460001@pm4-broad-45.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <h2kqn11ohibaiv8isong59pgcngi7lpou6@4ax.com>, Jim07D5
<Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:
(Jason) said:
<...>
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a
Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years
ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
Jason
Do you mean to assert that because one or more assertions in the Bible
are true, all of them are true?
--- Jim07D5
Jim,
Great point. I don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct. As you may know, the writers of the Bible were humans and all
humans are subject to making errors. I do believe that they did their best
to be correct. Some Christians believe every word of the Bible. I use
common sense and "wisdom" when I read the Bible or listen to a sermon.
Thanks for your post.
If you don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct, why would you claim that things that are known to be incorrect
are correct?
The only example that comes to mind is the time that Jesus washed the feet
of his deciples. I believe that Jesus really did wash the feet of his
deciples. I once had an employee that worked for me. She was a member of a
church that conducted a foot washing ceremony. I would never join a church
that viewed scriptures in that way. Some Christians won't even go to
doctors or allow
family members to receive blood transfusions. I would never do those things.
I also see no need to abide by the Jewish laws discussed in the Old
Testament.
A pick 'n mix Christian! But then all Christians are pick 'n mix not
doing what they aught to do but what suits them. The problem of course
is deciding what their god actually wants them to do and then do it
whether they like it or not.
If the god you believe says you should not bear false witness then you
should not bear false witness. If the god you believe wants you
to stand on you head three times a day you should stand on your
head three times a day whether you hate doing it or not.
There is the rub and this is the fatal flaw that is self-destroying
Christianity as a viable religion. You simply do not know even if your
god actually exists, let alone know what the god desires. You
cannot rely on the Bible as an infallible guide. This is obvious from
the multiplicity of Christian sects all believing they know exactly
how to interpret the Bible. The fragmentation of Christianity in the
USA into dozens, maybe hundreds of sects each claiming to
know the truth is an obvious sign that Christianity is in crisis
as they realise they are lost without a guide. This growing
crisis began of course when Luther posted his thesis and
accelerated when people could read the Bible for themselves
and make their own judgements. No wonder the Pope did not
approve :-)
Soon the religion will start to fade into nothing and Islam, which
is largely united (just two sects I understand) will begin to
dominate. Already many Christians have converted to it. Without
doubt the Moslem religion through the Koran does give its
followers a clear direction to follow, though it is a wrong one in
my view.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Les,
That's also the reason we have so many different denominations. It seems
that Christians can't agree on almost anything. Some "church splits" still
take place. This simply means that the various members of the church
believe one thing or doctine and other members take the opposite side.
This either leads to the church shutting down or the creation of another
church. The Muslims have this same problem--there are two branches of the
Muslim religion.
Jason
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 11:11:57 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:35:31 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <86prn1hegk9f71r27vrmdg1tift0s53ts3@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 21:16:32 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <k1nqn1tqrtj5pgla0sr5d2do815d7b1vti@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:31:46 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711052031460001@pm4-broad-45.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <h2kqn11ohibaiv8isong59pgcngi7lpou6@4ax.com>, Jim07D5
<Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:
(Jason) said:
<...>
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a
Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years
ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
Jason
Do you mean to assert that because one or more assertions in the Bible
are true, all of them are true?
--- Jim07D5
Jim,
Great point. I don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct. As you may know, the writers of the Bible were humans and all
humans are subject to making errors. I do believe that they did their best
to be correct. Some Christians believe every word of the Bible. I use
common sense and "wisdom" when I read the Bible or listen to a sermon.
Thanks for your post.
If you don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct, why would you claim that things that are known to be incorrect
are correct?
The only example that comes to mind is the time that Jesus washed the feet
of his deciples. I believe that Jesus really did wash the feet of his
deciples. I once had an employee that worked for me. She was a member of a
church that conducted a foot washing ceremony. I would never join a church
that viewed scriptures in that way. Some Christians won't even go to
doctors or allow
family members to receive blood transfusions. I would never do those things.
