| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"cactus" |
| Date: |
04 Feb 2008 12:56:52 AM |
| Object: |
Re: G-d (Was The Attainment of Moses) |
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:18 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:55 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
RaaN wrote:
Forgive the top post for this brief question.
Why do you and other people spell it G_d?
"God" is not His name after all but His title.
Just curious.
--
RaaN
Excellent question! It has been well answered by the others. I can only
add my gloss to their wisdom. I subscribe to what they said, but I also
find it useful to distinguish among different usages of the word. I'll
say G-d under some circumstances, God in others, and even god on
occasion. Each has a different meaning in context.
Spelling the word as "G-d" was a tradition arising from the
superstitious and occult branch of Judaism called "Kabbalah." The
Kabbalists believed/believe that words and numbers are magical tokens
that manipulate the real word. They believe that writing the name of
God may have horrible consequences for the universe if the written
name of God name suffers an accident, like burning or flood or
defamation or anything insulting.
The Talmud includes some of this hokus-pokus. The Talmud Sages assert
that entire universe was created by manipulating the letters in the
holy name.
TCross
Terry/Carol, once again you reveal your ignorance. It is common in
Orthodox Judaism as well.
Kabbalist superstition is common in Orthodox Judaism. Those primitive
superstitions abound in the Talmud, and Talmud is the Bible of
Orthodox Judaism.
Torah, not Talmud, you ignoramus.
And in case you were not aware of it, there
is a fair amount of Kabbalah in the liturgy.
No doubt.
The explanation as to why has been provided in this NG by people who
understand it in a clear way. Your explanation is baseless and
inaccurate. Go bask in the light of their explanations. You might
actually learn something.
It is explained in the Talmud. They want to prevent God's name from
suffering outrage on a document that suffers indignity. Some rabbis
assert that, since observant Jews must burn Christian scriptures,
God's name must be cut out of the parchment before burning it.
Citation?
The word Minim is explained in a footnote:
Minim. The term denotes various kinds of Jewish sectarians, such as
the Sadducces, Samaritans, Judeo-Christians, etc., according to the
date of the passage in which the term is used. The reference here is
probably to the last-named. V. J.E., art. Min; Bacher in REJ. XXXVIII,
38. Rashi translates: Hebrew Bibles written by men in the service of
idolatry
After the comments on Christian Scriptures, the Talmud goes on to
comment on Christians generally. Jews may not save Christians from
fire, from drowning, or from a collapsed building:
Come and hear: The blank spaces and the Books of the Minim may
not be saved from a fire, but they must be burnt in their place, they
and the Divine Names occurring in them. Now surely it means the blank
portions of a Scroll of the Law? No: the blank spaces in the Books of
Minim. Seeing that we may not save the Books of Minim themselves, need
their blank spaces be stated? -- This is its meaning: And the Books of
Minim are like blank spaces.
It's your website. There is no reason to believe it without independent
corroboration. You are an antisemitic bigot and liar. Provide a real
citation, one that can be verified independently.
It was stated in the text: The blank spaces and the Books of the
Minim, we may not save them from a fire. R. Jose said: On weekdays one
must cut out the Divine Names which they contain, hide them, and burn
the rest.
Citation?
R. Tarfon said: May I bury my son if I would not burn them
together with their Divine Names if they came to my hand. For even if
one pursued me to slay me, or a snake pursued me to bite me, I would
enter a heathen Temple [for refuge], but not the houses of these
[people], for the latter know (of God] yet deny [Him], whereas the
former are ignorant and deny [Him], and of them the Writ saith, and
behind the doors and the posts hast thou set up thy memorial. R.
Ishmael said: [One can reason] a minori: If in order to make peace
between man and wife the Torah decreed, Let my Name, written in
sanctity, be blotted out in water, these, who stir up jealousy,
enmity, and wrath between Israel and their Father in Heaven, how much
more so; and of them David said, Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate
thee? And am I not grieved with those that rise up against thee? I
hate then with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. And just as
we may not rescue them from a fire, so may we not rescue them from a
collapse [of debris] or from water or from anything that may destroy
them. Shabboth 115b
You may read the Talmud text for yourself at http://come-and-hear.com/shabbath/shabbath_115.html
That's your site. There is no reason to believe anything you post
without independent corroboration from trusted sites.
TCross
.
|
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| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: G-d (Was The Attainment of Moses) |
04 Feb 2008 03:31:20 PM |
|
|
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:56 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:18 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:55 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
RaaN wrote:
Forgive the top post for this brief question.
Why do you and other people spell it G_d?
"God" is not His name after all but His title.
Just curious.
--
RaaN
Excellent question! It has been well answered by the others. I can only
add my gloss to their wisdom. I subscribe to what they said, but I also
find it useful to distinguish among different usages of the word. I'll
say G-d under some circumstances, God in others, and even god on
occasion. Each has a different meaning in context.
