Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions

Religions > Atheism > Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions

LINK TO THIS PAGE

rating : 0 | 0

Page 5 of 9

Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"gatekeeper"
Date:	04 Oct 2006 02:39:29 AM
Object:	Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions

gatekeeper wrote:

Free Lunch wrote:

On 26 Sep 2006 18:39:12 -0700, in talk.origins
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1159321152.634855.5970@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>:

Free Lunch wrote:

On 25 Sep 2006 22:19:06 -0700, in talk.origins
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1159247946.535119.12830@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>:

Free Lunch wrote:

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:27:22 -0400, in talk.origins
"Dan Wood" <danwood34@gmail.com> wrote in
<2JYRg.13014$vi3.6750@bignews3.bellsouth.net>:

"Ye Old One" <usenet@mcsuk.net> wrote in message
news:oqgbh21v4ime03ug6hc62loq32vspgdvls@4ax.com...

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:09:56 -0400, "Dan Wood" <danwood34@gmail.com>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:4515A889.6010901@Nothing_But_The.Truth...

Dan Wood wrote:

[SNIPALOT]

No problem. I am a Christian, but I'm not a creationist. I believe

God

could

have created the universe, planets and life any way he chose. If he

chose

to create through evolution, who am I to dispute the evidence?

Dan Wood, DDS

===>That is a "goddidit" just the same,
though a move in the right direction.
You show that evolution and theism are not
totally incompatible, but do not show any value
to the pseudo-hypothesis of "God". -- L.

You have the right to believe anything that seems
reasonable and logical to you and I wish the best
for you. I hope for the same right for myself.

Until someone demonstrates that there is no God
I have no choice, but to accept God's existence
as a reality. Even so I have no imperative to
convince anyone of the validity of my position.

Dan

That is a slightly mad standpoint to take. Until there is some shread
of evidence for the existance of god(s) then the logical standpoint
woudl be to reject the concept of god(s).

There is evidence which I personally find satisfying.
But I have found that most skeptics demand proof
of God's existence before they are willing to consider
any evidence as potentially evidence for God.
IOW if there is any evidence which proves God
this evidence is inadmissible until God is shown
to exist.

And this, in my opinion, constitutes a hopeless catch - 22
situation.

It would be, if it were true. Offer the evidence. Let us be rational in
accepting it or rejecting it.

Part of the evidence is your inability to be rational, your rational
powers have been corrupted.

Please provide evidence to support your claim.

If the lense on the Hubble was out of
focus, the batteries all dead, would it affect your ability to observe
Andromeda? And yet Andromeda would still be there to be marveled at by
a child on a dark night using simple binoculars. How much more tragic,
that you a supposedly intelligent mature individual would not even lift
your eyes, less you see the stars for the first time, as if they could
not possibly exist.

So, you are back to unthinking assertions and unsupportable claims.

Lift up your eyes all you nations, the King of Kings has entered the
City of God!

The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!

So you say, but when asked for help with the evidence, you insult those
who ask you.

I did not hear you asking for help with the evidence. What evidence
are you asking about?

I have asked for evidence to support the claim that "But I have found
that most skeptics demand proof of God's existence before they are
willing to consider any evidence as potentially evidence for God." You
responded with the utterly meaningless "Part of the evidence is your
inability to be rational, your rational powers have been corrupted."

What help are you desiring? If I missed your
question, I apologize, but as you know this is a very busy, noisy
street! Please restate your question, and I will try to listen better!

I am asking for evidence to support the claim that one or more gods
exist and furthermore what evidence can you point to that the particular
god that you believe in exists.

The Eastgate is open, The King is in residence! Whomsoever will may
come in!

Gatekeeper

I am very interested, and willing to answer your questions, but a few
things first!

First, you already have ask more than one question, so I need you to
further explain what is your question, or if you are asking more than
one, that is ok also. However I want you to be clear to yourself, me,
and others, what your questions are!

Second, what sincere response can I expect from you, to my answer. In
other words, is your question sincere, or just conversational. I will
be willing to answer your question either way, but that way there is no
unexpected response from you, that would surprise us both.

Third, I believe the more the merrier, so I would like to suggest that
I not actually answer this question until others who are also
interested, have opportunity to check in, and indicate their interest
as well. That way we can have a real party!

Fourth, in order to accomplish this I would like to move this
discussion to a new thread, that way the discussion is not just between
you and I, lost in this rather large thread!
In fact, I am going to copy your question to a new thread as soon as I
get done here, and then if others want to check in, they could post as
well, possibly indicating the nature of evidence that they would like
to see. That way we could most efficiently answer all of your
questions, and have a single thread to work with. I will have it set up
to cross post to all of the current threads that this thread goes to so
that no one is left out of this grand experiment.

If you have any other suggestions, I would be more than glad to
entertain them on this new thread. I would be prepared to give you an
answer in a week, today being 9/27, so that on 10/04, we could have
everyone happily gathered. If this is suitable to you, please let me
know, on the new thread. I will be looking for your response!

The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!

Gatekeeper

Free Lunch wrote,
"I am asking for evidence to support the claim that one or more gods
exist and furthermore what evidence can you point to that the
particular
god that you believe in exists"
This thread was started to answer Free Lunch's questions as restated
above, and my answer simply follows -
You are the evidence that there is one God, only one God, and that this
God is the one God that I believe exists, and is revealed by Jesus, and
the Holy Spirit! This applies to you all as well, that ask this
question, and have so patiently waited for an answer, and even more so
to you all, for the evidence is even that much more multiplied by each
one of you!
As a witness, I have testified of the evidence that I have, it is up to
you to weigh the evidence, as to whether what I say is true or not!
Weigh carefully, for it is your own souls that are in the balance!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.

User: "Ye Old One"
Title: Re: Re: Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God on 4/10 - Now exposed as a stupid lying troll.	12 Oct 2006 09:59:44 AM

On 12 Oct 2006 07:28:54 -0700, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> enriched this group when s/he wrote:

Tom McDonald wrote:

Ye Old One wrote:

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 17:31:02 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> enriched this group when s/he wrote:

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 07:31:08 GMT, Ye Old One <usenet@mcsuk.net> wrote:
- Refer: <phrri2hg1t1fvmgkqhj0fm3ptuasra5ha8@4ax.com>

On 11 Oct 2006 16:46:19 -0700, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> enriched this group when s/he wrote:

Liar!

Why is it that so many "so-called" christians find it necessary to lie
so often?

Because they live a lie.
If they couldn't lie without thinking about it, they would not be able
to remain as christstains.

I have to say I do know many christians who do not lie - but they are
real christians. The usenet troll christians are a different breed.