I also see no need to abide by the Jewish laws discussed in the Old
Testament.
A pick 'n mix Christian! But then all Christians are pick 'n mix not
doing what they aught to do but what suits them. The problem of course
is deciding what their god actually wants them to do and then do it
whether they like it or not.
If the god you believe says you should not bear false witness then you
should not bear false witness. If the god you believe wants you
to stand on you head three times a day you should stand on your
head three times a day whether you hate doing it or not.
There is the rub and this is the fatal flaw that is self-destroying
Christianity as a viable religion. You simply do not know even if your
god actually exists, let alone know what the god desires. You
cannot rely on the Bible as an infallible guide. This is obvious from
the multiplicity of Christian sects all believing they know exactly
how to interpret the Bible. The fragmentation of Christianity in the
USA into dozens, maybe hundreds of sects each claiming to
know the truth is an obvious sign that Christianity is in crisis
as they realise they are lost without a guide. This growing
crisis began of course when Luther posted his thesis and
accelerated when people could read the Bible for themselves
and make their own judgements. No wonder the Pope did not
approve :-)
Soon the religion will start to fade into nothing and Islam, which
is largely united (just two sects I understand) will begin to
dominate. Already many Christians have converted to it. Without
doubt the Moslem religion through the Koran does give its
followers a clear direction to follow, though it is a wrong one in
my view.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Les,
That's also the reason we have so many different denominations. It seems
that Christians can't agree on almost anything. Some "church splits" still
take place. This simply means that the various members of the church
believe one thing or doctine and other members take the opposite side.
This either leads to the church shutting down or the creation of another
church. The Muslims have this same problem--there are two branches of the
Muslim religion.
Yes but only two. This could be, of course, that the religious leaders
still have a firm grip on what people are allowed to belief. In Iran
I understand they even have religious Police and religious courts
whilst Christianity cannot survive intact in lands where we have
liberty and freedom of conscience
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
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| User: "Jason" |
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| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 12:42:16 PM |
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In article <8m2sn1h70dbj4luab5sfmc31us3eoqb789@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:35:31 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <86prn1hegk9f71r27vrmdg1tift0s53ts3@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 21:16:32 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <k1nqn1tqrtj5pgla0sr5d2do815d7b1vti@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:31:46 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711052031460001@pm4-broad-45.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <h2kqn11ohibaiv8isong59pgcngi7lpou6@4ax.com>, Jim07D5
<Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:
(Jason) said:
<...>
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various
cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a
Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years
ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
Jason
Do you mean to assert that because one or more assertions in
the Bible
are true, all of them are true?
--- Jim07D5
Jim,
Great point. I don't think that everything that is written in the
Bible is
correct. As you may know, the writers of the Bible were humans and all
humans are subject to making errors. I do believe that they did
their best
to be correct. Some Christians believe every word of the Bible. I use
common sense and "wisdom" when I read the Bible or listen to a sermon.
Thanks for your post.
If you don't think that everything that is written in the Bible is
correct, why would you claim that things that are known to be incorrect
are correct?
The only example that comes to mind is the time that Jesus washed the feet
of his deciples. I believe that Jesus really did wash the feet of his
deciples. I once had an employee that worked for me. She was a member of a
church that conducted a foot washing ceremony. I would never join a church
that viewed scriptures in that way. Some Christians won't even go to
doctors or allow
family members to receive blood transfusions. I would never do those
things.
I also see no need to abide by the Jewish laws discussed in the Old
Testament.
A pick 'n mix Christian! But then all Christians are pick 'n mix not
doing what they aught to do but what suits them. The problem of course
is deciding what their god actually wants them to do and then do it
whether they like it or not.
If the god you believe says you should not bear false witness then you
should not bear false witness. If the god you believe wants you
to stand on you head three times a day you should stand on your
head three times a day whether you hate doing it or not.
