J.W. wrote:
maf 1029 <guesswho@yahoo.nopsamnet> wrote in
news:ufq3e118kh59lfqd2j90arldvljn0c4kll@4ax.com:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:24:04 GMT, "J.W." <J.W.@hw61.com> wrote:
Bernard Hubbard <bernardh1938@bigpond.com> wrote in
news:7b71e1td73qts3cm3bdn6inpda9f6pb9e6@4ax.com:
all of your unbelief can not change the fact that Jesus still loves
you.
Does that include or exclude gays?
That includes gays.
I'm sure you've heard of the passage out of 1 Corinthians 6:9 that
says:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom
of God> Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate" [Gr. malakoi = soft men], "nor
homosexuals" [Gr. arsenokoitai = men who "bed" (lay) other men],
That is a lie. "Arsenokoitai" literally means "bed-lying man"
(singular) and in context most likely refers to a gigolo who was paid
to sleep with women. The term, in no way whatsoever, implies or states
homogenital contact or homosexuality.
Even a summary review of the meaning of the words refutes your
suggestion
that "arsenokoitai" means a bed-lying man.
The word "aresenokoitai" is the combination of the words "arsen" (male)
[and NOT "man"] and "koitis" (pl. = koitai) = marriage bed or "bed"
used as
a colloquialism for sexual relations. The word "Man" isn't even one
of the
words in the compound expression. The word "male" is used instead
(which,
to Jews, is a subset of Man, as is woman. And you have to remember that
Paul was a Jew.). So, a literal translation of "arsenokoitai" would be
"male-bedders" or a men who "bed" other males with the connotation of
having sexual relations.
You got this out of "male-bedders"?
This interpretation agrees completely with Romans
1:27, where Paul unmistakably condemns same-sex intercourse.
And you must further investigate what Paul is alluding to in Romans 1.
Paul saw those that had mass orgies in temples and saw "holding of
slaves as sex objects," "sex with young boys," etc as characteristic of
a disbelieving Hellenstic world.
Homosexuality is, therefore, connected with Paganism, which is
hypocritically condemned throughout the Bible, since Paganism was a
world-religion before Christianity.
As evidence:
2 Kings 23:5
He did away with the pagan priests appointed by the kings of Judah to
burn incense on the high places of the towns of Judah and on those
around Jerusalem—those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and moon,
to the constellations and to all the starry hosts.
Isaiah 2:6
You have abandoned your people, the house of Jacob. They are full of
superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the
Philistines and clasp hands with pagans.
Isaiah 57:8
Behind your doors and your doorposts you have put your pagan symbols.
Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it
wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love, and you looked on
their nakedness.
Lamentations 1:10
The enemy laid hands on all her treasures; she saw pagan nations enter
her sanctuary— those you had forbidden to enter your assembly.
Amos 7:17
"Therefore this is what the LORD says: " 'Your wife will become a
prostitute in the city, and your sons and daughters will fall by the
sword. Your land will be measured and divided up, and you yourself will
die in a pagan country. And Israel will certainly go into exile, away
from their native land.' "
And so forth.
The words that make up the word "arsenokoitai" also happen to occur
in the
Septuagint (Greek) version of Leviticus 18:22 - which prohibits a man
from
laying with another man for sexual purposes on a bed as one would with a
woman.
Since a man would have sex with a woman for reproductive purposes and, a
male conducting sexual intercourse on a man as he would a woman (for
repoductive purposes) just doesn't work.
Moses knew this. Why don't you?
Paul, the author of the First Letter to the Corinthians, was familiar
with
the Septuagint and preferred it. His quotes from the Old Testament
that
are distinctly from the Septuagint far outnumber his quotes
distinctly from
the Hebrew Text of the Old Testament. He quoted the Septuagint 14
times,
as opposed to only 4 quotes from the Hebrew text. On 19 occasions he
quoted the Old Testament in a manner that agreed with both the Hebrew
Text
and the Septuagint. The balance of his quotes from the Old Testament
were
citations that didn't exactly agree with either the Hebrew Text or the
Septuagint. (See E.E. Ellis, "Paul's Use of the Old Testament"
(Edinburgh:
Oliver & Boyd, 1957), pp. 150-52.)