I don't think GK is a liar, although his truthfulness in any
particular, as with anyone, can be suspect. His willingness to admit
that his 'evidence' is equally good for any other god or first cause,
while admitting he prefers his interpretation based on his life
experiences, seems to militate against him being a Liar for Christ.

I do think GK finds his experiences so real that nothing else can be
anything like as compelling--to *him*. His error, IMHO, is to think
that others will be able to translate his vividly experienced inner
reality into their own lives merely by the things he says.

His latest post, where he talks about powerful, life-altering
experiences that, too him, seem to have come from outside himself, are
the key to understanding where he's coming from. I respect his choices,
and even envy him a bit. In our world, it must be nice to have the
absolute certainty that things are explicable, and that the One in
charge knows and cares for me personally.

I think his inner experience owes more to his mind than to an external
higher power. But I can't call him a liar for what I think he honestly
holds to be proven to *his* satisfaction.

Good morning Tom, I appreciate hearing from you and I believe that your
assessment is generally correct! The Error that you point out is only
an error if I thought I could prove to you all, that what I had seen
was more than evidence, that God exists, as revealed through Jesus and
the Holy Spirit. I presented this only as evidence to you all, though
it was proof to me, that I can attribute to God's existence. Towards
you all, it is only evidence! That is why we who are called by His
name, are called witnesses!

But you have not even attempted to post any evidence. Eight days after
the time you set and still not one single shred of evidence.
Clearly you have none, you claim was a lie and a troll.
[snip the crap]
--
Bob.
.

User: "Mark Nutter"
Title: Re: Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God on 4/10 - Now exposed as a stupid lying troll.	12 Oct 2006 10:42:05 AM

gatekeeper wrote:

And your calling, like your evidence, all proceeds from the same place:
the feelings and imaginations of your own heart. You experience only
the internal "truth" of your own preferences and convictions, not an
external reality that could be shared by anyone else. You might, by
your example, encourage someone else to also put their faith in the
feelings and imaginations of their own hearts, and in the superstitious
traditions of men, but you cannot produce the simplest and most direct
evidence which you would possess if your beliefs were true. God does
not show up outside of your feelings, imaginations, and superstitions.
Your experiences are yours alone, because they occur only inside your
mind where none of the rest of us can observe them. You have the
experiences that you are capable of imagining on your own, and no more,
because you have put your faith in the words of men instead of in the
one true God whose truth is written in the real world.

I have witnessed of what God has done in saving me, through the
Sacrifice of Christ!

You have adopted the traditions of the Christians, which they adopted
from the Pharisees, which they obtained from pagan Persians. Betcha
didn't know that, didja? ;-)

I have witnessed of the Life that Jesus has taught me to live in
obediance to the Holy Spirit!

You have witnessed only that you listen to voices which are unable to
tell you anything you could not imagine on your own. You boast in the
traditions of men and in the feelings and imaginations of your own
heart, instead of in the true God. That is why God does not validate
your beliefs by showing up to confirm them.

I have witnessed to some of the glorious things that God has shown Me!

You have attributed to God the things you have "shown" yourself. The
voices you put your faith in are not able to show you anything you
cannot imagine for yourself. For example, they cannot show you what is
written on the paper in my back left pocket.

I have witnessed to you all of His Great Love by which He says, "He
will never leave us or forsake any of us, who were Lost, and now have
been found!"

It's true that you have to show up before you can leave. If indeed He
does love us so, why is it not He who is showing up to tell us about it
instead of (or even in addition to) you? You boast in the traditions
of men, but God does not confirm them, nor behave in any way as if they
were true.

I have witnessed of His promise, that we shall reign with Him forever
and forever!

The men who issued these promises are all dead now, and none of them
has the ability to fulfill any of them, or to force God to do so. Your
God does not even show up to *make* any promises, let alone keep them.

I have witnessed that we will all be changed!

You have claimed that, but you are only following the superstitious
traditions of men who have no power to fulfill what they promised (that
is, the promises they attributed to God). If their words fail to come
true, it is not God who has broken His word, but men who spoke falsely,
for these words are the words of men, not of God.

I have witnessed that we will all see Him, Face to face!

You have claimed this, but in fact He does not show up, even though
there is no reason for Him to hide, and every reason for Him to be
willing to walk among us, in a physically-real way, for true, loving,
face-to-face interaction. Men have promised a genuine appearance of
God, but they have no power to deliver what they have promised, and
their promises go unconfirmed by God Himself, who continually fails to
show up to speak of them.

God Loves all of us, and has shown His Great Love to all of us, now at
the end of the age, by sending His Son to Die! God witnessed of His
great Love!

This is what men have claimed, but if it were true, God Himself would
be foremost among those coming to us with this message of "love." Why
is He not showing up?

Jesus witnessed of His Love of the Father, and His Love of us, by
coming and dying!

So say the traditions of men. Jesus died because he self-righteously
insulted enough of the people in power that the brutality of the times
rebounded against him. His disciples couldn't accept his death, so they
combined the tradition of Passover with the Persian stories of the
resurrection of Mithras and mentally changed their loss into a
"spiritual" triumph. They had the same kind of inner, heart-generated
testimonies as you, testimonies that disdained the mere physical facts
of external reality in favor of a more satisfying inner reality.

The Father again witnessed of His great Love for The Son, and the
Creation, by raising Jesus from the Grave on the third day! and
restoring Him to the Right Hand of the Father.

So men say. There was no need for a resurrected and immortal Son of God
to suddenly disappear immediately after his supposed resurrection, but
if the "resurrection" only happened in the feelings and imaginations of
some people's hearts, then the Ascension becomes a very practical
excuse for why he never shows up. Only there's no reason for Jesus to
"ascend" (as though Heaven were a physical location up in the skies
over our heads). There's nothing Jesus can do in "Heaven" that He
couldn't do among us, and there's never any indication, even in the
Bible, that this sudden disappearing act was expected or needed. At
least not until early Christians needed an explanation for why their
"risen" Lord wasn't showing up any more.

Jesus witnessed of His Love for His People, by pouring out the Holy
Spirit into their hearts, so that they are now called His Body!

So men say. Each man, however, "receives" only whatever spirit he is
capable of imagining for himself. The "Holy Spirit" in one man's heart
cannot know what is being said to the "Holy Spirit" in another man's
heart, since each one is merely the product of an individual's fallible
and finite feelings and imaginations.

The Holy Spirit witnesses by showing through the Body, that we are the
Body of Christ today on earth! If you have seen the Body, you have
seen Christ!

