Re: From the egg on Glenn's face



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "david ford"
Date: 04 Dec 2006 09:25:30 PM
Object: Re: From the egg on Glenn's face
John Wilkins wrote:
[snip]

Gene duplication (paralogy) is a
major source of novel functions. And there's no limit on that.

How do you account for the origination of ORFans?
2006
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/6/63
The origin of microbial ORFans, ORFs having no
detectable homology to other ORFs in the
databases, is one of the unexplained puzzles of the
post-genomic era.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
How do you account for the origination of new genes?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1164396926.582303.88630%40j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
.

User: "sharon"

Title: Re: From the egg on Glenn's face 04 Dec 2006 10:22:27 PM
david ford wrote:

John Wilkins wrote:

[snip]

Gene duplication (paralogy) is a
major source of novel functions. And there's no limit on that.


How do you account for the origination of ORFans?

This appears to explain well enough. Unless you actually have some
viable explanation, which I doubt:
Bacterial Genomes as New Gene Homes: The Genealogy of ORFans in E. coli
Vincent Daubin1 and Howard Ochman
Department of Biochemistry & Molecular Biophysics, University of
Arizona
Differences in gene repertoire among bacterial genomes are usually
ascribed to gene loss or to lateral gene transfer from unrelated
cellular organisms. However, most bacteria contain large numbers of
ORFans, that is, annotated genes that are restricted to a particular
genome and that possess no known homologs. The uniqueness of ORFans
within a genome has precluded the use of a comparative approach to
examine their function and evolution. However, by identifying sequences
unique to monophyletic groups at increasing phylogenetic depths, we can
make direct comparisons of the characteristics of ORFans of different
ages in the Escherichia coli genome, and establish their functional
status and evolutionary rates. Relative to the genes ancestral to
-Proteobacteria and to those genes distributed sporadically in other
prokaryotic species, ORFans in the E. coli lineage are short, A+T rich,
and evolve quickly. Moreover, most encode functional proteins. Based on
these features, ORFans are not attributable to errors in gene
annotation, limitations of current databases, or to failure of methods
for detecting homology. Rather, ORFans in the genomes of free-living
microorganisms apparently derive from bacteriophage and occasionally
become established by assuming roles in key cellular functions.
[...]
The existence of ORFans in virtually every genome has been termed a
"mystery" (Dujon 1996), and numerous explanations have been offered to
account for their occurrence and for the inability to classify these
genes into existing protein families (Fischer and Eisenberg 1999). The
most common explanation is that ORFans represent very rapidly evolving
genes, or possibly pseudogenes, undergoing rates of substitution and
rearrangements that obscure their similarity to known proteins
(Domazet-Loso and Tautz 2003). Alternatively, these genes could be
produced de novo from noncoding sequences, which are more highly
diverged between taxa. Furthermore, they could represent genes
transferred from organisms that have no representatives in the
databases such that no significant similarity can be detected. Then
again, ORFans might not be real genes, but simply artifacts resulting
from the algorithms used to recognize coding sequences in genomes. It
is possible that the factors responsible for the presence of ORFans
will differ among taxomonic groups. For example, in eukaryotes, the
sparse sampling of complete genome sequences may account for a large
proportion of ORFans, whereas in many bacterial groups, this
explanation is less likely because of the large numbers of genome
sequences already available.
Previous analyses of the species or strain-specific genes in bacteria
showed that such sequences tend to have lower G+C contents than genes
with a wider distribution among species. Charlebois et al. (2003),
noting that intergenic regions are often A+T rich in bacterial genomes,
interpreted the biased base composition of species-specific ORFans as
indicating that they might be either annotation artifacts or
fast-evolving genes. In contrast, Daubin et al. (2003) viewed the
existence of unique ORFans in very closely related genomes as evidence
that these sequences arose by lateral gene transfer.
http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/14/6/1036


2006
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/6/63
The origin of microbial ORFans, ORFs having no
detectable homology to other ORFs in the
databases, is one of the unexplained puzzles of the
post-genomic era.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
How do you account for the origination of new genes?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1164396926.582303.88630%40j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

.
User: "david ford"

Title: do ORFans fit into a nested hierarchy? 05 Dec 2006 10:06:58 AM
sharon wrote in "Re: From the egg on Glenn's face":

david ford wrote:

John Wilkins wrote:

[snip]

Gene duplication (paralogy) is a
major source of novel functions. And there's no limit on that.