There is the rub and this is the fatal flaw that is self-destroying
Christianity as a viable religion. You simply do not know even if your
god actually exists, let alone know what the god desires. You
cannot rely on the Bible as an infallible guide. This is obvious from
the multiplicity of Christian sects all believing they know exactly
how to interpret the Bible. The fragmentation of Christianity in the
USA into dozens, maybe hundreds of sects each claiming to
know the truth is an obvious sign that Christianity is in crisis
as they realise they are lost without a guide. This growing
crisis began of course when Luther posted his thesis and
accelerated when people could read the Bible for themselves
and make their own judgements. No wonder the Pope did not
approve :-)
Soon the religion will start to fade into nothing and Islam, which
is largely united (just two sects I understand) will begin to
dominate. Already many Christians have converted to it. Without
doubt the Moslem religion through the Koran does give its
followers a clear direction to follow, though it is a wrong one in
my view.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Les,
That's also the reason we have so many different denominations. It seems
that Christians can't agree on almost anything. Some "church splits" still
take place. This simply means that the various members of the church
believe one thing or doctine and other members take the opposite side.
This either leads to the church shutting down or the creation of another
church. The Muslims have this same problem--there are two branches of the
Muslim religion.
Yes but only two. This could be, of course, that the religious leaders
still have a firm grip on what people are allowed to belief. In Iran
I understand they even have religious Police and religious courts
whilst Christianity cannot survive intact in lands where we have
liberty and freedom of conscience
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
The Puritans also had stict control over their people. The Muslims in free
countries such as USA and Europe might eventually start other branches of
the Muslim Religion.
Jason
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 07:54:11 AM |
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On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:39:41 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <mg9qn11ndueieujtbvrdbfmoe5q708d3ds@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:28:29 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051528290001@pm4-broad-52.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <sfupn1tmbuoj4qi6pmd043v61uipl3efgv@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:23:42 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051323420001@pm4-broad-57.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <4cipn1p5j0srck5tn0utkadv98tn8ag78r@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
...
I did not claim god ordered to kill he did. UK Jews if they
follow the news will know of this claim. I am just the messenger
here. I am sure they may be offended but it is their problem. They
have to explain how they know Moses was telling the truth and The
Ripper was lying.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Les,
You should read what the Bible states in regard to Moses
having conversations with God--there were lots of witnesses
related to some of those times that Moses talked with God.
No, you need to learn about what a witness is and what the provenance of
a story is. Nothing in the Books of Moses can be verified.
Just because a serial killer states that God told him
to do something is a separate issue. Each of the situations
are different. I doubt that any subscriber to this newsgroup
believes that since God did not talk to the serial killer
that means that God never talked to Moses. That argument
does not make sense. God could have talked to Moses
but not talked to the serial killer. An example:
I talk to Sam but never talked to Bill.
Bill says that he talked to me.
Does that mean that I never talked to Sam?
Since Moses and all of the people on the journey with
Moses are now dead--eye witness testimony would
be impossible.
That's why it is a false statement to assert that there is eyewitness
evidence. Not only are all of the witnesses dead, but none of the
witnesses actually wrote down the story.
All that we have is the written
evidence recorded in the Bible.
Which is not evidence and was not written during Moses's life.
If you don't believe
that written evidence--so be it.
It is written, but it conflicts with physical evidence. Written stories
always lose to conflicting physical evidence.
Just because you
don't accept the Bible as evidence, that does not
mean that millions of other people don't accept
it as evidence.
It doesn't matter what I accept. Physical evidence is always better than
uncorroborated writings. Writings that were made long after the fact
from oral traditions are interesting, and may be useful in trying to
identify actual history, but they are not reliable. The Bible has
already shown in many areas that it is not reliable. Your refusal to
accept the physical evidence that shows that the Bible, as you
understand it, is wrong, does not change those facts.