Yep: if you've seen a bunch of Christians running around fooling
themselves, you have indeed seen all there is of Christ to see. If you
want evidence of how each Christian imagines his own "Holy Spirit,"
just look at Christianity, and its ever-increasing splinteredness and
doctrinal evolution. Each man "receives" from his "Spirit" only the
things he is capable of imagining on his own, and by some strange
coincidence, each man's "Spirit" happens to "confirm" that whatever
seems right in that man's eyes really is *God's* truth--no matter what
history says or what other Christians think their "Spirit" is revealing
to them.

Those that seek a sign, a proof, a photograph of God, are an affront
unto God, and break His Law, "Thou shalt not make a graven image!"

*rofl* You are really stretching now. I might ask you to provide
corroboration for the words you speak and the extraordinary claims you
make, but the most direct, obvious, and fundamental evidence of God is
not some sign or graven image or photograph, but simply for God Himself
to show up, as your traditions insist He ought to be willing and able
to do. You keep returning again and again to the same hollow
accusation: that men are somehow to blame for God's behavior. In so
doing, you secretly testify that your God is nothing but a sock-puppet,
whose actions are the product of human will and imagination.

They that think they can take a picture of God, and capture His
essence, on a piece of film, or in a golden calf, are fools, and do not
know God, or even seek to know God!

Thank you for finally admitting that these "appearances" of God are not
physically real. If they were, they would be photographable. And by
the way, nobody is trying to capture God's "essence" on film; we're
just talking about whether or not there exists any objective evidence
for what you claim. A photograph, while not foolproof, would still
constitute objective evidence. The fact that you admit it's not even
possible to photograph these "appearances" just confirms that they are
taking place inside your head and not in the real world.

The Law is Good, and is for out
Good! God knows that if we were to see Him in all of His Glory,
Creation would cease to exist as we know it.

So? The Bible is full of stories about people seeing God, so apparently
He is supposed to be able to control Himself when He so desires. But He
does not show up at all, glory or no glory. Why not?

Even so the Day comes
when we all will see Him, and there will be a New Heaven, and a New
Earth!

The men who promised such things have no power to deliver them. It is
not God's fault that day fails to come, since it is only the words of
men that are failing to come to pass.

They who seek a sign, have a sign, even the sign of Jonah, who was in
the belly of the whale for three days, even the Son of Man who was
buried for three days, and then was raised victorious over the Grave
and Death! You all that seek proof, have this evidence, a sign! You
are responsible for the evidence and the witness that you have, the
revelation of God that you have! And this is the witness that we Have,
that God was in Christ Jesus, restoring the World unto Himself, and
none will be without excuse!

You claim to have evidence and witness, and what you deliver are the
traditions of superstitious men. Is that the best you have to offer?
Inner subjective experiences, and the ancient traditions of
superstitious men? Yet if you had something more genuine and more
directly relevant to the question of God's existence, you would have
offered it by now, since it would have assisted you in your
self-described role as "gatekeeper." So I take that as evidence that
there is none.
We need no "excuse" for the fact that we have put men's words to the
test, and found that God does not confirm them. If you have issues with
that, take it up with the One whose behavior is disconfirming your
testimony.
m
.

User: "Mark Nutter"
Title: Re: Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God on 4/10 - Now exposed as a lying troll.	12 Oct 2006 05:22:18 AM

gatekeeper wrote:

Tom McDonald wrote:

The problem is of your making. I would appreciate it if you would just
acknowledge that, and not at the same time use the opportunity to take
a shot at another poster. It makes me question your sincerity.

What led Bob to charge you with trolling was not the cross-posting, it
was the way you came on strong with grandiose and boastful claims about
having evidence for God, and then offered only a vague, superstitious
reference for which even you could find no particular connection
between the general body of data you referred to and the conclusion you
were trying to support. And then, when the obvious inadequacies of your
"evidence" were pointed out, instead of acknowledging them and
addressing them, you began to accuse the rest of us of intellectual
dishonesty and laziness for failing to somehow make your argument work
and prove ourselves wrong. You even admitted that your "evidence" was
deliberately obfuscated and was an attempt to trick us and catch us.
Your whole approach has been one of trying to score points off of us
for failing to buy into the same traditions as you've bought into.
The problem is the trollish behavior, not the crossposting. But I have
not objected, because your arguments do provide consistent and
convincing testimony of the superstitious nature of your traditions,
and of the Christian failure to acknowledge and address the most
fundamental and obvious evidence which ought to be there if your
traditions were true.

That way if I originated the discussion, or it was originated on
account of a question that was posed to me, then others in t.o. in
particular, would not have to put up with any cross-posting noise that
they did not want to listen to.

That's a bogus argument. There's no law forcing anyone to read
everything you post in t.o. Not even in Google Groups.

I figured that T.O.M. would be happy
with this arrangement, but he insist on carrying on cross-posting,
which begins to look more like trolling now on his part. If he does
not want to put up with the discussion, then all he has to do is stop
cross posting.

Perhaps his objection has less to do with crossposting and more to do
with your failure to squarely acknowledge and address the inadequacies
in your "evidence" and to give an honest and objective response the
fundamental and obvious evidence which I have repeatedly pointed out.

At no point have I said that I would not entertain any question that he
poses to me on a.b. I would sincerely like to help the guy, but if he
won't help himself, what can I do!

It is fairly clear that you are imposing arbitrary restrictions in
order to provide yourself with a pretext for wiggling out of having to
respond. There is no reason why you couldn't simply post whatever
"help" you might have by simply hitting the "Reply" button/link when
you read his posts.

I have even continued posting
responses to t.o. to his questions, since it seems he is having trouble
finding a.b., even as I am doing with this post. Hopefully he will read
this, and maybe you can help him understand what he needs to do!

This is why you get accused of trolling: instead of squarely addressing
his objections, you create flimsy excuses and try to score cheap shots
against him personally. That's trollish, and if you don't want to earn
(and I do mean *earn*) the label "troll," you should avoid this kind of
gamesmanship.
m
.

User: "Ye Old One"
Title: Re: Re: Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God on 4/10 - Now exposed as a lying troll.	12 Oct 2006 07:58:19 AM

On 12 Oct 2006 03:22:18 -0700, "Mark Nutter" <manutter51@yahoo.com>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:

gatekeeper wrote:

Tom McDonald wrote:

What led Bob to charge you with trolling was not the cross-posting, it
was the way you came on strong with grandiose and boastful claims about
having evidence for God, and then offered only a vague, superstitious
reference for which even you could find no particular connection
between the general body of data you referred to and the conclusion you
were trying to support. And then, when the obvious inadequacies of your
"evidence" were pointed out, instead of acknowledging them and
addressing them, you began to accuse the rest of us of intellectual
dishonesty and laziness for failing to somehow make your argument work
and prove ourselves wrong. You even admitted that your "evidence" was
deliberately obfuscated and was an attempt to trick us and catch us.
Your whole approach has been one of trying to score points off of us
for failing to buy into the same traditions as you've bought into.