Spelling the word as "G-d" was a tradition arising from the
superstitious and occult branch of Judaism called "Kabbalah." The
Kabbalists believed/believe that words and numbers are magical tokens
that manipulate the real word. They believe that writing the name of
God may have horrible consequences for the universe if the written
name of God name suffers an accident, like burning or flood or
defamation or anything insulting.
The Talmud includes some of this hokus-pokus. The Talmud Sages assert
that entire universe was created by manipulating the letters in the
holy name.
TCross
Terry/Carol, once again you reveal your ignorance. It is common in
Orthodox Judaism as well.
Kabbalist superstition is common in Orthodox Judaism. Those primitive
superstitions abound in the Talmud, and Talmud is the Bible of
Orthodox Judaism.
Torah, not Talmud, you ignoramus.
I wrote Talmud, and that is what I meant. The laws of Kosher are not
in Torah, they are in Talmud.
You are as ignorant as you are bigoted. The rules of kashrut are set out
in Torah. Talmud is a commentary and expansion on it.
If not for Talmud, Jews would be almost
like Muslims.
That is as stupid as anything you've ever said. If not for Torah, Jews
would be like Hindus maybe. So what?
And in case you were not aware of it, there
is a fair amount of Kabbalah in the liturgy.
No doubt.
The explanation as to why has been provided in this NG by people who
understand it in a clear way. Your explanation is baseless and
inaccurate. Go bask in the light of their explanations. You might
actually learn something.
It is explained in the Talmud. They want to prevent God's name from
suffering outrage on a document that suffers indignity. Some rabbis
assert that, since observant Jews must burn Christian scriptures,
God's name must be cut out of the parchment before burning it.
Citation?
Below.
The word Minim is explained in a footnote:
Minim. The term denotes various kinds of Jewish sectarians, such as
the Sadducces, Samaritans, Judeo-Christians, etc., according to the
date of the passage in which the term is used. The reference here is
probably to the last-named. V. J.E., art. Min; Bacher in REJ. XXXVIII,
38. Rashi translates: Hebrew Bibles written by men in the service of
idolatry
After the comments on Christian Scriptures, the Talmud goes on to
comment on Christians generally. Jews may not save Christians from
fire, from drowning, or from a collapsed building:
Come and hear: The blank spaces and the Books of the Minim may
not be saved from a fire, but they must be burnt in their place, they
and the Divine Names occurring in them. Now surely it means the blank
portions of a Scroll of the Law? No: the blank spaces in the Books of
Minim. Seeing that we may not save the Books of Minim themselves, need
their blank spaces be stated? -- This is its meaning: And the Books of
Minim are like blank spaces.
It's your website.
No it's not.
Sure it is Carol Valentine is one of your sock puppets. Terry has a nym!
There is no reason to believe it without independent
corroboration.
So look it up, or ask your rabbi for Shabboth 115b. - if he lets you
read Talmud.
You are an antisemitic bigot and liar. Provide a real
citation, one that can be verified independently.
Ask your rabbi (or maybe he is an antisemite, too?)
It was stated in the text: The blank spaces and the Books of the
Minim, we may not save them from a fire. R. Jose said: On weekdays one
must cut out the Divine Names which they contain, hide them, and burn
the rest.
Citation?
Shabboth 115b.
R. Tarfon said: May I bury my son if I would not burn them
together with their Divine Names if they came to my hand. For even if
one pursued me to slay me, or a snake pursued me to bite me, I would
enter a heathen Temple [for refuge], but not the houses of these
[people], for the latter know (of God] yet deny [Him], whereas the
former are ignorant and deny [Him], and of them the Writ saith, and
behind the doors and the posts hast thou set up thy memorial. R.
Ishmael said: [One can reason] a minori: If in order to make peace
between man and wife the Torah decreed, Let my Name, written in
sanctity, be blotted out in water, these, who stir up jealousy,
enmity, and wrath between Israel and their Father in Heaven, how much
more so; and of them David said, Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate
thee? And am I not grieved with those that rise up against thee? I
hate then with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. And just as
we may not rescue them from a fire, so may we not rescue them from a
collapse [of debris] or from water or from anything that may destroy
them. Shabboth 115b
You may read the Talmud text for yourself athttp://come-and-hear.com/shabbath/shabbath_115.html
That's your site.
No, it is not.
There is no reason to believe anything you post
without independent corroboration from trusted sites.
So ask your rabbi for Shabboth 115b.
TCross
.
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| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: G-d (Was The Attainment of Moses) |
05 Feb 2008 02:36:35 PM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 4, 1:31 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:56 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:18 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:55 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
RaaN wrote:
Forgive the top post for this brief question.
Why do you and other people spell it G_d?
"God" is not His name after all but His title.
Just curious.