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
I am sure there are probably secular things, like the locations and
existence oft town and cities that can sometimes be confirmed as
having some basis in truth but this is a far cry from the whole book
being true. Even on matters scientific simple obsevation was all that
was needed for some of the elemental basics.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 09:39:22 AM |
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On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:54:11 +0000, in alt.atheism
Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
<a0nrn1tcij7eul2u3i8g50efpb4duhaqpr@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:39:41 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <mg9qn11ndueieujtbvrdbfmoe5q708d3ds@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:28:29 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051528290001@pm4-broad-52.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <sfupn1tmbuoj4qi6pmd043v61uipl3efgv@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:23:42 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051323420001@pm4-broad-57.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <4cipn1p5j0srck5tn0utkadv98tn8ag78r@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
...
I did not claim god ordered to kill he did. UK Jews if they
follow the news will know of this claim. I am just the messenger
here. I am sure they may be offended but it is their problem. They
have to explain how they know Moses was telling the truth and The
Ripper was lying.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Les,
You should read what the Bible states in regard to Moses
having conversations with God--there were lots of witnesses
related to some of those times that Moses talked with God.
No, you need to learn about what a witness is and what the provenance of
a story is. Nothing in the Books of Moses can be verified.
Just because a serial killer states that God told him
to do something is a separate issue. Each of the situations
are different. I doubt that any subscriber to this newsgroup
believes that since God did not talk to the serial killer
that means that God never talked to Moses. That argument
does not make sense. God could have talked to Moses
but not talked to the serial killer. An example:
I talk to Sam but never talked to Bill.
Bill says that he talked to me.
Does that mean that I never talked to Sam?
Since Moses and all of the people on the journey with
Moses are now dead--eye witness testimony would
be impossible.
That's why it is a false statement to assert that there is eyewitness
evidence. Not only are all of the witnesses dead, but none of the
witnesses actually wrote down the story.
All that we have is the written
evidence recorded in the Bible.
Which is not evidence and was not written during Moses's life.
If you don't believe
that written evidence--so be it.
It is written, but it conflicts with physical evidence. Written stories
always lose to conflicting physical evidence.
Just because you
don't accept the Bible as evidence, that does not
mean that millions of other people don't accept
it as evidence.
It doesn't matter what I accept. Physical evidence is always better than
uncorroborated writings. Writings that were made long after the fact
from oral traditions are interesting, and may be useful in trying to
identify actual history, but they are not reliable. The Bible has
already shown in many areas that it is not reliable. Your refusal to
accept the physical evidence that shows that the Bible, as you
understand it, is wrong, does not change those facts.
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
I am sure there are probably secular things, like the locations and
existence oft town and cities that can sometimes be confirmed as
having some basis in truth but this is a far cry from the whole book
being true. Even on matters scientific simple obsevation was all that
was needed for some of the elemental basics.
O, disappointment! Are you telling me that the mere existence of Troy
isn't total proof of the existence of the Greek gods? I am crushed.
.
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| User: "Jason" |
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| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 12:37:45 PM |
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In article <2btrn1d75s5pe4hc79a5shtlujvkno9i3m@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:54:11 +0000, in alt.atheism
Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
<a0nrn1tcij7eul2u3i8g50efpb4duhaqpr@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:39:41 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <mg9qn11ndueieujtbvrdbfmoe5q708d3ds@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:28:29 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051528290001@pm4-broad-52.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <sfupn1tmbuoj4qi6pmd043v61uipl3efgv@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:23:42 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051323420001@pm4-broad-57.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <4cipn1p5j0srck5tn0utkadv98tn8ag78r@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
...
I did not claim god ordered to kill he did. UK Jews if they
follow the news will know of this claim. I am just the messenger
here. I am sure they may be offended but it is their problem. They
have to explain how they know Moses was telling the truth and The
Ripper was lying.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Les,
You should read what the Bible states in regard to Moses
having conversations with God--there were lots of witnesses
related to some of those times that Moses talked with God.
No, you need to learn about what a witness is and what the
provenance of
a story is. Nothing in the Books of Moses can be verified.