The problem is the trollish behavior, not the crossposting. But I have
not objected, because your arguments do provide consistent and
convincing testimony of the superstitious nature of your traditions,
and of the Christian failure to acknowledge and address the most
fundamental and obvious evidence which ought to be there if your
traditions were true.

That's a bogus argument. There's no law forcing anyone to read
everything you post in t.o. Not even in Google Groups.

At no point have I said that I would not entertain any question that he
poses to me on a.b. I would sincerely like to help the guy, but if he
won't help himself, what can I do!

100% spot on Mark.
Sadly though, I think it is wasted effort :)
--
Bob.
.

User: "Tom McDonald"
Title: Re: Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God on 4/10 - Now exposed as a lying troll.	11 Oct 2006 10:16:46 PM

gatekeeper wrote:

Tom McDonald wrote:

gatekeeper wrote:

Tom McDonald wrote:

gatekeeper wrote:

<snip>

Bob, I would refer you to a story that you may understand, which I
wrote to TM, earlier this evening, regarding a grizzly bear. Enjoy

You should be aware that Bob can't read your bear story to me, as I had
followed your request and posted only on alt.bible. Since you have
changed tack again, and again accepted crossposting, those of us who
honored your previous non-cross-posting request may not be fully
integrated into the larger thread.

<snip>

Thanks for the update, I am aware of the difficulty that Bob may be
having sorting out and finding the story, as he does also the truth.
Though I have told him that I post my primary anwswers on a.b. on a
number of ocassions. I figure if he can not exercise due diligence to
find these things, what chance does he have of sorting any mound of
evidence that he should stumble over! I have even encouraged him to
check with some of his friends who could help him out! We will see,

I started this thread, by carrying a question posed by Free Lunch, to
this a new thread, with the previous posting groups. Then as the
thread progressed certain ones complained about the cross posting to
t.o,, and that it represented trolling. One of the primary complainers
was The Old Man! I offered to him to stop cross posting, and that he
was welcome to join the discussion on a.b. where I would post my
replies to specific questions.

That way if I originated the discussion, or it was originated on
account of a question that was posed to me, then others in t.o. in
particular, would not have to put up with any cross-posting noise that
they did not want to listen to. I figured that T.O.M. would be happy
with this arrangement, but he insist on carrying on cross-posting,
which begins to look more like trolling now on his part. If he does
not want to put up with the discussion, then all he has to do is stop
cross posting.

At no point have I said that I would not entertain any question that he
poses to me on a.b. I would sincerely like to help the guy, but if he
won't help himself, what can I do! I have even continued posting
responses to t.o. to his questions, since it seems he is having trouble
finding a.b., even as I am doing with this post. Hopefully he will read
this, and maybe you can help him understand what he needs to do!

That's it for me. I'm not going to continue hanging out in alt.bible
any more. I'll read whatever gets cross-posted to t.o., but all this
noise about cross-posting is giving me a headache. Plus, of course, it
makes you say wrong things like telling Bob that he should have read
something he wouldn't have been able to read.
If you feel you have a mission, fine. But I think you need to clarify
your mission, and perhaps your communication style, before you do more
harm to the faith than you have already done.
Good luck to you. I will pray for your spiritual clarity.
.

User: "Flowerchild8245"
Title: Evidence of God	11 Oct 2006 11:50:20 PM

Many crying "Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God!"...
You may have seen the old pocket-watch on a table. You may have seen
the great gig in the sky! But have you sincerely looked up, down, left,
right, backward, and forward, and even within for God your own self?
Have you ever seen the glory of the Milky Way? The Andromeda? The
Orion nebula, the Helix, Ghost of Jupiter, Spirograph, Cat's Eye? If
you have, you ain't seen nothing yet! You would have just begun to see
the glory of the LORD God Almighty! The creator of heaven and earth and
all living things, His throne is not a little chair! The glory of it is
all around, like colorful lightning in the midst of a cloud reflecting
the glory even more! The power is so great, the elements snap crackle
and pop all around His glory!
I am certain no man can stand!
No man has stood on the Moon alone and said in his heart "there is no
God"!
The closer you will look into an Atom, the nearer you will see His
very great degree of intensity! And the further man travels into
creation, the closer we will see the truth of it, the source of it, the
Self Existent and Eternal God, YEHOVAH.
Or, it may be as easy as looking into a baby's eyes.
But ah, man, never stop looking! Look within too. What if God was
within you the whole time, and you never even knew! (DOH!)
.

User: "Mark Nutter"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 06:06:02 AM

Flowerchild8245 wrote:

Indeed I have, with my whole heart. But the stories in the Bible are
not about people looking up, down, left, right, and inwards, and then
being forced to content themselves with a mere concept or mental image
of God. The stories in the Bible are about a God who is able to show up
and interact tangibly with the physical reality that exists outside of
the feelings and imaginations of the heart.

This is called superstition, the act of attributing impressive things
to some invisible being or power, without being able to show any direct
(or even indirect) connection between the two. You might just as well
attribute the glories of the heavens to Zeus or Odin or the Flying
Spaghetti Monster or Krishna or Brahma or even Sherlock Holmes and Dr.
Watson. Anyone can attribute anything to anything else, but that
doesn't mean there's any real-world connection.

The creator of heaven and earth and
all living things, His throne is not a little chair! The glory of it is
all around, like colorful lightning in the midst of a cloud reflecting
the glory even more! The power is so great, the elements snap crackle
and pop all around His glory!

Yes, so teach the traditions of men. God does not say any such thing.
In fact, He (the Christian God, that is) doesn't even show up to say
anything at all. Men quote the words of other men, and call them the
Word of God. The words of men is all they have, because God does not
show up to give us His words.

I am certain no man can stand!
No man has stood on the Moon alone and said in his heart "there is no
God"!

No man has stood alone on the moon at all, so I guess what you say is
true. But that's not the same as the God of Christian tradition being
real.

The closer you will look into an Atom, the nearer you will see His
very great degree of intensity! And the further man travels into
creation, the closer we will see the truth of it, the source of it, the
Self Existent and Eternal God, YEHOVAH.

You're mixing up your traditions. The tradition during the King James
era was to give the name of God as "Jehovah," but subsequent scholars
observed that the vowel points on the original Hebrew word were the
vowels for "Adonai," ("Lord"), which was the word that pious Jews would
pronounce when seeing YHWH. The more authentic pronunciation of the
actual word would have been "Yahweh," at least according to the
linguists. Of course, you can invent your own traditions too if you
like. It wouldn't be the first time. ;-)

Or, it may be as easy as looking into a baby's eyes.