--
RaaN
Excellent question! It has been well answered by the others. I can only
add my gloss to their wisdom. I subscribe to what they said, but I also
find it useful to distinguish among different usages of the word. I'll
say G-d under some circumstances, God in others, and even god on
occasion. Each has a different meaning in context.
Spelling the word as "G-d" was a tradition arising from the
superstitious and occult branch of Judaism called "Kabbalah." The
Kabbalists believed/believe that words and numbers are magical tokens
that manipulate the real word. They believe that writing the name of
God may have horrible consequences for the universe if the written
name of God name suffers an accident, like burning or flood or
defamation or anything insulting.
The Talmud includes some of this hokus-pokus. The Talmud Sages assert
that entire universe was created by manipulating the letters in the
holy name.
TCross
Terry/Carol, once again you reveal your ignorance. It is common in
Orthodox Judaism as well.
Kabbalist superstition is common in Orthodox Judaism. Those primitive
superstitions abound in the Talmud, and Talmud is the Bible of
Orthodox Judaism.
Torah, not Talmud, you ignoramus.
I wrote Talmud, and that is what I meant. The laws of Kosher are not
in Torah, they are in Talmud.
You are as ignorant as you are bigoted. The rules of kashrut are set out
in Torah. Talmud is a commentary and expansion on it.
Well, not really, unless you use a very expansive definition of
"expansion." In similar vein, you might also say the tons of paper
that comprise the US Income Tax code are an "expansion" of the
Sixteenth Amendment.
You figured it out! Maybe, just maybe, there might be a fraction of a
scintalla of hope for you, albeit probably in geologic time.
The Talmud itself comments on the foundations of the Talmud:
MISHNAH. [THE LAWS CONCERNING] THE DISSOLUTION OF VOWS HOVER IN THE
AIR AND HAVE NOUGHT TO REST ON. THE LAWS CONCERNING THE SABBATH,
FESTAL-OFFERINGS, ACTS OF TRESPASS ARE AS MOUNTAINS HANGING BY A HAIR,
FOR THEY HAVE SCANT SCRIPTURAL BASIS BUT MANY LAWS. [THE LAWS
CONCERNING] CIVIL CASES AND [TEMPLE] SERVICES, LEVITICAL CLEANNESS AND
UNCLEANNESS, AND THE FORBIDDEN RELATIONS HAVE WHAT TO REST ON, (9) AND
IT IS THEY THAT ARE THE ESSENTIALS OF THE TORAH. - Babylonian Talmud,
Hagigah 10a
And this comes from a source of dubious credibility and accuracy, quoted
by someone who uses forgeries as easily as truths, whose biases are
trumpeted all over Usenet.
Thus we come by the Talmud with more than FIVE MILLION WORDS of
commentary, racy jokes, weird tales, historical invention, boastings,
argument and hair splitting, magical divination from accidents of
text, perversions of Scripture (in the manner Jesus cites from the
"teachings of the elders"), superstition, and nonsense.
And some very close, intense legal analysis, ethical standards, morality
and history.
But you ignore all of that because of your biases.
TCross
.
|
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| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: G-d (Was The Attainment of Moses) |
05 Feb 2008 11:13:57 PM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 5, 12:36 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 4, 1:31 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:56 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:18 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:55 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
RaaN wrote:
Forgive the top post for this brief question.
Why do you and other people spell it G_d?
"God" is not His name after all but His title.
Just curious.
--
RaaN
Excellent question! It has been well answered by the others. I can only
add my gloss to their wisdom. I subscribe to what they said, but I also
find it useful to distinguish among different usages of the word. I'll
say G-d under some circumstances, God in others, and even god on
occasion. Each has a different meaning in context.
Spelling the word as "G-d" was a tradition arising from the
superstitious and occult branch of Judaism called "Kabbalah." The
Kabbalists believed/believe that words and numbers are magical tokens
that manipulate the real word. They believe that writing the name of
God may have horrible consequences for the universe if the written
name of God name suffers an accident, like burning or flood or
defamation or anything insulting.
The Talmud includes some of this hokus-pokus. The Talmud Sages assert
that entire universe was created by manipulating the letters in the
holy name.
TCross
Terry/Carol, once again you reveal your ignorance. It is common in
Orthodox Judaism as well.
Kabbalist superstition is common in Orthodox Judaism. Those primitive
superstitions abound in the Talmud, and Talmud is the Bible of
Orthodox Judaism.
Torah, not Talmud, you ignoramus.
I wrote Talmud, and that is what I meant. The laws of Kosher are not
in Torah, they are in Talmud.
You are as ignorant as you are bigoted. The rules of kashrut are set out
in Torah. Talmud is a commentary and expansion on it.
Well, not really, unless you use a very expansive definition of
"expansion." In similar vein, you might also say the tons of paper
that comprise the US Income Tax code are an "expansion" of the
Sixteenth Amendment.