How do you account for the origination of ORFans?


This appears to explain well enough. Unless you actually have some
viable explanation, which I doubt:

Bacterial Genomes as New Gene Homes: The Genealogy of ORFans in E. coli

Vincent Daubin1 and Howard Ochman
Department of Biochemistry & Molecular Biophysics, University of
Arizona

Differences in gene repertoire among bacterial genomes are usually
ascribed to gene loss or to lateral gene transfer from unrelated
cellular organisms. However, most bacteria contain large numbers of
ORFans, that is, annotated genes that are restricted to a particular
genome and that possess no known homologs.

"most bacteria contain large numbers of ORFans, that is, annotated
genes that are restricted to a particular genome and that possess no
known homologs"
What are "annotated genes"?

The uniqueness of ORFans
within a genome has precluded the use of a comparative approach to
examine their function and evolution. However, by identifying sequences
unique to monophyletic groups at increasing phylogenetic depths, we can
make direct comparisons of the characteristics of ORFans of different
ages in the Escherichia coli genome, and establish their functional
status and evolutionary rates. Relative to the genes ancestral to
-Proteobacteria and to those genes distributed sporadically in other
prokaryotic species, ORFans in the E. coli lineage are short, A+T rich,
and evolve quickly. Moreover, most encode functional proteins.

"ORFans in the E. coli lineage... evolve quickly. Moreover, most
encode functional proteins."
Is it possible for genes to "evolve quickly" and simultaneously "encode
functional proteins"?

Based on
these features, ORFans are not attributable to errors in gene
annotation, limitations of current databases, or to failure of methods
for detecting homology. Rather, ORFans in the genomes of free-living
microorganisms apparently derive from bacteriophage and occasionally
become established by assuming roles in key cellular functions.

"ORFans in the genomes of free-living microorganisms apparently derive
from bacteriophage and"
Is there a word(s) missing after "bacteriophage"?
How does a "bacteriophage" help account for the origination of ORFans?

[...]
The existence of ORFans in virtually every genome has been termed a
"mystery" (Dujon 1996), and numerous explanations have been offered to
account for their occurrence and for the inability to classify these
genes into existing protein families (Fischer and Eisenberg 1999).

"the inability to classify these [ORFans] genes into existing protein
families"
Do ORFans fit into a nested hierarchy?

The most common explanation is that ORFans represent very rapidly evolving
genes, or possibly pseudogenes, undergoing rates of substitution and
rearrangements that obscure their similarity to known proteins
(Domazet-Loso and Tautz 2003).

"The most common explanation is that ORFans represent very rapidly
evolving genes... undergoing rates of substitution and rearrangements
that obscure their similarity to known proteins"
Does anyone here think that ORFans are currently "rapidly evolving
genes... undergoing [rapid] rates of substitution and rearrangements"?
What are "pseudogenes"?

Alternatively, these genes could be
produced de novo from noncoding sequences, which are more highly
diverged between taxa.

Are "noncoding sequences" completely useless?

Furthermore, they could represent genes
transferred from organisms that have no representatives in the
databases such that no significant similarity can be detected. Then
again, ORFans might not be real genes, but simply artifacts resulting
from the algorithms used to recognize coding sequences in genomes.

"ORFans might not be real genes, but simply artifacts resulting from
the algorithms used to recognize coding sequences in genomes"
Does anyone here think that ORFans aren't "real genes"?
What are "algorithms"?

