Religions > Atheism > Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"gatekeeper" |
| Date: |
04 Oct 2006 02:39:29 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
gatekeeper wrote:
Free Lunch wrote:
On 26 Sep 2006 18:39:12 -0700, in talk.origins
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1159321152.634855.5970@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>:
Free Lunch wrote:
On 25 Sep 2006 22:19:06 -0700, in talk.origins
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1159247946.535119.12830@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>:
Free Lunch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:27:22 -0400, in talk.origins
"Dan Wood" <danwood34@gmail.com> wrote in
<2JYRg.13014$vi3.6750@bignews3.bellsouth.net>:
"Ye Old One" <usenet@mcsuk.net> wrote in message
news:oqgbh21v4ime03ug6hc62loq32vspgdvls@4ax.com...
On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:09:56 -0400, "Dan Wood" <danwood34@gmail.com>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:4515A889.6010901@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Dan Wood wrote:
[SNIPALOT]
No problem. I am a Christian, but I'm not a creationist. I believe
God
could
have created the universe, planets and life any way he chose. If he
chose
to create through evolution, who am I to dispute the evidence?
Dan Wood, DDS
===>That is a "goddidit" just the same,
though a move in the right direction.
You show that evolution and theism are not
totally incompatible, but do not show any value
to the pseudo-hypothesis of "God". -- L.
You have the right to believe anything that seems
reasonable and logical to you and I wish the best
for you. I hope for the same right for myself.
Until someone demonstrates that there is no God
I have no choice, but to accept God's existence
as a reality. Even so I have no imperative to
convince anyone of the validity of my position.
Dan
That is a slightly mad standpoint to take. Until there is some shread
of evidence for the existance of god(s) then the logical standpoint
woudl be to reject the concept of god(s).
There is evidence which I personally find satisfying.
But I have found that most skeptics demand proof
of God's existence before they are willing to consider
any evidence as potentially evidence for God.
IOW if there is any evidence which proves God
this evidence is inadmissible until God is shown
to exist.
And this, in my opinion, constitutes a hopeless catch - 22
situation.
It would be, if it were true. Offer the evidence. Let us be rational in
accepting it or rejecting it.
Part of the evidence is your inability to be rational, your rational
powers have been corrupted.
Please provide evidence to support your claim.
If the lense on the Hubble was out of
focus, the batteries all dead, would it affect your ability to observe
Andromeda? And yet Andromeda would still be there to be marveled at by
a child on a dark night using simple binoculars. How much more tragic,
that you a supposedly intelligent mature individual would not even lift
your eyes, less you see the stars for the first time, as if they could
not possibly exist.
So, you are back to unthinking assertions and unsupportable claims.
Lift up your eyes all you nations, the King of Kings has entered the
City of God!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
So you say, but when asked for help with the evidence, you insult those
who ask you.
I did not hear you asking for help with the evidence. What evidence
are you asking about?
I have asked for evidence to support the claim that "But I have found
that most skeptics demand proof of God's existence before they are
willing to consider any evidence as potentially evidence for God." You
responded with the utterly meaningless "Part of the evidence is your
inability to be rational, your rational powers have been corrupted."
What help are you desiring? If I missed your
question, I apologize, but as you know this is a very busy, noisy
street! Please restate your question, and I will try to listen better!
I am asking for evidence to support the claim that one or more gods
exist and furthermore what evidence can you point to that the particular
god that you believe in exists.
The Eastgate is open, The King is in residence! Whomsoever will may
come in!
Gatekeeper
I am very interested, and willing to answer your questions, but a few
things first!
First, you already have ask more than one question, so I need you to
further explain what is your question, or if you are asking more than
one, that is ok also. However I want you to be clear to yourself, me,
and others, what your questions are!
Second, what sincere response can I expect from you, to my answer. In
other words, is your question sincere, or just conversational. I will
be willing to answer your question either way, but that way there is no
unexpected response from you, that would surprise us both.
Third, I believe the more the merrier, so I would like to suggest that
I not actually answer this question until others who are also
interested, have opportunity to check in, and indicate their interest
as well. That way we can have a real party!
Fourth, in order to accomplish this I would like to move this
discussion to a new thread, that way the discussion is not just between
you and I, lost in this rather large thread!
In fact, I am going to copy your question to a new thread as soon as I
get done here, and then if others want to check in, they could post as
well, possibly indicating the nature of evidence that they would like
to see. That way we could most efficiently answer all of your
questions, and have a single thread to work with. I will have it set up
to cross post to all of the current threads that this thread goes to so
that no one is left out of this grand experiment.
If you have any other suggestions, I would be more than glad to
entertain them on this new thread. I would be prepared to give you an
answer in a week, today being 9/27, so that on 10/04, we could have
everyone happily gathered. If this is suitable to you, please let me
know, on the new thread. I will be looking for your response!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
Free Lunch wrote,
"I am asking for evidence to support the claim that one or more gods
exist and furthermore what evidence can you point to that the
particular
god that you believe in exists"
This thread was started to answer Free Lunch's questions as restated
above, and my answer simply follows -
You are the evidence that there is one God, only one God, and that this
God is the one God that I believe exists, and is revealed by Jesus, and
the Holy Spirit! This applies to you all as well, that ask this
question, and have so patiently waited for an answer, and even more so
to you all, for the evidence is even that much more multiplied by each
one of you!
As a witness, I have testified of the evidence that I have, it is up to
you to weigh the evidence, as to whether what I say is true or not!
Weigh carefully, for it is your own souls that are in the balance!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
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| User: "Mark Nutter" |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
10 Oct 2006 04:54:01 AM |
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gatekeeper wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 8 Oct 2006 20:19:22 -0700, "gatekeeper"
What a pathetic excuse to avoid even the flimsiest scrutiny, you
craven coward.
Your fellow deludees must be cringing with embarrassment.
I will post here, using your cross posted groups, since you seem to
feel that I am afraid of meeting you on level ground! There is no
fear, or intimidation for I know who is on my side! The King of Glory
is on my side, He is on my right hand and my left. You do not fight
me, but you are fignting Him, who someday you shall stand before and
give account!
The men who left those promises for you are all dead, and have no power
to fulfill them. Nor does the voice, which you think of as God, have
even the power to correct your own grammatical errors. Your God does
not show up for us to fight against, nor would there be any need to
fight against Him if He did show up. Our issues are with you, because
you did show up, and He doesn't.
Then you will have all the evidence that you demand of
Him now!
Yeah, too little too late. Why the delay? Does He not want people
entering through His gate? What's the deal?
I hope you have all your cute little answers written down on
your crib sheet, you will need them!
Yeah, so say a bunch of men who have no power to fulfill such threats.
God does not make such bullying pronouncements. Who do you suppose is
the *real* source of this intellectual extortion? "Nice body you got
there. It would be a *shame* if it were to get thrown into Hell and
made to suffer eternally..." He's supposed to be God the Father, not
The Godfather.
In the future, I will only answer
you on alt.bible Thank you for your interest! God Loves you, and I Love
you in Christ, seek Him while He may yet be found,
Christ does not behave as though he thought your little sermonettes
were true. Why should we believe them if he is clearly unwilling or
unable to do so?
m
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| User: "Tom McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
08 Oct 2006 10:38:51 PM |
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gatekeeper wrote:
William T. Goat wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
You ask a general question for evidence, I offered you general
evidence! If that was not what you really wanted, that is not my
problem!
I have also since offered you and others the opportunity to restate
your request, and I will do my best to offer you specific evidence to
meet your criteria, which I can only guess at. I could guess at your
criteria for a long time, and never arrive at anything acceptable to
you. For this reason, I am asking you to provide a specific request!
Please provide evidence that I was not created by the gods of the Hindu
religion.
--Billy
Please note that I have said I will only answer questions posted
directly on alt.bible, not cross posted, and I will only post my answer
on alt.bible. Please repost your request only on alt.bible, and I will
be glad to give you a response!