Just because a serial killer states that God told him
to do something is a separate issue. Each of the situations
are different. I doubt that any subscriber to this newsgroup
believes that since God did not talk to the serial killer
that means that God never talked to Moses. That argument
does not make sense. God could have talked to Moses
but not talked to the serial killer. An example:
I talk to Sam but never talked to Bill.
Bill says that he talked to me.
Does that mean that I never talked to Sam?
Since Moses and all of the people on the journey with
Moses are now dead--eye witness testimony would
be impossible.
That's why it is a false statement to assert that there is eyewitness
evidence. Not only are all of the witnesses dead, but none of the
witnesses actually wrote down the story.
All that we have is the written
evidence recorded in the Bible.
Which is not evidence and was not written during Moses's life.
If you don't believe
that written evidence--so be it.
It is written, but it conflicts with physical evidence. Written stories
always lose to conflicting physical evidence.
Just because you
don't accept the Bible as evidence, that does not
mean that millions of other people don't accept
it as evidence.
It doesn't matter what I accept. Physical evidence is always better than
uncorroborated writings. Writings that were made long after the fact
from oral traditions are interesting, and may be useful in trying to
identify actual history, but they are not reliable. The Bible has
already shown in many areas that it is not reliable. Your refusal to
accept the physical evidence that shows that the Bible, as you
understand it, is wrong, does not change those facts.
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
I am sure there are probably secular things, like the locations and
existence oft town and cities that can sometimes be confirmed as
having some basis in truth but this is a far cry from the whole book
being true. Even on matters scientific simple obsevation was all that
was needed for some of the elemental basics.
O, disappointment! Are you telling me that the mere existence of Troy
isn't total proof of the existence of the Greek gods? I am crushed.
LOL--thanks for your post.
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 10:44:26 AM |
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|
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:39:22 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:54:11 +0000, in alt.atheism
Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
<a0nrn1tcij7eul2u3i8g50efpb4duhaqpr@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:39:41 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <mg9qn11ndueieujtbvrdbfmoe5q708d3ds@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:28:29 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051528290001@pm4-broad-52.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <sfupn1tmbuoj4qi6pmd043v61uipl3efgv@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:23:42 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051323420001@pm4-broad-57.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <4cipn1p5j0srck5tn0utkadv98tn8ag78r@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
...
I did not claim god ordered to kill he did. UK Jews if they
follow the news will know of this claim. I am just the messenger
here. I am sure they may be offended but it is their problem. They
have to explain how they know Moses was telling the truth and The
Ripper was lying.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Les,
You should read what the Bible states in regard to Moses
having conversations with God--there were lots of witnesses
related to some of those times that Moses talked with God.
No, you need to learn about what a witness is and what the provenance of
a story is. Nothing in the Books of Moses can be verified.
Just because a serial killer states that God told him
to do something is a separate issue. Each of the situations
are different. I doubt that any subscriber to this newsgroup
believes that since God did not talk to the serial killer
that means that God never talked to Moses. That argument
does not make sense. God could have talked to Moses
but not talked to the serial killer. An example:
I talk to Sam but never talked to Bill.
Bill says that he talked to me.
Does that mean that I never talked to Sam?
Since Moses and all of the people on the journey with
Moses are now dead--eye witness testimony would
be impossible.
That's why it is a false statement to assert that there is eyewitness
evidence. Not only are all of the witnesses dead, but none of the
witnesses actually wrote down the story.
All that we have is the written
evidence recorded in the Bible.
Which is not evidence and was not written during Moses's life.
If you don't believe
that written evidence--so be it.
It is written, but it conflicts with physical evidence. Written stories
always lose to conflicting physical evidence.
Just because you
don't accept the Bible as evidence, that does not
mean that millions of other people don't accept
it as evidence.