And being superstitious about it... ;->

But ah, man, never stop looking! Look within too. What if God was
within you the whole time, and you never even knew! (DOH!)

God is indeed within man, in the feelings and imaginations of his
heart. Gatekeeper's God even "speaks" to him, but unfortunately does
not know anything GK cannot imagine for himself. That's why there was a
grammatical error in GK's original "revelation," and why he had to turn
to real people for correction.
m
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 08:12:32 AM

"Mark Nutter" <manutter51@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism

God is indeed within man, in the feelings and imaginations of his
heart.

No way. The heart is just a blood pump.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.

User: "Mark Nutter"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 09:44:07 AM

Elroy Willis wrote:

"Mark Nutter" <manutter51@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism

God is indeed within man, in the feelings and imaginations of his
heart.

No way. The heart is just a blood pump.

I find that a certain amount of poetry is necessary when discussing
God, even if it *is* historically based on ancient ignorance about
which bodily organs supplied which functions ;)
m
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 10:49:57 AM

Mark Nutter <manutter51@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote:

Mark Nutter <manutter51@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism

God is indeed within man, in the feelings and imaginations of his
heart.

No way. The heart is just a blood pump.

I find that a certain amount of poetry is necessary when discussing
God, even if it *is* historically based on ancient ignorance about
which bodily organs supplied which functions ;)

Why?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.

User: "Mark Nutter"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 11:46:54 AM

Elroy Willis wrote:

Mark Nutter <manutter51@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote:

Mark Nutter <manutter51@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism

God is indeed within man, in the feelings and imaginations of his
heart.

No way. The heart is just a blood pump.

I find that a certain amount of poetry is necessary when discussing
God, even if it *is* historically based on ancient ignorance about
which bodily organs supplied which functions ;)

Why?

Because in many ways it speaks to the feelings and to one's intuitive
understanding more concisely than a technically-accurate concrete
description would. Similar to the way it's more convenient to speak of
"sunrise" and "sunset" even though technically it's the earth that
turns and not the sun that goes up and down.
Also, a literally accurate description of real-world phenomena would
make the concept of "God" a bit hard to define. ;-)
m
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 06:24:43 AM

On 12 Oct 2006 04:06:02 -0700, "Mark Nutter" <manutter51@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Flowerchild8245 wrote:

That's why a lot of ex-theist atheists became atheist, because as they
were having doubts they sincerely looked up, down, keft, right,
backward, forward and even withing and found none.

It's a consequence of childhood brainwashung. I once saw a mother say
to a small child "look at the beautiful sunset that God has given us".
The poor the child is going to grow up with a mental picture of every
word they use, that associates God with it.
But only those who believe that way already are going see it that way.
Which is hardly rocket science.
Anybody who uses the posters's "arguments" on those they know don't
already believe, has to be unbelievably stupid.
.

User: "Don Kresch"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 08:34:35 AM

In alt.atheism On 11 Oct 2006 21:50:20 -0700, "Flowerchild8245"
<flowerchild8245@netzero.com> let us all know that:

Argument from awe logical fallacy.

I am certain no man can stand!
No man has stood on the Moon alone and said in his heart "there is no
God"!

The heart is a muscle which pumps blood.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 10:54:09 AM

Don Kresch <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Flowerchild8245 let us all know that:

No man has stood on the Moon alone and said in his heart "there
is no God"!

The heart is a muscle which pumps blood.

Hey, finally someone who agrees with me!
What's those other people's problem? Hmm.. Oh, it's not their
problem, it's ours... We're poetically challenged.. That's it...
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.

User: "Ye Old One"
Title: Re: Evidence of God - neither Gatekeeper nor Flowerchild8245 produce any.	12 Oct 2006 07:47:56 AM

On 11 Oct 2006 21:50:20 -0700, "Flowerchild8245"
<flowerchild8245@netzero.com> enriched this group when s/he wrote:

Many crying "Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God!"...

Not just many.

You may have seen the old pocket-watch on a table. You may have seen
the great gig in the sky! But have you sincerely looked up, down, left,
right, backward, and forward, and even within for God your own self?

Yes, but he was not there.
As I grew up I realized he was just the invention of primitive man,
used to explain what they could not understand. He has no place in the
21st century.

Have you ever seen the glory of the Milky Way? The Andromeda? The
Orion nebula, the Helix, Ghost of Jupiter, Spirograph, Cat's Eye?

Yes, all of those and a lot more.

If
you have, you ain't seen nothing yet! You would have just begun to see
the glory of the LORD God Almighty!

I see nothing of this mythical god of yours. Believers claim he has
been around for nearly 15 billion years - and yet he has given us not
one shred of evidence. Strange that.

So he eats Rice Crispies?

I am certain no man can stand!

I can.

No man has stood on the Moon alone and said in his heart "there is no
God"!

The heart pumps blood - nothing more.
And any honest scientist who stood on the moon would clearly tell you
that there is zero evidence for your god(s).

The closer you will look into an Atom, the nearer you will see His
very great degree of intensity!

No, the deeper we look into the sub-atomic world, or the further we
look into space, the less places there are for your god(s) to hide.

And the further man travels into
creation, the closer we will see the truth of it, the source of it, the
Self Existent and Eternal God, YEHOVAH.

The invention of primitive bronze age men.

Or, it may be as easy as looking into a baby's eyes.

I do that a lot, still no sign of a god.

But ah, man, never stop looking! Look within too. What if God was
within you the whole time, and you never even knew! (DOH!)

When you find even the tiniest jot of evidence for the existence of
god(s) please feel free to post it.
Until then you just look like another troll in the Gatekeeper mould.
--
Bob.
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 02:48:58 AM

On 11 Oct 2006 21:50:20 -0700, "Flowerchild8245"
<flowerchild8245@netzero.com> wrote:
- Refer: <1160628620.908598.16460@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Many crying "Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God!"...

You may have seen the old pocket-watch on a table. You may have seen
the great gig in the sky! But have you sincerely looked up, down, left,
right, backward, and forward, and even within for God your own self?

Have you ever seen the glory of the Milky Way? The Andromeda? The
Orion nebula, the Helix, Ghost of Jupiter, Spirograph, Cat's Eye? If
you have, you ain't seen nothing yet! You would have just begun to see
the glory of the LORD God Almighty! The creator of heaven and earth and
all living things, His throne is not a little chair! The glory of it is
all around, like colorful lightning in the midst of a cloud reflecting
the glory even more! The power is so great, the elements snap crackle
and pop all around His glory!