OK:
Please provide evidence that I was not created by the gods of the Hindu
religion.
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
08 Oct 2006 11:37:25 PM |
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Tom McDonald wrote:
Please provide evidence that I was not created by the gods of the Hindu
religion.
Please note that I have said I will only answer questions posted
directly on alt.bible, not cross posted, and I will only post my answer
on alt.bible. Please repost your request only on alt.bible, and I will
be glad to give you a response!
As I recall, you were one of the complainers about the crossposting!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
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| User: "Ye Old One" |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God on 4/10 - now stands exposed as a lying troll. |
09 Oct 2006 03:04:53 AM |
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On 8 Oct 2006 21:37:25 -0700, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
Tom McDonald wrote:
Please provide evidence that I was not created by the gods of the Hindu
religion.
Please note that I have said I will only answer questions posted
directly on alt.bible, not cross posted, and I will only post my answer
on alt.bible. Please repost your request only on alt.bible, and I will
be glad to give you a response!
As I recall, you were one of the complainers about the crossposting!
Another example of the stupidity of a lying troll.
--
Bob.
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| User: "Mark Nutter" |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
08 Oct 2006 09:26:23 AM |
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gatekeeper wrote:
You ask a general question for evidence, I offered you general
evidence! If that was not what you really wanted, that is not my
problem!
No, the question concerned specific evidence, namely "evidence that
your God exists." That's specific. You gave a general answer ("You"),
and claimed that it specifically addressed the point you were asked to
support, namely that your God exists. You have not even attempted to
indicate any specific line of inquiry that allegedly would make the
connection between the extremely vague and broad category of
information which you offered, and the conclusion you said it would
support. Nor have you addressed the fact that your cited "evidence"
supports any number of other superstitions just as readily as it does
your own.
Instead, you've gone straight to accusing *us* of having failed in some
way, and of lacking this, that or the other virtue, and of being
generally unworthy persons, and various other forms of dirt-kicking.
You've made it transparently obvious that your whole schtick is merely
a flimsy pretext for saying unkind things about us, in order to
distract from the complete non-existence of the most obvious and
fundamental evidence that would result from your traditions being true.
In a way, you *have* given specific and reliable evidence: you've
demonstrated that the things you believe have no basis in reality.
I have also since offered you and others the opportunity to restate
your request, and I will do my best to offer you specific evidence to
meet your criteria, which I can only guess at.
No need to guess. It's not even a difficult criterion to perceive. If
your traditions about God were true, the most obvious and fundamental
evidence that would result is that God would show up and teach us about
Himself so that we would not need your convoluted and obscure arguments
and inflammatory rhetoric to pester us into pretending He was real.
I could guess at your
criteria for a long time, and never arrive at anything acceptable to
you. For this reason, I am asking you to provide a specific request!
I request that you provide me with the most fundamental and obvious
evidence which would exist if your traditions about God were true:
namely that He show up in the real world and teach us the truth about
Himself so that we would not be forced to put our faith exclusively in
the traditions of men and the superstitions, feelings, and imaginations
of our own hearts.
I would think that you as an apostate believer, could come up with a
serious question, that I could not answer, but so far all you have
done is whined about my previous offering, which was based on your (or
I should say FL's) rather poorly stated initial request.
I would think that since every word you type is being archived in
groups.google.com you would be more careful about making statements
that can easily be demonstrated to be false. Especially as you are so
fond of accusing *us* of intellectual dishonesty and laziness. You can
pretend I've never told you what the most fundamental and obvious
evidence would be, and you might even fool yourself, but your
self-delusion will not make my words vanish from the Google archives.
I also during
that week long waiting period spoke often to you in particular, and
reminded you and others to state your request, which none of you did.
I needled you with my continual reminding of the upcoming date, and all
you did was play games as if you were some sort of prophet. You were
so busy playing around, you failed to see the weakness of your
position. Some even worried more about their popcorn!
You know, if you had any kind of legitimate point to make, you wouldn't
need to spend so much time in empty posturing. You would just provide
some genuine evidence. That *is* what you claim you're here for, isn't
it?
So I again encourage you to ask your questions, which Scripture has
stated, that I should be ready to give an answer for the Hope that is
in me, but you must ask your question! I continue to look forward to
your sincere question, which I will answer only on alt.bible, since one
of the accusations has been that I am trolling, and wasting bandwidth
with the cross-posting! So with this post, I am giving notice that I
will answer questions posted only on alt.bible, and will only post my
answer on alt.bible!
Yeah, yeah, duck and cover. If you ever have any *genuine* evidence,
you're more than welcome to post it here. But if you'd rather take the
remarks of one person as offering you an excuse to scurry away, then go
ahead and scoot.
Gosh, can you imagine what Paul would have done if the Pharisees had
accused *him* of being a troll? We might not have a New Testament!
I will do my best to give you an answer for the hope that is in me, and
as always, I am glad to announce,
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
Yeah, we're glad you keep repeating that grammatically-incorrect
message too. It acts like kind of a warning label. "Caution: this
message may contain errors!"
m
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| User: "Ye Old One" |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper failed to offer evidence of God on 10/4 - now condemned as a troll. |
07 Oct 2006 07:09:10 PM |
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On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 17:00:43 -0700, Earle Jones
<earle.jones@comcast.net> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
In article <1160227451.299373.249920@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
"R.S." <rand@hickorytech.net> wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:
On 5 Oct 2006 11:03:54 -0700, Mark Nutter wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Mark Nutter wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
And so you will have no excuse when you see Him, for you have had
many
opportunities to acknowledge Him! However it is still not to late!
God
loves you!
[...]
*
Sorry that I was offline on 10/4. Could someone please send me the
"evidence of God" that Gatekeeper posted?
Thanks,
earle
*
He didn't post any, and has spent a lot of time since doing his very
best to look like a lying troll. He may be a little more educated than
McClueless (well most people are) but he is almost as persistent in
his lying.
--
Bob.
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| User: "CreateThis" |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
07 Oct 2006 10:00:03 AM |
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On 7 Oct 2006 06:24:11 -0700, "R.S." <rand@hickorytech.net> wrote:
I Believe in GOD the FATHER ALMIGHTY, (Omnipotent, Omniscient)
[...etc.]
That's nice. Thanks for sharing.
I believe I'll have some breakfast.
CT
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| User: "Mark Nutter" |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
07 Oct 2006 08:50:38 AM |
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R.S. wrote:
<snip annotated recitation of human creed>
This is my belief,
I don't demand you to believe what I believe,
Decent of you. Have you ever wondered why "believing" is something
different from finding out about things that actually exist in the real
world?
I ask you to consider in the span of the time of Forever,
wouldn't you rather have an eternal conscious existence - memory and
thought (forever) (KEEP YOUR SOUL),
than have a short conscious existence (live in FLESH)
for a maximum of say 100 years (a blink of an Eye) then die (LOSE YOUR
SOUL)
compared to Eternity (Forever).
Why would my preferences cause reality to turn itself into what I
wanted? Personally, I'd rather know what the truth is, than to delude
myself into believing whatever seemed good and pleasant in my own
sight.
I Believe that the BOOK - RELEASING THE SPIRIT - by WATCHMAN NEE
could explain things better to you, and with an OPEN MIND may even
change
your opinion about CHRISTIANITY and YOUR LIFE in General.
(It's Bible Insights are incredible to say the least)
Been there, done that. Nee is an interesting writer, but he's only
human after all. He says some things that tickle some people's ears.
But God does not behave as though He believed what Nee was teaching.
A Good Audio CD - to Teach you what to do to accept JESUS is
SHARE JESUS WITHOUT FEAR by William Fay
Don't know much about him beyond that he's another man claiming to
speak on God's behalf. But God does not preach the same things.
