| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Kenny Leong" |
| Date: |
21 Aug 2003 08:53:30 PM |
| Object: |
Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
(Truth Hunter) wrote in message news:<e164e783.0308101615.5a3d9f84@posting.google.com>...
God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !
Well, christians believe that 1) god is all-knowing. 2) god is a
perfect designer. 3) god is a perfect planner.
Combine all three attributes above and consider the following
things...
First...according to christians, there was no earth, and no people
before 'god' created the earth and people. Therefore, people did not
exist physically exist.
If people did not physically exist, then here's big question for the
christians. The question is ... if god is a all-knowing, perfect
designer, and perfect planner, then could god possibly make a product
that does something unexpected (in god's view)? If god CAN make a
product that does something unexpected to god (such as the product has
true free-will), then it means that god is not all-knowing, and god is
not a perfect designer, and god is not a perfect planner.
If god CANNOT make a product that does something unexpected, then it
means that god is all-knowing, and god is a perfect designer, and also
a perfect planner. This means that a all-knowing, perfect designer,
and perfect planner cannot make a product with free-will. If certain
folks insist that 'god' can make a product with free-will, then
there's a fatal violation of just three of god's fundamental
attributes.
So ... relating this to the apple. If some folks reckon that god is
all-knowing, a perfect designer, and perfect planner, then it was god
that created every single event by perfect all-knowing design and
planning..including the apple, and what adam and eve were going to do
etc. Every single mechanical action for adam and eve was designed and
planned by god with perfect knowledge in advance of adam and eve's
physical creation. Given this situation, there's no way that god could
become upset, sad, or angry about his/her/it's perfectly sequenced
future events.
Kenny L.
So...if god is a all-knowing, perfect designer, and perfect planner,
then any future
.
|
|
| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
26 Aug 2003 08:09:52 AM |
|
|
(Kix Adams) wrote in message news:<6ee1b361.0308251002.64f4c9b@posting.google.com>...
kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com (Kenny Leong) wrote in message news:<29154d7c.0308240713.45bd9f39@posting.google.com>...
That's the fatal flaw in the bible. There's no way that a all-knowing,
perfect designing, and perfect planner can create a product that does
something unexpected. That is, such a entity cannot make a product
with free-will.
There's no way? Or perhaps it's just that you cannot comprehend how it
can be so? God has been questioned and denounced by some of the most
educated and intelligent men on earth and the reason is that none of
them could grasp from the beginning is that He is God. He does not
exist by the same rules of logic that we do. If God created every
animal, insect, fish and plant on earth, why do you doubt that he
could create a man who's decisions are his own to make?
Not at all. I comprehend the situation perfectly. It is you that
doesn't comprehend the situation. Well, I'm one of the intelligent
folks on earth..definitely not the most intelligent, but intelligent
enough to understand basic logic. If you throw logic out the window,
then you become illogical, which means that you'd be back in the
stone-ages.
Well, if you believe that god does not exist in the same logic that we
do, then please do not say that your god knows everything, and please
don't say that your god is a perfect designer and planner. As I said,
there is no way that a all-knowing, perfect designing and perfect
planning entity can LATER make a product that does something
unexpected. For IF the product does something unexpected, then 'god'
wouldn't be all-knowing, and perfect designing, and perfect planning.
By telling us that our 'minds' are too simple to understand how god
could be all-knowing, and then later create a product that has
free-will is simply a huge insult to your intelligence. You should
realise that a all-knowing god does not need to ever judge his/her/its
product, because he/she/it knows every single thing that the product
will ever do in advance.... NOT by predicting perfectly what the
product will do...but having chosen every single fundamental
MECHANICAL ACTION for the product in advance.
Now let me ask you a simple question. Is it possible that god did NOT
YET design and plan his/her/its product all-knowingly? By your
definition, the answer is YES..it is possible. Therefore if this is
possible, then it becomes IMPOSSIBLE that god knew every single thing
about his/her/it's product ... and thus god would not be all-knowing,
and would not be a perfect designer, and would not be a perfect
planner. This simply shows that the bible is fatally flawed.
Kenny L.
If God had not planned us using his all knowing and intelligent design
he would not have given us free will and you would not have had the
ability to question his existence. Should I, at this point, remind you
who the master of confusion and chaos is?
You didn't answer my simple question above. It shows that you are
clearly avoiding the question because you understand the fatal flaw
that I described to you. Don't try to divert attention away from my
question by not answering it..especially by asking me some irrelevant
question.
I ask you once again. If the product does not yet physically exist,
and god then decides to make the product, THEN ..... does god
perfectly design and plan every single MECHANICAL ACTION for that
product with full knowledge BEFORE this product even physically
exists? Go ahead...answer that.
Let me tell you that the answer is automatic. If you say 'yes'...then
it means that 'god' is a all-knowing, perfect designer and planner.
This automatically means that the product can have no free-will,
because all the mechanical actions had been chosen already by god.
If you answer 'no', then it simply means that all mechanical actions
for the product had not been designed and planned perfectly by god
with full knowledge. This means that 'god' is NOT all-knowing, and is
not a perfect designer, and not a perfect planner - which severely
contradicts your belief that god is a all-knowing, perfect designer
and perfect planner.
Kenny L.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "BDK" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
26 Aug 2003 12:47:25 AM |
|
|
In article <6ee1b361.0308251002.64f4c9b@posting.google.com>,
okkix@juno.com says...
kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com (Kenny Leong) wrote in message news:<29154d7c.0308240713.45bd9f39@posting.google.com>...
That's the fatal flaw in the bible. There's no way that a all-knowing,
perfect designing, and perfect planner can create a product that does
something unexpected. That is, such a entity cannot make a product
with free-will.
There's no way? Or perhaps it's just that you cannot comprehend how it
can be so? God has been questioned and denounced by some of the most
educated and intelligent men on earth and the reason is that none of
them could grasp from the beginning is that He is God. He does not
exist by the same rules of logic that we do. If God created every
animal, insect, fish and plant on earth, why do you doubt that he
could create a man who's decisions are his own to make?
Now let me ask you a simple question. Is it possible that god did NOT
YET design and plan his/her/its product all-knowingly? By your
definition, the answer is YES..it is possible. Therefore if this is
possible, then it becomes IMPOSSIBLE that god knew every single thing
about his/her/it's product ... and thus god would not be all-knowing,
and would not be a perfect designer, and would not be a perfect
planner. This simply shows that the bible is fatally flawed.