It doesn't matter what I accept. Physical evidence is always better than
uncorroborated writings. Writings that were made long after the fact
from oral traditions are interesting, and may be useful in trying to
identify actual history, but they are not reliable. The Bible has
already shown in many areas that it is not reliable. Your refusal to
accept the physical evidence that shows that the Bible, as you
understand it, is wrong, does not change those facts.
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
I am sure there are probably secular things, like the locations and
existence oft town and cities that can sometimes be confirmed as
having some basis in truth but this is a far cry from the whole book
being true. Even on matters scientific simple obsevation was all that
was needed for some of the elemental basics.
O, disappointment! Are you telling me that the mere existence of Troy
isn't total proof of the existence of the Greek gods? I am crushed.
I know :-(
Actually are they certain they have found Troy? I know the tourist
companies think they have, but AFAIK it is far from cut and dried
that the tourist destination known as 'Troy' is actually it.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 12:47:31 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:44:26 +0000, in alt.atheism
Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
<mu0sn19fvvdkmis2cisvuqfl19t43j70f2@4ax.com>:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:39:22 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:54:11 +0000, in alt.atheism
Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
<a0nrn1tcij7eul2u3i8g50efpb4duhaqpr@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:39:41 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <mg9qn11ndueieujtbvrdbfmoe5q708d3ds@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:28:29 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051528290001@pm4-broad-52.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <sfupn1tmbuoj4qi6pmd043v61uipl3efgv@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:23:42 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051323420001@pm4-broad-57.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <4cipn1p5j0srck5tn0utkadv98tn8ag78r@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
...
I did not claim god ordered to kill he did. UK Jews if they
follow the news will know of this claim. I am just the messenger
here. I am sure they may be offended but it is their problem. They
have to explain how they know Moses was telling the truth and The
Ripper was lying.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Les,
You should read what the Bible states in regard to Moses
having conversations with God--there were lots of witnesses
related to some of those times that Moses talked with God.
No, you need to learn about what a witness is and what the provenance of
a story is. Nothing in the Books of Moses can be verified.
Just because a serial killer states that God told him
to do something is a separate issue. Each of the situations
are different. I doubt that any subscriber to this newsgroup
believes that since God did not talk to the serial killer
that means that God never talked to Moses. That argument
does not make sense. God could have talked to Moses
but not talked to the serial killer. An example:
I talk to Sam but never talked to Bill.
Bill says that he talked to me.
Does that mean that I never talked to Sam?
Since Moses and all of the people on the journey with
Moses are now dead--eye witness testimony would
be impossible.
That's why it is a false statement to assert that there is eyewitness
evidence. Not only are all of the witnesses dead, but none of the
witnesses actually wrote down the story.
All that we have is the written
evidence recorded in the Bible.
Which is not evidence and was not written during Moses's life.
If you don't believe
that written evidence--so be it.
It is written, but it conflicts with physical evidence. Written stories
always lose to conflicting physical evidence.
Just because you
don't accept the Bible as evidence, that does not
mean that millions of other people don't accept
it as evidence.
It doesn't matter what I accept. Physical evidence is always better than
uncorroborated writings. Writings that were made long after the fact
from oral traditions are interesting, and may be useful in trying to
identify actual history, but they are not reliable. The Bible has
already shown in many areas that it is not reliable. Your refusal to
accept the physical evidence that shows that the Bible, as you
understand it, is wrong, does not change those facts.
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
I am sure there are probably secular things, like the locations and
existence oft town and cities that can sometimes be confirmed as
having some basis in truth but this is a far cry from the whole book
being true. Even on matters scientific simple obsevation was all that
was needed for some of the elemental basics.
O, disappointment! Are you telling me that the mere existence of Troy
isn't total proof of the existence of the Greek gods? I am crushed.
I know :-(
Actually are they certain they have found Troy? I know the tourist
companies think they have, but AFAIK it is far from cut and dried
that the tourist destination known as 'Troy' is actually it.
That I had not heard. Of course, the person who wrote the history book I
used in high school had been a near contemporary of Schliemann.