(If you really want to experience what GOD has for your Life,
Pray outloud in JESUS Name that GOD'S WILL be Done on Earth as it is in
Heaven (GOD'S WILL is identified in the Holy Bible and you have the
right to Claim anything that GOD has written in the Bible for yourself
and others - read outloud the exact Bible verse you are claiming)
(A Very Good Reason to Read the Bible)
(So Do Not Pray for your own personal desires but for the WILL of GOD
to Be Done and claim it!)
Yeah, name it and claim it. Been there, done that. Here's how it works:
you name it, you claim it, and then whatever happens next, you figure
out some way to say that in some sense God was either giving you what
you asked for, or giving you something better, or telling you (in His
infinite wisdom) that it was better you not get what you requested.
Heads I win tails you lose scorekeeping.
Put GOD First in Your Life
Attempt to Eliminate your Selfish and Egotistical Mentality, Wrath,
Pride, Greed, Lust, Sloth, Glutony, Envy (Soulishness) and
your Fleshy Desires (experiences of sinful actions of your five senses
- sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell)
(THE ways you SIN)
From Your Life.
You really want to stop being so selfish? Start praying that God will
send you to Hell and give your place in Heaven to some unrepentant
sinner who needs it more than you.
Be Kind, with a true concern for the well-being of others, Humble,
considerate, generous in helping others improve their lives. The Bible
book of Proverbs is a good guide to a way of living. You will be
Blessed if you believe this to be true.
Sure, helping others provides social benefits, whether or not it takes
place in a Christian context.
I don't condemn anyone for having their own opinion, so I would hope
you might allow me the same consideration.
Sure, go for it. Not all opinions are equally well-grounded in reality,
of course. I reserve the right to comment if men try to tell me their
subjective opinions are "more true" than real-world truth.
Another Inspiring BOOK - The Heavenly Man - by Brother Yun and Paul
Hattaway
(True Story of Christian Brother Yun)
Yeah, more traditions of men. Thanks, I'll pass. I've got a better God
now. ;)
I Hope You the very best always, whether or not you agree with me, and
wish you and you family a Blessed Life.
Thank you, and may you experience the blessings of my God as well.
Remember the Holy Bible is
History - HIS STORY
and the most widely distributed Book in the World!
How did it get to be so? IT"S THE TRUTH and also the SPIRIT of GOD!
You be the Judge!
It is the words of men about God, proclaimed to be "The Truth" by men,
and published and promoted by men. God Himself does not endorse it.
m
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| User: "R.S." |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
07 Oct 2006 10:46:23 AM |
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Mark Nutter wrote:
R.S. wrote:
<snip annotated recitation of human creed>
In snipping you removed all my personal explanations that are annotated
in that Apostle's Creed, not your so called human creed,
This is my belief,
I don't demand you to believe what I believe,
Decent of you. Have you ever wondered why "believing" is something
different from finding out about things that actually exist in the real
world?
What is your definition of proof (actual existence)? Something you can
physically identify with your five meger senses?
IF so, you are really limiting your concept of reality, Snakes smell
with their tongues, Bloodhounds can smell far beyond our range, and
most dogs can hear far beyond our range. Bats navigate by sonar, Owls
can see extremely well at night, Eagles can see great distances, We
supposedly only use a maximum of 10% of our brains, what would happen
if we could activate the rest. I believe we had full activation before
the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden, who's to say what our
capabilities are. Would we have additional senses we cannot even
curently comtemplate? I say the world's round. Can you personally prove
it with your own ability standing on the ground? I think not, therefore
you may question the exsistence of GOD the FATHER, but by your own
ability to preceive you cannot prove non-existence either.
I believe in infinitely smaller and infinitely bigger and infinite
directions, and infinitely smaller distances say traveling half the
distance toward an object and then half of that infinitely you would
never reach the object.
so all in all, I would say our perception of reality is relative to our
ability to preceive and not
actually existence of something or not.
Would you agree?
Science is based on theory, a belief that it is true, so your point or
premiss is if it cannot be proven or dupliplicated in a lab it can't be
true, Is that correct? IF so ergo science cannot prove much of itself.
I ask you to consider in the span of the time of Forever,
wouldn't you rather have an eternal conscious existence - memory and
thought (forever) (KEEP YOUR SOUL),
than have a short conscious existence (live in FLESH)
for a maximum of say 100 years (a blink of an Eye) then die (LOSE YOUR
SOUL)
compared to Eternity (Forever).
Why would my preferences cause reality to turn itself into what I
wanted? Personally, I'd rather know what the truth is, than to delude
myself into believing whatever seemed good and pleasant in my own
sight.
I Believe that the BOOK - RELEASING THE SPIRIT - by WATCHMAN NEE
could explain things better to you, and with an OPEN MIND may even
change
your opinion about CHRISTIANITY and YOUR LIFE in General.
(It's Bible Insights are incredible to say the least)
Been there, done that. Nee is an interesting writer, but he's only
human after all. He says some things that tickle some people's ears.
But God does not behave as though He believed what Nee was teaching.
GOD does behave so in My life.
You Claim to have read Nee, but your speal does nothing and says
nothing to prove it, if you have, what does the above mentioned book
speak of?
A Good Audio CD - to Teach you what to do to accept JESUS is
SHARE JESUS WITHOUT FEAR by William Fay
Don't know much about him beyond that he's another man claiming to
speak on God's behalf. But God does not preach the same things.
How is it that you are the all knowing resident expert on everything,
but without having heard the audio CD you think that your
opinion/belief is the end all to the subject thats appears to be an
unwillingness to determine truth as a reality or not?
(If you really want to experience what GOD has for your Life,
Pray outloud in JESUS Name that GOD'S WILL be Done on Earth as it is in
Heaven (GOD'S WILL is identified in the Holy Bible and you have the
right to Claim anything that GOD has written in the Bible for yourself
and others - read outloud the exact Bible verse you are claiming)
(A Very Good Reason to Read the Bible)
(So Do Not Pray for your own personal desires but for the WILL of GOD
to Be Done and claim it!)
Yeah, name it and claim it. Been there, done that. Here's how it works:
you name it, you claim it, and then whatever happens next, you figure
out some way to say that in some sense God was either giving you what
you asked for, or giving you something better, or telling you (in His
infinite wisdom) that it was better you not get what you requested.
Heads I win tails you lose scorekeeping.
If You actually understood, the point is that you have no right to
claim anything on you own life, because you have SINNED i.e. committed
evil deeds and evil thoughts, only in JESUS Name and by Praying GOD'S
WILL (Not Your own Will) be Done on Earth as it is in Heaven can you
receive promises and blessings of the Bible.
Put GOD First in Your Life
Attempt to Eliminate your Selfish and Egotistical Mentality, Wrath,
Pride, Greed, Lust, Sloth, Glutony, Envy (Soulishness) and
your Fleshy Desires (experiences of sinful actions of your five senses
- sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell)
(THE ways you SIN)
From Your Life.
You really want to stop being so selfish? Start praying that God will
send you to Hell and give your place in Heaven to some unrepentant
sinner who needs it more than you.
Free will and personal choice is the only determination for Heaven, its
not selfish to want everybody to be in a good place is it, its not
selfish to want everyone to have a good life is it, its not selfish of
me to want the best for you is it? Why would you make such a hateful
statement?
Be Kind, with a true concern for the well-being of others, Humble,
considerate, generous in helping others improve their lives. The Bible
book of Proverbs is a good guide to a way of living. You will be
Blessed if you believe this to be true.
Sure, helping others provides social benefits, whether or not it takes
place in a Christian context.
Absolutely, You Don't have to be a Christian for these actions to
benefit society, but you do have to hold these values to be a good
Christian,
I don't condemn anyone for having their own opinion, so I would hope
you might allow me the same consideration.
Sure, go for it. Not all opinions are equally well-grounded in reality,
of course. I reserve the right to comment if men try to tell me their
subjective opinions are "more true" than real-world truth.