Kenny L.
If God had not planned us using his all knowing and intelligent design
he would not have given us free will and you would not have had the
ability to question his existence. Should I, at this point, remind you
who the master of confusion and chaos is?
Uhhmmm, I'm guessing it's another of those whacky characters in the
bible?? Free will is just more tap dancing trying to get a nonsensical
religion to "make sense". It's not going to happen...
BDK
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
24 Aug 2003 09:37:30 AM |
|
|
On 23 Aug 2003 10:54:31 -0700, (Kenny Leong)
wrote:
If people did not physically exist, then here's big question for the
christians. The question is ... if god is a all-knowing, perfect
designer, and perfect planner, then could god possibly make a product
that does something unexpected (in god's view)?
Good grief - you are eons behind in the conversation.
If god CAN make a
product that does something unexpected to god (such as the product has
true free-will), then it means that god is not all-knowing, and god is
not a perfect designer, and god is not a perfect planner.
He wanted free will, not robots.
Not years behind..but years ahead actually.
Ah, you misunderstood. I meant this thread. No the subject matter.
As far as being ahead in understanding, that debatable and to be
determined.
You forget that before
humans can even exist physically, then there's no way that 'god' could
ever design and plan humans to so something unexpected - especially to
make god sad, angry, disappointed, or even upset.
Why not? God doesn't want yes-robots. He wanted his creation to love
and accept him by free choice, not by electronic circuitry.
Because if god could
do make a product that does something unexpected, then god would not
be all-knowing, and god would not be a perfect designer, or a perfect
planner.
He wanted us to demonstrate love for him.
hat's because if your product doesn't yet exist, and you are
a all-knowing, perfect designer and perfect planner, then there is NO
WAY you'll be able to make a product that has free-will....because the
product doesn't even physically exist yet before you design and plan
every single one of its future mechanical actions.
You mean that God is limited like a man, and that he couldn't preplan
his eternal actions eons before.
See? You're miles behind.
Kenny L.
But you're miles behind even little ole me.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
24 Aug 2003 02:11:00 PM |
|
|
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<j0jhkv0cbtvnhl4c06v8qb850uuan2nj6g@4ax.com>...
You mean that God is limited like a man, and that he couldn't preplan
his eternal actions eons before.
No you dum dum. If your 'god' COULD pre-plan all actions eons before,
then it means that the future physical product (humans/earth etc) can
only do what 'god' had planned in every single one of its mechanical
actions. Therefore, once the physical product is made, then this
product executes those mechanical pre-planned actions perfectly. There
is no deviation from the pre-planned movements. For IF there is any
devation from the pre-planned movements, then god would not be
all-knowing, and god would not be a perfect designer, and god would
not be a perfect planner. See? You dum dum.
So, to make a future physical product just to 'see' what it does is
completely meaningless, because a all-knowing, perfect designer and
planner doesn't need to 'see' and 'check out' what it does.
See? You're miles behind.
Kenny L.
But you're miles behind even little ole me.
No...you're actually miles me and you didn't even know it until
now..which is very embarrassing for you.
Kenny L.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
24 Aug 2003 10:51:20 PM |
|
|
(Kenny Leong) wrote in message news:<29154d7c.0308241111.70de30b8@posting.google.com>...
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<j0jhkv0cbtvnhl4c06v8qb850uuan2nj6g@4ax.com>...
You mean that God is limited like a man, and that he couldn't preplan
his eternal actions eons before.
No you dum dum. If your 'god' COULD pre-plan all actions eons before,
then it means that the future physical product (humans/earth etc) can
only do what 'god' had planned in every single one of its mechanical
actions. Therefore, once the physical product is made, then this
product executes those mechanical pre-planned actions perfectly. There
is no deviation from the pre-planned movements. For IF there is any
devation from the pre-planned movements, then god would not be
all-knowing, and god would not be a perfect designer, and god would
not be a perfect planner. See? You dum dum.
So, to make a future physical product just to 'see' what it does is
completely meaningless, because a all-knowing, perfect designer and
planner doesn't need to 'see' and 'check out' what it does.
See? You're miles behind.
Kenny L.
But you're miles behind even little ole me.
No...you're actually miles me and you didn't even know it until
now..which is very embarrassing for you.
Excuse the typo ... put a 'behind' between miles and me in my line above.
Kenny L.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
25 Aug 2003 11:05:55 AM |
|
|
On 24 Aug 2003 12:11:00 -0700, (Kenny Leong)
wrote:
You mean that God is limited like a man, and that he couldn't preplan
his eternal actions eons before.
No you dum dum. If your 'god' COULD pre-plan all actions eons before,
then it means that the future physical product (humans/earth etc) can
only do what 'god' had planned in every single one of its mechanical
actions.
Now therein lies your error. Free choice and preplanned actions are
mutually exclusive. God gave us a free will, and that free will
allows us to say yes to him or no to him.
He does not interfer with our free choice.
So, to make a future physical product just to 'see' what it does is
completely meaningless, because a all-knowing, perfect designer and
planner doesn't need to 'see' and 'check out' what it does.
Hey, God is waiting on you to make up your mind what you consist of.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
26 Aug 2003 08:26:15 PM |
|
|
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<6uankv4jbpbcgnapt6gnrhod1su9f696ot@4ax.com>...
On 25 Aug 2003 23:25:42 -0700, (Kenny Leong)
wrote:
Now therein lies your error. Free choice and preplanned actions are
mutually exclusive. God gave us a free will, and that free will
allows us to say yes to him or no to him.
Gee..you doubly confirmed that you really are a dum dum. I'm glad that
you understand that free-choice and preplanned actions are mutually
exclusive though. That is a correct and logical statement.
I know it's a correct and logical statement, as is the case of my
correctness of all my statemnts. So let see what you have for calling
"others" dum dum's.
But...as I said, you dum dum... if god is all-knowing, and god is a
perfect designer, and god is a perfect planner, then god will have
all-knowingly designed and planned every single future mechanical
action for the product - BEFORE the product even 'physically' existed.
That conflicts with his desire for a being with the free will to elect
to follow him or to follow another God.
If the product doesn't yet physically exist, then you tell me (you dum
dum) how can that product make any choices by itself? (Remember..you
dum dum, that the product doesn't yet exist physically - so how can it
make choices before it physically exists?).