You figured it out! Maybe, just maybe, there might be a fraction of a
scintalla of hope for you, albeit probably in geologic time.
The Talmud itself comments on the foundations of the Talmud:
MISHNAH. [THE LAWS CONCERNING] THE DISSOLUTION OF VOWS HOVER IN THE
AIR AND HAVE NOUGHT TO REST ON. THE LAWS CONCERNING THE SABBATH,
FESTAL-OFFERINGS, ACTS OF TRESPASS ARE AS MOUNTAINS HANGING BY A HAIR,
FOR THEY HAVE SCANT SCRIPTURAL BASIS BUT MANY LAWS. [THE LAWS
CONCERNING] CIVIL CASES AND [TEMPLE] SERVICES, LEVITICAL CLEANNESS AND
UNCLEANNESS, AND THE FORBIDDEN RELATIONS HAVE WHAT TO REST ON, (9) AND
IT IS THEY THAT ARE THE ESSENTIALS OF THE TORAH. - Babylonian Talmud,
Hagigah 10a
And this comes from a source of dubious credibility and accuracy, quoted
by someone who uses forgeries as easily as truths, whose biases are
trumpeted all over Usenet.
You have never caught me in a forgery, and if you could do so now, you
would. But you don not, and thereby might we know you CANnot. My
quote is true to the Talmud (Mishnah).
Thus we come by the Talmud with more than FIVE MILLION WORDS of
commentary, racy jokes, weird tales, historical invention, boastings,
argument and hair splitting, magical divination from accidents of
text, perversions of Scripture (in the manner Jesus cites from the
"teachings of the elders"), superstition, and nonsense.
And some very close, intense legal analysis, ethical standards, morality
and history.
Close -indeed. So close that Jesus called it "hairsplitting."
The Sabbath was intended to be a day of rest and rejoicing for all.
(Exodus 20:8-11) By Jesus' day, though, it had become a maze of
oppressive, man-made rules. Scholar Alfred Edersheim wrote that in the
lengthy Sabbath-law sections of the Talmud, "matters are seriously
discussed as of vital religious importance, which one could scarcely
imagine a sane intellect would seriously entertain." (The Life and
Times of Jesus the Messiah) The rabbis attached life-and-death
importance to frivolous, arbitrary rules that regulated virtually
every aspect of a Jew's life--often with cold-blooded disregard for
human feeling. One Sabbath rule decreed: "If a building fell down upon
a man and there is doubt whether he is there or not, or whether he is
alive or dead, or whether he is a gentile or an Israelite, they may
clear away the ruin from above him. If they find him alive they may
clear it away still more from above him; but if [he is] dead, they
leave him."--Tractate Yoma 8:7, The Mishnah, translated by Herbert
Danby. http://www.watchtower.org/e/19950301/article_02.htm
And whether Gentile or Jew was important, of course, because a Gentile
should not be rescued from a collapsed building.
Regarding the subject of saving a life, too, the Torah differentiates
between a Jew and a Gentile. We learn in chapter 8 of Tractate
Kippurim (Yoma) mishnah 45 (in the Vilna edition mishnah 47): "One
upon whom the ruins of a building collapsed and there is doubt whether
he is there or not, whether he is alive or dead, whether he is a Jew
or a Gentile, we clear off [the rubble]. If they found him alive, they
clear off [the rubble], if dead, they leave him there." The Talmud
explains on page 85a: "It is needless to say 'there is doubt whether
he is alive or dead' if he is a Jew, but even if we are uncertain
whether he is a Gentile or a Jew we clear off [the rubble]," and thus
wrote Maimonides in chapter 2 of The Laws of the Sabbath, halacha 21
(in the Vilna edition, halacha 20): "If there was a courtyard with
both Gentiles and Jews, even one Jew and a thousand Gentiles, and the
ruins of a building collapsed upon them, we clear off the rubble from
everyone for the sake of the Jew. If one of them moved to another
courtyard and it collapsed upon him, we clear [the rubble] off him,
for perhaps the one who moved [to the other courtyard] is the Jew and
the ones who remained are the Gentiles."
http://www.daatemet.org.il/articles/article.cfm?article_id=119&lang=en
But you ignore all of that because of your biases.
And I ignore the history, too? Like the history of Moses in heaven?
From Shabbath 88b (Soncino 1961 Edition, pages 421-425):
GEMARA. ... R. Joshua b. Levi also said: When Moses ascended on
high, the ministering angels spake before the Holy One, blessed be He,
'Sovereign of the Universe! What business has one born of woman
amongst us?' 'He has come to receive the Torah,' answered He to them.