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Evolution has become a state religion |
18 Nov 2005 02:13:52 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:47:31 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:44:26 +0000, in alt.atheism
Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
<mu0sn19fvvdkmis2cisvuqfl19t43j70f2@4ax.com>:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:39:22 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:54:11 +0000, in alt.atheism
Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
<a0nrn1tcij7eul2u3i8g50efpb4duhaqpr@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:39:41 -0800, (Jason) wrote:
In article <mg9qn11ndueieujtbvrdbfmoe5q708d3ds@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:28:29 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051528290001@pm4-broad-52.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <sfupn1tmbuoj4qi6pmd043v61uipl3efgv@4ax.com>, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:23:42 -0800, in alt.atheism
(Jason) wrote in
<jason-1711051323420001@pm4-broad-57.snlo.dialup.fix.net>:
In article <4cipn1p5j0srck5tn0utkadv98tn8ag78r@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
...
I did not claim god ordered to kill he did. UK Jews if they
follow the news will know of this claim. I am just the messenger
here. I am sure they may be offended but it is their problem. They
have to explain how they know Moses was telling the truth and The
Ripper was lying.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Les,
You should read what the Bible states in regard to Moses
having conversations with God--there were lots of witnesses
related to some of those times that Moses talked with God.
No, you need to learn about what a witness is and what the provenance of
a story is. Nothing in the Books of Moses can be verified.
Just because a serial killer states that God told him
to do something is a separate issue. Each of the situations
are different. I doubt that any subscriber to this newsgroup
believes that since God did not talk to the serial killer
that means that God never talked to Moses. That argument
does not make sense. God could have talked to Moses
but not talked to the serial killer. An example:
I talk to Sam but never talked to Bill.
Bill says that he talked to me.
Does that mean that I never talked to Sam?
Since Moses and all of the people on the journey with
Moses are now dead--eye witness testimony would
be impossible.
That's why it is a false statement to assert that there is eyewitness
evidence. Not only are all of the witnesses dead, but none of the
witnesses actually wrote down the story.
All that we have is the written
evidence recorded in the Bible.
Which is not evidence and was not written during Moses's life.
If you don't believe
that written evidence--so be it.
It is written, but it conflicts with physical evidence. Written stories
always lose to conflicting physical evidence.
Just because you
don't accept the Bible as evidence, that does not
mean that millions of other people don't accept
it as evidence.
It doesn't matter what I accept. Physical evidence is always better than
uncorroborated writings. Writings that were made long after the fact
from oral traditions are interesting, and may be useful in trying to
identify actual history, but they are not reliable. The Bible has
already shown in many areas that it is not reliable. Your refusal to
accept the physical evidence that shows that the Bible, as you
understand it, is wrong, does not change those facts.
I don't know whether or not colleges are still requiring all of the
students seeking degrees in Paleontology (and related fields) to
take at least one course in Bible History. The colleges that still
have this requirement do it because the Bible mentions various cities
and towns. At one time, the critics of the Bible believed that some
of the cities mentioned in the Bible were just based on myth and not
fact. Some of those cities mentioned in the Bible have been found.
Please don't ask me to prove it but I seem to recall reading in a Christian
magazine that the city of Jericho (sp??) was found (several years ago).
My point is that the written evidence in the Bible is true.
I am sure there are probably secular things, like the locations and
existence oft town and cities that can sometimes be confirmed as
having some basis in truth but this is a far cry from the whole book
being true. Even on matters scientific simple obsevation was all that
was needed for some of the elemental basics.
O, disappointment! Are you telling me that the mere existence of Troy
isn't total proof of the existence of the Greek gods? I am crushed.
I know :-(
Actually are they certain they have found Troy? I know the tourist
companies think they have, but AFAIK it is far from cut and dried
that the tourist destination known as 'Troy' is actually it.
That I had not heard. Of course, the person who wrote the history book I
used in high school had been a near contemporary of Schliemann.
Well I could be wrong it is just a vague recollection from a TV
ducumentary.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
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