It's not called to make a choice before it is physically born onto
this earth.
So are you going to tell everybody here that if the product doesn't
yet exist, and ALSO 'god' DESIGNED and PLANNED the product (in
advance) with COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE OF EVERY SINGLE MOVEMENT FOR THAT
PRODUCT, then the product - once it has been created physically - can
do something DIFFERENT THAN WHAT GOD ALL-KNOWINGLY DESIGNED AND
PRE-PLANNED in the product's actions?
Why not? If the product is designed and planned, it is designed and
planned to respond to it's free will when it is placed on this earth.
Remember once again you dum dum...that god planned all-knowingly every
single future movement for the product before the product even exists
physically. I continue to repeat this because it doesn't seem to get
into that dum dum head of yours.
Uhhhhh no, actually not. He didn't plan any future movement. That
would violate free choice.
He does not interfer with our free choice.
Nonsense.
Do you sense your little charade starting to fall apart?
A all-knowing, perfect designing and perfect planning entity
can never make a product that does something on its own free-will,
Why not? God can do anything and everything he wants.
because all the actions of the product are pre-chosen ALL-KNOWINGLY
*BEFORE* the product even physically exists.
They are not pre-chosen. That would violate "free choice". They are
specifically designed to exhibit free choice, to sense right v wrong,
good v bad, love v hate, etc etc.
Basically, it is
meaningless for a all-knowing, perfect designer, and perfect planner
to 'test' its product, because there is nothing to test if you're an
all-knowing, perfect designer, and perfect planner.
You're right - no pretesting required. Full freedom of action ensured
for the future person.
The product just
does what you chose it to do. This means that the product's movements
are ACTUALLY god's OWN movements.
But that's where you blew it. You *assumed* free choice to
choose/reject God but with full restriction on free movement/free
thought.
No can do. Man is free to do and choose what he wants to do, no prior
plannning or stipulations.
Hey, God is waiting on you to make up your mind what you consist of.
No you dum dum. We're just seeing whether you can comprehend such a
simple fatal flaw in your own beliefs.
Now we see who the real dum dum is - YOU. I can't believe you
honestly thought that free will did not extend to free movement and
free decison also, other than to just electing God or not.
Shame, shame on you. Kenny L.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
All the nonsense you said above simply means that your god doesn't
know every thing then.... you dumdum. You just openly admitted to
everybody that god doesn't know everything....since god doesn't know
what choice that the future product will make BEFORE the product even
physically exists.
You're a really big dum dum.
Kenny L.
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
27 Aug 2003 07:29:21 AM |
|
|
On 26 Aug 2003 18:26:15 -0700, (Kenny Leong)
wrote:
All the nonsense you said above simply means that your god doesn't
know every thing then.... you dumdum.
Why not? Knowing and interferring are two different things.
You just openly admitted to
everybody that god doesn't know everything....since god doesn't know
what choice that the future product will make BEFORE the product even
physically exists.
Nope, I specifically said otherwise.
YOU don't know your final decision, but God does. However, God is not
the one that has to make the decision, but YOU.
What will be your final decision? Remember, you have to make one.
Silence is the same as a profession of no belief in God, a sure free
ticket on the downtown train.
Best of luck with your decision.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 07:32:24 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:16:18 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
YOU don't know your final decision, but God does. However, God is not
the one that has to make the decision, but YOU.
What will be your final decision? Remember, you have to make one.
Silence is the same as a profession of no belief in God, a sure free
ticket on the downtown train.
This makes no sense. Since your god already knows what my decision will be,
then there is no point to my mortal existence.
You're here because of your parents freely made choice to procreate.
You're a human being because God said that human beings would
procreate human beings and not lizards.
And you still have your final freely made choice to make.
Remember, your final freely made decision to accept or reject God
cannot be different from your final freely made decision.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Semler" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 01:20:58 PM |
|
|
At some point in the past, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> slavered, and
posted this:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:16:18 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
YOU don't know your final decision, but God does. However, God is
not the one that has to make the decision, but YOU.
What will be your final decision? Remember, you have to make one.
Silence is the same as a profession of no belief in God, a sure free
ticket on the downtown train.
This makes no sense. Since your god already knows what my decision
will be, then there is no point to my mortal existence.
You're here because of your parents freely made choice to procreate.
So? That doesn't answer the points I made. Since your god already knows
what my final decision is going to be, there is NO point for my mortal
existence, as he already KNOWS whether I am going to be going on the
downtown train or not.
You're a human being because God said that human beings would
procreate human beings and not lizards.
Of course. Your statement is silly. DNA compatibility determines what a
species is able to produce as offspring.
And you still have your final freely made choice to make.
To which your god already knows the answer. Which means there is no need
for a judge, because your god already knows whether I will choose or reject.
Which means it is predestined to which location (heaven or hell) I am going.
Which means I do not have free will, but the illusion of free will.
Remember, I cannot surprise your god.
Remember, your final freely made decision to accept or reject God
cannot be different from your final freely made decision.
Yet you didn't address any of my points. There is no need for a judgement
(Jesus). There
is no need for the sacrifice of Jesus to save me. Since it is known by your
god that I am going to get the "free ticket on the downtown train," his
knowledge is now predetermination of my course. I therefore have no free
will; I cannot change the course of future events (whether I go to heaven or
hell).
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 05:22:36 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:20:58 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
So? That doesn't answer the points I made. Since your god already knows
what my final decision is going to be, there is NO point for my mortal
existence, as he already KNOWS whether I am going to be going on the
downtown train or not.
Either way, you still have that big decision to make. Are you
starting to sweat it? Remember, he only knows if you screw yourself
or not. He doesn't interfer with it.
You're a human being because God said that human beings would
procreate human beings and not lizards.
Of course. Your statement is silly. DNA compatibility determines what a
species is able to produce as offspring.
If God wanted your parents to birth a lizard, your DNA would be for a
lizard.
And you still have your final freely made choice to make.
To which your god already knows the answer. Which means there is no need
for a judge, because your god already knows whether I will choose or reject.
He judges you anyway then you die. He wants you to know how bad you
screwed up. Eternal fire, my boy, or an eternity with him in the
kingdom.
Which means it is predestined to which location (heaven or hell) I am going.
Which means I do not have free will, but the illusion of free will.
Remember, I cannot surprise your god.
Remember, he is *already* not surprised. Oops, sorry to say it that
way.