It is possible that the factors responsible for the presence of ORFans
will differ among taxomonic groups. For example, in eukaryotes, the
sparse sampling of complete genome sequences may account for a large
proportion of ORFans, whereas in many bacterial groups, this
explanation is less likely because of the large numbers of genome
sequences already available.

Previous analyses of the species or strain-specific genes in bacteria
showed that such sequences tend to have lower G+C contents than genes
with a wider distribution among species. Charlebois et al. (2003),
noting that intergenic regions are often A+T rich in bacterial genomes,
interpreted the biased base composition of species-specific ORFans as
indicating that they might be either annotation artifacts or
fast-evolving genes.

"they might be either annotation artifacts or fast-evolving genes"
What are "annotation artifacts"?

In contrast, Daubin et al. (2003) viewed the
existence of unique ORFans in very closely related genomes as evidence
that these sequences arose by lateral gene transfer.
http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/14/6/1036

"they could represent genes transferred from organisms that have no
representatives in the databases such that no significant similarity
can be detected"
"lateral gene transfer"
Suppose there's "lateral gene transfer"; how did the genes transferred
originate?
[2006 Glass, et al.]"we identify 382 of the 482 M. genitalium
protein-coding genes as essential"
How do you account for the origination of those 382 essential genes?
[2006 Glass, et al.]"Genes encoding proteins of unknown function
constitute 28% of the essential protein-coding genes set."
Biologists, what are the functions of those genes?
Glass, John I., et al. 10 January 2006. "Essential genes of a minimal
bacterium" _Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA_ 103:
425-430. The abstract, from
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/2/425
Mycoplasma genitalium has the smallest genome of
any organism that can be grown in pure culture. It
has a minimal metabolism and little genomic
redundancy. Consequently, its genome is expected
to be a close approximation to the minimal set of
genes needed to sustain bacterial life. Using global
transposon mutagenesis, we isolated and
characterized gene disruption mutants for 100
different nonessential protein-coding genes. None
of the 43 RNA-coding genes were disrupted.
Herein, we identify 382 of the 482 M. genitalium
protein-coding genes as essential, plus five sets of
disrupted genes that encode proteins with
potentially redundant essential functions, such as
phosphate transport. Genes encoding proteins of
unknown function constitute 28% of the essential
protein-coding genes set. Disruption of some genes
accelerated M. genitalium growth.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
How does atheism account for the origination of the "about 100 genes of
unknown function" referred to below?
Hutchison III, Clyde A., et al. 1999. "Global Transposon Mutagenesis
and a Minimal Mycoplasma Genome" _Science_ 286: 2165-2169. The
abstract, from
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/286/5447/2165?ijkey=4ffdcc413fc0ef90524c454ef65bc5291ed451e8&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
Mycoplasma genitalium with 517 genes has the
smallest gene complement of any independently
replicating cell so far identified. Global transposon
mutagenesis was used to identify nonessential
genes in an effort to learn whether the naturally
occurring gene complement is a true minimal
genome under laboratory growth conditions. The
positions of 2209 transposon insertions in the
completely sequenced genomes of M. genitalium
and its close relative M. pneumoniae were
determined by sequencing across the junction of the
transposon and the genomic DNA. These junctions
defined 1354 distinct sites of insertion that were not
lethal. The analysis suggests that 265 to 350 of the
480 protein-coding genes of M. genitalium are
essential under laboratory growth conditions,
including about 100 genes of unknown function.
1985 Cairns-Smith: "Present-day organisms are manifestly pieces of
'high technology', and what is more seem to be necessarily so."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1123558517.582123.223890%40o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com
1985 A.G. Cairns-Smith; How did recorded-in-DNA/ genetic information
originate?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-32gv43F3jsrelU1%40individual.net
How does a seeingwatchmakingist account for the origin of
the recorded-in-DNA/ genetic information within:
a human? a bacterium? the first biological lifeform?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-348nj6F47evohU1%40individual.net

2006
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/6/63
The origin of microbial ORFans, ORFs having no
detectable homology to other ORFs in the
databases, is one of the unexplained puzzles of the
post-genomic era.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
How do you account for the origination of new genes?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1164396926.582303.88630%40j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