Another Inspiring BOOK - The Heavenly Man - by Brother Yun and Paul
Hattaway
(True Story of Christian Brother Yun)
Yeah, more traditions of men. Thanks, I'll pass. I've got a better God
now. ;)
I Hope You the very best always, whether or not you agree with me, and
wish you and you family a Blessed Life.
Thank you, and may you experience the blessings of my God as well.
Who is your God?
Remember the Holy Bible is
History - HIS STORY
and the most widely distributed Book in the World!
How did it get to be so? IT"S THE TRUTH and also the SPIRIT of GOD!
You be the Judge!
It is the words of men about God, proclaimed to be "The Truth" by men,
and published and promoted by men. God Himself does not endorse it.
Can you explain the far greater percentages of the Bible Code groupings
(Prophecies) in the TORAH (first four books of the Bible in Hebrew)
then other books of similar size?
If not why wouldn't you consider that a sort of proof in itself?
m
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| User: "Anders" |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
07 Oct 2006 12:13:51 PM |
|
|
"R.S." <rand@hickorytech.net> writes:
Mark Nutter wrote:
R.S. wrote:
<snip annotated recitation of human creed>
In snipping you removed all my personal explanations that are annotated
in that Apostle's Creed, not your so called human creed,
This is my belief,
I don't demand you to believe what I believe,
Decent of you. Have you ever wondered why "believing" is something
different from finding out about things that actually exist in the real
world?
What is your definition of proof (actual existence)? Something you can
physically identify with your five meger senses?
IF so, you are really limiting your concept of reality, Snakes smell
with their tongues, Bloodhounds can smell far beyond our range, and
most dogs can hear far beyond our range. Bats navigate by sonar, Owls
can see extremely well at night, Eagles can see great distances, We
supposedly only use a maximum of 10% of our brains, what would happen
if we could activate the rest. I believe we had full activation before
the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden, who's to say what our
capabilities are. Would we have additional senses we cannot even
curently comtemplate?
Bzzzzt!
That 10% myth is just that. Google it.
I say the world's round. Can you personally prove
it with your own ability standing on the ground? I think not,
Simple. I can travel west all the time and end up where I started.
Ever heard of Magellan?
I can observe lunar eclipses and watch the shape of the earths shadow.
I can duplicate Eratosthenes millennia old experiment to determine the
earths circumference.
I can observe ships going over the horizon and gradualy dissapear,
lowest portion of the hull first.
therefore
you may question the exsistence of GOD the FATHER, but by your own
ability to preceive you cannot prove non-existence either.
Huh?
<snip>
--
Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do
with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon.
-Susan Ertz
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
08 Oct 2006 02:07:49 AM |
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On 07 Oct 2006 19:13:51 +0200, Anders Halling<ajhallin@sli.uio.nope>
wrote:
- Refer: <98xac48t5f4.fsf@kolme.ifi.uio.no>
"R.S." <rand@hickorytech.net> writes:
Mark Nutter wrote:
R.S. wrote:
<snip annotated recitation of human creed>
In snipping you removed all my personal explanations that are annotated
in that Apostle's Creed, not your so called human creed,
This is my belief,
I don't demand you to believe what I believe,
Decent of you. Have you ever wondered why "believing" is something
different from finding out about things that actually exist in the real
world?
What is your definition of proof (actual existence)? Something you can
physically identify with your five meger senses?
IF so, you are really limiting your concept of reality, Snakes smell
with their tongues, Bloodhounds can smell far beyond our range, and
most dogs can hear far beyond our range. Bats navigate by sonar, Owls
can see extremely well at night, Eagles can see great distances, We
supposedly only use a maximum of 10% of our brains, what would happen
if we could activate the rest. I believe we had full activation before
the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden, who's to say what our
capabilities are. Would we have additional senses we cannot even
curently comtemplate?
Bzzzzt!
That 10% myth is just that. Google it.
:
It appears to revel in obvious mythology.
.
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| User: "Mark Nutter" |
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| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
07 Oct 2006 12:05:02 PM |
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R.S. wrote:
Mark Nutter wrote:
R.S. wrote:
<snip annotated recitation of human creed>
In snipping you removed all my personal explanations that are annotated
in that Apostle's Creed, not your so called human creed,
Um, you *are* human, right?
Have you ever wondered why "believing" is something
different from finding out about things that actually exist in the real
world?
What is your definition of proof (actual existence)? Something you can
physically identify with your five meger senses?
No, my idea is more along the lines of "Doesn't depend on the feelings
and imaginations of the heart for its existence and character."
We
supposedly only use a maximum of 10% of our brains, what would happen
if we could activate the rest.
Yeah, I bet if we could use the other 90% we could imagine all kinds of
stuff.
I believe we had full activation before
the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden, who's to say what our
capabilities are.
Then you are putting your faith in the traditions of men (i.e. the men
who wrote the stories you refer to, the men who pronounced them to be
The Word of God, the men who translated them, the men who interpreted
them, and so on).
Would we have additional senses we cannot even
curently comtemplate?
We would not need them: according to the traditions men teach about
the Christian God, people were able to see Him just fine, if He chose
to be seen.
I say the world's round. Can you personally prove
it with your own ability standing on the ground? I think not, therefore
you may question the exsistence of GOD the FATHER, but by your own
ability to preceive you cannot prove non-existence either.
Likewise for Zeus, Santa, Thor, Krishna, etc. As I said before, you
don't need to be omniscient to know the difference between the truth
and a bunch of traditions that contradict themselves and the real
world.
I believe in infinitely smaller and infinitely bigger and infinite
directions, and infinitely smaller distances say traveling half the
distance toward an object and then half of that infinitely you would
never reach the object.
so all in all, I would say our perception of reality is relative to our
ability to preceive and not
actually existence of something or not.
Would you agree?
I would say you are trying to address God's behavior by trying to cause
us to doubt that it is possible to know anything at all. Such universal
agnosticism is not real faith. If God acted like He really believed the
things Christians say about Him, such sophistries would be unnecessary.
Science is based on theory, a belief that it is true, so your point or
premiss is if it cannot be proven or dupliplicated in a lab it can't be
true, Is that correct? IF so ergo science cannot prove much of itself.
Nope, not even close. My premise is that truth does not contradict
itself.
Been there, done that. Nee is an interesting writer, but he's only
human after all. He says some things that tickle some people's ears.
But God does not behave as though He believed what Nee was teaching.
GOD does behave so in My life.
No He does not, because if He did, it wouldn't be just something that
took place "in your life." It would happen in the common reality we all
share, and we'd all know about it. You *interpret* things in your life
and in the feelings and imaginations of your heart, and by this
*interpretation* you arrive at a subjective experience that you believe
signifies God actually doing something. However that falls far short of
the kind of behaviors God would be displaying if He actually believed
what Christians say about Him.
You Claim to have read Nee, but your speal does nothing and says
nothing to prove it, if you have, what does the above mentioned book
speak of?
It has been a very long time and I only have vague memories of it now,
though for a time I was very impressed by it (until my experience
failed to match what Nee led me to expect). It is possible that I have
my titles confused, and that I'm thinking of some other book by him.
Beyond that, I really care very little whether or not you believe I've
read his stuff or not.
A Good Audio CD - to Teach you what to do to accept JESUS is
SHARE JESUS WITHOUT FEAR by William Fay
Don't know much about him beyond that he's another man claiming to
speak on God's behalf. But God does not preach the same things.
How is it that you are the all knowing resident expert on everything,
but without having heard the audio CD you think that your
opinion/belief is the end all to the subject thats appears to be an
unwillingness to determine truth as a reality or not?
You are mistaken. I am not "the all knowing resident expert on
everything." I do know the difference between a man saying things about
God, and God saying things about God. Do you?
Yeah, name it and claim it. Been there, done that. Here's how it works:
you name it, you claim it, and then whatever happens next, you figure
out some way to say that in some sense God was either giving you what
you asked for, or giving you something better, or telling you (in His
infinite wisdom) that it was better you not get what you requested.