Yet you didn't address any of my points. There is no need for a judgement
(Jesus). There
is no need for the sacrifice of Jesus to save me.
There never is for those that reject him. Jesus didn't come to save
everybody. Just those that elected his love.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
29 Aug 2003 03:21:24 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:24:55 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
Either way, you still have that big decision to make. Are you
starting to sweat it? Remember, he only knows if you screw yourself
or not. He doesn't interfer with it.
He knows if I'll choose him or not. Which means I only
have the ILLUSION of free will.
Oh, of course not selmer. You have a minimum of one free choice
coming to you right up to the moment of your death. God doesn't
interfer with your choice - so it's totally free.
What is your final free decision going to be?
He already knows the outcome, therefore the
outcome is predetermined. Unless of course, I can surprise God.
He only knows what you will finally decide with your last free choice.
If God wanted your parents to birth a lizard, your DNA would be for a
lizard.
That is also silly. My parents could no more produce a lizard than yours.
That's right. God said that human beings will procreate human beings.
But he easily could have decided on lizards instead. But he didn't.
Don't you see how silly this is? You are now saying that he tortures us.
Actually I visualize a cold, dark, damp, lonely place.
Yes. Exactly. Which means the choice has already been made.
Maybe you have made it. Maybe you'll change your mind 1000 times.
It's still your free choice. He doesn't interfer.
Let's say I
*know* that the final score of a baseball game played tomorrow will be 14-7.
But *you* don't know.
Yet you didn't address any of my points. There is no need for a
judgement (Jesus). There
is no need for the sacrifice of Jesus to save me.
There never is for those that reject him. Jesus didn't come to save
everybody. Just those that elected his love.
You don't get it. If God already knows which path will be taken by a
person, there is no need for the Savior.
But if your final free choice is God, you need the savior. For Christ
is the only way to the Father.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Semler" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
31 Aug 2003 11:52:13 PM |
|
|
At some point in the past, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> slavered, and
posted this:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:24:55 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
Either way, you still have that big decision to make. Are you
starting to sweat it? Remember, he only knows if you screw yourself
or not. He doesn't interfer with it.
He knows if I'll choose him or not. Which means I only
have the ILLUSION of free will.
Oh, of course not selmer. You have a minimum of one free choice
coming to you right up to the moment of your death. God doesn't
interfer with your choice - so it's totally free.
No, I have the illusion that the choice is free.
Let's lay this out logically:
Let "A" be "I choose God"
Let "B" be "I reject God"
Presupposition: My death is the point at which choices may no longer be
made.
Presupposition: A and B are mutually exclusive. If I choose A, B is
excluded; likewise if I choose B, A is excluded.
Presupposition: I *must* hold either position A or position B at all times
throughout my mortal existence.
Presupposition: The position I hold (A or B) at the moment of death is my
final choice.
Presupposition: I may switch between A and B an infinite number of times
before the moment of death, but changing positions have no bearing on the
final decision.
Here's the crux:
God knows that when I die, I hold position B.
Soooo, what is my final "freely" made decision?
It *must* be B, unless I can surprise God, and hold position A when I die.
And *THAT* negates free will. I can no more hold position A when I die (if
God knows that I hold position B when I die) than I can beam myself to the
Andromeda Galaxy. I have the illusion of choice, but since it has already
been determined that I will finally choose position B, position A is removed
from the equation, and is no longer an option.
You see, as I pointed out in another message in this thread, God isn't the
cause of predermination. However, his observations of the future are the
evidence of a predeterministic universe. Because his observations are
perfect, by definition, they must be correct. Therefore, by definition, if
god is a perfect omniscient being, then the universe is predetermined.
Therefore, I have no free will, only the illusion of free will, because in
actuality, all the choices have been made.
What is your final free decision going to be?
I don't know yet. Although I have a feeling it will be choice B.
He already knows the outcome, therefore the
outcome is predetermined. Unless of course, I can surprise God.
He only knows what you will finally decide with your last free choice.
It *still* doesn't change the fact that he already knows, according to you.
Therefore the choice *isn't* free. It is only an illusion.
If God wanted your parents to birth a lizard, your DNA would be for
a lizard.
That is also silly. My parents could no more produce a lizard than
yours.
That's right. God said that human beings will procreate human beings.
But he easily could have decided on lizards instead. But he didn't.
Whatever. That makes no sense, based on the knowledge of science and how
DNA combines in procreation. A more elegant proof of a god's existence
would be if humans actually DID produce lizards.
Don't you see how silly this is? You are now saying that he
tortures us.
Actually I visualize a cold, dark, damp, lonely place.
Well let's examine this in light of the statement you snipped, which is that
to which I was responding:
<unsnip>
He judges you anyway then you die. He wants you to know how bad you
screwed up. Eternal fire, my boy, or an eternity with him in the
kingdom.
<end unsnip>
First you say eternal fire, now you say cold, dark, and damp. Which is it?
And it still doesn't address the eternal torture for the insignificant
(timewise) existence on this piddlyassed backwater planet.
Yes. Exactly. Which means the choice has already been made.
Maybe you have made it. Maybe you'll change your mind 1000 times.
It's still your free choice. He doesn't interfer.
Don't you get it? It doesn't matter if I can flip flop an infinite amount
of times. Not only does your god know what the final decision is, he also
knows all the different choices in between. And because he knows before
hand what the choice is going to be, I cannot have free will to change that
final choice (or any choice in between) unless I am able to surprise your
god. Predestination and Free Will are mutually exclusive.
Let's say I
*know* that the final score of a baseball game played tomorrow will
be 14-7.
But *you* don't know.
It was a presupposition of the analogy I gave, which you, of course, snipped
and left unaddressed.
Yet you didn't address any of my points. There is no need for a
judgement (Jesus). There
is no need for the sacrifice of Jesus to save me.
There never is for those that reject him. Jesus didn't come to save
everybody. Just those that elected his love.
You don't get it. If God already knows which path will be taken by a
person, there is no need for the Savior.
But if your final free choice is God, you need the savior. For Christ
is the only way to the Father.
No, I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. Before Jesus came
along, the men of the world could either choose your god or reject your god.
It is the same state of affairs after Jesus came along. Your god already
knew/knows/will know which choices each and every man will make regarding
choosing or rejecting it. Therefore, Jesus is unnecessary for the
redemption of souls.