Said they to Him, 'That secret treasure, which has been hidden by Thee
for nine hundred and seventy-four generations before the world was
created. Thou desirest to give to flesh and blood! What is man, that
thou art mindful of him, And the son of man, that thou visitest him? O
Lord our God, How excellent is thy name in all the earth! Who hast set
thy glory [the Torah] upon the Heavens!' 'Return them an answer,' bade
the Holy One, blessed be He, to Moses. 'Sovereign of the Universe'
replied he, 'I fear lest they consume me with the [fiery] breath of
their mouths.' 'Hold on to the Throne of Glory,' said He to him, 'and
return them an answer,' as it is said, He maketh him to hold on to the
face of his throne, And spreadeth [PaRSHeZ] his cloud over him,
whereon R. Nahman observed: This teaches that the Almighty [SHaddai]
spread [Pirash] the lustre [Ziw] of His Shechinah and cast it as a
protection over him. He [then] spake before Him: Sovereign of the
Universe! The Torah which Thou givest me, what is written therein? I
am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the Land of Egypt. Said
he to them [the angels], 'Did ye go down to Egypt; were ye enslaved to
Pharaoh: why then should the Torah be yours? Again, What is written
therein? Thou shalt have none other gods: do ye dwell among peoples
that engage in
Shabbath 89a
idol worship? Again what is written therein? Remember the Sabbath
day, to keep it holy: do ye then perform work, that ye need to rest?
Again what is written therein? Thou shalt not take [tissa] [the name ...
in vain]: is there any business [massa] dealings among you? Again what
is written therein, Honour thy father and thy mother; have ye fathers
and mothers? Again what is written therein? Thou shall not murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou Shall not steal; is there
jealousy among you; is the Evil Tempter among you? Straightway they
conceded [right] to the Holy One, blessed be He, for it is said, O
Lord, our Lord, How excellent is thy name, etc. whereas 'Who has set
thy glory upon the heavens' is not written. Immediately each one was
moved to love him [Moses] and transmitted something to him, for it is
said, Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast taken spoils [the Torah];
Thou hast received gifts on account of man: as a recompense for their
calling thee man [adam] thou didst receive gifts. The Angel of Death
too confided his secret to him, for it is said, and he put on the
incense, and made atonement for the people; and it is said, and he
stood between the dead and the living, etc. Had he not told it to him,
whence had he known it?
R. Joshua b. Levi also said: When Moses descended from before the
Holy One, blessed be He, Satan came and asked Him, 'Sovereign of the
Universe! Where is the Torah? 'I have given it to the earth.' answered
He to him. He went to the earth and said to her, 'Where is the Torah?'
'God understandeth the way thereof, etc.' she replied. He went to the
sea and it told him, 'It is not with me.' He went to the deep and it
said to him, 'It is not in me,' for it is said. The deep saith, It is
not in me: And the sea saith, It is not with me. Destruction and Death
say, We have heard a rumour thereof with our ears. He went back and
declared before Him, 'Sovereign of the Universe! I have searched
throughout all the earth but have not found it!' 'Go thee to the son
of Amram. answered He. [So] he went to Moses and asked him, 'Where is
the Torah which the Holy One, blessed be He, gave unto thee?' 'Who am
I then,' he retorted, 'that the Holy One, blessed be He, should give
me the Torah?' Said the Holy One, blessed be He, to Moses, 'Moses, art
thou a liar!' 'Sovereign of the Universe!' he replied, 'Thou hast a
stored-up treasure in which Thou takest delight every day: shall I
keep the benefit for myself?' 'Said the Holy One, blessed be He, to
Moses, 'Moses, since thou hast [humbly] disparaged thyself, it shall
be called by thy name, as it is said, Remember ye the law of Moses my
servant.
R. Joshua b. Levi also said: When Moses ascended on high, he found
the Holy One, blessed be He, tying crowns on the letters [of the
Torah]. Said He to him, 'Moses, is there no [greeting of] Peace in thy
town?' 'Shall a servant extend [a greeting of] Peace to his Master!'
replied he: 'Yet thou shouldst have assisted Me,' said He. Immediately
he cried out to Him, And now, I pray thee, let the power of the Lord
be great, according as thou hast spoken.
R. Joshua b. Levi also said: Why is it written; And when the
people, saw that Moses delayed [boshesh] [to come down from the
mount]? 'Read not boshesh' [delayed] but ba'u shesh [the sixth hour
had come]. When Moses ascended on high, he said to Israel, I will
return at the end of forty days, at the beginning of the sixth hour.
At the end of forty days Satan came and confounded the world. Said he
to them: 'Where is your teacher Moses?' 'He has ascended on high,'
they answered him. 'The sixth [hour] has come,' said he to them, but
they disregarded him. 'He is dead' -- but they disregarded him.