Given Paul's familiarity with the Septuagint version of the Old
Testament,
the use of the words from Leviticus 18:22 used to condemn same-sex
intercourse,
....as being that which cannot ever produce offspring...
and his unmistakable stance against same sex intercourse as
found elsewhere in the Bible, the conclusion is almost irresistable
that he
ment "arsenokoitai" to describe men who slept with other men in a sexual
manner.
....since it did not produce a baby...
You have suggested nothing - aside from a great deal of wishful
thinking - in opposition to this analysis.
No, that'd be you.
What's more, the behavior of a "gigolo" - i.e. one who sleeps with women
for pay or otherwise - would be redundant, thereby making the term
useless
in the passage of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. The behavior of a "gigolo" is
described in the terms "pornoi" (Gk. masc. pl. of pornos = fornicator)
and/or "moixoi" (Gk. masc. pl. of moixos = adulterer) - already found
in 1
Corinthians 6:9-10. So, unless one has a rational basis to believe that
Paul was repeating himself, the suggestion that it refers to a "gigolo"
simply doesn't fly.
Unless the gigolo was being paid to have sex with another man...
nor thieves, nor
drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of
God." (My comments in brackets.)
Your comments refer to your personal, subjective prejudices and not
any sort of contextual translation.
Also, you lied about the content of the passage.
I have disproved your contention to this effect. See above.
Only in your own small world.
1 Cor 6: 9-10
6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of
God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor prostitutes, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor
covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit
the kingdom of God. 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed,
but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord
Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
The translation of "arsenokoitai" as a prostitute isn't even close. The
Greek word for a prostitute was (and is): porni (fem. sing - pr.
PORnee).
Considering that Paul used the word "porni" for prostitute in the same
chapter (Cf. 1 Corinthians 6:15-16), it is highly unlikely that he would
have used a different word like "arsenokoitai" to mean the same thing.
Please don't shove a bad English translation in my face as proof that
I was
mistaken, much less that I am a liar. I am telling the truth, and
you have
a bad translation. I am sorry that you are not happy with the truth.
The truth has never even entered this thread from your end.
There is no mention of homosexuals, homosexuality, or homogenital sex
in this passage.
I agree. I even said so. What I said, and what you deleted, is:
"Regardless of the terminology in some translations, the text does
refer to
men who PRACTICE same sex intercourse...."
The meaning of the word "homosexual" has come to mean one who has a SSA,
whether sexually active or celibate. Jewish Christians like Paul had no
conception of such a thing. Paul knew about same-sex intercourse -
as it
was practiced in a number of ambient cultures, and even by those who
also
practiced heterosexuality. He also knew the Old Testament condemned
it in
very stong terms. That's why he used "arsenokoitai" - a term that
described a "practice" rather than an "orientation."
Right. The "practice" did not produce babies. Frivolous sex acts
(those that do not produce babies) were prohibited.
Your lying does not promote your cause. In fact, it makes you look
desperate.
I'm not lying. What I have written is true. Your wishful thinking
doesn't
change the facts.
You really have no clue about your religion, do you?
And, with such an egregious "error" as the basis of your "argument,"
there is no rational reason to believe that the rest of your
"arguments" are accurate.
You had better deal with the rest of the argument. Your so-called
refutation fell flat on its face before it got out of the blocks.
You're not even in the same country as the truth.
Oh, and there seems to be something odd with your set up. When I went
to respond to this, I got a dialog box saying:
"The author of this message has requested that responses be sent only to
the author. If you also want to reply to the newsgroup, add a new row
in the addressing area, choose Newsgroup from the recipients list, and
enter the name of the newsgroup."
Can you check your settings? Thanks, dearie.
--
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* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
.