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
.
|
|
|
| User: "JessHC" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
01 Sep 2003 03:29:41 PM |
|
|
"Doug Semler" <doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote in message news:<pQKdnd3BK5fjTc-iXTWJkA@wideopenwest.com>...
<snip elegant arguments>
You see, as I pointed out in another message in this thread, God isn't the
cause of predermination. However, his observations of the future are the
evidence of a predeterministic universe. Because his observations are
perfect, by definition, they must be correct. Therefore, by definition, if
god is a perfect omniscient being, then the universe is predetermined.
Therefore, I have no free will, only the illusion of free will, because in
actuality, all the choices have been made.
<snip more elegant arguments>
I wish god had made ME this eloquent.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Semler" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 11:42:05 AM |
|
|
At some point in the past, JessHC <jesshc@phantomemail.com> slavered,
and posted this:
"Doug Semler" <doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote in message
news:<pQKdnd3BK5fjTc-iXTWJkA@wideopenwest.com>...
<snip elegant arguments>
You see, as I pointed out in another message in this thread, God
isn't the
cause of predermination. However, his observations of the future
are the
evidence of a predeterministic universe. Because his observations
are
perfect, by definition, they must be correct. Therefore, by
definition, if
god is a perfect omniscient being, then the universe is
predetermined.
Therefore, I have no free will, only the illusion of free will,
because in
actuality, all the choices have been made.
<snip more elegant arguments>
I wish god had made ME this eloquent.
God didn't make me eloquent, m'dear...a Catholic education did :).
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
01 Sep 2003 06:28:29 PM |
|
|
On 1 Sep 2003 13:29:41 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
"Doug Semler" <doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote in message news:<pQKdnd3BK5fjTc-iXTWJkA@wideopenwest.com>...
<snip elegant arguments>
You see, as I pointed out in another message in this thread, God isn't the
cause of predermination. However, his observations of the future are the
evidence of a predeterministic universe. Because his observations are
perfect, by definition, they must be correct. Therefore, by definition, if
god is a perfect omniscient being, then the universe is predetermined.
Therefore, I have no free will, only the illusion of free will, because in
actuality, all the choices have been made.
<snip more elegant arguments>
I wish god had made ME this eloquent.
douguise is an idiot of the nth degree.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Semler" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 11:41:05 AM |
|
|
At some point in the past, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> slavered, and
posted this:
On 1 Sep 2003 13:29:41 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
"Doug Semler" <doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote in
message news:<pQKdnd3BK5fjTc-iXTWJkA@wideopenwest.com>...
<snip elegant arguments>
You see, as I pointed out in another message in this thread, God
isn't the
cause of predermination. However, his observations of the future
are the
evidence of a predeterministic universe. Because his observations
are
perfect, by definition, they must be correct. Therefore, by
definition, if
god is a perfect omniscient being, then the universe is
predetermined.
Therefore, I have no free will, only the illusion of free will,
because in
actuality, all the choices have been made.
<snip more elegant arguments>
I wish god had made ME this eloquent.
douguise is an idiot of the nth degree.
Notice how duke doesn't address the point, but calls me an idiot.
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
.
|
|
|
| User: "Don" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 01:12:50 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:41:05 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
At some point in the past, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> slavered, and
posted this:
On 1 Sep 2003 13:29:41 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
"Doug Semler" <doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote in
message news:<pQKdnd3BK5fjTc-iXTWJkA@wideopenwest.com>...
<snip elegant arguments>
You see, as I pointed out in another message in this thread, God
isn't the
cause of predermination. However, his observations of the future
are the
evidence of a predeterministic universe. Because his observations
are
perfect, by definition, they must be correct. Therefore, by
definition, if
god is a perfect omniscient being, then the universe is
predetermined.
Therefore, I have no free will, only the illusion of free will,
because in
actuality, all the choices have been made.
<snip more elegant arguments>
I wish god had made ME this eloquent.
douguise is an idiot of the nth degree.
Notice how duke doesn't address the point, but calls me an idiot.
It happend more often than you would expect!
D*
"He's just one dog-faced-boy short of a freak-show."
- - anonymous
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
01 Sep 2003 12:12:49 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 00:52:13 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
Oh, of course not selmer. You have a minimum of one free choice
coming to you right up to the moment of your death. God doesn't
interfer with your choice - so it's totally free.
No, I have the illusion that the choice is free.
Let's lay this out logically:
Let "A" be "I choose God"
Let "B" be "I reject God"
Presupposition: My death is the point at which choices may no longer be
made.
Yep.
Presupposition: A and B are mutually exclusive. If I choose A, B is
excluded; likewise if I choose B, A is excluded.
Yep.
Presupposition: I *must* hold either position A or position B at all times
throughout my mortal existence.
Nope.
Presupposition: The position I hold (A or B) at the moment of death is my
final choice.
Yep.
Presupposition: I may switch between A and B an infinite number of times
before the moment of death, but changing positions have no bearing on the
final decision.
Yep.
Here's the crux:
God knows that when I die, I hold position B.
As long as you remember that *you* made that final decision.
Soooo, what is my final "freely" made decision?
B.
It *must* be B, unless I can surprise God, and hold position A when I die.
And *THAT* negates free will.
It must be B, because that is your final free choice.
You see, as I pointed out in another message in this thread, God isn't the
cause of predermination.
Not sure of what you're saying here, but ok.
However, his observations of the future are the
evidence of a predeterministic universe.
No it's not. Decisions you make are not predetermined.
What is your final free decision going to be?
I don't know yet. Although I have a feeling it will be choice B.
Maybe you should choose A. God would like that.
He already knows the outcome, therefore the
outcome is predetermined. Unless of course, I can surprise God.
He only knows what you will finally decide with your last free choice.
It *still* doesn't change the fact that he already knows, according to you.
Therefore the choice *isn't* free. It is only an illusion.
He only knows what final choice you will freely make.
That's right. God said that human beings will procreate human beings.
But he easily could have decided on lizards instead. But he didn't.
Whatever. That makes no sense, based on the knowledge of science and how
DNA combines in procreation. A more elegant proof of a god's existence
would be if humans actually DID produce lizards.
A lizard would be a whole lot less prone to say "no" to God than you.
Don't you get it? It doesn't matter if I can flip flop an infinite amount
of times. Not only does your god know what the final decision is, he also
knows all the different choices in between. And because he knows before
hand what the choice is going to be, I cannot have free will to change that
final choice (or any choice in between) unless I am able to surprise your
god. Predestination and Free Will are mutually exclusive.