Heads I win tails you lose scorekeeping.
If You actually understood, the point is that you have no right to
claim anything on you own life, because you have SINNED i.e. committed
evil deeds and evil thoughts, only in JESUS Name and by Praying GOD'S
WILL (Not Your own Will) be Done on Earth as it is in Heaven can you
receive promises and blessings of the Bible.
I understood that very clearly, it just didn't work. In fact, it's got
its own built-in excuse already: if it ever fails (as it often will),
you just say "Well, you weren't doing it right, you were seeking your
own will instead of God's." Another "Heads I win tails you lose"
scorekeeping system. A real God would not need a built-in excuse and a
rigged scoring system like that.
You really want to stop being so selfish? Start praying that God will
send you to Hell and give your place in Heaven to some unrepentant
sinner who needs it more than you.
Free will and personal choice is the only determination for Heaven, its
not selfish to want everybody to be in a good place is it, its not
selfish to want everyone to have a good life is it, its not selfish of
me to want the best for you is it? Why would you make such a hateful
statement?
Nothing hateful about it. I was just telling you how you could
sacrifice your own self-interest to the benefit of others. You won't do
it because your own motives are ultimately selfish, as are everyone's.
I don't honestly expect you to be willing to voluntarily stop seeking
to benefit yourself by your faith and deeds. All motives, and all
morality, are ultimately driven by self-interest. You desire to be
"saved" because you believe it is in your own best interests to be
saved. If you honestly felt like "salvation" was going to lead to your
eternal torment, you would not seek it, no matter what you claim about
selflessness.
Sure, helping others provides social benefits, whether or not it takes
place in a Christian context.
Absolutely, You Don't have to be a Christian for these actions to
benefit society, but you do have to hold these values to be a good
Christian,
You don't even have to be a Christian to hold those values.
I Hope You the very best always, whether or not you agree with me, and
wish you and you family a Blessed Life.
Thank you, and may you experience the blessings of my God as well.
Who is your God?
The God you see and hear and touch and smell every day of your life.
The God whose laws you can never disobey. The God who created you and
who will claim your soul at the end of your life. The God who decrees
what the Christian God may and may not do. The God who exists at all
times and in all places, whose "mind" is so vast and incomprehensible
that we are only flattering ourselves to call it a "mind" at
all--that's how much greater my God is than any lesser deity men have
created in their own image. You may not recognize this God as God, but
you must obey Her (or Him, or It--God does not have sex or produce baby
gods, so reproductive roles are irrelevant to Her/Him/It).
It is the words of men about God, proclaimed to be "The Truth" by men,
and published and promoted by men. God Himself does not endorse it.
Can you explain the far greater percentages of the Bible Code groupings
(Prophecies) in the TORAH (first four books of the Bible in Hebrew)
then other books of similar size?
If not why wouldn't you consider that a sort of proof in itself?
Sure. Bible codes are an illusion. You can find "Bible code prophecies"
in Moby *****. It's an artifact of the techniques used to "discover" the
codes you are looking for. But more than that, if God wanted us to know
He was real (your God, I mean, not mine), then He wouldn't need to hide
the evidence of His existence in some arcane secret code. The only
reason people are desperate enough to look for secret codes in the
first place is because God consistently fails to manifest the most
obvious and fundamental behavior He ought to be manifesting if He
existed and believed Christian traditions were true.
He doesn't show up.
m
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| User: "R.S." |
|
| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
07 Oct 2006 10:56:56 AM |
|
|
Mark Nutter wrote:
R.S. wrote:
<snip annotated recitation of human creed>
In snipping you removed all my personal explanations that are annotated
in that Apostle's Creed, not your so called human creed,
This is my belief,
I don't demand you to believe what I believe,
Decent of you. Have you ever wondered why "believing" is something
different from finding out about things that actually exist in the real
world?
What is your definition of proof (actual existence)? Something you can
physically identify with your five meger senses?
IF so, you are really limiting your concept of reality, Snakes smell
with their tongues, Bloodhounds can smell far beyond our range, and
most dogs can hear far beyond our range. Bats navigate by sonar, Owls
can see extremely well at night, Eagles can see great distances, We
supposedly only use a maximum of 10% of our brains, what would happen
if we could activate the rest. I believe we had full activation before
the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden, who's to say what our
capabilities are. Would we have additional senses we cannot even
curently comtemplate? I say the world's round. Can you personally prove
it with your own ability standing on the ground? I think not, therefore
you may question the exsistence of GOD the FATHER, but by your own
ability to preceive you cannot prove non-existence either.
I believe in infinitely smaller and infinitely bigger and infinite
directions, and infinitely smaller distances say traveling half the
distance toward an object and then half of that infinitely you would
never reach the object.
so all in all, I would say our perception of reality is relative to our
ability to preceive and not
actually existence of something or not.
Would you agree?
Science is based on theory, a belief that it is true, so your point or
premiss is if it cannot be proven or dupliplicated in a lab it can't be
true, Is that correct? IF so ergo science cannot prove much of itself.
I ask you to consider in the span of the time of Forever,
wouldn't you rather have an eternal conscious existence - memory and
thought (forever) (KEEP YOUR SOUL),
than have a short conscious existence (live in FLESH)
for a maximum of say 100 years (a blink of an Eye) then die (LOSE YOUR
SOUL)
compared to Eternity (Forever).
Why would my preferences cause reality to turn itself into what I
wanted? Personally, I'd rather know what the truth is, than to delude
myself into believing whatever seemed good and pleasant in my own
sight.
I Believe that the BOOK - RELEASING THE SPIRIT - by WATCHMAN NEE
could explain things better to you, and with an OPEN MIND may even
change
your opinion about CHRISTIANITY and YOUR LIFE in General.
(It's Bible Insights are incredible to say the least)
Been there, done that. Nee is an interesting writer, but he's only
human after all. He says some things that tickle some people's ears.
But God does not behave as though He believed what Nee was teaching.
GOD does behave so in My life.
You Claim to have read Nee, but your speal does nothing and says
nothing to prove it, if you have, what does the above mentioned book
speak of?
A Good Audio CD - to Teach you what to do to accept JESUS is
SHARE JESUS WITHOUT FEAR by William Fay
Don't know much about him beyond that he's another man claiming to
speak on God's behalf. But God does not preach the same things.
How is it that you are the all knowing resident expert on everything,
but without having heard the audio CD you think that your
opinion/belief is the end all to the subject thats appears to be an
unwillingness to determine truth as a reality or not?
(If you really want to experience what GOD has for your Life,
Pray outloud in JESUS Name that GOD'S WILL be Done on Earth as it is in
Heaven (GOD'S WILL is identified in the Holy Bible and you have the
right to Claim anything that GOD has written in the Bible for yourself
and others - read outloud the exact Bible verse you are claiming)
(A Very Good Reason to Read the Bible)
(So Do Not Pray for your own personal desires but for the WILL of GOD
to Be Done and claim it!)
Yeah, name it and claim it. Been there, done that. Here's how it works:
you name it, you claim it, and then whatever happens next, you figure
out some way to say that in some sense God was either giving you what
you asked for, or giving you something better, or telling you (in His
infinite wisdom) that it was better you not get what you requested.
Heads I win tails you lose scorekeeping.
If You actually understood, the point is that you have no right to
claim anything on you own life, because you have SINNED i.e. committed
evil deeds and evil thoughts, only in JESUS Name and by Praying GOD'S
WILL (Not Your own Will) be Done on Earth as it is in Heaven can you
receive promises and blessings of the Bible.
Put GOD First in Your Life
Attempt to Eliminate your Selfish and Egotistical Mentality, Wrath,
Pride, Greed, Lust, Sloth, Glutony, Envy (Soulishness) and
your Fleshy Desires (experiences of sinful actions of your five senses
- sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell)
(THE ways you SIN)
From Your Life.