.
User: "sharon"

Title: Re: do ORFans fit into a nested hierarchy? 05 Dec 2006 01:18:02 PM
david ford wrote:

sharon wrote in "Re: From the egg on Glenn's face":

david ford wrote:

John Wilkins wrote:

[snip]

<snipping stuff you want to know>
"Ask and ye shall receive".
"Knock and the door shall be opened".
Ask the designer to reveal the answers to you so the rest of us can
know.
I'll be waiting.
.
User: "david ford"

Title: Re: do ORFans fit into a nested hierarchy? 06 Dec 2006 07:03:45 PM
sharon wrote:

david ford wrote:

sharon wrote in "Re: From the egg on Glenn's face":

david ford wrote:

John Wilkins wrote:

[snip]


<snipping stuff you want to know>

"Ask and ye shall receive".
"Knock and the door shall be opened".

Ask the designer to reveal the answers to you so the rest of us can
know.

I'll be waiting.

It would be nice if the red Chinese stealing and reverse-engineering
U.S. military technology would merely pose questions to the U.S.
designers of that technology, and then wait for answers.
Instead, the Chinese are forging ahead, _seeking_ to understand what
they've stolen, and figuring out how to duplicate it.
Luke 11 (New International Version)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2011;&version=31;
9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you;
seek and you will find; knock and the door will be
opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks
finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be
opened.
.




User: "sharon"

Title: Re: From the egg on Glenn's face 04 Dec 2006 10:14:59 PM
david ford wrote:

John Wilkins wrote:

[snip]

Gene duplication (paralogy) is a
major source of novel functions. And there's no limit on that.


How do you account for the origination of ORFans?

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_frm/thread/f4abdc01edc7f6d7/93ef19a39010a794?tvc=1&hl=en#93ef19a39010a794


2006
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/6/63
The origin of microbial ORFans, ORFs having no
detectable homology to other ORFs in the
databases, is one of the unexplained puzzles of the
post-genomic era.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
How do you account for the origination of new genes?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1164396926.582303.88630%40j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

.
User: "david ford"

Title: Re: From the egg on Glenn's face 05 Dec 2006 09:04:12 AM
sharon wrote:

david ford wrote:

John Wilkins wrote:

[snip]

Gene duplication (paralogy) is a
major source of novel functions. And there's no limit on that.


How do you account for the origination of ORFans?


http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_frm/thread/f4abdc01edc7f6d7/93ef19a39010a794?tvc=1&hl=en#93ef19a39010a794

I read that a while ago. If you would, please present in this thread
text discussing how you, Sharon, account for the origination of ORFans.
Also, Sharon, in your view, how did recorded-in-DNA/ genetic
information originate?
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
1985 A.G. Cairns-Smith; How did recorded-in-DNA/ genetic information
originate?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-32gv43F3jsrelU1%40individual.net

2006
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/6/63
The origin of microbial ORFans, ORFs having no
detectable homology to other ORFs in the
databases, is one of the unexplained puzzles of the
post-genomic era.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
How do you account for the origination of new genes?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1164396926.582303.88630%40j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

.
User: "sharon"

Title: Re: From the egg on Glenn's face 05 Dec 2006 01:56:45 PM
david ford wrote:

sharon wrote:

david ford wrote:

John Wilkins wrote:

[snip]

Gene duplication (paralogy) is a
major source of novel functions. And there's no limit on that.


How do you account for the origination of ORFans?


http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_frm/thread/f4abdc01edc7f6d7/93ef19a39010a794?tvc=1&hl=en#93ef19a39010a794


I read that a while ago. If you would, please present in this thread
text discussing how you, Sharon, account for the origination of ORFans.