You're *not* predestined.
No, I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. Before Jesus came
along, the men of the world could either choose your god or reject your god.
It is the same state of affairs after Jesus came along. Your god already
knew/knows/will know which choices each and every man will make regarding
choosing or rejecting it. Therefore, Jesus is unnecessary for the
redemption of souls.
Correction - he's the only way for those that select him.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Semler" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
01 Sep 2003 12:46:18 PM |
|
|
At some point in the past, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> slavered, and
posted this:
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 00:52:13 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
Oh, of course not selmer. You have a minimum of one free choice
coming to you right up to the moment of your death. God doesn't
interfer with your choice - so it's totally free.
No, I have the illusion that the choice is free.
Let's lay this out logically:
Let "A" be "I choose God"
Let "B" be "I reject God"
Presupposition: I *must* hold either position A or position B at all
times throughout my mortal existence.
Nope.
OK, what's the third choice? All I said was that a position must be
held...in other words there is no such thing as not holding a position.
Here's the crux:
God knows that when I die, I hold position B.
As long as you remember that *you* made that final decision.
My making the decision has no bearing on the fact that the decision is
already known, and has been known since before my existence. Therefore, my
final destination is already known as well, and my existence is pointless.
Regardless of my making choices bound by the time dimension, I only have
illusion of free will inside my perceived universe if there is knowledge
outside the time dimension. Because God is not limited by time, the final
decision I make while bounded in this time frame always had, always is, and
always will be the same.
Soooo, what is my final "freely" made decision?
It *must* be B, unless I can surprise God, and hold position A when
I die. And *THAT* negates free will.
It must be B, because that is your final free choice.
No, it must be "B" because the perfect knowledge of the choice exists.
You see, as I pointed out in another message in this thread, God
isn't the cause of predermination.
Not sure of what you're saying here, but ok.
Read on.
However, his observations of the future are the
evidence of a predeterministic universe.
No it's not. Decisions you make are not predetermined.
From other messages in this thread:
If you could travel to the future you might see that a friend buys a
new car in 5 years
time. Because you know he will buy the car does it mean you
predetermined that he would?
Of course not. That's not the point. You are actually introducing a false
cause into the argument. I would like to point out is that if one is able
to travel to the future and see events truely as they will happen, then a
predetermined universe already exists, regardless of anyone's ability to
travel to the future. The presence of an observer of future events is not
the cause of the predetermination of events. The presence of an observer
only validates the predetermination of the universe. A predetermined
universe negates the concept of free will, and only gives the participants
of the universe an illusion of free will. On the flip side, if you are able
to travel into the future, and see the event take place, and yet when the
future arrives, your friend does NOT buy the car, then predetermination does
not occur. However, in this case, it is obvious that I do not have perfect
knowledge of future events, because my friend was able to "surprise" me by
his choice of not buying the car.
Of course, it's theoretical...
However, I would like to add one more thing. Knowing how someone will
choose does not negate the fact that that person chose something. We are
talking two separate universes, one which is perceived by the chooser (who
is locked into a linear time dimension), and the universe which is perceived
by the observer (who is freely able to move in the chooser's time
dimension). To the chooser, he has made choices, is making choices, and
will make choices; these choices are done linearly along his time dimension.
However, to the observer, once the time of choice has been made, the choice
no longer exists. Because the observer also has freedom of movement within
time, it means the choice always will have been made. What I mean is that,
to the observer, time is irrelevant, ie past, present, and future tenses
regarding choices are meaningless. To an observer who can travel through
time, something that has happened is also something that is happening is
also something that will happen. The only dependency is upon where, in the
chooser's time dimension, the observer resides. This is the reason why I
stated that the chooser has the *illusion* of choice, when an observer is
present. The observer, in this case, has no bearing on the perceptions of
the chooser, because the chooser is *not* freely able to move within the
time dimension.
<snip ***** about humans producing lizards>
Don't you get it? It doesn't matter if I can flip flop an infinite
amount of times. Not only does your god know what the final
decision is, he also knows all the different choices in between.
And because he knows before hand what the choice is going to be, I
cannot have free will to change that final choice (or any choice in
between) unless I am able to surprise your god. Predestination and
Free Will are mutually exclusive.
You're *not* predestined.
The the fact that the knowledge exists means that we are predestined. Get
it through your thick skull, would you? It doesn't matter if god interferes
or not, because he knows, and has ALWAYS known, and ALWAYS WILL know what
the final decision will be/is/was, it means that the final decision has
already been made. Therefore, predestined.
No, I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. Before
Jesus came along, the men of the world could either choose your god
or reject your god. It is the same state of affairs after Jesus came
along. Your god already knew/knows/will know which choices each and
every man will make regarding choosing or rejecting it. Therefore,
Jesus is unnecessary for the redemption of souls.
Correction - he's the only way for those that select him.
Doesn't answer the point. Especially in light of the fact that the god is
all knowing about the choices humans before and after Jesus' arrival
made/are making/will make. Therefore, the savior is an unnecessary
irrelevancy.
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
01 Sep 2003 02:55:27 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:46:18 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
Let's lay this out logically:
Let "A" be "I choose God"
Let "B" be "I reject God"
Presupposition: I *must* hold either position A or position B at all
times throughout my mortal existence.
Nope.
OK, what's the third choice? All I said was that a position must be
held...in other words there is no such thing as not holding a position.
You "can" hold one position, you can change to another, and you can be
wishy washy and switch back and forth many times.
Why do you make the error of professing you can't change?
Here's the crux:
God knows that when I die, I hold position B.
As long as you remember that *you* made that final decision.
My making the decision has no bearing on the fact that the decision is
already known, and has been known since before my existence. Therefore, my
final destination is already known as well, and my existence is pointless.
The decision is already known, but not yet already made. You do that
yourself.
As far as your existance being pointless, there must be at least one
good thing you did for somebody else. So it's not pointless.
Because God is not limited by time, the final
decision I make while bounded in this time frame always had, always is, and
always will be the same.
Can't be. You have yet to make your final free choice.
Soooo, what is my final "freely" made decision?
It *must* be B, unless I can surprise God, and hold position A when
I die. And *THAT* negates free will.
It must be B, because that is your final free choice.