[Thereupon] he showed them a vision of his bier, and this is what they
said to Aaron, for this Moses, the man, etc.,
One of the Rabbis asked R. Kahana: Hast thou heard what the
mountain of Sinai [connotes]? The mountain whereon miracles [nissim]
were performed for Israel, he replied. Then it should be called Mount
Nisal? But [it means] the mountain whereon a happy augury [siman] took
place for Israel. Then it should be called, Mount Simanai? Said he to
him, Why dost thou not frequent [the academy of] R. Papa and R. Huna
the son of R. Joshua, who make a study of aggadah. For R. Hisda and
Rabbah the son of R. Huna both said, What is [the meaning of] Mount
Sinai? The mountain whereon there descended hostility [sin'ah] toward
idolaters. And thus R. Jose son of R. Hanina said: It has five names:
The Wilderness of Zin, [meaning] that Israel were given commandments
there; the Wilderness of Kadesh, where the Israelites were sanctified
[kadosh], the Wilderness of Kedemoth, because a priority [kedumah] was
conferred there; the Wilderness of Paran,
Shabbath 89b
because Israel was fruitful [paru] and multiplied there; and the
Wilderness of Sinai, because hostility toward idolaters descended
thereon. Whilst what was its [real] name? Its name was Horeb. Now they
disagree with R. Abbahu, For R. Abbahu said: its name was Mount Sinai,
and why was it called Mount Horeb? Because desolation [hurbah] to
idolaters descended thereon.
Heaven forbid I should ignore such scholarly work!
It's not scholarly, it's Talmudic, assuming that these quotes are valid.
But I don't expect you to understand the difference.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: G-d (Was The Attainment of Moses) |
06 Feb 2008 12:54:23 AM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 5, 9:13 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 5, 12:36 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 4, 1:31 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:56 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:18 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:55 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
RaaN wrote:
Forgive the top post for this brief question.
Why do you and other people spell it G_d?
"God" is not His name after all but His title.
Just curious.
--
RaaN
Excellent question! It has been well answered by the others. I can only
add my gloss to their wisdom. I subscribe to what they said, but I also
find it useful to distinguish among different usages of the word. I'll
say G-d under some circumstances, God in others, and even god on
occasion. Each has a different meaning in context.
Spelling the word as "G-d" was a tradition arising from the
superstitious and occult branch of Judaism called "Kabbalah." The
Kabbalists believed/believe that words and numbers are magical tokens
that manipulate the real word. They believe that writing the name of
God may have horrible consequences for the universe if the written
name of God name suffers an accident, like burning or flood or
defamation or anything insulting.
The Talmud includes some of this hokus-pokus. The Talmud Sages assert
that entire universe was created by manipulating the letters in the
holy name.
TCross
Terry/Carol, once again you reveal your ignorance. It is common in
Orthodox Judaism as well.
Kabbalist superstition is common in Orthodox Judaism. Those primitive
superstitions abound in the Talmud, and Talmud is the Bible of
Orthodox Judaism.
Torah, not Talmud, you ignoramus.
I wrote Talmud, and that is what I meant. The laws of Kosher are not
in Torah, they are in Talmud.
You are as ignorant as you are bigoted. The rules of kashrut are set out
in Torah. Talmud is a commentary and expansion on it.
Well, not really, unless you use a very expansive definition of
"expansion." In similar vein, you might also say the tons of paper
that comprise the US Income Tax code are an "expansion" of the
Sixteenth Amendment.
You figured it out! Maybe, just maybe, there might be a fraction of a
scintalla of hope for you, albeit probably in geologic time.
The Talmud itself comments on the foundations of the Talmud:
MISHNAH. [THE LAWS CONCERNING] THE DISSOLUTION OF VOWS HOVER IN THE
AIR AND HAVE NOUGHT TO REST ON. THE LAWS CONCERNING THE SABBATH,
FESTAL-OFFERINGS, ACTS OF TRESPASS ARE AS MOUNTAINS HANGING BY A HAIR,
FOR THEY HAVE SCANT SCRIPTURAL BASIS BUT MANY LAWS. [THE LAWS
CONCERNING] CIVIL CASES AND [TEMPLE] SERVICES, LEVITICAL CLEANNESS AND
UNCLEANNESS, AND THE FORBIDDEN RELATIONS HAVE WHAT TO REST ON, (9) AND
IT IS THEY THAT ARE THE ESSENTIALS OF THE TORAH. - Babylonian Talmud,
Hagigah 10a
And this comes from a source of dubious credibility and accuracy, quoted
by someone who uses forgeries as easily as truths, whose biases are
trumpeted all over Usenet.
You have never caught me in a forgery, and if you could do so now, you
would. But you don not, and thereby might we know you CANnot. My
quote is true to the Talmud (Mishnah).
Thus we come by the Talmud with more than FIVE MILLION WORDS of
commentary, racy jokes, weird tales, historical invention, boastings,
argument and hair splitting, magical divination from accidents of
text, perversions of Scripture (in the manner Jesus cites from the
"teachings of the elders"), superstition, and nonsense.