You really want to stop being so selfish? Start praying that God will
send you to Hell and give your place in Heaven to some unrepentant
sinner who needs it more than you.
Free will and personal choice is the only determination for Heaven, its
not selfish to want everybody to be in a good place is it, its not
selfish to want everyone to have a good life is it, its not selfish of
me to want the best for you is it? Why would you make such a hateful
statement?
Be Kind, with a true concern for the well-being of others, Humble,
considerate, generous in helping others improve their lives. The Bible
book of Proverbs is a good guide to a way of living. You will be
Blessed if you believe this to be true.
Sure, helping others provides social benefits, whether or not it takes
place in a Christian context.
Absolutely, You Don't have to be a Christian for these actions to
benefit society, but you do have to hold these values to be a good
Christian,
I don't condemn anyone for having their own opinion, so I would hope
you might allow me the same consideration.
Sure, go for it. Not all opinions are equally well-grounded in reality,
of course. I reserve the right to comment if men try to tell me their
subjective opinions are "more true" than real-world truth.
Another Inspiring BOOK - The Heavenly Man - by Brother Yun and Paul
Hattaway
(True Story of Christian Brother Yun)
Yeah, more traditions of men. Thanks, I'll pass. I've got a better God
now. ;)
I Hope You the very best always, whether or not you agree with me, and
wish you and you family a Blessed Life.
Thank you, and may you experience the blessings of my God as well.
Who is your God?
Remember the Holy Bible is
History - HIS STORY
and the most widely distributed Book in the World!
How did it get to be so? IT"S THE TRUTH and also the SPIRIT of GOD!
You be the Judge!
It is the words of men about God, proclaimed to be "The Truth" by men,
and published and promoted by men. God Himself does not endorse it.
Can you explain the far greater percentages of the Bible Code groupings
(Prophecies) in the TORAH (first four books of the Bible in Hebrew)
then other books of similar size?
If not why wouldn't you consider that a sort of proof in itself?
m
.
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| User: "William T. Goat" |
|
| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
07 Oct 2006 08:23:57 PM |
|
|
R.S. wrote:
(If you really want to experience what GOD has for your Life,
Pray outloud in JESUS Name that GOD'S WILL be Done on Earth as it is in
Heaven (GOD'S WILL is identified in the Holy Bible and you have the
right to Claim anything that GOD has written in the Bible for yourself
and others - read outloud the exact Bible verse you are claiming)
Luke 14:26
"If any man comes to me and does not HATE his father, mother, brothers
and sisters, and even himself, he cannot be my disciple."
I pray in JESUS'S name that God will help me HATE the people He wants
me to HATE.
Amen.
--Billy
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| User: "SeppoP" |
|
| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
06 Oct 2006 12:15:16 AM |
|
|
gatekeeper wrote:
SeppoP wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
SeppoP wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Mark Nutter wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Free Lunch wrote,
"I am asking for evidence to support the claim that one or more gods
exist and furthermore what evidence can you point to that the
particular
god that you believe in exists"
This thread was started to answer Free Lunch's questions as restated
above, and my answer simply follows -
Let's review the prophecy I made on Oct. 3rd, shall we? I said:
Let's see if I can prophesy. You're going to offer something that isn't
really verifiable evidence of God, something that any fallible mortal
could claim about any god or gods, and then you're going to pull an
"Emperor's New Clothes" schtick, claiming that anybody who doesn't
believe your evidence is "spiritually blind" or otherwise lacking some
virtue that (you claim) would cause them to accept your evidence as
valid.
Ok, now let's take a look at Gatekeeper's answer, which I predicted
would be "evidence" that didn't really verify His God and that could be
claimed as evidence of any god, with the same (lack of) validity:
You are the evidence that there is one God, only one God, and that this
God is the one God that I believe exists, and is revealed by Jesus, and
the Holy Spirit!
Hey, did I call it, or did I call it? People exist. (Well, duh, of
course people exist, otherwise we wouldn't be here talking about God.)
So that's supposed to be evidence of the Trinity, even though it could
just as easily be evidence of Ahura Mazda, or Zeus, or Thor, or The
Amazing Vegetable Mother, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Gaia or
... (etc, etc.).
Admit it, GK: my prophecy came true *exactly*. You even knew about it
beforehand, and you still couldn't stop yourself from fulfilling it.
As a witness, I have testified of the evidence that I have, it is up to
you to weigh the evidence, as to whether what I say is true or not!
Weigh carefully, for it is your own souls that are in the balance!
According to the traditions of men, at least. Will you repent now that
you have seen the sign of my prophecy coming true?
m
<snip same old, same old, mindless blather>
Gatekeeper
I think I can safely end my wait with bated breath...
--
Seppo P.
What's wrong with Theocracy? (a Finnish Taliban, Oct 1, 2005)
Yes it is time to wake up! A little sleep, a little slumber, a little
folding of the hands! Then shall the Kingdom overtake you, you shall
see Him, Face to face!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
Probably not, With all *due* respect, you seem to be just another airhead among the thousands...
--
Seppo P.
What's wrong with Theocracy? (a Finnish Taliban, Oct 1, 2005)
And so you will have no excuse when you see Him, for you have had many
opportunities to acknowledge Him! However it is still not to late! God
loves you!
I *really* cannot understand why *I* should worry about demons buzzing in *your* empty head.
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
--
Seppo P.
What's wrong with Theocracy? (a Finnish Taliban, Oct 1, 2005)
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| User: "Ye Old One" |
|
| Title: Re: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
04 Oct 2006 06:08:23 PM |
|
|
On 4 Oct 2006 15:51:11 -0700, "Mark Nutter" <manutter51@yahoo.com>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Free Lunch wrote,
"I am asking for evidence to support the claim that one or more gods
exist and furthermore what evidence can you point to that the
particular
god that you believe in exists"
This thread was started to answer Free Lunch's questions as restated
above, and my answer simply follows -
Let's review the prophecy I made on Oct. 3rd, shall we? I said:
Let's see if I can prophesy. You're going to offer something that isn't
really verifiable evidence of God, something that any fallible mortal
could claim about any god or gods, and then you're going to pull an
"Emperor's New Clothes" schtick, claiming that anybody who doesn't
believe your evidence is "spiritually blind" or otherwise lacking some
virtue that (you claim) would cause them to accept your evidence as
valid.
Ok, now let's take a look at Gatekeeper's answer, which I predicted
would be "evidence" that didn't really verify His God and that could be
claimed as evidence of any god, with the same (lack of) validity:
You are the evidence that there is one God, only one God, and that this
God is the one God that I believe exists, and is revealed by Jesus, and
the Holy Spirit!
Hey, did I call it, or did I call it?
You called, you called it very well :)
People exist. (Well, duh, of
course people exist, otherwise we wouldn't be here talking about God.)
And people invented god(s).
So that's supposed to be evidence of the Trinity, even though it could
just as easily be evidence of Ahura Mazda, or Zeus, or Thor, or The
Amazing Vegetable Mother, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Gaia or
... (etc, etc.).
Admit it, GK: my prophecy came true *exactly*. You even knew about it
beforehand, and you still couldn't stop yourself from fulfilling it.
In some circles that would make you a god :)
As a witness, I have testified of the evidence that I have, it is up to
you to weigh the evidence, as to whether what I say is true or not!
Weigh carefully, for it is your own souls that are in the balance!
According to the traditions of men, at least. Will you repent now that
you have seen the sign of my prophecy coming true?
--
Bob.
.