No, it must be "B" because the perfect knowledge of the choice exists.
No, it just means that your final decision, to burn or not to burn, is
yet to be made.
God doesn't interfer in your free decision.
From other messages in this thread:
I don't deal in other silly personage musings.
No, I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. Before
Jesus came along, the men of the world could either choose your god
or reject your god. It is the same state of affairs after Jesus came
along. Your god already knew/knows/will know which choices each and
every man will make regarding choosing or rejecting it. Therefore,
Jesus is unnecessary for the redemption of souls.
Correction - he's the only way for those that select him.
Doesn't answer the point. Especially in light of the fact that the god is
all knowing about the choices humans before and after Jesus' arrival
made/are making/will make. Therefore, the savior is an unnecessary
irrelevancy.
But your final free choice is Jesus oriented. So he is relevant.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Semler" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 11:37:32 AM |
|
|
At some point in the past, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> slavered, and
posted this:
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:46:18 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
Let's lay this out logically:
Let "A" be "I choose God"
Let "B" be "I reject God"
Presupposition: I *must* hold either position A or position B at
all times throughout my mortal existence.
Nope.
OK, what's the third choice? All I said was that a position must be
held...in other words there is no such thing as not holding a
position.
You "can" hold one position, you can change to another, and you can be
wishy washy and switch back and forth many times.
Why do you make the error of professing you can't change?
What part of either did you not understand, especially in light of the
presupposition in which I state that I can change my decision an infinite
number of times?
Here's the crux:
God knows that when I die, I hold position B.
As long as you remember that *you* made that final decision.
My making the decision has no bearing on the fact that the decision
is already known, and has been known since before my existence.
Therefore, my final destination is already known as well, and my
existence is pointless.
The decision is already known, but not yet already made. You do that
yourself.
No. Because the outcome of the decision is *perfectly* known, it is already
made.
As far as your existance being pointless, there must be at least one
good thing you did for somebody else. So it's not pointless.
You're taking the wrong meaning of pointless. The pointlessness I am
talking about is the fact that because God already knows what the decision
is going to be, there is no need for me to exist to make it. The existence
can be skipped, and I can go straight to heaven or hell.
Because God is not limited by time, the final
decision I make while bounded in this time frame always had, always
is, and always will be the same.
Can't be. You have yet to make your final free choice.
You don't understand what I said, do you? It's no wonder you don't
understand the argument presented to you.
Soooo, what is my final "freely" made decision?
It *must* be B, unless I can surprise God, and hold position A when
I die. And *THAT* negates free will.
It must be B, because that is your final free choice.
No, it must be "B" because the perfect knowledge of the choice
exists.
No, it just means that your final decision, to burn or not to burn, is
yet to be made.
No, because it has been made, because perfect knowledge of the decision is
known.
God doesn't interfer in your free decision.
That doesn't matter, outside my perception, the decision outcome is known.
Even though I don't know what choice I will make, the choice has been made
outside my time, evidenced by the fact that the outcome is already known.
From other messages in this thread:
I don't deal in other silly personage musings.
It was my deeper explanation of my position. I had a feeling you would snip
it, because they are completely relevant to the discussion.
No, I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. Before
Jesus came along, the men of the world could either choose your god
or reject your god. It is the same state of affairs after Jesus
came along. Your god already knew/knows/will know which choices
each and every man will make regarding choosing or rejecting it.
Therefore, Jesus is unnecessary for the redemption of souls.
Correction - he's the only way for those that select him.
Doesn't answer the point. Especially in light of the fact that the
god is all knowing about the choices humans before and after Jesus'
arrival made/are making/will make. Therefore, the savior is an
unnecessary irrelevancy.
But your final free choice is Jesus oriented. So he is relevant.
No no no, you misunderstand the point. Because god has perfect knowledge of
the choices which man made/are making/will be making both before and after
Jesus' arrival into our time frame, the savior figure is irrelevant inside
our time frame.
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 12:48:34 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:37:32 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
Let's lay this out logically:
Let "A" be "I choose God"
Let "B" be "I reject God"
Presupposition: I *must* hold either position A or position B at
all times throughout my mortal existence.
Nope.
OK, what's the third choice? All I said was that a position must be
held...in other words there is no such thing as not holding a
position.
You "can" hold one position, you can change to another, and you can be
wishy washy and switch back and forth many times.
Why do you make the error of professing you can't change?
What part of either did you not understand, especially in light of the
presupposition in which I state that I can change my decision an infinite
number of times?
Fox News repeated again this morning that Bush2 inherited a recession
from komrade klinton.
The decision is already known, but not yet already made. You do that
yourself.
No. Because the outcome of the decision is *perfectly* known, it is already
made.
It's very easy for God to know the future. And he never interferes.
As far as your existance being pointless, there must be at least one
good thing you did for somebody else. So it's not pointless.
You're taking the wrong meaning of pointless. The pointlessness I am
talking about is the fact that because God already knows what the decision
is going to be, there is no need for me to exist to make it. The existence
can be skipped, and I can go straight to heaven or hell.
You better sit down and catch your breath, dougidiot.
Soooo, what is my final "freely" made decision?
It *must* be B, unless I can surprise God, and hold position A when
I die. And *THAT* negates free will.
It must be B, because that is your final free choice.
No, it must be "B" because the perfect knowledge of the choice
exists.
No, it just means that your final decision, to burn or not to burn, is
yet to be made.
No, because it has been made, because perfect knowledge of the decision is
known.
No, you have yet to make the decision.
But your final free choice is Jesus oriented. So he is relevant.
No no no, you misunderstand the point. Because god has perfect knowledge of
the choices which man made/are making/will be making both before and after
Jesus' arrival into our time frame, the savior figure is irrelevant inside
our time frame.
Like the law, we are charged with what we do, not what we consider
doing.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Semler" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 04:57:16 PM |
|
|
At some point in the past, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> slavered, and
posted this:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:37:32 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
Let's lay this out logically:
Let "A" be "I choose God"
Let "B" be "I reject God"
Presupposition: I *must* hold either position A or position B at
all times throughout my mortal existence.
Nope.
OK, what's the third choice? All I said was that a position must
be held...in other words there is no such thing as not holding a
position.
You "can" hold one position, you can change to another, and you can
be wishy washy and switch back and forth many times.
Why do you make the error of professing you can't change?
What part of either did you not understand, especially in light of
the presupposition in which I state that I can change my decision an
infinite number of times?
