Religions > Atheism > Re: Gay Marriage Ban wins handily in all 11 states where it is on the ballot
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
08 Nov 2004 02:58:17 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Gay Marriage Ban wins handily in all 11 states where it is on the ballot |
"Nathan A. Barclay" <nbarclay@hiwaay.net> wrote:
:|Do you realize that what you are demanding with regard to insurance is that
:|homosexual couples be given a financial advantage over single people? In my
:|view, such a position goes against MY right to the equal protection of the
:|laws. I'm willing to accept special benefits for heterosexual married
:|couples because of the special ties between heterosexual relationships,
:|reproduction, and child-rearing. But I see no similar reason why we should
:|provide homosexual couples with financial advantages over single people.
:|
Ahhhh, you are here too, huh?
Here, some data for you.
(Someone had said)
:|Homosexuals have the same civil rights as anyone else.
:|
(I replied)
Not true.
You really should get your facts straight before you go off making
statements that are false.
But the following are actual facts of the situation.
Discrimination is based a person or persons being denied the rights that
others receive, and to which they too are entitled, and this denial is
based entirely on the way this person or person's are perceived to be
"different" or are in fact different then those who are not denied those
rights.
Homosexuals are discriminated against because they are homosexual, or in
many cases a person who may or may not be homosexual is perceived to be
homosexual.
The marriage laws are only one area that such takes place.
The fact is, the documented evidence showing that actual homosexuals and
people "thought" to be homosexual are discriminated against, and
discriminated against solely because they are or have been said to be
homosexual, and no other reason, is pretty tremendous. There is quite a bit
of it.
The book SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND THE LAW, says the following about
employment:
Under public employment it begins with the following:
"Gay men and lesbians face discrimination in three major areas of public
employment: Military employment, employment in jobs that require security
clearances, employment in civil service"
Under private employment it begins with the following:
"Nearly one-third of all gay men surveyed report being discriminated
against in some form on the job, and seventeen percent report having lost
or having been denied employment because they were gay. Similarity, nearly
one-quarter of lesbians surveyed report that they have been discriminated
against in the workforce. Despite this widespread discrimination, legal
protection for gay men and lesbians in the private sector remains largely
nonexistent."
At another point it states:
"No court has held that dismissals based on an employee's sexual
orientation violate public policy."
If it doesn't violate public policy it isn't illegal in essence.
(SOURCE OF LIST: SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND THE LAW, By the Editors of the
Harvard Law Review. Harvard University Press (1989)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suppose one could go to great lengths to define each and every right that
has been legally accepted as a right in this country. Then see if any
evidence can be dug up that shows such a right has been violated with
regard to someone who is homosexual. Then go to great lengths to show that
such a right was in fact violated and the person was denied because of them
being homosexual, and then you would still say, *Nobody has convinced me
that any rights were violated* just like you used to like to use that
statement to dismiss all the arguments presented by others in the area of
School prayer, etc.
Does a person have a right to their life?
Legally speaking, YES! "Life, liberty, and...".
Yet there have been homosexuals who have had their life ripped from them,
because and only because they were homosexual
Does a person have a right to work?
Legally speaking, YES! Right to work laws have proven that fact, a person
has a right to work, and they don't have to join a union, or pay union
dues, etc., to have that right to work
There are many, many examples of Homosexuals being denied the right to
work, simply because they are homosexual
The facts are, there are many, many examples of homosexuals being
discriminated against and being discriminated against simply because of
what they are, not what they do.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Constitutional Rights
Rights are also classified in constitutional law as natural, civil, and
political, to which there is sometimes added the class of "personal
rights."
Natural rights are those which grow out of the nature of man and depend
upon personality, as distinguished from such as are created by law and
depend upon civilized society; or they are those which are plainly assured
by natural law; or those which, by fair deduction from the present
physical, moral, social, and religious characteristics of man, he must be
invested with, and which he ought to have realized for him in a jural
society, in order to fulfill the ends to which his nature calls him. Such
are the rights of life, liberty, privacy, and good reputation.
Civil rights are such as belong to every citizen of the state or country,
or, in a wider sense, to all its inhabitants, and are not connected with
the organization or administration of government. They include the rights
of property, marriage, equal protection of the laws, freedom of contract,
trial by jury, etc. Or, as otherwise defined, civil rights are rights
appertaining to a person by virtue of his citizenship in a state or
community. Such term may also refer, in its very general
sense, to rights capable of being enforced or redressed in a civil action.