And some very close, intense legal analysis, ethical standards, morality
and history.
Close -indeed. So close that Jesus called it "hairsplitting."
The Sabbath was intended to be a day of rest and rejoicing for all.
(Exodus 20:8-11) By Jesus' day, though, it had become a maze of
oppressive, man-made rules. Scholar Alfred Edersheim wrote that in the
lengthy Sabbath-law sections of the Talmud, "matters are seriously
discussed as of vital religious importance, which one could scarcely
imagine a sane intellect would seriously entertain." (The Life and
Times of Jesus the Messiah) The rabbis attached life-and-death
importance to frivolous, arbitrary rules that regulated virtually
every aspect of a Jew's life--often with cold-blooded disregard for
human feeling. One Sabbath rule decreed: "If a building fell down upon
a man and there is doubt whether he is there or not, or whether he is
alive or dead, or whether he is a gentile or an Israelite, they may
clear away the ruin from above him. If they find him alive they may
clear it away still more from above him; but if [he is] dead, they
leave him."--Tractate Yoma 8:7, The Mishnah, translated by Herbert
Danby. http://www.watchtower.org/e/19950301/article_02.htm
And whether Gentile or Jew was important, of course, because a Gentile
should not be rescued from a collapsed building.
Regarding the subject of saving a life, too, the Torah differentiates
between a Jew and a Gentile. We learn in chapter 8 of Tractate
Kippurim (Yoma) mishnah 45 (in the Vilna edition mishnah 47): "One
upon whom the ruins of a building collapsed and there is doubt whether
he is there or not, whether he is alive or dead, whether he is a Jew
or a Gentile, we clear off [the rubble]. If they found him alive, they
clear off [the rubble], if dead, they leave him there." The Talmud
explains on page 85a: "It is needless to say 'there is doubt whether
he is alive or dead' if he is a Jew, but even if we are uncertain
whether he is a Gentile or a Jew we clear off [the rubble]," and thus
wrote Maimonides in chapter 2 of The Laws of the Sabbath, halacha 21
(in the Vilna edition, halacha 20): "If there was a courtyard with
both Gentiles and Jews, even one Jew and a thousand Gentiles, and the
ruins of a building collapsed upon them, we clear off the rubble from
everyone for the sake of the Jew. If one of them moved to another
courtyard and it collapsed upon him, we clear [the rubble] off him,
for perhaps the one who moved [to the other courtyard] is the Jew and
the ones who remained are the Gentiles."
http://www.daatemet.org.il/articles/article.cfm?article_id=119〈=en
But you ignore all of that because of your biases.
And I ignore the history, too? Like the history of Moses in heaven?
From Shabbath 88b (Soncino 1961 Edition, pages 421-425):
GEMARA. ... R. Joshua b. Levi also said: When Moses ascended on
high, the ministering angels spake before the Holy One, blessed be He,
'Sovereign of the Universe! What business has one born of woman
amongst us?' 'He has come to receive the Torah,' answered He to them.
Said they to Him, 'That secret treasure, which has been hidden by Thee
for nine hundred and seventy-four generations before the world was
created. Thou desirest to give to flesh and blood! What is man, that
thou art mindful of him, And the son of man, that thou visitest him? O
Lord our God, How excellent is thy name in all the earth! Who hast set
thy glory [the Torah] upon the Heavens!' 'Return them an answer,' bade
the Holy One, blessed be He, to Moses. 'Sovereign of the Universe'
replied he, 'I fear lest they consume me with the [fiery] breath of
their mouths.' 'Hold on to the Throne of Glory,' said He to him, 'and
return them an answer,' as it is said, He maketh him to hold on to the
face of his throne, And spreadeth [PaRSHeZ] his cloud over him,
whereon R. Nahman observed: This teaches that the Almighty [SHaddai]
spread [Pirash] the lustre [Ziw] of His Shechinah and cast it as a
protection over him. He [then] spake before Him: Sovereign of the
Universe! The Torah which Thou givest me, what is written therein? I
am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the Land of Egypt. Said
he to them [the angels], 'Did ye go down to Egypt; were ye enslaved to
Pharaoh: why then should the Torah be yours? Again, What is written
therein? Thou shalt have none other gods: do ye dwell among peoples
that engage in
Shabbath 89a
idol worship? Again what is written therein? Remember the Sabbath
day, to keep it holy: do ye then perform work, that ye need to rest?