Fox News repeated again this morning that Bush2 inherited a recession
from komrade klinton.
Oookaaaaay, maybe your cut-and-past didn't work quite right. I don't know
what you are talking about, nor how you can possibly say it has ANYTHING to
do with my point/question, or even this discussion.
The decision is already known, but not yet already made. You do
that yourself.
No. Because the outcome of the decision is *perfectly* known, it is
already made.
It's very easy for God to know the future. And he never interferes.
Step out of the sheltered existence in which you live for a minute.
Because the decision *I* make is already known to be made *by another*, *I*
have the illusion of the choice, but *to the other* the choice is no longer
an actual choice. The fact that another even has perfect knowledge of what
decision *I* make is interference in and of itself, because *I* can NOT make
a choice that is different from *the other's* perfect knowledge.
As far as your existance being pointless, there must be at least one
good thing you did for somebody else. So it's not pointless.
You're taking the wrong meaning of pointless. The pointlessness I am
talking about is the fact that because God already knows what the
decision is going to be, there is no need for me to exist to make
it. The existence can be skipped, and I can go straight to heaven
or hell.
You better sit down and catch your breath, dougidiot.
You don't understand a word I said, do you? Oh, no wonder, it deals with
logical reasoning.
Soooo, what is my final "freely" made decision?
It *must* be B, unless I can surprise God, and hold position A
when
I die. And *THAT* negates free will.
It must be B, because that is your final free choice.
No, it must be "B" because the perfect knowledge of the choice
exists.
No, it just means that your final decision, to burn or not to burn,
is yet to be made.
No, because it has been made, because perfect knowledge of the
decision is known.
No, you have yet to make the decision.
But the outcome of the decision is ALREADY known. It doesn't matter that
*I* haven't made the decision. The OUTCOME of the decision HAS BEEN KNOWN,
IS KNOWN, and HAS ALWAYS BEEN KNOWN.
But your final free choice is Jesus oriented. So he is relevant.
No no no, you misunderstand the point. Because god has perfect
knowledge of the choices which man made/are making/will be making
both before and after Jesus' arrival into our time frame, the savior
figure is irrelevant inside our time frame.
Like the law, we are charged with what we do, not what we consider
doing.
You don't understand your false analogy, do you? The reason is this: GOD
*ALREADY* knows the outcome. God has known the outcome all along.
Therefore, our considerations and decisions, whether final or intermediate,
are ALREADY KNOWN to God. Therefore, they are *ALREADY* factual.
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
03 Sep 2003 07:11:43 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:57:16 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
What part of either did you not understand, especially in light of
the presupposition in which I state that I can change my decision an
infinite number of times?
Fox News repeated again this morning that Bush2 inherited a recession
from komrade klinton.
Oookaaaaay, maybe your cut-and-past didn't work quite right. I don't know
what you are talking about, nor how you can possibly say it has ANYTHING to
do with my point/question, or even this discussion.
You keep repeating your same nonsense, so I thought I'd change the
subject. I hope ying yang sees it.
Because the decision *I* make is already known to be made *by another*, *I*
have the illusion of the choice, but *to the other* the choice is no longer
an actual choice. The fact that another even has perfect knowledge of what
decision *I* make is interference in and of itself, because *I* can NOT make
a choice that is different from *the other's* perfect knowledge.
More doppler related *****.
But the outcome of the decision is ALREADY known. It doesn't matter that
*I* haven't made the decision. The OUTCOME of the decision HAS BEEN KNOWN,
IS KNOWN, and HAS ALWAYS BEEN KNOWN.
Yes, to God, but not to you. Recognize the doppler effect.
You don't understand your false analogy, do you? The reason is this: GOD
*ALREADY* knows the outcome. God has known the outcome all along.
Therefore, our considerations and decisions, whether final or intermediate,
are ALREADY KNOWN to God. Therefore, they are *ALREADY* factual.
Still don't get it, do you. They are already "going to be factual" as
soon as you convert to action.
You would not elect to leave home this morning if you knew that you
are going to die in a car accident today. You don't know the error of
your actions coming your way. God does, and he doesn't interfere.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Semler" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
03 Sep 2003 12:58:14 PM |
|
|
At some point in the past, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> slavered, and
posted this:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:57:16 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
What part of either did you not understand, especially in light of
the presupposition in which I state that I can change my decision
an infinite number of times?
Fox News repeated again this morning that Bush2 inherited a
recession from komrade klinton.
Oookaaaaay, maybe your cut-and-past didn't work quite right. I
don't know what you are talking about, nor how you can possibly say
it has ANYTHING to do with my point/question, or even this
discussion.
You keep repeating your same nonsense, so I thought I'd change the
subject. I hope ying yang sees it.
Instead of changing the subject, why don't you exercise your brain and
address the original post?
Because the decision *I* make is already known to be made *by
another*, *I* have the illusion of the choice, but *to the other*
the choice is no longer an actual choice. The fact that another
even has perfect knowledge of what decision *I* make is interference
in and of itself, because *I* can NOT make a choice that is
different from *the other's* perfect knowledge.
More doppler related *****.
Why the hell do you call this doppler? It's not even related!
But the outcome of the decision is ALREADY known. It doesn't matter
that *I* haven't made the decision. The OUTCOME of the decision HAS
BEEN KNOWN, IS KNOWN, and HAS ALWAYS BEEN KNOWN.
Yes, to God, but not to you. Recognize the doppler effect.
The knowledge is therefore interference.
You don't understand your false analogy, do you? The reason is
this: GOD *ALREADY* knows the outcome. God has known the outcome all
along. Therefore, our considerations and decisions, whether final or
intermediate, are ALREADY KNOWN to God. Therefore, they are
*ALREADY* factual.
Still don't get it, do you. They are already "going to be factual" as
soon as you convert to action.
No. They already *ARE* factual *BEFORE* I convert it to action, because God
has perfect knowledge. Even though *I* have no knowledge of the facts does
not mean the facts do not exist.
You would not elect to leave home this morning if you knew that you
are going to die in a car accident today.
False analogy. Just because I have no knowledge of what will happen does
not mean the events do not happen.
You don't know the error of
your actions coming your way. God does, and he doesn't interfere.
Whatever. His knowledge is interference. Even if I don't know that I will
get into a car accident, does that change the fact that the car accident
will happen if God knows?
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