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| User: "Kate" |
|
| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
04 Oct 2006 03:25:04 PM |
|
|
gatekeeper wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Free Lunch wrote:
On 26 Sep 2006 18:39:12 -0700, in talk.origins
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1159321152.634855.5970@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>:
Free Lunch wrote:
On 25 Sep 2006 22:19:06 -0700, in talk.origins
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1159247946.535119.12830@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>:
Free Lunch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:27:22 -0400, in talk.origins
"Dan Wood" <danwood34@gmail.com> wrote in
<2JYRg.13014$vi3.6750@bignews3.bellsouth.net>:
"Ye Old One" <usenet@mcsuk.net> wrote in message
news:oqgbh21v4ime03ug6hc62loq32vspgdvls@4ax.com...
On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:09:56 -0400, "Dan Wood" <danwood34@gmail.com>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:4515A889.6010901@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Dan Wood wrote:
[SNIPALOT]
No problem. I am a Christian, but I'm not a creationist. I believe
God
could
have created the universe, planets and life any way he chose. If he
chose
to create through evolution, who am I to dispute the evidence?
Dan Wood, DDS
===>That is a "goddidit" just the same,
though a move in the right direction.
You show that evolution and theism are not
totally incompatible, but do not show any value
to the pseudo-hypothesis of "God". -- L.
You have the right to believe anything that seems
reasonable and logical to you and I wish the best
for you. I hope for the same right for myself.
Until someone demonstrates that there is no God
I have no choice, but to accept God's existence
as a reality. Even so I have no imperative to
convince anyone of the validity of my position.
Dan
That is a slightly mad standpoint to take. Until there is some shread
of evidence for the existance of god(s) then the logical standpoint
woudl be to reject the concept of god(s).
There is evidence which I personally find satisfying.
But I have found that most skeptics demand proof
of God's existence before they are willing to consider
any evidence as potentially evidence for God.
IOW if there is any evidence which proves God
this evidence is inadmissible until God is shown
to exist.
And this, in my opinion, constitutes a hopeless catch - 22
situation.
It would be, if it were true. Offer the evidence. Let us be rational in
accepting it or rejecting it.
Part of the evidence is your inability to be rational, your rational
powers have been corrupted.
Please provide evidence to support your claim.
If the lense on the Hubble was out of
focus, the batteries all dead, would it affect your ability to observe
Andromeda? And yet Andromeda would still be there to be marveled at by
a child on a dark night using simple binoculars. How much more tragic,
that you a supposedly intelligent mature individual would not even lift
your eyes, less you see the stars for the first time, as if they could
not possibly exist.
So, you are back to unthinking assertions and unsupportable claims.
Lift up your eyes all you nations, the King of Kings has entered the
City of God!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
So you say, but when asked for help with the evidence, you insult those
who ask you.
I did not hear you asking for help with the evidence. What evidence
are you asking about?
I have asked for evidence to support the claim that "But I have found
that most skeptics demand proof of God's existence before they are
willing to consider any evidence as potentially evidence for God." You
responded with the utterly meaningless "Part of the evidence is your
inability to be rational, your rational powers have been corrupted."
What help are you desiring? If I missed your
question, I apologize, but as you know this is a very busy, noisy
street! Please restate your question, and I will try to listen better!
I am asking for evidence to support the claim that one or more gods
exist and furthermore what evidence can you point to that the particular
god that you believe in exists.
The Eastgate is open, The King is in residence! Whomsoever will may
come in!
Gatekeeper
I am very interested, and willing to answer your questions, but a few
things first!
First, you already have ask more than one question, so I need you to
further explain what is your question, or if you are asking more than
one, that is ok also. However I want you to be clear to yourself, me,
and others, what your questions are!
Second, what sincere response can I expect from you, to my answer. In
other words, is your question sincere, or just conversational. I will
be willing to answer your question either way, but that way there is no
unexpected response from you, that would surprise us both.
Third, I believe the more the merrier, so I would like to suggest that
I not actually answer this question until others who are also
interested, have opportunity to check in, and indicate their interest
as well. That way we can have a real party!
Fourth, in order to accomplish this I would like to move this
discussion to a new thread, that way the discussion is not just between
you and I, lost in this rather large thread!
In fact, I am going to copy your question to a new thread as soon as I
get done here, and then if others want to check in, they could post as
well, possibly indicating the nature of evidence that they would like
to see. That way we could most efficiently answer all of your
questions, and have a single thread to work with. I will have it set up
to cross post to all of the current threads that this thread goes to so
that no one is left out of this grand experiment.
If you have any other suggestions, I would be more than glad to
entertain them on this new thread. I would be prepared to give you an
answer in a week, today being 9/27, so that on 10/04, we could have
everyone happily gathered. If this is suitable to you, please let me
know, on the new thread. I will be looking for your response!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
Free Lunch wrote,
"I am asking for evidence to support the claim that one or more gods
exist and furthermore what evidence can you point to that the
particular
god that you believe in exists"
This thread was started to answer Free Lunch's questions as restated
above, and my answer simply follows -
You are the evidence that there is one God, only one God, and that this
God is the one God that I believe exists, and is revealed by Jesus, and
the Holy Spirit! This applies to you all as well, that ask this
question, and have so patiently waited for an answer, and even more so
to you all, for the evidence is even that much more multiplied by each
one of you!
As a witness, I have testified of the evidence that I have, it is up to
you to weigh the evidence, as to whether what I say is true or not!
Weigh carefully, for it is your own souls that are in the balance!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
Oh my - did you get that wrong. We are the evidence of the one and
only true god - the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And not only that, the
lack of pirates is too.
You had best weigh your silly god notions carefully - your soul is in
dire need of noodling and my evidence far exceeds yours.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Nosterill" |
|
| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
04 Oct 2006 04:59:56 AM |
|
|
gatekeeper wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Free Lunch wrote:
On 26 Sep 2006 18:39:12 -0700, in talk.origins
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1159321152.634855.5970@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>:
Free Lunch wrote:
On 25 Sep 2006 22:19:06 -0700, in talk.origins
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1159247946.535119.12830@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>:
Free Lunch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:27:22 -0400, in talk.origins
"Dan Wood" <danwood34@gmail.com> wrote in
<2JYRg.13014$vi3.6750@bignews3.bellsouth.net>:
"Ye Old One" <usenet@mcsuk.net> wrote in message
news:oqgbh21v4ime03ug6hc62loq32vspgdvls@4ax.com...
On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:09:56 -0400, "Dan Wood" <danwood34@gmail.com>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:4515A889.6010901@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Dan Wood wrote:
[SNIPALOT]
No problem. I am a Christian, but I'm not a creationist. I believe
God
could
have created the universe, planets and life any way he chose. If he
chose
to create through evolution, who am I to dispute the evidence?
Dan Wood, DDS
===>That is a "goddidit" just the same,
though a move in the right direction.
You show that evolution and theism are not
totally incompatible, but do not show any value
to the pseudo-hypothesis of "God". -- L.
You have the right to believe anything that seems
reasonable and logical to you and I wish the best
for you. I hope for the same right for myself.
Until someone demonstrates that there is no God
I have no choice, but to accept God's existence
as a reality. Even so I have no imperative to
convince anyone of the validity of my position.
Dan
That is a slightly mad standpoint to take. Until there is some shread
of evidence for the existance of god(s) then the logical standpoint
woudl be to reject the concept of god(s).
There is evidence which I personally find satisfying.
But I have found that most skeptics demand proof
of God's existence before they are willing to consider
any evidence as potentially evidence for God.
IOW if there is any evidence which proves God
this evidence is inadmissible until God is shown
to exist.
And this, in my opinion, constitutes a hopeless catch - 22
situation.
It would be, if it were true. Offer the evidence. Let us be rational in
accepting it or rejecting it.
Part of the evidence is your inability to be rational, your rational
powers have been corrupted.
Please provide evidence to support your claim.
If the lense on the Hubble was out of
focus, the batteries all dead, would it affect your ability to observe
Andromeda? And yet Andromeda would still be there to be marveled at by
a child on a dark night using simple binoculars. How much more tragic,
that you a supposedly intelligent mature individual would not even lift
your eyes, less you see the stars for the first time, as if they could
not possibly exist.