Also, a term applied to certain rights secured to citizens of the United
States by the Thirteenth and Fourteenth amendments to the Constitution, and
by various acts of Congress (e.g. Civil Rights Acts) made in pursuance
thereof. See Bill of rights; Civil liberties; Civil Rights Acts.
Political rights consist in the power to participate, directly or
indirectly, in the establishment or administration of government, such as
the right of citizenship, that of suffrage, the right to
hold public office, and the right of petition.
Personal rights is a term of rather vague import, but generally it may be
said to mean the right of personal security, comprising those of life,
limb, body, health, reputation, and the right of personal liberty.
(BLACK'S LAW DICTIONARY, abridged sixth edition Centennial Edition
(1891-1991) West Publishing Co St Paul, Minn. (1991) pp 920 )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional areas not listed above where homosexuals are routinely
discriminated against are:
The criminal justice system
Public schools
(as students)
(as members of staff or faculty)
Same-Sex couples and the law
(marry)
(private law benefits)
Family issues involving children
(custody and visitation)
(adoption and foster care)
(procreation and parenting)
Other Discrimination Issues
(immigration and deportation)
(insurance)
(incorporation and tax exemption)
(local legislation)
(public accommodations)
(SOURCE OF LIST: SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND THE LAW, By the Editors of the
Harvard Law Review. Harvard University Press (1989)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ someone else wrote ]
:|>To say that you have to be straight to be married by the government is
:|>incredibly arbitrary.
:|
[ OrionCA <orionca@earthlink.net> wrote: ]
:|So are most things required by the government. Look in the dictionary
:|under "arbitrary" and it should say something about "government".
:|
:|The fact is that government recognizes marriage between heterosexuals
:|because stable family units are seen as a benefit to society. Back
:|when this controversy flared up I began asked these groups, "What is
:|the benefit to society of recognizing homosexual marriage?" I have
:|yet to hear back on that.
[ ]
You have that somewhat incorrect.
If you are going to apply compelling interest it applies against the state,
the state has to show a compelling interest why they should not allow
something, not the other way around.
What benefits, to the state, are you claiming exist in a heterosexual civil
contractual marriage but would be absent in a same sex civil contractual
marriage?
If you can think of none, your question is irrelevant.
A benefit to society which is the wrong standard to begin with can be
answered as follows
Justice, as in equal civil rights for all not just straights.
It would move on step closer to living up to this
" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to
secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their
just powers from the consent of the governed, . . . "
and this
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and
of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law
which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United
States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its
jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
and this
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loving v. Virginia (1967)
http://atheism.about.com/library/decisions/privacy/bldec_LovingVA.htm
Although the State also argued that they have a valid role in regulating
marriage as a social institution, the Court rejected the notion that the
State's powers here were limitless. Instead, the Court found the
institution of marriage, while social in nature, is also a basic civil
right and cannot be restricted without very good reason:
Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our
very existence and survival. (Skinner v. Oklahoma) ...To deny this
fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial
classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly
subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth
Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without
due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of
choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations.
Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of
another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the
State.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
". . . We are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the
basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the
very existence and survival of the race. . . "
Skinner v. Oklahoma ex rel. Williamson, 316 U.S. 535 (1942)
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/skinner.html
http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/354/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of
law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The
freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal
rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.
Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very
existence and survival. To deny this fundamental freedom on so
unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these
statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of
equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all
the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth
Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by
invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to
marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual
and cannot be infringed by the State.
These convictions must be reversed.
LOVING v. VIRGINIA U.S. 388 U.S. 1 (1967)
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/loving.html
******************************************************************************
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Gay Marriage Ban wins handily in all 11 states where it is on the ballot |
08 Nov 2004 05:54:56 PM |
|
|
"Nathan A. Barclay" <nbarclay@hiwaay.net> wrote:
:|Do you realize that what you are demanding with regard to insurance is that
:|homosexual couples be given a financial advantage over single people? In my
:|view, such a position goes against MY right to the equal protection of the
:|laws. I'm willing to accept special benefits for heterosexual married
:|couples because of the special ties between heterosexual relationships,
:|reproduction, and child-rearing. But I see no similar reason why we should
:|provide homosexual couples with financial advantages over single people.
One problem, spanky.
Sterile people get married.
People past child-bearing age get married.
People phyiscally incapable of sexual relations get married.
There is no legal requirement in any state for fertility. Or for the
intent to raise children.
Then again, ever hear of adoption and artificial insemination? Gat
couples do have kids, the same way infertile heterosexual couples have
them.
(BTW, I'm married and sterile.)
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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