I am certain no man can stand!
No man has stood on the Moon alone and said in his heart "there is no
God"!

The closer you will look into an Atom, the nearer you will see His
very great degree of intensity! And the further man travels into
creation, the closer we will see the truth of it, the source of it, the
Self Existent and Eternal God, YEHOVAH.

Or, it may be as easy as looking into a baby's eyes.

But ah, man, never stop looking! Look within too. What if God was
within you the whole time, and you never even knew! (DOH!)

What drugs are you on?
You sound even crazier than that 'gatekeeper' cretin, (if such a feat
is possible).
(And a hint: none of your ravings come anywhere near "evidence".)
For the sake of the world in general, I sincerely hope that you are
simply executing a rather disturbing parody of a nutcase.
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 07:57:36 AM

Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Flowerchild8245 <flowerchild8245@netzero.com> wrote:

Many crying "Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God!"...
No man has stood on the Moon alone and said in his heart "there is no
God"!
The closer you will look into an Atom, the nearer you will see His
very great degree of intensity! And the further man travels into
creation, the closer we will see the truth of it, the source of it, the
Self Existent and Eternal God, YEHOVAH.
Or, it may be as easy as looking into a baby's eyes.
But ah, man, never stop looking! Look within too. What if God was
within you the whole time, and you never even knew! (DOH!)

What drugs are you on?

Look at the name - Flowerchild. Probably LSD. Sounds like one
a them hippies to me. Probably has a child named Moonbeam or
Star.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 06:26:40 PM

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:57:36 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
- Refer: <bmesi2dbr0g8h4jfd7jet0pavgd43h4cci@4ax.com>

Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Flowerchild8245 <flowerchild8245@netzero.com> wrote:

Many crying "Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God!"...

No man has stood on the Moon alone and said in his heart "there is no
God"!

Or, it may be as easy as looking into a baby's eyes.

But ah, man, never stop looking! Look within too. What if God was
within you the whole time, and you never even knew! (DOH!)

What drugs are you on?

Look at the name - Flowerchild. Probably LSD. Sounds like one
a them hippies to me. Probably has a child named Moonbeam or
Star.

Or Dweezle.
Damn long-haired pippies.
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"
Title: Re: Evidence of God	12 Oct 2006 03:39:47 AM

On 11 Oct 2006 21:50:20 -0700, "Flowerchild8245"
<flowerchild8245@netzero.com> wrote:

Why the ***** should we do your work for you, moron?

Have you ever seen the glory of the Milky Way? The Andromeda? The
Orion nebula, the Helix, Ghost of Jupiter, Spirograph, Cat's Eye? If
you have, you ain't seen nothing yet! You would have just begun to see
the glory of the LORD God Almighty! The creator of heaven and earth and
all living things, His throne is not a little chair! The glory of it is
all around, like colorful lightning in the midst of a cloud reflecting
the glory even more! The power is so great, the elements snap crackle
and pop all around His glory!

How so, brainwashed moron?

I am certain no man can stand!
No man has stood on the Moon alone and said in his heart "there is no
God"!

Why the ***** should anybody, moron, any more than you would climb the
Eiffel Tower to say there's no Santa Claus?
Are you really this stupid?

How does any of that show God, moron?
When YOU prove your ***** to the rest of us YOU have to step aside
from your presumptions which are all you have, as though you had never
heard of it, and derive it.
Which you can't do.

Or, it may be as easy as looking into a baby's eyes.

Idiot.

But ah, man, never stop looking! Look within too. What if God was
within you the whole time, and you never even knew! (DOH!)

Don't be so fucking stupid.
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God on 4/10 - Now exposed as a lying troll.	12 Oct 2006 02:41:47 AM

On 11 Oct 2006 20:16:46 -0700, "Tom McDonald" <kiltmac@gmail.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1160623006.603598.46050@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>

gatekeeper wrote:

Tom McDonald wrote:

gatekeeper wrote:

Tom McDonald wrote:

gatekeeper wrote:

<snip>

Bob, I would refer you to a story that you may understand, which I
wrote to TM, earlier this evening, regarding a grizzly bear. Enjoy

That's it for me. I'm not going to continue hanging out in alt.bible
any more. I'll read whatever gets cross-posted to t.o., but all this
noise about cross-posting is giving me a headache. Plus, of course, it
makes you say wrong things like telling Bob that he should have read
something he wouldn't have been able to read.

If you feel you have a mission, fine. But I think you need to clarify
your mission, and perhaps your communication style, before you do more
harm to the faith than you have already done.

Good luck to you. I will pray for your spiritual clarity.

I don't think that even your supposed god is *that* powerful!
.

User: "gatekeeper"
Title: Re: Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God on 4/10 - Now exposed as a lying troll.	12 Oct 2006 04:24:24 AM

Tom McDonald wrote:

gatekeeper wrote:

Tom McDonald wrote:

gatekeeper wrote:

Tom McDonald wrote:

gatekeeper wrote:

<snip>

Bob, I would refer you to a story that you may understand, which I
wrote to TM, earlier this evening, regarding a grizzly bear. Enjoy

That's it for me. I'm not going to continue hanging out in alt.bible
any more. I'll read whatever gets cross-posted to t.o., but all this
noise about cross-posting is giving me a headache. Plus, of course, it
makes you say wrong things like telling Bob that he should have read
something he wouldn't have been able to read.

If you feel you have a mission, fine. But I think you need to clarify
your mission, and perhaps your communication style, before you do more
harm to the faith than you have already done.

Good luck to you. I will pray for your spiritual clarity.