So, you are back to unthinking assertions and unsupportable claims.
Lift up your eyes all you nations, the King of Kings has entered the
City of God!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
So you say, but when asked for help with the evidence, you insult those
who ask you.
I did not hear you asking for help with the evidence. What evidence
are you asking about?
I have asked for evidence to support the claim that "But I have found
that most skeptics demand proof of God's existence before they are
willing to consider any evidence as potentially evidence for God." You
responded with the utterly meaningless "Part of the evidence is your
inability to be rational, your rational powers have been corrupted."
What help are you desiring? If I missed your
question, I apologize, but as you know this is a very busy, noisy
street! Please restate your question, and I will try to listen better!
I am asking for evidence to support the claim that one or more gods
exist and furthermore what evidence can you point to that the particular
god that you believe in exists.
The Eastgate is open, The King is in residence! Whomsoever will may
come in!
Gatekeeper
I am very interested, and willing to answer your questions, but a few
things first!
First, you already have ask more than one question, so I need you to
further explain what is your question, or if you are asking more than
one, that is ok also. However I want you to be clear to yourself, me,
and others, what your questions are!
Second, what sincere response can I expect from you, to my answer. In
other words, is your question sincere, or just conversational. I will
be willing to answer your question either way, but that way there is no
unexpected response from you, that would surprise us both.
Third, I believe the more the merrier, so I would like to suggest that
I not actually answer this question until others who are also
interested, have opportunity to check in, and indicate their interest
as well. That way we can have a real party!
Fourth, in order to accomplish this I would like to move this
discussion to a new thread, that way the discussion is not just between
you and I, lost in this rather large thread!
In fact, I am going to copy your question to a new thread as soon as I
get done here, and then if others want to check in, they could post as
well, possibly indicating the nature of evidence that they would like
to see. That way we could most efficiently answer all of your
questions, and have a single thread to work with. I will have it set up
to cross post to all of the current threads that this thread goes to so
that no one is left out of this grand experiment.
If you have any other suggestions, I would be more than glad to
entertain them on this new thread. I would be prepared to give you an
answer in a week, today being 9/27, so that on 10/04, we could have
everyone happily gathered. If this is suitable to you, please let me
know, on the new thread. I will be looking for your response!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
Free Lunch wrote,
"I am asking for evidence to support the claim that one or more gods
exist and furthermore what evidence can you point to that the
particular
god that you believe in exists"
This thread was started to answer Free Lunch's questions as restated
above, and my answer simply follows -
You are the evidence that there is one God, only one God, and that this
God is the one God that I believe exists, and is revealed by Jesus, and
the Holy Spirit! This applies to you all as well, that ask this
question, and have so patiently waited for an answer, and even more so
to you all, for the evidence is even that much more multiplied by each
one of you!
As a witness, I have testified of the evidence that I have, it is up to
you to weigh the evidence, as to whether what I say is true or not!
Weigh carefully, for it is your own souls that are in the balance!
Is that it????? No evidence - just an appeal to faith?
.
|
|
|
| User: "gatekeeper" |
|
| Title: Re: Gatekeeper to offer evidence of God on 10/4 Bring your questions |
04 Oct 2006 07:50:51 PM |
|
|
Nosterill wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Free Lunch wrote:
On 26 Sep 2006 18:39:12 -0700, in talk.origins
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1159321152.634855.5970@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>:
Free Lunch wrote:
On 25 Sep 2006 22:19:06 -0700, in talk.origins
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1159247946.535119.12830@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>:
Free Lunch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:27:22 -0400, in talk.origins
"Dan Wood" <danwood34@gmail.com> wrote in
<2JYRg.13014$vi3.6750@bignews3.bellsouth.net>:
"Ye Old One" <usenet@mcsuk.net> wrote in message
news:oqgbh21v4ime03ug6hc62loq32vspgdvls@4ax.com...
On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:09:56 -0400, "Dan Wood" <danwood34@gmail.com>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:4515A889.6010901@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Dan Wood wrote:
[SNIPALOT]
No problem. I am a Christian, but I'm not a creationist. I believe
God
could
have created the universe, planets and life any way he chose. If he
chose
to create through evolution, who am I to dispute the evidence?
Dan Wood, DDS
===>That is a "goddidit" just the same,
though a move in the right direction.
You show that evolution and theism are not
totally incompatible, but do not show any value
to the pseudo-hypothesis of "God". -- L.
You have the right to believe anything that seems
reasonable and logical to you and I wish the best
for you. I hope for the same right for myself.
Until someone demonstrates that there is no God
I have no choice, but to accept God's existence
as a reality. Even so I have no imperative to
convince anyone of the validity of my position.
Dan
That is a slightly mad standpoint to take. Until there is some shread
of evidence for the existance of god(s) then the logical standpoint
woudl be to reject the concept of god(s).
There is evidence which I personally find satisfying.
But I have found that most skeptics demand proof
of God's existence before they are willing to consider
any evidence as potentially evidence for God.
IOW if there is any evidence which proves God
this evidence is inadmissible until God is shown
to exist.
And this, in my opinion, constitutes a hopeless catch - 22
situation.
It would be, if it were true. Offer the evidence. Let us be rational in
accepting it or rejecting it.
Part of the evidence is your inability to be rational, your rational
powers have been corrupted.
Please provide evidence to support your claim.
If the lense on the Hubble was out of
focus, the batteries all dead, would it affect your ability to observe
Andromeda? And yet Andromeda would still be there to be marveled at by
a child on a dark night using simple binoculars. How much more tragic,
that you a supposedly intelligent mature individual would not even lift
your eyes, less you see the stars for the first time, as if they could
not possibly exist.
So, you are back to unthinking assertions and unsupportable claims.
Lift up your eyes all you nations, the King of Kings has entered the
City of God!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
So you say, but when asked for help with the evidence, you insult those
who ask you.
I did not hear you asking for help with the evidence. What evidence
are you asking about?
I have asked for evidence to support the claim that "But I have found
that most skeptics demand proof of God's existence before they are
willing to consider any evidence as potentially evidence for God." You
responded with the utterly meaningless "Part of the evidence is your
inability to be rational, your rational powers have been corrupted."
What help are you desiring? If I missed your
question, I apologize, but as you know this is a very busy, noisy
street! Please restate your question, and I will try to listen better!
I am asking for evidence to support the claim that one or more gods
exist and furthermore what evidence can you point to that the particular
god that you believe in exists.
The Eastgate is open, The King is in residence! Whomsoever will may
come in!
Gatekeeper
I am very interested, and willing to answer your questions, but a few
things first!
First, you already have ask more than one question, so I need you to
further explain what is your question, or if you are asking more than
one, that is ok also. However I want you to be clear to yourself, me,
and others, what your questions are!
Second, what sincere response can I expect from you, to my answer. In
other words, is your question sincere, or just conversational. I will
be willing to answer your question either way, but that way there is no
unexpected response from you, that would surprise us both.
Third, I believe the more the merrier, so I would like to suggest that
I not actually answer this question until others who are also
interested, have opportunity to check in, and indicate their interest
as well. That way we can have a real party!
Fourth, in order to accomplish this I would like to move this
discussion to a new thread, that way the discussion is not just between
you and I, lost in this rather large thread!
In fact, I am going to copy your question to a new thread as soon as I
get done here, and then if others want to check in, they could post as
well, possibly indicating the nature of evidence that they would like
to see. That way we could most efficiently answer all of your
questions, and have a single thread to work with. I will have it set up
to cross post to all of the current threads that this thread goes to so
that no one is left out of this grand experiment.
If you have any other suggestions, I would be more than glad to
entertain them on this new thread. I would be prepared to give you an
answer in a week, today being 9/27, so that on 10/04, we could have
everyone happily gathered. If this is suitable to you, please let me
know, on the new thread. I will be looking for your response!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence! Whomsoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
Free Lunch wrote,
"I am aski | | |