Again what is written therein? Thou shalt not take [tissa] [the name ...
in vain]: is there any business [massa] dealings among you? Again what
is written therein, Honour thy father and thy mother; have ye fathers
and mothers? Again what is written therein? Thou shall not murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou Shall not steal; is there
jealousy among you; is the Evil Tempter among you? Straightway they
conceded [right] to the Holy One, blessed be He, for it is said, O
Lord, our Lord, How excellent is thy name, etc. whereas 'Who has set
thy glory upon the heavens' is not written. Immediately each one was
moved to love him [Moses] and transmitted something to him, for it is
said, Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast taken spoils [the Torah];
Thou hast received gifts on account of man: as a recompense for their
calling thee man [adam] thou didst receive gifts. The Angel of Death
too confided his secret to him, for it is said, and he put on the
incense, and made atonement for the people; and it is said, and he
stood between the dead and the living, etc. Had he not told it to him,
whence had he known it?
R. Joshua b. Levi also said: When Moses descended from before the
Holy One, blessed be He, Satan came and asked Him, 'Sovereign of the
Universe! Where is the Torah? 'I have given it to the earth.' answered
He to him. He went to the earth and said to her, 'Where is the Torah?'
'God understandeth the way thereof, etc.' she replied. He went to the
sea and it told him, 'It is not with me.' He went to the deep and it
said to him, 'It is not in me,' for it is said. The deep saith, It is
not in me: And the sea saith, It is not with me. Destruction and Death
say, We have heard a rumour thereof with our ears. He went back and
declared before Him, 'Sovereign of the Universe! I have searched
throughout all the earth but have not found it!' 'Go thee to the son
of Amram. answered He. [So] he went to Moses and asked him, 'Where is
the Torah which the Holy One, blessed be He, gave unto thee?' 'Who am
I then,' he retorted, 'that the Holy One, blessed be He, should give
me the Torah?' Said the Holy One, blessed be He, to Moses, 'Moses, art
thou a liar!' 'Sovereign of the Universe!' he replied, 'Thou hast a
stored-up treasure in which Thou takest delight every day: shall I
keep the benefit for myself?' 'Said the Holy One, blessed be He, to
Moses, 'Moses, since thou hast [humbly] disparaged thyself, it shall
be called by thy name, as it is said, Remember ye the law of Moses my
servant.
R. Joshua b. Levi also said: When Moses ascended on high, he found
the Holy One, blessed be He, tying crowns on the letters [of the
Torah]. Said He to him, 'Moses, is there no [greeting of] Peace in thy
town?' 'Shall a servant extend [a greeting of] Peace to his Master!'
replied he: 'Yet thou shouldst have assisted Me,' said He. Immediately
he cried out to Him, And now, I pray thee, let the power of the Lord
be great, according as thou hast spoken.
R. Joshua b. Levi also said: Why is it written; And when the
people, saw that Moses delayed [boshesh] [to come down from the
mount]? 'Read not boshesh' [delayed] but ba'u shesh [the sixth hour
had come]. When Moses ascended on high, he said to Israel, I will
return at the end of forty days, at the beginning of the sixth hour.
At the end of forty days Satan came and confounded the world. Said he
to them: 'Where is your teacher Moses?' 'He has ascended on high,'
they answered him. 'The sixth [hour] has come,' said he to them, but
they disregarded him. 'He is dead' -- but they disregarded him.
[Thereupon] he showed them a vision of his bier, and this is what they
said to Aaron, for this Moses, the man, etc.,
One of the Rabbis asked R. Kahana: Hast thou heard what the
mountain of Sinai [connotes]? The mountain whereon miracles [nissim]
were performed for Israel, he replied. Then it should be called Mount
Nisal? But [it means] the mountain whereon a happy augury [siman] took
place for Israel. Then it should be called, Mount Simanai? Said he to
him, Why dost thou not frequent [the academy of] R. Papa and R. Huna
the son of R. Joshua, who make a study of aggadah. For R. Hisda and
Rabbah the son of R. Huna both said, What is [the meaning of] Mount
Sinai? The mountain whereon there descended hostility [sin'ah] toward
idolaters. And thus R. Jose son of R. Hanina said: It has five names:
The Wilderness of Zin, [meaning] that Israel were given commandments
there; the Wilderness of Kadesh, where the Israelites were sanctified
[kadosh], the Wilderness of Kedemoth, because a priority [kedumah] was
conferred there; the Wilderness of Paran,
Shabbath 89b
because Israel was fruitful [paru] and multiplied there; and the
Wilderness of Sinai, because hostility toward idolaters descended
thereon. Whilst what was its [real] name? Its name was Horeb. Now they
disagree with R. Abbahu, For R. Abbahu said: its name was Mount Sinai,
and why was it called Mount Horeb? Because desolation [hurbah] to
idolaters descended thereon.
Heaven forbid I should ignore such scholarly work!
It's not scholarly, it's Talmudic, assuming that these quotes are valid.
But I don't expect you to understand the difference.
If I gave you the impression I could not find a difference, please
pardon me for being too subtle in my sarcasm.
Terry/Carol, anything you say is a lie, an insult or just plain nasty.
I can't credit you with even sarcasm because anything you say is so
buried in insult that it is not worth finding or trying to understand.
.
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