Thank you Tom for your prayers, and even now as I have been praying
about the Faith, and how to share the Faith, with others, I have
received certain clarity regarding bob and your association with him,
and his continuing request requiring me to cross post to t.o! I in no
way have hard feeling toward him, and will be praying for him as well.
I am certain that the time will come that I will find my way to t.o.
and we all will meet again. For the time being, I felt it was necessary
to restrict my comments to a.b. though I have no objection to go
wherever the Lord leads me.
I would share this with you, that you may understand both my boldness,
and also the fear of the Lord that is an integral part of my service to
Him.
I had been a Christian for about three years, when one day (Jan 1,1970)
I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of
Speaking in Tongues! Now this happened under non-stressful, and
non-excited conditions. There was no fanfare, or music, or big crowd,
I was simply praying by myself as I had many times, when all of a
sudden when I went to Thank Him, all that came out was the "tongues"!
I had no idea of what was going on! I had never heard about tongues
before, or ever heard them to know anything about them! This was a
total sovereign move of God on me and in me. My whole religious
background taught that this had all ceased, and was not for today!
The previous accounting, was just lead up to what I desired to share
with you, and I would say, if there is evidence in my own life, of all
the things that I said I had come to believe, had testified to, and had
prayed about, desiring more of Him, to know Him, and the power that
raised Him from the grave, and the fellowship of His suffering. To
know His will, and to be pleasing to Him, and so I constantly sought
His presence. When the above occurred, I was totally energized with
this new revelation of Himself.
However, He had more to show me! Due to circumstances, and it is a
long story, in the ensuing month, I had moved to the home of my folks
in New Orleans, where I had taken over their living room briefly till I
figured out where I should go. One evening, I was awaken to find a
person standing in the archway of the room from which a Golden Light
was emanating! This Light, passed though everything in the room, and
it was as if you could see right through the furniture and other
objects in the room! Despite this amazing display, I felt no fear of
this Being, which I knew, was Jesus. In fact there was a total sense
of Peace that accompanied His appearing!
I do not expect that this whole time that went by, was probably more
than several minutes, though I was not particularly aware of time, or
the passage of time, nor did I feel rushed. There was just this warm
glow coming out from Him, and I felt a healing in my heart, of all the
sadness and hurts that had ever been inflicted on me by anyone! Then,
He very clearly spoke to me, saying, " Go and fear not, for I Am with
you where ever you go!" And then He was Gone! I wished afterwards
that I had had sense enough to at least bow to Him or something, but as
it was, I just sat there, looking at Him! Afterwards there was a
tremendous sense of Liquid Love surrounding me that lasted for months
and even now I can sense as fresh as ever!
Now I share this with you, and all that will read it, and it is entered
into the archives forever, knowing, that there are those who will mock,
and even Christians that cannot receive what I say, and yet I am
choosing to say these things, to you and to anyone that will hear me.
The Lord our God is a Living God, and the evidence I have of this are
the things I have seen and heard, and that I am willing to suffer
whatever mocking may be dumped upon me, that I may fill up His
suffering. If this seems to be foolishness to anyone, I gladly suffer
this shame, that I am a fool for Christ, if that by any means, I can
see even one turn to the Lord of Love.
That I am bold to stand as Gatekeeper, is not that I am strong, or that
I am not intimidated at times by the crowd of nay Sayers, but that I
have seen Him, and now somehow I find I must share these things! I
cannot hide them under a bushel basket, and if I do not speak, the
rocks themselves will cry out. If I have offended anyone with my
enthusiasm, please understand even the meaning of that word, "in God "!
This is not some religious creed, or idle chatter, or superfluous hype,
I have seen Him, and when the question came up regarding whether He is
real, I could not, not share. I have written many things in regard to
this, but it is not some high minded discussion for me, it is not a
philosophical exchange, it is a matter of something I have been
wrestling with for years now, trying to come to terms with, what is the
significance of this experience I had, and how do I share this with
anyone, besides a group of skeptics and hostile antagonist. Lord help
me if I do not share!
I wanted to share this with bob, and others, but I did not want to in
any way hinder them from entering the Kingdom, so even now, I pray that
God would take my words, and hide them if no one should see them, and
if you are to see them, that they would be a blessing to you. I assure
you that the testimony of what I saw is true! I would also say that I
have seen Him on subsequent occasions as He ministers in and thru the
Body. I realize that this is not the normal fare of t.o., or for that
matter even most Christian or religious groups! But I also know it is
a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God!
This experience does not in my opinion make me of any particular
standing above any one else, and in fact makes me only all the more
responsible to share these things, and to make myself of even less
report, as I find myself subject to the scoffers, skeptics, and
unbelievers. I will say that I have boldness, because He said Go, I am
with you! But my Faith has not always been so strong, Lord forgive me
my unbelief. I did not run to be Gatekeeper; it only took God 35 years
to get me here! I have been a very slow learner! But through this, He
gives me patients for those who are also slow learners, those who are
outside the normal boundaries of the Church, who are outside the Gate.
Others may not talk with you, but I will talk with you if you desire to
hear from me!
Forgive me if I forget that apart from Him I can do nothing, and yet
thru Him, I can do all things. Forgive me if in doing all things, I
should offend any of you, for I do not desire to offend anyone, but
even as Jesus, He was tender to the entire crowd! I do want to remain
tender, and if I have acted rudely or arrogantly like I am something
special, please forgive me, for despite the things that I have seen, I
still need to be forgiven, and to learn to walk in His Spirit of Love.
That old sinful flesh is so deceitful!
Yes I do have a mission, and a commission, to share His Love, He is
Love, and He would that all would come to Him, come to Him and Know His
Great Love that He has made Known through Jesus Christ His Son. Jesus
who came and lived in the flesh, died, was raised, and ascended to the
Father, All because He Loves each and every one of us! None of us have
done anything that He does not forgive, except that you do not accept
the Sacrifice of His Son!
Peace to you Tom, and again thank you for your prayers. May God bless
this testimony of Him who is the Lover of our souls!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.

User: "Mark Nutter"
Title: Re: Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God on 4/10 - Now exposed as a lying troll.	12 Oct 2006 07:09:59 AM

gatekeeper wrote:

Tom McDonald wrote:

Good luck to you. I will pray for your spiritual clarity.

Unfortunately, your Lord is unable to lead you in any way you cannot
imagine for yourself, which is why you must resort to empty posturing
instead of squarely addressing the most basic and fundamental evidence
and/or instead of offering any genuine evidence of your own.

I had been a Christian for about three years, when one day (Jan 1,1970)
I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of
Speaking in Tongues!

Anybody can speak in tongues. I can do it myself. It's a simple mental
trick. In jazz, it's called "scat."

Now this happened under non-stressful, and
non-excited conditions. There was no fanfare, or music, or big crowd,
I was simply praying by myself as I had many times, when all of a
sudden when I went to Thank Him, all that came out was the "tongues"!

The suggestion planted by hearing the traditions of men finally
manifested, eh? Isn't exciting to "receive a gift" that only a few very
special people receive? ;-)

I had no idea of what was going on! I had never heard about tongues
before, or ever heard them to know anything about them! This was a
total sovereign move of God on me and in me. My whole religious
background taught that this had all ceased, and was not for today!

Right. You had never heard of pentecostals before, or charismatics. You
never attended the Bible Temple in Portland Oregon, where ***** Iverson
was pastor, prior to that point. Never met any charismatics. Never read
the second chapter of Acts or any of I Cor. 12-14. Never attended any
revivals. Right?

The previous accounting, was just lead up to what I desired to share
with you, and I would say, if there is evidence in my own life, of all
the things that I said I had come to believe, had testified to, and had
prayed about, desiring more of Him, to know Him, and the power that
raised Him from the grave, and the fellowship of His suffering. To
know His will, and to be pleasing to Him, and so I constantly sought
His presence. When the above occurred, I was totally energized with
this new revelation of Himself.