They ignored you. Mark Bilbo said you'd found a new toy. That was the
end of any discussion.
How are any of these guys going to tell you anything definitive when
even the best scientists don't know for certain yet. They certainly
know more about it than you do, at least the scientists have working
theories to assist in finding an explanation. They do have a track
record to finding many of their answers after investigation. I think
you're putting the carriage before the horse, because a scientist calls
it a mystery for now, in five years, it may be explained and common
knowledge to geneticists. Then, nobody will see you writing anything
about ORFans as evidence of design/creation.
Anyway, you're obviously trying to prove a designer/creationist is what
I gather. For your information, I've often cited from the example of
the Adones, in the movie Lorenzo's Oil. They wanted a therapy for their
son Lorenzo, medical science could not explain the biochemical pathway
of ALD at the time. All boys diagnosed with ALD died within two years.
The Adones had faith, but instead of a "miracle healing," Adone was
lead through 3-4 years of intense medical study, and found a
combination of oils which spared his son from death... but Lorenzo was
left without speech, blind, and little quality of life. Even today, ALD
persists to be a destructive genetic illness, in other words, the
treatment that was perhaps "revealed" ... still is not complete (I have
read this on the web). But for the progress that was made, Adone
comments in this sad story, "Maybe all this was for somebody else's
kid."
Yes, I do think a scientific-minded deity exists, out there, somewhere,
but its a god of at least, "tough love" and even worse, potentially
evil. So stop trying to force belief and "worship" on others, as if
you're its intermediator.

Also, Sharon, in your view, how did recorded-in-DNA/ genetic
information originate?

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
1985 A.G. Cairns-Smith; How did recorded-in-DNA/ genetic information
originate?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-32gv43F3jsrelU1%40individual.net

2006
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/6/63
The origin of microbial ORFans, ORFs having no
detectable homology to other ORFs in the
databases, is one of the unexplained puzzles of the
post-genomic era.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
How do you account for the origination of new genes?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1164396926.582303.88630%40j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

.
User: "sharon"

Title: Re: From the egg on Glenn's face 05 Dec 2006 02:09:45 PM
sharon wrote:

david ford wrote:

How do you account for the origination of ORFans?


http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_frm/thread/f4abdc01edc7f6d7/93ef19a39010a794?tvc=1&hl=en#93ef19a39010a794

I don't care to know, because I don't work in that field. You do
though. You are trying to prove your religion with genes. *You* go to
that designer and ask it for explanation of the origin of ORFans. If
and when it decides to "reveal" the understanding to your weak mind, it
will break your balls with years of medical study, and mortgages but at
least, you'll be able to post on the group in a few years, "this
explains ORFans". And your consolation prize may be some skepticism, or
a pat on the back. Adone got a honorary medical degree or two out of
his.

They ignored you. Mark Bilbo said you'd found a new toy. That was the
end of any discussion.

.
User: "david ford"

Title: Re: From the egg on Glenn's face 06 Dec 2006 07:20:15 PM
sharon wrote:

sharon wrote:

david ford wrote:


How do you account for the origination of ORFans?


http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_frm/thread/f4abdc01edc7f6d7/93ef19a39010a794?tvc=1&hl=en#93ef19a39010a794


I don't care to know, because I don't work in that field.

Do you agree with this generalization?:
I, Sharon, don't care to know about topic X, because I don't work in a
field dealing with topic X.

You do
though. You are trying to prove your religion with genes.

Is your religion proven?

*You* go to
that designer and ask it for explanation of the origin of ORFans.

What considerations could lead someone to conclude that there was only
one "designer," and not multiple designer_s_, of known DNA?

If and when it decides to "reveal" the understanding to your weak mind, it
will break your balls with years of medical study, and mortgages but at
least, you'll be able to post on the group in a few years, "this
explains ORFans". And your consolation prize may be some skepticism, or
a pat on the back. Adone got a honorary medical degree or two out of
his.

Did Newton have a "weak mind"?
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Newton was an IDiot regarding biology.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-3877igF5kk9siU2%40individual.net

They ignored you. Mark Bilbo said you'd found a new toy. That was the
end of any discussion.

.






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