I thought you said this took place without any excitement? If you knew
nothing about speaking in tongues (i.e. babbling), how is it that you
knew this was supposed to be a good and exciting thing, as opposed to,
say, a demonic oppression interfering with your tongue to prevent you
from thanking God clearly? And why would God "reveal" Himself by giving
you the "gift of the gabble," when He obviously doesn't care enough
about mankind in general to even show up and tell us that there is such
a "gift"? And isn't it an amazing coincidence that this "gift" consists
only of doing what anybody can easily do with very little effort?
Provided, of course, that they see any value at all in unhinging their
tongues to make random noises.

However, He had more to show me! Due to circumstances, and it is a
long story, in the ensuing month, I had moved to the home of my folks
in New Orleans, where I had taken over their living room briefly till I
figured out where I should go. One evening, I was awaken to find a
person standing in the archway of the room from which a Golden Light
was emanating!

Ah, so you had fallen asleep first? That's an interesting point.

This Light, passed though everything in the room, and
it was as if you could see right through the furniture and other
objects in the room! Despite this amazing display, I felt no fear of
this Being, which I knew, was Jesus. In fact there was a total sense
of Peace that accompanied His appearing!

If he appeared to you, why does he not appear to the rest of us so that
we can share that same peace? What makes you so special?

I do not expect that this whole time that went by, was probably more
than several minutes, though I was not particularly aware of time, or
the passage of time, nor did I feel rushed. There was just this warm
glow coming out from Him, and I felt a healing in my heart, of all the
sadness and hurts that had ever been inflicted on me by anyone! Then,
He very clearly spoke to me, saying, " Go and fear not, for I Am with
you where ever you go!" And then He was Gone! I wished afterwards
that I had had sense enough to at least bow to Him or something, but as
it was, I just sat there, looking at Him! Afterwards there was a
tremendous sense of Liquid Love surrounding me that lasted for months
and even now I can sense as fresh as ever!

Isn't it a shame how Jesus so needlessly refuses to share such
wonderful blessings with the rest of us--especially since he supposedly
loves us so much? That's even worse that you not grabbing a snapshot of
this appearance, or having any other witnesses to it.

Now I share this with you, and all that will read it, and it is entered
into the archives forever, knowing, that there are those who will mock,
and even Christians that cannot receive what I say, and yet I am
choosing to say these things, to you and to anyone that will hear me.

Sure. *You* show up and say things. That's more than your God is
willing or able to do. You give your "testimony," and your witness
confirms that there ought to be no reason why God cannot appear to the
rest of us if He really wanted to. Otherwise, the appearance you just
claimed could not have happened outside of your imagination (or
possibly dreams). So the most basic and obvious bit of evidence, i.e.
God showing up or not, is indeed a valid consideration. And He does not
show up. He should be willing and able to, according to your testimony,
but He does not.
I do not mock your testimony, I merely point out the ways in which it
highlights the conflict between what Christian traditions claim, and
what we actually observe in the real world.

The Lord our God is a Living God, and the evidence I have of this are
the things I have seen and heard, and that I am willing to suffer
whatever mocking may be dumped upon me, that I may fill up His
suffering. If this seems to be foolishness to anyone, I gladly suffer
this shame, that I am a fool for Christ, if that by any means, I can
see even one turn to the Lord of Love.

If he is indeed a "Lord of Love," why isn't he here saying so instead
of you? What kind of "lover" invokes middlemen to have his
relationships for him, when he is perfectly capable of showing up in
person?

That I am bold to stand as Gatekeeper, is not that I am strong, or that
I am not intimidated at times by the crowd of nay Sayers, but that I
have seen Him, and now somehow I find I must share these things! I
cannot hide them under a bushel basket, and if I do not speak, the
rocks themselves will cry out. If I have offended anyone with my
enthusiasm, please understand even the meaning of that word, "in God "!

And the words "in the feelings and imaginations of the heart." The
desire to somehow ratify one's beliefs can be a particularly strong
motive when one's beliefs are out-of-sync with reality. When the facts
fail to confirm your traditions, it is only natural to at least try to
get other people to support them, so that they don't collapse from
their own flimsiness.

This is not some religious creed, or idle chatter, or superfluous hype,
I have seen Him, and when the question came up regarding whether He is
real, I could not, not share.

Why does it come down to you? Why can you not point at something
verifiable, in the real world, that would confirm God's existence?
Something like the most basic and obvious evidence which would result
if your traditions were more than just superstition and subjectivism?
God actually showing up?
Understand, I have nothing against you personally, and I'm sure you
have convinced yourself that every word you are saying is in some sense
"true." But I believe in testing the words of men, as even the Bible
agrees we should do, and the fact is, anybody could post a claim that
they had seen God (or Allah, or Krishna, or whoever). The question is
not what you can claim, it's what you can provide genuine evidence of.
You claim God appears to men, since He allegedly appeared to you, but
God clearly fails to confirm your claim (i.e. by showing up for the
rest of us). Whatever you might have experienced, or thought you had
perceived somehow, God is not confirming it by showing up.
It wasn't that long ago that you were arguing in favor of the idea that
we cannot trust our senses or our reason. I disagreed with that idea
then and I still disagree. We're not infallible, but we're a long ways
from being forced into universal agnosticism. Truth is consistent with
itself, and real-world truth is not consistent with your testimony. God
does not show up. It's that simple.

I have written many things in regard to
this, but it is not some high minded discussion for me, it is not a
philosophical exchange, it is a matter of something I have been
wrestling with for years now, trying to come to terms with, what is the
significance of this experience I had, and how do I share this with
anyone, besides a group of skeptics and hostile antagonist. Lord help
me if I do not share!

The help you really need is for the Lord to confirm your testimony by
showing up for the rest of us. He's not supposed to be a respecter of
persons, right? He's not supposed to play favorites with you and deny
His other children the same blessings, especially not when He's
allegedly so eager to bestow them on us.

I wanted to share this with bob, and others, but I did not want to in
any way hinder them from entering the Kingdom, so even now, I pray that
God would take my words, and hide them if no one should see them, and
if you are to see them, that they would be a blessing to you.

Well, if you wanted Him to hide them from me, I'm afraid you're outa
luck. ;-)

I assure
you that the testimony of what I saw is true!

But "true" in what sense? Is this a real world, physical interaction,
or a spiritual perception of your heart? Could I have seen what you saw
if I had been present? Would a camera have been able to record the
image on film?

I would also say that I
have seen Him on subsequent